But in their heads, there is doubtless not much room for truly left field views. The power trip and the collection of capitalist baubles is far more important to all Thai pols. I might believe the above when someone decides to actually incorporate the word ‘socialist’. Some hope!
It’s been a while since posts about Carabao were put on here but what do you all think about Ad not singing at the protest rally that’s going on now?
I do agree with Johpa, I’ve been to many different Carabao concerts both here in the USA and in Thailand, for me it’s about the music. Johpa, you weren’t at the one in SF were you?
Does anyone really know how much is publicity, myth or reality when it come to what Ad has done in the past? I keep meaning to ask him. One of these days I think I will.
I love Carabao, always! If anyone wants to talk with me about Carabao please check my website, CuriousCreations.com
Academics seeing the development of an institutionalized political party system as important for the consolidation of democracy will be interested to learn that Thailand is moving into this direction, with the Democrats taking over the part of a royalist-conservative party, while PPP will figure as a socialist/social-democratic option. But don’t hold your breath…
“Despite his popularity in the countryside, Thaksin’s trail of corruption and dubious posturing, his abuses of power, his manipulation of the constitution and the extrajudicial deaths of a crowd of supposed drug-pushers have led to him losing favour so comprehensively that there was little serious resistance when the military shunted his popularly elected government.”
1. Why doesn’t the article mention the UDD and their pre-coup thug predecessors? These are the groups that would assemble and threaten to beat people up, in Udonthani, in front of newspaper headquarters, etc.
2. “Thitinan says the underlying tensions that led to the 2006 coup are bobbing around on the surface of Thai life. Thailand is divided, he explains, between the traditional elites of the military and the bureaucracy and the poor rural dwellers so effectively courted by the populist Thaksin with his healthcare and micro-credit schemes. ”
Is this really what Thitinan says? Rural citizens (i.e. people) but urban military and bureaucracy (i.e. faceless institutions) ? Seems to be typical foreign journalism biased representation of conflict. Mapping the opposition to an elite conspiracy. Alas the article is probably available in all of two libraries in Bangkok, meaning that few will get the opportunity to read what he is saying.
Every Police officer involved in a Lese Majeste investigation dreads those cases, maybe nearly as much as the accused. They will be watched closely, and any slight mistake can be fatal for a career.
Every slight utterance of the accused has to be interpreted (and translated in case of done in a foreign language) by several academics independently. Results of such have to be closely adhered to by investigating officers. There is no leeway possible as is with other offenses.
I would suggest interviewing Police officers that have been/are involved in those cases.
What may appear as “dragging their feet” is simply the fact that some of those investigations are extremely time consuming to investigate and need enormous manpower, while others aren’t. The Da Torpedo case is rather clear cut under existing law, as was the case of the drunk Swiss man.
The Jakrapop case is very difficult, as the speech was in English, and therefore several Professors for English had to be consulted. Also there are very powerful vested interests putting on pressure in this particular case, and they are not in the government, or the investigating police.
Given the complications involved in such Lese Majeste cases, and the lack of explanation of such in Ajarn Sulak’s text, i can only come to the conclusion that he either does not understand how they work, or that he is somewhat misleading his readers.
But – that should also be mentioned – Ajarn Sulak has been walking on the edge for a long time with some of his statements concerning this issue.
Also, who in fact did file his particular case is still open to debate. I just do not take his word and interpretation without knowing what in particular he said and a confirmation that in fact it was a “red shirt” that filed his case in order to simply hound him. Just because Sulak is reportedly close to some in the leadership of the PAD does still leave room for different interpretations of what happened.
We should not jump to conclusions just based on his own article, a text that has omitted several basic facts on the procedure of such cases.
There is very direct involvement of the Democrat Party with PAD. The southern contingent of PAD is clearly supported by the southern Democrat network, Somkiet is a Democrat MP.
Abhisit has come on the 29th of August to the rescue of PAD when police has nearly dispersed the protest at Makhawan, and at the 7th of October Democrat led BMA has refused the requests of police for firefighting equipment to use as water throwers.
Kraisak Choonhavan, another early PAD supporter, is a Democrat MP.
And the list goes on…
You are right, Somchai is not in “total” control of the TRT/PPP machine. But neither is Thaksin (and he never was). This is one of the biggest miscalculations of his opponents (next to the notion that TRT/PPP voters only support this party because they are uneducated and bought).
The many factions in that large group are at best cleverly managed, or, in case of the UDD, are allied but still keeping their own separate ideological identities.
Of course the symbol of Thaksin’s name is a major rallying point for the majority of the government’s supporters. Yet the political visions of many of the leaders of the groups within UDD are not limited to bringing Thaksin back to power.
What Newin is up to nobody really knows apart from himself.
Thai society is right now in rapid development, and in the next few years we will see many surprising changes. Media reporting lags mostly far behind those developments, which unfortunately means that the general public is relying on mostly wrong analyzes.
Nick #26, concerning Lese Majeste cases, the police prosecuting the cases has a lot of influence. They have been known to ‘drag their feet’ for many, while religiously pursuing others – in this case, AjarnSulak, who has to answer the same allegations at a few police stations!
It is also a rather strong accusation against AjarnSulak saying that his “writings show absolute lack of understanding on how Lese Majeste cases work”. You might need to get one slammed on you to actually emphathize and ‘understand’… There seems to be a choice between the direct Da Thorpedo and indirect, Anti-Thaksin path to Lese Majeste enlightenment…
David Brown, ask Thairath for more detail on that. It is their report. I specifically translate it because they have the largest leadership and, arguably, the most diverse sources of informants. As mentioned, I would also encourage you to try separate the plausible facts from the sensationalization, which Thairath is also known for…
David, I am sure you know Thai politics well enough to know that the government does not have to be directly involved (as arguably, the Democrats are not directly involved with PAD). Their supporters such as the LoveUdon group, UDD or any convenient ‘Third Hand’ – known or unknown, can do the job for them. Never assume that PMSomchai is in total control of the TRT/PPP political machine. Anyone in both side of Thai societal divide know that he is a mere “nominee” – in the first instance, of his wife Yaowapa, and, since PMSamak’s demise, directly of The Master…
It is also rather naive to say that PMThaksin has nothing to do with any of this. My apologies if you sincerely believe when PMThaksin said/promised that he will not be involved in Thai politics and will spend his time quietly making merit and doing good things for the country, and his phone-in to his 80,000-100,000 fans at Rajamangla Stadium is not politically motivated. If that is the case, we’ll have to agree to strongly disagree…
Thai media also consistently reports of PPP politicians flying directly to London, Hong Kong, Beijing (whereever PMThaksin happens to be) to cut deals and lobby for cabinet positions. The latest being Newin crawling to The Master to beg for forgiveness. Again, I am relying on media reports and you might not consider that as any ‘evidences’. I can only hope that you are not one of those people who is attempting to white-wash PMThaksin saying that he is totally innocent of all alleged crimes…
Just to clarify – for the past decade or so, foreigners (i.e. Westerners) have been able to travel relatively freely in the Shan State. Places like Lashio, Keng Tung, Mong La, Taunggyi, etc, are all pretty easy to get to (and get around). A number of the country’s top tourist destinations are in the Shan State and foreigners enter everyday of the year.
Loi Taileng and other areas not under government control are obviously sensitive, but not because foreigners are fobidden. Foreigners also go to some of those areas all the time.
I discussed the “Wanted” poster with Antonio a day or so ago. He doesn’t appear to be very perturbed about it.
The site the poster appears on is in Burmese, but another site had an English translation of it. The web site is just one of many “false flag” operations that the SPDC and its supporters run. Some Burmese living in the U.S. run these sites. They basically use American freedoms to denounce democracy.
The crux of it is that the SPDC is irritated by the videos that Antonio produced, which are on Youtube.com.
Since 1962 the SPDC have forbidden foreigners to enter Shan state, and here’s a guy who not only went there and lived with the Shan, but made videos for all to see.
blogging 20 years, and 88 studen group leaders 65 years (each)
On 11 Novermber, Nine 88 Generation Group leaders including Min Ko Naing were
get long term imprisonment 65 years again in Maubin prison same as previous Fourteen members of the 88 Generation Students Group. After that they were transferred to Insein prison then transferred again far from Rangoon and different areas per each in this early morning as following –
I am wondering what people think about and know about the palace’s coordinated peace campaign? It seems clear from statements overseas by various MFA officials and the reports in the press, from Sumet, KPI, Anupong and others that this is a serious attempt to get PAD to go home. Any views would be appreciated, especially thoughts about what this movement might say about democratic development.
I suppose you intentionally try to draw the government and and, without any evidence I can see, Thaksin into your scenarios of armed struggle
I have reread what Khun Thongchai and Khun Somchai have said about the activities of the PAD and, if your translation is accurate, “highly destructive weapons is being bought into Bangkok for a decisive struggle after November 29th”.
I cannot see anything there that implies that it is the government that is bringing weapons or that they are planning to be part of any decisive struggle after November 29th.
I you believe there is specific evidence that the government are involved other than as monitors and the police trying to stop and arrest the perpetrators whenever they discover them, then please advise us.
I believe the PAD is currently declining in support because it has made no significant progress toward meeting its backers objectives, if anything public opinion has hardened against its methods and whatever people can understand are its objectives. I think many people are now convinced that Khun Sondhi is continuing the protests to meet his business wealth objectives rather than any focus on his backers desires.
Because of this, the PAD is trying to discover stunts or events where it can achieve some actual progress. A bloody encounter could provide some more material for a further round. Seems to me you are one of the agents intent on assisting the PAD to this next goal.
You are dreaming if you think that more stringent law enforcement against NGOs is going to be used by the Government to do anything other than silence critics. This is the kind of wishy-washy “rule of law” thinking that does not work — precisely because the enforcement of the law is so selective, based on connections, political position, and willingness to pay off enforcers to look elsewhere. The idea that the Cambodian Government will do this in a participatory manner is also a pipe dream. The Cambodian Government should in fact have more gratitude that many national and international NGOs are actually working for local economic and social development — while the Government officials divert and steal whatever resources they can get their hands on.
Your argumentation that villagers have approved of extrajudicial killings would be a testimony of their “stupidity” is a fallacy.
First of all, during the hot period of the extrajudicial killings in the drug war, not just villagers, but people from all spheres of Thai society have approved of those killings, including H.M. the King (please go back and read the birthday speech of 2003, but not the “Nation” translation, in which this point was conveniently left out).
Also Manager Media was a main tool of promotion and justification of those killings.
You may argue that the wide approval of those killings is then a sign of “stupidity” by almost all of Thai society. Which i would also argue against.
The approval of those extrajudicial killings is a sign of several things. Firstly it is a sign that in fact the drug situation was dire. Secondly, it shows that Thai society still is within a tradition of using extraordinary brutal solutions for real or perceived threads to society.
And regardless of agreement or not with the extrajudicial killings (and, for the record – i do not agree with this horrific aspect of the drug war), it was very effective. For many years after – drugs were very difficult to come by. It may have been horrible, but not stupid.
Only now, since about 6 months, coinciding with the beginning of the latest political turmoil, did drugs return massively, and are available again in every village and every soi (yesterday i have taken photos of industrial workers smoking Amphetamines, and we also talked extensively about the development of the street market of the last couple of years).
And lastly – i have lived in rural areas, i am married into a rural family. I do not see people there any more stupid regarding politics than in urban areas. On the opposite – i do see people there discussing politics more frequently and openly nowadays than in many urban settings. And these discussions are mostly more free of ideology nowadays than under the urban middle classes.
Of course Thailand is a democracy in development, and the many aspects such as the lack of awareness of Human Rights show that there is still a lot of work to be done. I do refuse though the notion that rural people are somewhat less “intelligent” than urbanites.
I would suggest to discuss the drug war killings with PAD protesters – you may find that most do agree very much with those extrajudicial killings as well. Because many of those, as the two most powerful core leaders – Sondhi L. and Chamlong, were Thaksin supporters during that time.
I also wonder very much how you can cite Sulak’s rather confused text. His writings show absolute lack of understanding on how Lese Majeste cases work. In these cases no government has any influence whatsoever. The cases are filed, and can be filed by anyone. Authorities have to follow those cases to the end. And especially, if you look at the particulars of most of the recent cases – they have been filed by people close to PAD (or police was pressured by PAD), or filed by a particular Police officer very close to the Democrat Party, or private citizens. Who in fact did file the case against Sulak is still not known.
If the government would be able to influence these cases, Jakrapop Penkair’s case would hardly have been given to prosecution.
We can in fact conclude here, that the tool of “Lese Majeste” is nowadays mostly used by the opposition to the government.
Prof. Thonchai’s piece here may be nothing new to many, but your factually wrong comments show that the views expressed in this text have to be stated over and over again.
So jonfernquest thinks that Rodrik’s piece, which he hoped would be an outcome is being taken up in its entirety by the G20 leaders? And he only thinks Rodrik is pulling lots of legs? But thanks for the wonderful insights.
Obama is not taking part in the G20 meetings and has only observers there so doomsday or not, it hardly seems likely that Obama is the man to look at in this context. Suddenly reincarnated free trader Bush seems to have been in the driver’s seat for a while. All the scuttlebutt about Obama as a protectionist is not much different from the same positioning games that took place when Clinton came in. What a protectionist he turned out to be! And the Clinton Dems were remarkably better economic managers than either of the Bush’s administrations pre- and post- his terms in office.
No doubt economic circumstances might direct some of the policy direction of Washington (and lots of other places), but the idea that Obama is ideologically protectionist is not underpinned by much evidence from his speeches and writings.
It seems like this is not the only area of expression being restricted.
The discipline of history has also seen some changes with longstanding institutions such as the Myanmar Historical Commission becoming part of the Ministry of Culture and the Universities Historical Research Center (UHRC) being replaced by a Department of Historical Research. These organizations have sponsored conferences with foreign participation in the past and published journals with articles by foreigners in them.
Sounds like maybe in-country critical scholarship is to be replaced with adherence to official versions. There is also the possibility that only scholars from countries deemed friendly get access to resources. Without few inside or outside the country sponsoring scholarship sounds like the future of historical scholarship on Burma may not be very bright.
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On Thaksin
But in their heads, there is doubtless not much room for truly left field views. The power trip and the collection of capitalist baubles is far more important to all Thai pols. I might believe the above when someone decides to actually incorporate the word ‘socialist’. Some hope!
Carabao covered
It’s been a while since posts about Carabao were put on here but what do you all think about Ad not singing at the protest rally that’s going on now?
I do agree with Johpa, I’ve been to many different Carabao concerts both here in the USA and in Thailand, for me it’s about the music. Johpa, you weren’t at the one in SF were you?
Does anyone really know how much is publicity, myth or reality when it come to what Ad has done in the past? I keep meaning to ask him. One of these days I think I will.
I love Carabao, always! If anyone wants to talk with me about Carabao please check my website, CuriousCreations.com
On Thaksin
Academics seeing the development of an institutionalized political party system as important for the consolidation of democracy will be interested to learn that Thailand is moving into this direction, with the Democrats taking over the part of a royalist-conservative party, while PPP will figure as a socialist/social-democratic option. But don’t hold your breath…
On the PAD
You forgot the other part:
“Despite his popularity in the countryside, Thaksin’s trail of corruption and dubious posturing, his abuses of power, his manipulation of the constitution and the extrajudicial deaths of a crowd of supposed drug-pushers have led to him losing favour so comprehensively that there was little serious resistance when the military shunted his popularly elected government.”
1. Why doesn’t the article mention the UDD and their pre-coup thug predecessors? These are the groups that would assemble and threaten to beat people up, in Udonthani, in front of newspaper headquarters, etc.
2. “Thitinan says the underlying tensions that led to the 2006 coup are bobbing around on the surface of Thai life. Thailand is divided, he explains, between the traditional elites of the military and the bureaucracy and the poor rural dwellers so effectively courted by the populist Thaksin with his healthcare and micro-credit schemes. ”
Is this really what Thitinan says? Rural citizens (i.e. people) but urban military and bureaucracy (i.e. faceless institutions) ? Seems to be typical foreign journalism biased representation of conflict. Mapping the opposition to an elite conspiracy. Alas the article is probably available in all of two libraries in Bangkok, meaning that few will get the opportunity to read what he is saying.
Anti-democracy in Thailand
“Sidh S.”
Every Police officer involved in a Lese Majeste investigation dreads those cases, maybe nearly as much as the accused. They will be watched closely, and any slight mistake can be fatal for a career.
Every slight utterance of the accused has to be interpreted (and translated in case of done in a foreign language) by several academics independently. Results of such have to be closely adhered to by investigating officers. There is no leeway possible as is with other offenses.
I would suggest interviewing Police officers that have been/are involved in those cases.
What may appear as “dragging their feet” is simply the fact that some of those investigations are extremely time consuming to investigate and need enormous manpower, while others aren’t. The Da Torpedo case is rather clear cut under existing law, as was the case of the drunk Swiss man.
The Jakrapop case is very difficult, as the speech was in English, and therefore several Professors for English had to be consulted. Also there are very powerful vested interests putting on pressure in this particular case, and they are not in the government, or the investigating police.
Given the complications involved in such Lese Majeste cases, and the lack of explanation of such in Ajarn Sulak’s text, i can only come to the conclusion that he either does not understand how they work, or that he is somewhat misleading his readers.
But – that should also be mentioned – Ajarn Sulak has been walking on the edge for a long time with some of his statements concerning this issue.
Also, who in fact did file his particular case is still open to debate. I just do not take his word and interpretation without knowing what in particular he said and a confirmation that in fact it was a “red shirt” that filed his case in order to simply hound him. Just because Sulak is reportedly close to some in the leadership of the PAD does still leave room for different interpretations of what happened.
We should not jump to conclusions just based on his own article, a text that has omitted several basic facts on the procedure of such cases.
Anti-democracy in Thailand
“Sidh S.”
There is very direct involvement of the Democrat Party with PAD. The southern contingent of PAD is clearly supported by the southern Democrat network, Somkiet is a Democrat MP.
Abhisit has come on the 29th of August to the rescue of PAD when police has nearly dispersed the protest at Makhawan, and at the 7th of October Democrat led BMA has refused the requests of police for firefighting equipment to use as water throwers.
Kraisak Choonhavan, another early PAD supporter, is a Democrat MP.
And the list goes on…
You are right, Somchai is not in “total” control of the TRT/PPP machine. But neither is Thaksin (and he never was). This is one of the biggest miscalculations of his opponents (next to the notion that TRT/PPP voters only support this party because they are uneducated and bought).
The many factions in that large group are at best cleverly managed, or, in case of the UDD, are allied but still keeping their own separate ideological identities.
Of course the symbol of Thaksin’s name is a major rallying point for the majority of the government’s supporters. Yet the political visions of many of the leaders of the groups within UDD are not limited to bringing Thaksin back to power.
What Newin is up to nobody really knows apart from himself.
Thai society is right now in rapid development, and in the next few years we will see many surprising changes. Media reporting lags mostly far behind those developments, which unfortunately means that the general public is relying on mostly wrong analyzes.
Anti-democracy in Thailand
Nick #26, concerning Lese Majeste cases, the police prosecuting the cases has a lot of influence. They have been known to ‘drag their feet’ for many, while religiously pursuing others – in this case, AjarnSulak, who has to answer the same allegations at a few police stations!
It is also a rather strong accusation against AjarnSulak saying that his “writings show absolute lack of understanding on how Lese Majeste cases work”. You might need to get one slammed on you to actually emphathize and ‘understand’… There seems to be a choice between the direct Da Thorpedo and indirect, Anti-Thaksin path to Lese Majeste enlightenment…
Anti-democracy in Thailand
David Brown, ask Thairath for more detail on that. It is their report. I specifically translate it because they have the largest leadership and, arguably, the most diverse sources of informants. As mentioned, I would also encourage you to try separate the plausible facts from the sensationalization, which Thairath is also known for…
David, I am sure you know Thai politics well enough to know that the government does not have to be directly involved (as arguably, the Democrats are not directly involved with PAD). Their supporters such as the LoveUdon group, UDD or any convenient ‘Third Hand’ – known or unknown, can do the job for them. Never assume that PMSomchai is in total control of the TRT/PPP political machine. Anyone in both side of Thai societal divide know that he is a mere “nominee” – in the first instance, of his wife Yaowapa, and, since PMSamak’s demise, directly of The Master…
It is also rather naive to say that PMThaksin has nothing to do with any of this. My apologies if you sincerely believe when PMThaksin said/promised that he will not be involved in Thai politics and will spend his time quietly making merit and doing good things for the country, and his phone-in to his 80,000-100,000 fans at Rajamangla Stadium is not politically motivated. If that is the case, we’ll have to agree to strongly disagree…
Thai media also consistently reports of PPP politicians flying directly to London, Hong Kong, Beijing (whereever PMThaksin happens to be) to cut deals and lobby for cabinet positions. The latest being Newin crawling to The Master to beg for forgiveness. Again, I am relying on media reports and you might not consider that as any ‘evidences’. I can only hope that you are not one of those people who is attempting to white-wash PMThaksin saying that he is totally innocent of all alleged crimes…
Wanted in Burma? …but more adventures to come
Thanks Charles,
Just to clarify – for the past decade or so, foreigners (i.e. Westerners) have been able to travel relatively freely in the Shan State. Places like Lashio, Keng Tung, Mong La, Taunggyi, etc, are all pretty easy to get to (and get around). A number of the country’s top tourist destinations are in the Shan State and foreigners enter everyday of the year.
Loi Taileng and other areas not under government control are obviously sensitive, but not because foreigners are fobidden. Foreigners also go to some of those areas all the time.
Best wishes to all,
Nich
Wanted in Burma? …but more adventures to come
I discussed the “Wanted” poster with Antonio a day or so ago. He doesn’t appear to be very perturbed about it.
The site the poster appears on is in Burmese, but another site had an English translation of it. The web site is just one of many “false flag” operations that the SPDC and its supporters run. Some Burmese living in the U.S. run these sites. They basically use American freedoms to denounce democracy.
The crux of it is that the SPDC is irritated by the videos that Antonio produced, which are on Youtube.com.
Since 1962 the SPDC have forbidden foreigners to enter Shan state, and here’s a guy who not only went there and lived with the Shan, but made videos for all to see.
20 years in prison for blogging
blogging 20 years, and 88 studen group leaders 65 years (each)
On 11 Novermber, Nine 88 Generation Group leaders including Min Ko Naing were
get long term imprisonment 65 years again in Maubin prison same as previous Fourteen members of the 88 Generation Students Group. After that they were transferred to Insein prison then transferred again far from Rangoon and different areas per each in this early morning as following –
http://www.aappb.org/
Regional reaction to Obama
The actual communique is at (amongst other places): http://www.sofiaecho.com/article/the-g20-summit-the-declaration-in-full/id_33000/catid_66
Anti-democracy in Thailand
I am wondering what people think about and know about the palace’s coordinated peace campaign? It seems clear from statements overseas by various MFA officials and the reports in the press, from Sumet, KPI, Anupong and others that this is a serious attempt to get PAD to go home. Any views would be appreciated, especially thoughts about what this movement might say about democratic development.
Cambodia’s four letter word: NGOs
So the country should be grateful to the NGO’s for all the marvelous work that they do? Piffle, about time a clean up occurred.
Anti-democracy in Thailand
Sidh S
I suppose you intentionally try to draw the government and and, without any evidence I can see, Thaksin into your scenarios of armed struggle
I have reread what Khun Thongchai and Khun Somchai have said about the activities of the PAD and, if your translation is accurate, “highly destructive weapons is being bought into Bangkok for a decisive struggle after November 29th”.
I cannot see anything there that implies that it is the government that is bringing weapons or that they are planning to be part of any decisive struggle after November 29th.
I you believe there is specific evidence that the government are involved other than as monitors and the police trying to stop and arrest the perpetrators whenever they discover them, then please advise us.
I believe the PAD is currently declining in support because it has made no significant progress toward meeting its backers objectives, if anything public opinion has hardened against its methods and whatever people can understand are its objectives. I think many people are now convinced that Khun Sondhi is continuing the protests to meet his business wealth objectives rather than any focus on his backers desires.
Because of this, the PAD is trying to discover stunts or events where it can achieve some actual progress. A bloody encounter could provide some more material for a further round. Seems to me you are one of the agents intent on assisting the PAD to this next goal.
Cambodia’s four letter word: NGOs
You are dreaming if you think that more stringent law enforcement against NGOs is going to be used by the Government to do anything other than silence critics. This is the kind of wishy-washy “rule of law” thinking that does not work — precisely because the enforcement of the law is so selective, based on connections, political position, and willingness to pay off enforcers to look elsewhere. The idea that the Cambodian Government will do this in a participatory manner is also a pipe dream. The Cambodian Government should in fact have more gratitude that many national and international NGOs are actually working for local economic and social development — while the Government officials divert and steal whatever resources they can get their hands on.
Anti-democracy in Thailand
“jonfernquest”:
Your argumentation that villagers have approved of extrajudicial killings would be a testimony of their “stupidity” is a fallacy.
First of all, during the hot period of the extrajudicial killings in the drug war, not just villagers, but people from all spheres of Thai society have approved of those killings, including H.M. the King (please go back and read the birthday speech of 2003, but not the “Nation” translation, in which this point was conveniently left out).
Also Manager Media was a main tool of promotion and justification of those killings.
You may argue that the wide approval of those killings is then a sign of “stupidity” by almost all of Thai society. Which i would also argue against.
The approval of those extrajudicial killings is a sign of several things. Firstly it is a sign that in fact the drug situation was dire. Secondly, it shows that Thai society still is within a tradition of using extraordinary brutal solutions for real or perceived threads to society.
And regardless of agreement or not with the extrajudicial killings (and, for the record – i do not agree with this horrific aspect of the drug war), it was very effective. For many years after – drugs were very difficult to come by. It may have been horrible, but not stupid.
Only now, since about 6 months, coinciding with the beginning of the latest political turmoil, did drugs return massively, and are available again in every village and every soi (yesterday i have taken photos of industrial workers smoking Amphetamines, and we also talked extensively about the development of the street market of the last couple of years).
And lastly – i have lived in rural areas, i am married into a rural family. I do not see people there any more stupid regarding politics than in urban areas. On the opposite – i do see people there discussing politics more frequently and openly nowadays than in many urban settings. And these discussions are mostly more free of ideology nowadays than under the urban middle classes.
Of course Thailand is a democracy in development, and the many aspects such as the lack of awareness of Human Rights show that there is still a lot of work to be done. I do refuse though the notion that rural people are somewhat less “intelligent” than urbanites.
I would suggest to discuss the drug war killings with PAD protesters – you may find that most do agree very much with those extrajudicial killings as well. Because many of those, as the two most powerful core leaders – Sondhi L. and Chamlong, were Thaksin supporters during that time.
I also wonder very much how you can cite Sulak’s rather confused text. His writings show absolute lack of understanding on how Lese Majeste cases work. In these cases no government has any influence whatsoever. The cases are filed, and can be filed by anyone. Authorities have to follow those cases to the end. And especially, if you look at the particulars of most of the recent cases – they have been filed by people close to PAD (or police was pressured by PAD), or filed by a particular Police officer very close to the Democrat Party, or private citizens. Who in fact did file the case against Sulak is still not known.
If the government would be able to influence these cases, Jakrapop Penkair’s case would hardly have been given to prosecution.
We can in fact conclude here, that the tool of “Lese Majeste” is nowadays mostly used by the opposition to the government.
Prof. Thonchai’s piece here may be nothing new to many, but your factually wrong comments show that the views expressed in this text have to be stated over and over again.
Regional reaction to Obama
So jonfernquest thinks that Rodrik’s piece, which he hoped would be an outcome is being taken up in its entirety by the G20 leaders? And he only thinks Rodrik is pulling lots of legs? But thanks for the wonderful insights.
Obama is not taking part in the G20 meetings and has only observers there so doomsday or not, it hardly seems likely that Obama is the man to look at in this context. Suddenly reincarnated free trader Bush seems to have been in the driver’s seat for a while. All the scuttlebutt about Obama as a protectionist is not much different from the same positioning games that took place when Clinton came in. What a protectionist he turned out to be! And the Clinton Dems were remarkably better economic managers than either of the Bush’s administrations pre- and post- his terms in office.
No doubt economic circumstances might direct some of the policy direction of Washington (and lots of other places), but the idea that Obama is ideologically protectionist is not underpinned by much evidence from his speeches and writings.
jonfernquest might read: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Honeymooners.
Anti-democracy in Thailand
HC Lau…..
I forgot to say I really like your side story… realistic and persistent
a useful parable of how to live ones life in an equal opportunity society
and best of skill/luck to your cousin
“Any act detrimental to the security of the state”
It seems like this is not the only area of expression being restricted.
The discipline of history has also seen some changes with longstanding institutions such as the Myanmar Historical Commission becoming part of the Ministry of Culture and the Universities Historical Research Center (UHRC) being replaced by a Department of Historical Research. These organizations have sponsored conferences with foreign participation in the past and published journals with articles by foreigners in them.
Sounds like maybe in-country critical scholarship is to be replaced with adherence to official versions. There is also the possibility that only scholars from countries deemed friendly get access to resources. Without few inside or outside the country sponsoring scholarship sounds like the future of historical scholarship on Burma may not be very bright.