i would also like to point out that the army’s vast political monopolies have been as much a mainstay as the monarchy. compounded by their 80 years runnning monopoly on mass coercion the exercise fluctuating yet constant political manipulation, it seems natural to me that they should be considered the most dominant force in society. perhaps the monarchy’s direct and overt involvement in this is also a smokescreen for the military to maintain their elevated role.
i also believe that any real reform of thai society and politics would involve some sort of new and explicitly defined parameter for the military’s role in politics and society in order to give even a fighting Chance to the development of democratic institutions and independent civil administration and judiciary.
The extraordinary cremation ceremony aroused my curiosity and I wiki-ed and read thehistory of the royal family and the last five Chakri kings. It was very interesting reading and I highly recommend wikiview unadulterated and frank records of events and the personalities woven into thai history
in short, there is a succession struggle within the palace walls.
Without the walls, are the people taking sides !!!!
Our colonial masters English used to hang captured Burmese rebels, whether they were peasants or royalty, by neck till death during Burma’s long years of slavery under so-called very civilized British.
The children and grand children of those Burmese patriots are now in the army running Burma and they will definitely appreciate Mr Charles F.’s advance warning about their eventual demise, ha ha.
Even the mighty British Empire where sun never set couldn’t finish their ancestors off the land like they brutally did to Native Americans and Aboriginals, and Burmese will now laugh at your empty threats. They have been through too many brutal wars since Pagan 2000 years ago while building their nation.
External threats from Burmese-haters like yours and invasion calls and sanctions will just push Burmese majority deeper into the generals’ iron fists. Patriotism and extreme nationalism could be exploited even in USA as the events after 9/11 highlighted.
Lets face it: The road towards a republic hardly ever was an easy way, especialy if the monarchy was rather absolutist and a centre of vested economic interests. Commonly it took a major crisis that showed the deficits, or better irrationality which is always an integral part of monarchic rule. In Thailand we had such a situation in the early 30’s of the last century. As Marx noted: History tends to repeat itself.
Based on this things they write on their website, I would guess the average PAD person would tell you that it is the fault of the AoT, police, and PM that have caused this situation. It cannot be the PAD’s fault because they are good and pure and can do nothing wrong.
I hate those people so much right now. Please let me go home and so I can never come back!
“many” is a bit hard to quantify… and of course the PAD has now lost a “lot” that were somewhat persuaded by the PAD, profoundly negative, anti-Thaksin position… so lets agree that “many” minus “lot” still support the PAD
meanwhile it seems to me that we have 4 shades of grey groups:
1. those that believe Thailand should be governed by a fully elected parliament and executive (prime minister and cabinet)
2. those that believe Thailand should be governed by a few self-selected families
3. those that imagine its might be possible to have a mix of the two
(but we actually know the self-selected families would make sure they dominate)
4. those that have not engaged and at the moment dont really care what government is in place
the options 2, 3 and 4 all mean that ordinary Thai people willbe disenfranchised (they wont be able to vote or their vote will not be taken into account)
I think the PAD leadership are working (paid) for the self-selected families and between them are trying to work out what they might be able to achieve in the continuum of 2 and 3.
the current government and its supporters are working to return to 1. under a constitution preferably based on the 1997 version (the only democratic constituiton Thailand had created)
and, I think the majority are in group 1 and I reckon its a good tune..
I just met a young guy from Pattaya (at the red rally)… he said he was offered B5,000 per day by the PAD and they would supply weapons for him to work as a guard. “Most” of his friends singned up, he thinks Thaksin was good for the country and has been listening to Truth Today and came from Pataya to the rally.
and Suechana Sudcharoen of Phra Nakhon district ordered 11 schools closed today because the red rally was on last night… I would be very interested in his explanation:
– excessive caution and quite unwarranted at the least?
– perhaps he is colour blind and thinks the reds are like the yellows and the reds would use the kids as hostages/shields?
– he is concerned that the yellows might arrive late, on Monday and cause trouble?
– he is running for office and wants to get the kids vote?
David Brown: Quote “like… should we invade Iraq… 100 for, 99 against… ok lets go and do it!
sort of brutal but how else do you do it?”
Well, the following may not be so relevant to this thread but I really want to say something abt what u said above.
This is not a good example at all . This is not democracy but tyranny of the majority. And u are talking abt war , about invasion of another country.. and if democracy leads to such a simplistic resolution, I’d better not have it.
@ David Brown – “just to show the anti-democratic groups how much ordinary people of Thailand disapprove of the PAD and their backers”
Once again we have an extremist viewpoint. You’re either right or you’re wrong – right? No, wrong.
The fact is that many ordinary people approve of the PAD, many and not just Bangkok’s urban elite but people in the provinces too.
The issue, the very sad and dangerous issue is that Thailand is polarized like never before; and I believe what the vast majority of the “ordinary people of Thailand” want is for us to get back to the middle of the road – rather than the shrill rhetoric, of fascist, communist and the like. Red shirts, yellow shirts and joining either side simply increases the polarization.
It is time to stop this and come back to talking, not shouting, at each other and where impasse is reached to agree to disagree. I have seen many posts where Ferang (I am one btw who’s been here 20 years) say, send the police in and if they happen to kill a bunch of people so what – this is a cruel and childish viewpoint.
There is violence on both sides – that is clear. There are good points on both sides. there are bad points on both sides.
It is time for the silent majority to take back the middle ground and insist that the extremist factions are sidelined.
By joining the Truth Today protest you are helping to polarize the country further, (by the way the theme tune for the truth today is “Battle Hymn of the Republic – last used in the American Civil war), not a good thing.
fundamentally democracy is all about the numbers, in any vote, election or committee or cabinet, etc… if a vote is called the majority win
of course, yes, we hope that people do try to work with each other and arrive at compromises but in the interests of efficiency (time) or in the event of black and white decisions and a vote is called… the winner gets it, the loser has to hold his fire for another battle…
like… should we invade Iraq… 100 for, 99 against… ok lets go and do it!
sort of brutal but how else do you do it?
Thaksin did make changes in the economic changes… but only in terms of redistribution of wealth…
There is a lot of discussion about the death of capitalism and adoption of at least semi-socialism, in South America and now especially at this time of crisis… I side note the pouring of tax money to bailout of financial institutions in the US is not at all like free market capitalism… but it doesnt meet socialist criteria either…
The economic system is really important but I think not as fundamental as:
every move seems like a strategic move of a commander or such would do. I can see no coherent reason where one event explains another in Thai news. The PAD are giving the reasons, but it is not logical.
Somchai + Samak = Somsak?
Sondhi won’t care, he’s a nihilist pursuing a scorched earth policy, a deluded cult leader and proto-fascist. There has never been a political agenda of PAD beyond their anti-Thaksin meme, which is Sondhis own personal, selfish agenda. Everything else is secondary or non-existent, regardless of Thailand fast becoming a failed state.
Please correct my last post: upon dissolution of the House, a new election must be held at 45 days, and not more than 60 days, from the date of dissolution. (2007 Constitution, sec. 108.)
Judicial dissolution of a party does not automatically result in dissolution of the house. Every member of a dissolved party has 60 days to join another party without losing his membership in the house. (2007 Constitution, sec. 106.)
I was thinking that the Burmese junta had done a DOS on New Mandala, but was assured by Mr. Farrelly that it was a server problem.
And here I was, thinking that New Mandala had “arrived”.
Ralph Kramden — The 90-day rule that applied in 2006 doesn’t apply under the new constitution. Members of parliament who become party-less due to a dissolution can join a new party within 30 days and be eligible to run in the election (if they just quit their party, the 90-day rule applies). An election cannot be called sooner than 30 days (and not more than 45 days). So a quick election can’t be used to cut ex-PPP members out of the election.
An interesting loophole: some PPP members have been quitting in anticipation of dissolution. Samak just sent his resignation letter from his hospital bed in the U.S. They will apparently fall under the 90-day rule, since they resigned and were not forced out by a judicial dissolution.
The human brain seems to work best in black-and-white alternatives. Then everything seems sooo clear. But maybe there are all kind of shades.
I am astounded how many people think that democracy is about voting and then the majority dictating to the minority. True democracy means in my view that no group is excluded and that a system is set up which can be accepted by everybody. Without this basic understanding, voting becomes meaningless. Democracy is not about the majority deciding who is paying for lunch. Why the majority is not paying for their own lunch?
I am for an economic system which distributes the proceeds and resources in a fair way. Therefore I am very strongly against the greed capitalism. But in my opinion the economic system should be changed in the first place. Does anyone really believe that Thaksin would like to do that. I do not think so.
And if we do not know how to solve a problem – for instance finding a fair economic system which transcends capitalism and socialism, then maybe we should spend some resources and time to study these questions in earnest.
Of course we have to go on with our daily lifes. Therefore we may have to find some temporary solutions to the mess we are in in Thailand and also internationally (financial system crisis). But also these should not be black-and-white hammer solutions.
Ralph, I agree with you that there are a number of international journos doing a good job – it’s just that by and large, the Australian audience isn’t hearing them.
I’m getting a little tired of fielding questions from friends and family who are misinformed by the pathetic coverage from the ABC, SBS (via the Al Jazeera correspondent), and the popular Murdoch press which dominates the town where I live. And right now, of course, it’s all about getting ‘Aussies’ out of Thailand. Nothing else really matters, apparently.
BTW, the ‘judicial coup’ theory is looking a good bet right at the moment.
Quote: “The only solution is the ‘73, ‘76, ‘92 solution: the people hit the streets. No, I don’t believe ‘the people’ are on the streets yet, but if they do, there’ll be blood,”
I don’t think this is a good suggestion, letting ordinary people die in the streets so that the ‘bigger boys'(whoever they are0 can reap the benefits.
i think the UN and the international community should put a pressure on the PAD (i.e. strongly condemn the PAD leaders’ actions) AND provide help for the Thai government to remove the PAD protestors (at the airports) proficiently and effectively with the priority of causing as little bloodshed as possible, then put all those leaders in jail without bail, also detain all violent followers. Most Thai people are now against the PAD because they fear airport closure can make the economy collapse.. so I don’t think anyone will protests if PAD+followers are arrested and charged with terrorist attempt.
If the UN/inter. community cannot provide commando unit help, perhaps they should pressure the Thai military/generals to take action and help the government rid the airports of the PAD (without causing loss of lives).
I guess it would be better to shut up and ignore the cacophony here, but the simplistic dismissal of PAD and its anti-Thaksin stance is disturbing to the nth degree.
Thaksin is not THE problem per se, but a Thaksin-like M.O. is, and that is what has been haunting Thailand for decades. Claims that the PAD is forcing members to be martyrs, that the PAD is only looking for violence, that the PAD is wrong and violent and harmful to the nation’s interests,…well, this all sounds like reactionary pro-government knee-jerking at best. At worst, it is a huge misunderstanding of what is going on in the country and overlooking the real issues that the so-called civil society everyone is wont to retain is in fact not so civil as oppressive.
And saying that I, the PAD, PAD supporters, etc., are advocating or supporting violence is sheer nonsense.
I said it before and will say it again, a lot of factors are at work in the current standoff. The police, army and others just don’t want to be blamed for damaging the country’s image – they could not care less about the country’s welfare per se. All they want is personal gratification and the right to plunder so they can help their friends. those in the northeast who support the TRT and PPP and other minions of madness are ignorant and unfortunate, just as those are who voted for Bush the second time around. Call it democracy if you will, but it is not.
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End of the royal taboo?
i would also like to point out that the army’s vast political monopolies have been as much a mainstay as the monarchy. compounded by their 80 years runnning monopoly on mass coercion the exercise fluctuating yet constant political manipulation, it seems natural to me that they should be considered the most dominant force in society. perhaps the monarchy’s direct and overt involvement in this is also a smokescreen for the military to maintain their elevated role.
i also believe that any real reform of thai society and politics would involve some sort of new and explicitly defined parameter for the military’s role in politics and society in order to give even a fighting Chance to the development of democratic institutions and independent civil administration and judiciary.
End of the royal taboo?
The extraordinary cremation ceremony aroused my curiosity and I wiki-ed and read thehistory of the royal family and the last five Chakri kings. It was very interesting reading and I highly recommend wikiview unadulterated and frank records of events and the personalities woven into thai history
in short, there is a succession struggle within the palace walls.
Without the walls, are the people taking sides !!!!
Help
Our colonial masters English used to hang captured Burmese rebels, whether they were peasants or royalty, by neck till death during Burma’s long years of slavery under so-called very civilized British.
The children and grand children of those Burmese patriots are now in the army running Burma and they will definitely appreciate Mr Charles F.’s advance warning about their eventual demise, ha ha.
Even the mighty British Empire where sun never set couldn’t finish their ancestors off the land like they brutally did to Native Americans and Aboriginals, and Burmese will now laugh at your empty threats. They have been through too many brutal wars since Pagan 2000 years ago while building their nation.
External threats from Burmese-haters like yours and invasion calls and sanctions will just push Burmese majority deeper into the generals’ iron fists. Patriotism and extreme nationalism could be exploited even in USA as the events after 9/11 highlighted.
End of the royal taboo?
Lets face it: The road towards a republic hardly ever was an easy way, especialy if the monarchy was rather absolutist and a centre of vested economic interests. Commonly it took a major crisis that showed the deficits, or better irrationality which is always an integral part of monarchic rule. In Thailand we had such a situation in the early 30’s of the last century. As Marx noted: History tends to repeat itself.
Grade 4 travel advisory…for Bangkok
Based on this things they write on their website, I would guess the average PAD person would tell you that it is the fault of the AoT, police, and PM that have caused this situation. It cannot be the PAD’s fault because they are good and pure and can do nothing wrong.
I hate those people so much right now. Please let me go home and so I can never come back!
Conflict in Bangkok: Open thread
BKKOptimist…
“many” is a bit hard to quantify… and of course the PAD has now lost a “lot” that were somewhat persuaded by the PAD, profoundly negative, anti-Thaksin position… so lets agree that “many” minus “lot” still support the PAD
meanwhile it seems to me that we have 4 shades of grey groups:
1. those that believe Thailand should be governed by a fully elected parliament and executive (prime minister and cabinet)
2. those that believe Thailand should be governed by a few self-selected families
3. those that imagine its might be possible to have a mix of the two
(but we actually know the self-selected families would make sure they dominate)
4. those that have not engaged and at the moment dont really care what government is in place
the options 2, 3 and 4 all mean that ordinary Thai people willbe disenfranchised (they wont be able to vote or their vote will not be taken into account)
I think the PAD leadership are working (paid) for the self-selected families and between them are trying to work out what they might be able to achieve in the continuum of 2 and 3.
the current government and its supporters are working to return to 1. under a constitution preferably based on the 1997 version (the only democratic constituiton Thailand had created)
and, I think the majority are in group 1 and I reckon its a good tune..
I just met a young guy from Pattaya (at the red rally)… he said he was offered B5,000 per day by the PAD and they would supply weapons for him to work as a guard. “Most” of his friends singned up, he thinks Thaksin was good for the country and has been listening to Truth Today and came from Pataya to the rally.
and Suechana Sudcharoen of Phra Nakhon district ordered 11 schools closed today because the red rally was on last night… I would be very interested in his explanation:
– excessive caution and quite unwarranted at the least?
– perhaps he is colour blind and thinks the reds are like the yellows and the reds would use the kids as hostages/shields?
– he is concerned that the yellows might arrive late, on Monday and cause trouble?
– he is running for office and wants to get the kids vote?
New Mandala in The Age
David Brown: Quote “like… should we invade Iraq… 100 for, 99 against… ok lets go and do it!
sort of brutal but how else do you do it?”
Well, the following may not be so relevant to this thread but I really want to say something abt what u said above.
This is not a good example at all . This is not democracy but tyranny of the majority. And u are talking abt war , about invasion of another country.. and if democracy leads to such a simplistic resolution, I’d better not have it.
Conflict in Bangkok: Open thread
@ David Brown – “just to show the anti-democratic groups how much ordinary people of Thailand disapprove of the PAD and their backers”
Once again we have an extremist viewpoint. You’re either right or you’re wrong – right? No, wrong.
The fact is that many ordinary people approve of the PAD, many and not just Bangkok’s urban elite but people in the provinces too.
The issue, the very sad and dangerous issue is that Thailand is polarized like never before; and I believe what the vast majority of the “ordinary people of Thailand” want is for us to get back to the middle of the road – rather than the shrill rhetoric, of fascist, communist and the like. Red shirts, yellow shirts and joining either side simply increases the polarization.
It is time to stop this and come back to talking, not shouting, at each other and where impasse is reached to agree to disagree. I have seen many posts where Ferang (I am one btw who’s been here 20 years) say, send the police in and if they happen to kill a bunch of people so what – this is a cruel and childish viewpoint.
There is violence on both sides – that is clear. There are good points on both sides. there are bad points on both sides.
It is time for the silent majority to take back the middle ground and insist that the extremist factions are sidelined.
By joining the Truth Today protest you are helping to polarize the country further, (by the way the theme tune for the truth today is “Battle Hymn of the Republic – last used in the American Civil war), not a good thing.
Peace brother.
New Mandala in The Age
hi Karl,
fundamentally democracy is all about the numbers, in any vote, election or committee or cabinet, etc… if a vote is called the majority win
of course, yes, we hope that people do try to work with each other and arrive at compromises but in the interests of efficiency (time) or in the event of black and white decisions and a vote is called… the winner gets it, the loser has to hold his fire for another battle…
like… should we invade Iraq… 100 for, 99 against… ok lets go and do it!
sort of brutal but how else do you do it?
Thaksin did make changes in the economic changes… but only in terms of redistribution of wealth…
There is a lot of discussion about the death of capitalism and adoption of at least semi-socialism, in South America and now especially at this time of crisis… I side note the pouring of tax money to bailout of financial institutions in the US is not at all like free market capitalism… but it doesnt meet socialist criteria either…
The economic system is really important but I think not as fundamental as:
rule by the people
vs
rule by the families
battle that is going on in Thailand.
Conflict in Bangkok: Open thread
every move seems like a strategic move of a commander or such would do. I can see no coherent reason where one event explains another in Thai news. The PAD are giving the reasons, but it is not logical.
Grade 4 travel advisory…for Bangkok
Somchai + Samak = Somsak?
Sondhi won’t care, he’s a nihilist pursuing a scorched earth policy, a deluded cult leader and proto-fascist. There has never been a political agenda of PAD beyond their anti-Thaksin meme, which is Sondhis own personal, selfish agenda. Everything else is secondary or non-existent, regardless of Thailand fast becoming a failed state.
Too late for royal intervention?
Please correct my last post: upon dissolution of the House, a new election must be held at 45 days, and not more than 60 days, from the date of dissolution. (2007 Constitution, sec. 108.)
Judicial dissolution of a party does not automatically result in dissolution of the house. Every member of a dissolved party has 60 days to join another party without losing his membership in the house. (2007 Constitution, sec. 106.)
Speculations on health and mateship
I was thinking that the Burmese junta had done a DOS on New Mandala, but was assured by Mr. Farrelly that it was a server problem.
And here I was, thinking that New Mandala had “arrived”.
Too late for royal intervention?
Ralph Kramden — The 90-day rule that applied in 2006 doesn’t apply under the new constitution. Members of parliament who become party-less due to a dissolution can join a new party within 30 days and be eligible to run in the election (if they just quit their party, the 90-day rule applies). An election cannot be called sooner than 30 days (and not more than 45 days). So a quick election can’t be used to cut ex-PPP members out of the election.
An interesting loophole: some PPP members have been quitting in anticipation of dissolution. Samak just sent his resignation letter from his hospital bed in the U.S. They will apparently fall under the 90-day rule, since they resigned and were not forced out by a judicial dissolution.
New Mandala in The Age
The human brain seems to work best in black-and-white alternatives. Then everything seems sooo clear. But maybe there are all kind of shades.
I am astounded how many people think that democracy is about voting and then the majority dictating to the minority. True democracy means in my view that no group is excluded and that a system is set up which can be accepted by everybody. Without this basic understanding, voting becomes meaningless. Democracy is not about the majority deciding who is paying for lunch. Why the majority is not paying for their own lunch?
I am for an economic system which distributes the proceeds and resources in a fair way. Therefore I am very strongly against the greed capitalism. But in my opinion the economic system should be changed in the first place. Does anyone really believe that Thaksin would like to do that. I do not think so.
And if we do not know how to solve a problem – for instance finding a fair economic system which transcends capitalism and socialism, then maybe we should spend some resources and time to study these questions in earnest.
Of course we have to go on with our daily lifes. Therefore we may have to find some temporary solutions to the mess we are in in Thailand and also internationally (financial system crisis). But also these should not be black-and-white hammer solutions.
Conflict in Bangkok: Open thread
Ralph, I agree with you that there are a number of international journos doing a good job – it’s just that by and large, the Australian audience isn’t hearing them.
I’m getting a little tired of fielding questions from friends and family who are misinformed by the pathetic coverage from the ABC, SBS (via the Al Jazeera correspondent), and the popular Murdoch press which dominates the town where I live. And right now, of course, it’s all about getting ‘Aussies’ out of Thailand. Nothing else really matters, apparently.
BTW, the ‘judicial coup’ theory is looking a good bet right at the moment.
Speculations on health and mateship
It’s true that New Mandala was down yesterday. I hope it was technical and not because PAD sympathizers had hacked it.
Conflict in Bangkok: Open thread
What the PAD are proposing 70%:30%
Is this because they find the Democrat’s Shadow Govt ineffective?
Restraint is discredited
Quote: “The only solution is the ‘73, ‘76, ‘92 solution: the people hit the streets. No, I don’t believe ‘the people’ are on the streets yet, but if they do, there’ll be blood,”
I don’t think this is a good suggestion, letting ordinary people die in the streets so that the ‘bigger boys'(whoever they are0 can reap the benefits.
i think the UN and the international community should put a pressure on the PAD (i.e. strongly condemn the PAD leaders’ actions) AND provide help for the Thai government to remove the PAD protestors (at the airports) proficiently and effectively with the priority of causing as little bloodshed as possible, then put all those leaders in jail without bail, also detain all violent followers. Most Thai people are now against the PAD because they fear airport closure can make the economy collapse.. so I don’t think anyone will protests if PAD+followers are arrested and charged with terrorist attempt.
If the UN/inter. community cannot provide commando unit help, perhaps they should pressure the Thai military/generals to take action and help the government rid the airports of the PAD (without causing loss of lives).
Restraint is discredited
I guess it would be better to shut up and ignore the cacophony here, but the simplistic dismissal of PAD and its anti-Thaksin stance is disturbing to the nth degree.
Thaksin is not THE problem per se, but a Thaksin-like M.O. is, and that is what has been haunting Thailand for decades. Claims that the PAD is forcing members to be martyrs, that the PAD is only looking for violence, that the PAD is wrong and violent and harmful to the nation’s interests,…well, this all sounds like reactionary pro-government knee-jerking at best. At worst, it is a huge misunderstanding of what is going on in the country and overlooking the real issues that the so-called civil society everyone is wont to retain is in fact not so civil as oppressive.
And saying that I, the PAD, PAD supporters, etc., are advocating or supporting violence is sheer nonsense.
I said it before and will say it again, a lot of factors are at work in the current standoff. The police, army and others just don’t want to be blamed for damaging the country’s image – they could not care less about the country’s welfare per se. All they want is personal gratification and the right to plunder so they can help their friends. those in the northeast who support the TRT and PPP and other minions of madness are ignorant and unfortunate, just as those are who voted for Bush the second time around. Call it democracy if you will, but it is not.