Whilst certainly not a supporter of Thaksin OR the old “Amata” power clique, I do have a sincere love of Thailand and its people due in part to my wife, life and work colleagues here.
“discontent comes from injustice” says Sunflower. How true. Let us ask of the one of the previous government’s victims of a war on..erm..something. A few thousand victims, I seem to remember. Injustice? Absolutely.
A name of a place, can’t quite remember, two words. One begins with ‘T’ and the other begins with ‘B’, both end in ‘i’. Four dozen people died. Injustice? Absolutely.
Yes, Thaksin was a breath of fresh air for many as he broke the old model of politics back at the beginning of the century. He did some good things to help poor people, surfing a wave of the world economy and TV (owned) popularity, but did too many things (half a dozen off the top of my head) to enrich himself at the expense of the country. A substantial number of previous supporters turned away from him as the number of corruption (strangely not human rights!) allegations began to mount.
Without further getting bogged down in details, I would like to offer the following:
In my humble opinion, a former PM did some good but ultimately spent his time enriching himself, his family and his friends. PM’s before him were often found to be corrupt. Is one worse than the other? No! There is no innocent party here.
At least the current incumbent appears to be qualified for the job. He is a privileged (!) man with a good education. Will he treat the press with disdain? Will he be a braggart who’ll hide from the press in a toilet? Will he be a submissive tool of the military who owns land in a national park? Will he declare war on something to sacrifice a few thousand lives for some kudos? Will he face thousands of mildly rabid (choose-a-color) demonstrators on the streets organised by a first/second/third/fourth-hand? Will the “Amata” be able to stop pulling strings? Will his inexperienced members of government prove more useless than the last government’s?
Only time will tell. At least give the guy a chance.
Mark Johnson: Judging from the author of the article, and after skimmed over it, I was not surprised at all that the article is very politically polarized.
The real pressure is not how Abhisit can cope the current situation, I believe how can the current government cope with the majority of the people (I suppose, but this might change after the Newin’s group defection) who voted against and are unhappy about the current government. It doesn’t mean that, in order to get support from the opposition of the Democrat Party (which are not always the rural poor, we should not imply stereotypical view here I believe), Abhisit immediately needs to resign or dissolve the parliament, but I just wonder what means and to what extent he is going to use those means to gain back supports from his political enemy (or his “companion’s” political enemy).
I suspect the tactic Abhisit will use is to revive the Thaksin’s infamous Populist policies (at least from the PAD’s world view) and relabel them to something that sound positive, like Social Welfare, or Social Contract. I am eager to see what is the reaction from the Abhisit’s rejectors.
I believe, we need to wait for some period to see the effect of the “Change” that Thai society is going to face.
By the way, I don’t mind Abhisit as the PM, because in parliamentary democratic system, the house majority are not always able to form the government (Japan during the 90’s, for example). However, I “DO” mind the method the Democrats used to become a government.
p.s. I mean offence to no one but I think we should put apart the hatred of the person or groups (by whatever reason we choose to), and need to carefully tackle down the issue by the issue itself. I’m not saying that I’m a neutralist (apparently, I’m very polarized), but I try to at least think neutrally.
Abhisit’s draft dodging is not rumours but a well known fact to the extent that Army chief Anupong himself had to admit it but conveniently asserted that the legal stature has expired (more than 20 years) and Mark cannot be punished but the STIGMA will follow him for the rest of his life. Of course Anupong is protecting him but the defense seems to be futile because Thais will judge Mark from the ethical, not the legal point. Sons of many rich Thai families are dodging military service by offering bribes but these boys do not intend to become PM. As for proof of Mark’s inaction, it is his responsibility to provide proof by showing to the whole world that he has “Saw Daw 49” document which shows that he did indeed take part in the “ken taharn” program.
A few years ago, when my son turned 16, his school asked him to join the “Raw Daw” program, which is a modified and simplified version of the real 2-year military service. He would put on his military uniform on Saturdays and go to an army camp to listen to “boring lectures on national defense and patriotism” for 3 years. At the end of the third year, the instructors would take him and others to a real army camp to stay for a week without taking showers where they were supposed to run up and down the hills with a wooden rifle. He was of course very tired but now a proud owner of a certificate issued by the Territorial Defense Dept. This is something that Mark should have done years ago.
Pisit was also a spokesperson for the coup-appointed Constitution Drafting Assembly. In that capacity, he gave an utterly boring PPP at the FCCT, turning up with a sizeable entourage. He is a typical member of the Bangkok technocratic elite, though he now seems to have emigrated to Chiang Mai.
2) You’re forgetting that the DP is indebted to the PAD for creating the chaos that stopped the government from doing anything until the court and the army could depose the legal government and manipulate selection of Abhisit. Debts must be paid, unless you owe them to allies of Thaksin.
I don’t understand how this is going to be resolved peacefully…the brutal repression of the “Reds” that they so clearly desire would only lead to a greater disintegration of the state through their deeply flawed visions that would surely be mismanaged. “The Manager” has prepped their egos and bolstered their ideology under a bubble of impunity to ensure that they are fully unaware of what successful management looks like when the consequences of their ignorance and violence are manifested.
The most important and clearest goal in this political haze is to neutralize and declaw the army, because only then can any real political reform be accompished.
This kind of opitmistic (wishful thinking) viewpoint is rather out of touch.
The political rift that was kept under the rug (by the newly appointed goverment and some local medias) did remain and ready to outburst another round of violence at any time.
Abhisit’s cabinet was manipulated by so many factions since the day one (military,PAD,Newin et al, ….)
The failure to bring the law-breaching,terrorist act etc to justice,inevitably disable rule of law.
Aren’t these enough to foresee the fate of Democrat led gov,”running out of time from the start”
Well,Kasit’s action as a FM will speak for itself as whether (the then PAD supporter)Kasit did really mean what he said on the PAD stage.
Let’s see whether Kasit will summon up troops and clash on Cambodia instead of diplomatic negotiation.
If not so,Kasit is no better than the rest of the corrupted politician(as he’s so keen to accused)who can lie anything to defame his opponents.
Is this the so-called New Politics of yours is all about?
Neal, it is ‘your comments’ that should be taken with a grain of salt.
You obviously have no experience or knowledge pertaining to Regiment (sasr), it’s health policies and so forth, let alone the man you defame. Further the government provides no help for operators during the transition from years of Military life to that of a civilian.
Your comments are not warranted, because if you had taken the time and had done the research – and the information is out there, if you really cared about the cause, you would have done perhaps a little more research about David, the regiment and the KNLA – You would not have made these remarks.
Davids contribution to the KNLA and the Karen people have been outstanding and indeed documented. Many Karen, Australians and operators have a lot of respect for David and his work for the KNLA and the Karen people.
It’s great your interested enough in this topic to comment just do you a little research before you run your mouth Neal.
Charles F. I have been following these notes and your exchanges with with David for some time I am happy to send you my copy of Shadow Warrior. Burma aside it’s a good read!
Dan.
P.S. Just remember this, the dark side of life is that a small few simply have to carry out the act of war, this has been the case since the dawn of time. Fact is David put his life on the line for the Karen people on more than one occasion (Would you, could you, Neal? – The answer is no) and provided training and services that KNLA that were and still are in great need of, people with this skill set are on a global level, very hard to come by. Certain governments should be providing the KNLA with the same training and services that David a single human being, provided for not one dime.
I think if we do a content analysis of the talks by the PAD leaders and UDD leaders, we’d find that the PAD tends to use more inflammatory rhetoric that incites people to hatred and possible violence. UDD rhetoric seems gentle and reasonable by comparison (except for the parts extolling the virtues of Thaksin). Also, the PAD guards are hired thugs who fancy themselves warriors, whereas the UDD doesn’t seem to have hired muscle, the closest thing being motorcycle taxi drivers.
Discontent comes from injustice. Thailand’s growing crisis of governability because Abhisit Vejjajiva is illegitimate.
The interference of Prem Tinsulanond (Chairman of the Privy Council), Anupong Paochinda (Army Chief) in arranging Abhisit Vejjajiva to power has destroyed the core of democratic principle. Throughout Thai political history, majority of Thai have been fighting for democracy. They feel democracy has been robbed from them when illegitimate Abhisit became PM. Because of this cheating, majority of Thai is against Abhisit.
The lower rank soldiers voted against Abhisit’s party and for Thaksin’s party. The split between Anupong and majority of soldiers is clear. Abhisit was unable to enter the parliament, he went to the army for help. The lower rank soldiers shouted, “We don’t like terrorists.”
Private sectors are against his choice of ministers saying that Thailand cannot afford amateur during the global slowdown. The ministers from his coalition parties are inexperience, incapable, and with serious history of corruption.
Illegitimate Abhisit Vejjajiva should step down before he further destroys Thailand.
This looks like another boring recitation of PAD talking points; not surprising considering the source is a former Democrat politician and Bangkok Bank official.
This view of the PAD is far closer to how they want to be perceived than what they are and appears very na├пve when compared to more sophisticated views in international media.
The PAD (in the yellow shirts) is comprised of middleclass citizens, urban elites, academics, state union leaders and a broader coalition of those against Thaksin.
I would lump this article together with the Foreign Ministry’s letter to the Economist as examples of how the old elite’s cloistered lives don’t allow them deviate in the slightest way from the storyline their propagandists have handed them.
the real challenge, as usual, is to predict the future and work backwards to an optimum solution
for those that believe that the democracy genie is out of its bottle in Thailand and even Prem wont be able to put it back this time, the optimum is for the TRT/PPP/PT government to be in charge and let free to implement rescue for the Thai economy… and the only highly qualified and experienced leader should be brought back to direct the effort in person
for the reactionary that believe that a new leader will be able to continue to hold Thailand together in its traditional rule by rich families then muddling on with inept weak democratic rule may seem like a reasonable price to pay
In my opinion, PAD’s action is unacceptable, unexcusable and therefore undefendable. But I’m just a commoner. Though I don’t personally know Mr Medhi, I can guess that he’s one of those upper-class Sakdina (same as Mr Kasit). The Sakdinas think PAD’s actions are justifiable. Anything for the royal and elitists is acceptible, even if it’s “a bit” illegal (eg. closing the airport). They think they have special privileges. Sadly, from a Sakdina’s viewpoint, PAD was right.
I’m 100% Thai and I think Mr Vasit himself should seek medical advice. The term ‘Thainess’ he was using is probably a result of the ‘brainwashing’ that has been happenning for 50-60 yrs. In my opinion, no institution (no matter how good or bad) should be exempted from public investigation. A good institution should listen to criticism. It should be able to defend itself. Mr Vasit’s (and others’) attempt to defend the royal is making the royal look more dubious.
sarap,
1) if two terrorists fight that doesn’t mean one of them stops being a terrorist, it just means two terrorists are fighting.
2) Kasit’s unsuitibility is seperate from whether he was right or not – he has a tarnished foreign image and smart administrations just dont put that sort of person as a FM. Surely the Democrats can find a competent person who ISN’T associated with the PAD.
As someone who has done a lot of research on but no research in the country, it still feels like this law will be used against the people who need it the most.
It is likely that any NGO calling for change (or otherwise criticizing the current regime) will end up feeling the negative affects of this new law, while other organizations entrenched in patron-client networks will probably be let off the hook.
The law is an excellent idea, but it will be enforced under less then excellent circumstances.
poor Sarap- reading too much from the Manager (phujatkaan) on line and the brainwashing rubbish…actually I was with the Reds today at Parliament and yesterday at Sanam Luang. Funny thing is the police whom I spoke said they were not scared as they were with PAD thugs. Why is that?
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Light at the end of the tunnel? Red or yellow?
Whilst certainly not a supporter of Thaksin OR the old “Amata” power clique, I do have a sincere love of Thailand and its people due in part to my wife, life and work colleagues here.
“discontent comes from injustice” says Sunflower. How true. Let us ask of the one of the previous government’s victims of a war on..erm..something. A few thousand victims, I seem to remember. Injustice? Absolutely.
A name of a place, can’t quite remember, two words. One begins with ‘T’ and the other begins with ‘B’, both end in ‘i’. Four dozen people died. Injustice? Absolutely.
Yes, Thaksin was a breath of fresh air for many as he broke the old model of politics back at the beginning of the century. He did some good things to help poor people, surfing a wave of the world economy and TV (owned) popularity, but did too many things (half a dozen off the top of my head) to enrich himself at the expense of the country. A substantial number of previous supporters turned away from him as the number of corruption (strangely not human rights!) allegations began to mount.
Without further getting bogged down in details, I would like to offer the following:
In my humble opinion, a former PM did some good but ultimately spent his time enriching himself, his family and his friends. PM’s before him were often found to be corrupt. Is one worse than the other? No! There is no innocent party here.
At least the current incumbent appears to be qualified for the job. He is a privileged (!) man with a good education. Will he treat the press with disdain? Will he be a braggart who’ll hide from the press in a toilet? Will he be a submissive tool of the military who owns land in a national park? Will he declare war on something to sacrifice a few thousand lives for some kudos? Will he face thousands of mildly rabid (choose-a-color) demonstrators on the streets organised by a first/second/third/fourth-hand? Will the “Amata” be able to stop pulling strings? Will his inexperienced members of government prove more useless than the last government’s?
Only time will tell. At least give the guy a chance.
Light at the end of the tunnel? Red or yellow?
Mark Johnson: Judging from the author of the article, and after skimmed over it, I was not surprised at all that the article is very politically polarized.
The real pressure is not how Abhisit can cope the current situation, I believe how can the current government cope with the majority of the people (I suppose, but this might change after the Newin’s group defection) who voted against and are unhappy about the current government. It doesn’t mean that, in order to get support from the opposition of the Democrat Party (which are not always the rural poor, we should not imply stereotypical view here I believe), Abhisit immediately needs to resign or dissolve the parliament, but I just wonder what means and to what extent he is going to use those means to gain back supports from his political enemy (or his “companion’s” political enemy).
I suspect the tactic Abhisit will use is to revive the Thaksin’s infamous Populist policies (at least from the PAD’s world view) and relabel them to something that sound positive, like Social Welfare, or Social Contract. I am eager to see what is the reaction from the Abhisit’s rejectors.
I believe, we need to wait for some period to see the effect of the “Change” that Thai society is going to face.
By the way, I don’t mind Abhisit as the PM, because in parliamentary democratic system, the house majority are not always able to form the government (Japan during the 90’s, for example). However, I “DO” mind the method the Democrats used to become a government.
p.s. I mean offence to no one but I think we should put apart the hatred of the person or groups (by whatever reason we choose to), and need to carefully tackle down the issue by the issue itself. I’m not saying that I’m a neutralist (apparently, I’m very polarized), but I try to at least think neutrally.
Ji Ungpakorn on Thailand’s second coup
Abhisit’s draft dodging is not rumours but a well known fact to the extent that Army chief Anupong himself had to admit it but conveniently asserted that the legal stature has expired (more than 20 years) and Mark cannot be punished but the STIGMA will follow him for the rest of his life. Of course Anupong is protecting him but the defense seems to be futile because Thais will judge Mark from the ethical, not the legal point. Sons of many rich Thai families are dodging military service by offering bribes but these boys do not intend to become PM. As for proof of Mark’s inaction, it is his responsibility to provide proof by showing to the whole world that he has “Saw Daw 49” document which shows that he did indeed take part in the “ken taharn” program.
A few years ago, when my son turned 16, his school asked him to join the “Raw Daw” program, which is a modified and simplified version of the real 2-year military service. He would put on his military uniform on Saturdays and go to an army camp to listen to “boring lectures on national defense and patriotism” for 3 years. At the end of the third year, the instructors would take him and others to a real army camp to stay for a week without taking showers where they were supposed to run up and down the hills with a wooden rifle. He was of course very tired but now a proud owner of a certificate issued by the Territorial Defense Dept. This is something that Mark should have done years ago.
Light at the end of the tunnel? Red or yellow?
Pisit was also a spokesperson for the coup-appointed Constitution Drafting Assembly. In that capacity, he gave an utterly boring PPP at the FCCT, turning up with a sizeable entourage. He is a typical member of the Bangkok technocratic elite, though he now seems to have emigrated to Chiang Mai.
Defending the taboo – the royal response
And the piece in the LA Times is just plain silly. It reads like it came straight from the Palace Press Office.
Defending PAD defender
GNZ,
1) Right on, brother!
2) You’re forgetting that the DP is indebted to the PAD for creating the chaos that stopped the government from doing anything until the court and the army could depose the legal government and manipulate selection of Abhisit. Debts must be paid, unless you owe them to allies of Thaksin.
Light at the end of the tunnel? Red or yellow?
I don’t understand how this is going to be resolved peacefully…the brutal repression of the “Reds” that they so clearly desire would only lead to a greater disintegration of the state through their deeply flawed visions that would surely be mismanaged. “The Manager” has prepped their egos and bolstered their ideology under a bubble of impunity to ensure that they are fully unaware of what successful management looks like when the consequences of their ignorance and violence are manifested.
The most important and clearest goal in this political haze is to neutralize and declaw the army, because only then can any real political reform be accompished.
Light at the end of the tunnel? Red or yellow?
This kind of opitmistic (wishful thinking) viewpoint is rather out of touch.
The political rift that was kept under the rug (by the newly appointed goverment and some local medias) did remain and ready to outburst another round of violence at any time.
Abhisit’s cabinet was manipulated by so many factions since the day one (military,PAD,Newin et al, ….)
The failure to bring the law-breaching,terrorist act etc to justice,inevitably disable rule of law.
Aren’t these enough to foresee the fate of Democrat led gov,”running out of time from the start”
Defending PAD defender
Well,Kasit’s action as a FM will speak for itself as whether (the then PAD supporter)Kasit did really mean what he said on the PAD stage.
Let’s see whether Kasit will summon up troops and clash on Cambodia instead of diplomatic negotiation.
If not so,Kasit is no better than the rest of the corrupted politician(as he’s so keen to accused)who can lie anything to defame his opponents.
Is this the so-called New Politics of yours is all about?
Sad but true!
Dave Everett and fighting for the KNLA
Neal, it is ‘your comments’ that should be taken with a grain of salt.
You obviously have no experience or knowledge pertaining to Regiment (sasr), it’s health policies and so forth, let alone the man you defame. Further the government provides no help for operators during the transition from years of Military life to that of a civilian.
Your comments are not warranted, because if you had taken the time and had done the research – and the information is out there, if you really cared about the cause, you would have done perhaps a little more research about David, the regiment and the KNLA – You would not have made these remarks.
Davids contribution to the KNLA and the Karen people have been outstanding and indeed documented. Many Karen, Australians and operators have a lot of respect for David and his work for the KNLA and the Karen people.
It’s great your interested enough in this topic to comment just do you a little research before you run your mouth Neal.
Charles F. I have been following these notes and your exchanges with with David for some time I am happy to send you my copy of Shadow Warrior. Burma aside it’s a good read!
Dan.
P.S. Just remember this, the dark side of life is that a small few simply have to carry out the act of war, this has been the case since the dawn of time. Fact is David put his life on the line for the Karen people on more than one occasion (Would you, could you, Neal? – The answer is no) and provided training and services that KNLA that were and still are in great need of, people with this skill set are on a global level, very hard to come by. Certain governments should be providing the KNLA with the same training and services that David a single human being, provided for not one dime.
Defending PAD defender
Jim Taylor:
I think if we do a content analysis of the talks by the PAD leaders and UDD leaders, we’d find that the PAD tends to use more inflammatory rhetoric that incites people to hatred and possible violence. UDD rhetoric seems gentle and reasonable by comparison (except for the parts extolling the virtues of Thaksin). Also, the PAD guards are hired thugs who fancy themselves warriors, whereas the UDD doesn’t seem to have hired muscle, the closest thing being motorcycle taxi drivers.
Light at the end of the tunnel? Red or yellow?
Discontent comes from injustice. Thailand’s growing crisis of governability because Abhisit Vejjajiva is illegitimate.
The interference of Prem Tinsulanond (Chairman of the Privy Council), Anupong Paochinda (Army Chief) in arranging Abhisit Vejjajiva to power has destroyed the core of democratic principle. Throughout Thai political history, majority of Thai have been fighting for democracy. They feel democracy has been robbed from them when illegitimate Abhisit became PM. Because of this cheating, majority of Thai is against Abhisit.
The lower rank soldiers voted against Abhisit’s party and for Thaksin’s party. The split between Anupong and majority of soldiers is clear. Abhisit was unable to enter the parliament, he went to the army for help. The lower rank soldiers shouted, “We don’t like terrorists.”
Private sectors are against his choice of ministers saying that Thailand cannot afford amateur during the global slowdown. The ministers from his coalition parties are inexperience, incapable, and with serious history of corruption.
Illegitimate Abhisit Vejjajiva should step down before he further destroys Thailand.
Light at the end of the tunnel? Red or yellow?
This looks like another boring recitation of PAD talking points; not surprising considering the source is a former Democrat politician and Bangkok Bank official.
This view of the PAD is far closer to how they want to be perceived than what they are and appears very na├пve when compared to more sophisticated views in international media.
The PAD (in the yellow shirts) is comprised of middleclass citizens, urban elites, academics, state union leaders and a broader coalition of those against Thaksin.
I would lump this article together with the Foreign Ministry’s letter to the Economist as examples of how the old elite’s cloistered lives don’t allow them deviate in the slightest way from the storyline their propagandists have handed them.
Is there anything at all new in this article? No.
Light at the end of the tunnel? Red or yellow?
the real challenge, as usual, is to predict the future and work backwards to an optimum solution
for those that believe that the democracy genie is out of its bottle in Thailand and even Prem wont be able to put it back this time, the optimum is for the TRT/PPP/PT government to be in charge and let free to implement rescue for the Thai economy… and the only highly qualified and experienced leader should be brought back to direct the effort in person
for the reactionary that believe that a new leader will be able to continue to hold Thailand together in its traditional rule by rich families then muddling on with inept weak democratic rule may seem like a reasonable price to pay
Defending PAD defender
In my opinion, PAD’s action is unacceptable, unexcusable and therefore undefendable. But I’m just a commoner. Though I don’t personally know Mr Medhi, I can guess that he’s one of those upper-class Sakdina (same as Mr Kasit). The Sakdinas think PAD’s actions are justifiable. Anything for the royal and elitists is acceptible, even if it’s “a bit” illegal (eg. closing the airport). They think they have special privileges. Sadly, from a Sakdina’s viewpoint, PAD was right.
Defending the taboo – the royal response
I’m 100% Thai and I think Mr Vasit himself should seek medical advice. The term ‘Thainess’ he was using is probably a result of the ‘brainwashing’ that has been happenning for 50-60 yrs. In my opinion, no institution (no matter how good or bad) should be exempted from public investigation. A good institution should listen to criticism. It should be able to defend itself. Mr Vasit’s (and others’) attempt to defend the royal is making the royal look more dubious.
Defending PAD defender
sarap,
1) if two terrorists fight that doesn’t mean one of them stops being a terrorist, it just means two terrorists are fighting.
2) Kasit’s unsuitibility is seperate from whether he was right or not – he has a tarnished foreign image and smart administrations just dont put that sort of person as a FM. Surely the Democrats can find a competent person who ISN’T associated with the PAD.
Cambodia’s four letter word: NGOs
As someone who has done a lot of research on but no research in the country, it still feels like this law will be used against the people who need it the most.
It is likely that any NGO calling for change (or otherwise criticizing the current regime) will end up feeling the negative affects of this new law, while other organizations entrenched in patron-client networks will probably be let off the hook.
The law is an excellent idea, but it will be enforced under less then excellent circumstances.
Defending PAD defender
poor Sarap- reading too much from the Manager (phujatkaan) on line and the brainwashing rubbish…actually I was with the Reds today at Parliament and yesterday at Sanam Luang. Funny thing is the police whom I spoke said they were not scared as they were with PAD thugs. Why is that?
Defending PAD defender
Holistic reason is a tool of dastardly neo-colonialists. Use it and be damned!