Bruno’s remarks about imposing foreign values on Thailand have some merit, but only some. In principle this argument is solid enough, but it ignores the collective nature of mankind in terms of the basic principles that we should all enjoy and have a right to protection, etc.
While the comparison is stretched, it’s like your neighbor pounding his wife and children to a pulp and you keeping out of it because you don’t want to become involved.
Mankind is involved with one another. When we cite wrongness of interference in the plight of others, when we deny wrongdoing because if is not “our” wrongdoing, then we do a disservice to others. As well, the lese majeste laws are being abused and illegally enforced, over and aboover any western interpretation of the situation.
Should anyone interfere in this mad process on LM? Absolutely. We are not Joan of Arcs or Christs, but when we back off from standing up for what’s right – no matter national context – we fail to honor our fellow man.
Tatterdemalian: I accept whats natural to me (a poor silly westerner) might not be natural to you.
However, we are discussing Royalty in the 21st century, so what’s natural to them? http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/natural
PS. I’m the first to admit there are many better men (and women) than me – but thanks for the reminder anyway 🙂
Mary,
Lusk is a war zone? You’re not talking about the one in Wy. are you? I’ve been in bathrooms that sounded more like a war zone than Lusk does on the 4th of July. Besides, any place over in that region is no place for a lady.
Jin: I find it difficult to follow your line or argument. It seems that you are saying that hanging out with refined people should teach one to keep within the accepted bounds of polite discourse. Clearly, that is nonsense.
But it seems, from your knowing comments, that you have read Verisimilitudes. Where did you get it? This book is unavailable to most of us, unless we go to the Thai National Library. Maybe you can give readers the benefit of your reading? What is the plot? Is it really about Thailand? We already know that it can’t be much good as a novel as it hasn’t sold. But your views would be appreciated.
There is very little hope. All evidence, contrary to Democrat rethorics, points to the sad conclusion that things will be worse than under Thaksin very soon.
Read between the lines.
“Does that ‘kindness’ only come after submission & begging?”
My poor silly westerner, the ‘kindness’ you speak of is seldom even granted after submission and begging. The freedoms you so enjoy are not natural things, and no protest to the contrary will ever make them so. They are unnatural creations of mankind, sustained by the blood and sacrifice of better men than you, and you have enjoyed their shelter and fruit for far too long without understanding them at all.
Charles, Burma was a founding member of the Bandung Conference of Non-Aligned States. She never joined the Brirtish Commonwealth and shunned SEATO. China however will remain the most important neighbour as they share a very long border, but don’t for a moment think the generals are beholden to them or will concede territory. You ignore Burmese nationalism at your peril.
Religious persecution sadly is a modern phenomenon though chauvinism is like elsewhere as old as history. Even an absolute monarch like King Mindon was known for his charitable disposition to other creeds. Mandalay is full of mosques and churches from his reign.
Alignment issues are not confined to the state, crucial as you rightly said. Some of the minorities have been known to aspire to become virtually the 51st state of the US, understandably through their long association with foreign missionaries vis-a-vis state repression. It is counterproductive none the less. Having said that, it can never justify religious persecution which is no less harmful to peace and unity.
Surely these cases (Harry and Giles Ungpakorn) inflicts further damage to Thailand’s already torn standing in the international society, and I believe the new government realizes this. The usages of LM-laws don’t sit well with the modern image they are trying to project of themselves.
Even if the ideologists in the present government apparently jettisoned certain fundamental democratic traits (e.g. ‘one-man-one-vote’), they do seem sincere about implementing their version of democracy, ‘good governance’- policies, accountability, human rights, and so forth. (See for example BBC.com interview with FM Kasit Piromya).
So on freedom of speech and the Thai media, I’m just curious, doesn’t people here at NM harbor any hopes of Thailand returning towards a more open media environment (like in 1997-2001) now that Thaksin is out of the picture?
I mean, isn’t there a chance, even a likely possibility, that the new government’s policies, provided that they manage to stay in power, will generate an increasingly open environment for freedom of speech in Thailand, or am I being excessively optimistic here?
Dan, thanks again for your offer, but there is currently more than enough need for me right here where i am. Figuratively speaking, it is a war zone right here.
I imagine my previous comment wasn’t ‘high-quality’ enough to make it past the moderators. To reiterate, this kind of medieval censorship and population control belongs in the distant past. If Thailand wants to be taken seriously on the international stage they will need to revise their legislature to remove these cartoon-type laws. bosunj, Jin, you appear to be proof of being products of your environment. How can two apparently intelligent people support this activity? Your are defending the indefensible.
I have sympathy for Harry and his family, and the Australian Government should be doing much more to ensure his quick release.
After reading the infamous passage, I can only feel a great sense of injustice; clearly it is far less offensive than what you would hear many Thais gossip among each other.
Hi to Jim Taylor and thanks for the coverage of a protest almost ignored by the mainstream Thai media. I am a PhD student living in Thailand and am presently researching the use of music by the PAD and UDD. If anyone has knowledge or copies of lyrics that have been adapted to well known luuk tung songs by the UDD could they either post them here (Thai is fine) or email to [email protected].
Thanks in advance
James Mitchell
A Speakers’ Corner is an area where public speaking is allowed. The original and most noted is in the north-east corner of Hyde Park in London, England. Speakers there are allowed to speak as long as the police consider their speeches lawful. (Wikipedia)
I have read Harry’s book, and such a tiny amount of it refers to the Thai Monarchy (5 lines from 200 something pages). The whole story of his novel is about something else, totally unrelated to the Monarchy.
——-
Visit Hyde park (Speakers corner!!!) if you never did before. Say something against Queen – and you are going to be arrested by policeman.
Is that a democracy? – you are asking. Et pourtent UK is at heart of european democracy!
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Statement on Harry Nicolaides
Bruno’s remarks about imposing foreign values on Thailand have some merit, but only some. In principle this argument is solid enough, but it ignores the collective nature of mankind in terms of the basic principles that we should all enjoy and have a right to protection, etc.
While the comparison is stretched, it’s like your neighbor pounding his wife and children to a pulp and you keeping out of it because you don’t want to become involved.
Mankind is involved with one another. When we cite wrongness of interference in the plight of others, when we deny wrongdoing because if is not “our” wrongdoing, then we do a disservice to others. As well, the lese majeste laws are being abused and illegally enforced, over and aboover any western interpretation of the situation.
Should anyone interfere in this mad process on LM? Absolutely. We are not Joan of Arcs or Christs, but when we back off from standing up for what’s right – no matter national context – we fail to honor our fellow man.
Update on Harry Nicolaides
Tatterdemalian: I accept whats natural to me (a poor silly westerner) might not be natural to you.
However, we are discussing Royalty in the 21st century, so what’s natural to them?
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/natural
PS. I’m the first to admit there are many better men (and women) than me – but thanks for the reminder anyway 🙂
Pressure builds on Australian government
hes a convicted criminal
he broke tai law
now he serves sentence for it
to some this is sad
to others its JUSTICE
Volunteering to fight in Burma
Mary,
Lusk is a war zone? You’re not talking about the one in Wy. are you? I’ve been in bathrooms that sounded more like a war zone than Lusk does on the 4th of July. Besides, any place over in that region is no place for a lady.
Update on Harry Nicolaides
Jin: I find it difficult to follow your line or argument. It seems that you are saying that hanging out with refined people should teach one to keep within the accepted bounds of polite discourse. Clearly, that is nonsense.
But it seems, from your knowing comments, that you have read Verisimilitudes. Where did you get it? This book is unavailable to most of us, unless we go to the Thai National Library. Maybe you can give readers the benefit of your reading? What is the plot? Is it really about Thailand? We already know that it can’t be much good as a novel as it hasn’t sold. But your views would be appreciated.
Statement on Harry Nicolaides
Macca: Read this thread here at NM, which lists Democrat actions (rather than rhetoric): Defending the taboo – the royal response.
Statement on Harry Nicolaides
“Macca”:
There is very little hope. All evidence, contrary to Democrat rethorics, points to the sad conclusion that things will be worse than under Thaksin very soon.
Read between the lines.
Update on Harry Nicolaides
“Does that ‘kindness’ only come after submission & begging?”
My poor silly westerner, the ‘kindness’ you speak of is seldom even granted after submission and begging. The freedoms you so enjoy are not natural things, and no protest to the contrary will ever make them so. They are unnatural creations of mankind, sustained by the blood and sacrifice of better men than you, and you have enjoyed their shelter and fruit for far too long without understanding them at all.
Defending the taboo – the royal response
Democrats now claim there are 10,000 web sites (pages?) that offend the monarchy. Expect more censorship, charges and prosecutions.
Dave Everett and fighting for the KNLA
Charles, Burma was a founding member of the Bandung Conference of Non-Aligned States. She never joined the Brirtish Commonwealth and shunned SEATO. China however will remain the most important neighbour as they share a very long border, but don’t for a moment think the generals are beholden to them or will concede territory. You ignore Burmese nationalism at your peril.
Religious persecution sadly is a modern phenomenon though chauvinism is like elsewhere as old as history. Even an absolute monarch like King Mindon was known for his charitable disposition to other creeds. Mandalay is full of mosques and churches from his reign.
Alignment issues are not confined to the state, crucial as you rightly said. Some of the minorities have been known to aspire to become virtually the 51st state of the US, understandably through their long association with foreign missionaries vis-a-vis state repression. It is counterproductive none the less. Having said that, it can never justify religious persecution which is no less harmful to peace and unity.
Statement on Harry Nicolaides
Surely these cases (Harry and Giles Ungpakorn) inflicts further damage to Thailand’s already torn standing in the international society, and I believe the new government realizes this. The usages of LM-laws don’t sit well with the modern image they are trying to project of themselves.
Even if the ideologists in the present government apparently jettisoned certain fundamental democratic traits (e.g. ‘one-man-one-vote’), they do seem sincere about implementing their version of democracy, ‘good governance’- policies, accountability, human rights, and so forth. (See for example BBC.com interview with FM Kasit Piromya).
So on freedom of speech and the Thai media, I’m just curious, doesn’t people here at NM harbor any hopes of Thailand returning towards a more open media environment (like in 1997-2001) now that Thaksin is out of the picture?
I mean, isn’t there a chance, even a likely possibility, that the new government’s policies, provided that they manage to stay in power, will generate an increasingly open environment for freedom of speech in Thailand, or am I being excessively optimistic here?
Volunteering to fight in Burma
Dan, thanks again for your offer, but there is currently more than enough need for me right here where i am. Figuratively speaking, it is a war zone right here.
Update on Harry Nicolaides
I imagine my previous comment wasn’t ‘high-quality’ enough to make it past the moderators. To reiterate, this kind of medieval censorship and population control belongs in the distant past. If Thailand wants to be taken seriously on the international stage they will need to revise their legislature to remove these cartoon-type laws. bosunj, Jin, you appear to be proof of being products of your environment. How can two apparently intelligent people support this activity? Your are defending the indefensible.
Volunteering to fight in Burma
even camps are not safe now.
Volunteering to fight in Burma
IDP LIST December 2008 NEW from TBBC.org
2008-12-dec-map-tbbc-unhcr.pdf
Volunteering to fight in Burma
Free Burma-NO for the new project of constitution-video by NLD addressed to Noble Peace Prize Winner Lech Walesa
from 2.01. Rangoon
http://democracyforburma.wordpress.com/2009/01/20/vdo-free-burma-тАЮno-for-the-new-project-of-the-constitution-in-myanmar-rec201-rangoon/
Pressure builds on Australian government
I have sympathy for Harry and his family, and the Australian Government should be doing much more to ensure his quick release.
After reading the infamous passage, I can only feel a great sense of injustice; clearly it is far less offensive than what you would hear many Thais gossip among each other.
The red army at the gates of parliament
Hi to Jim Taylor and thanks for the coverage of a protest almost ignored by the mainstream Thai media. I am a PhD student living in Thailand and am presently researching the use of music by the PAD and UDD. If anyone has knowledge or copies of lyrics that have been adapted to well known luuk tung songs by the UDD could they either post them here (Thai is fine) or email to [email protected].
Thanks in advance
James Mitchell
Pressure builds on Australian government
A Speakers’ Corner is an area where public speaking is allowed. The original and most noted is in the north-east corner of Hyde Park in London, England. Speakers there are allowed to speak as long as the police consider their speeches lawful. (Wikipedia)
Statement on Harry Nicolaides
Thorn // Jan 20, 2009 at 10:45 am
I have read Harry’s book, and such a tiny amount of it refers to the Thai Monarchy (5 lines from 200 something pages). The whole story of his novel is about something else, totally unrelated to the Monarchy.
——-
Visit Hyde park (Speakers corner!!!) if you never did before. Say something against Queen – and you are going to be arrested by policeman.
Is that a democracy? – you are asking. Et pourtent UK is at heart of european democracy!