I am in another country and could not get accurate account of the situation due to many reasons. Anyway, even if I were in Bangkok, it would still be hard to get any accurate report. From what I read on online media and webboards, most people did not know about the situation you’ve seen such as
– Police had one of their loudspeaker lorries and first issued a warning that protesters should disperse as they would be attacked, and teargas would be fired.
– The protesters did not disperse and soon after the attack started with a barrage of teargas grenades.
– Also the few remaining PAD protesters threw some explosives, maybe firecrackers or their own ping pong bombs.
as mentioned earlier.
I just hope the situation gets better pretty soon, but it seems unlikely.
Slingshot yes, golf club yes, heavy stick yes, but up till now. There is no even a single picture proving that PAD has a firearm or an explosion. However, there are more evidences coming out all the time that Police or anti-PAD kept on lying.
Hoax 1: The man has no leg before and he use the red juice to lie to people that his leg was cut during an incident. This is a hoax. Already proven. This guy is serious injured in the same time still trying to protect the woman behind him. The news just don’t show the picture before his legs was flipped under uncut part..
Hoax 2: The guy sit crossing his legs have something in his left hand that look like a ping pong bomb, but on his right hand is seriously injured. This is also a hoax. This guy is a street artist who worked to feed his family of 2 young children. He drew a portrait in the protest area for 100THB each. The doctor who took care of him already confirm that he was holding a leather key ring. Now.. his left hand is cut of, his windpipe is seriously damaged .. that seems he won’t be able to speak for the rest of his life.
Stupid Hoax 3: Before the police admitted that it was a police who holding a gun. Thai police spoke man said that it was someone who dress up like a police. And now, the police said that he was trying to shoot a 4wd Cherokee crashing into police. This is also a lie. You can see a video clip on youtube. The 2 incidents happen in different occasion. That policeman really point a gun to protester and stopping when his fellow policeman shout “Camera!”, funny .. that he also said he is a driver that he needs to protect special mob breaking equipment so he is permitted to carry a gun.
Bad Hoax 4: The police spokeman said that the lady who died may nipping an explosion with her. (carrying between arm and chest). but the doctor already stated.. that the wound is so serious. It caused from the impacting with a very hot item from in front of her chest. (Her whole chest was gone)… The lady who died graduated from the Assumption University. Her whole family joined a PAD campaign. She has a plan to marry next year.
Fact 1: The police use a shotgun shooting from inside the parliament.. this clip can be found from a youtube.. It has been recorded by Euronews camera man.
Fact 2: It is true that there was a mini truck crashing into a police and hurt some of policeman. But you should understand that this happen after the bloodshed incident in the early morning. The protesters really have nothing else to protect themselves.. And the leader can’t control this. People with anger have to decide to do something.. not just being done by brutal police alone.. I didn’t say this is a right thing to do… but you should try to understand the whole incident as well.
Fact 3:Police didn’t follow standard mob breaking procedure. They don’t negotiate, they don’t use a loud speaker. They don’t come in with their club and shield.. They just started firing/throwing a tear gas bomb and some identified explosive grenade. This is heard from several medical team who worked in the area. The police also fired at a medical team as well. The guy fell over and stood up again trying to continue his help other people.
Fact 4: Some police fired at PADs like they are getting to win a Counter Strike or such (so happy face).
Observation 1:Any bloodshed incidents in the Thailand history, there is no single person responsible for this (e.g. sent to jail). And I think Police think that they can get away with this again like in the past.
This is a fair coverage, but you should also report the after event. what have been found and covered.
Please visit my web site for the evident mentioned here.
Middle-class battlers for democracy? Hmm. James Ockey in ‘Making Democracy’ describes how many Thais who died in 1992 – led by Chamlong, of course – were poor foot soldiers of the movement. The middle class participated, yes, but here as elsewhere the lives sacrificed to ‘revolution’ in whatever form are usually the workers’.
Not to belittle anyone on the barricades, just a factual point.
i’m a student of lass 9 reading in AP . I have read what chandan have written and i would say that you non arunachalies need ILP cuz if we let you people cover our ancestors land an let you exploit its potential natural resources then our tribe, our language, our culture and heritage and our states natural flora and fauna will be destroyed !
– Police had one of their loudspeaker lorries and first issued a warning that protesters should disperse as they would be attacked, and teargas would be fired.
– The protesters did not disperse and soon after the attack started with a barrage of teargas grenades.
– Also the few remaining PAD protesters threw some explosives, maybe firecrackers or their own ping pong bombs.
These line are what was left out from the thai “main stream” media.
======
The reason for these lines are left out because it is not true.
These have been investigated by thai media. All ask questions to police why not warning , why not do this ,why not do that and a lot of things before attack.
Sorry that I can not finish this reading because I feel that this report are not accurate since the beginning.
c’est dur,
Et nous en France on se plein.
Nous n’avons eu aucun retour au info de se qui c’est passé a Bangkok
pendant les emeutes des anti-gouvernement………
I was there in the afternoon from 4.00pm to 6.00pm, mainly keeping safe at the Ratchawiti / Phichai Road intersection, and then I moved back to the Dusit Zoo, standing with the EMS crews.
I saw the harder core PAD roll police paddy wagons to create barricades, and I saw them push coaches / wagons into the side gate of the Parliament Building.
At one point I saw a PAD guard drive a COACH down Ratchawiti towards the riot police then at the U Thong intersection. My first thought was “this is complete lunacy.”
Fortunately I was nowhere near the front lines at any time, and managed to always stay out of bother.
When the police advanced down Ratchawiti towards the U Thong intersection the police line (Bangkok units) behind us dispersed to allow a safe exit for anyone who wanted to leave. Very wise.
But I can’t say that I saw EFFECTIVE POLICING by the forces who were advancing up the road.
After their first advance the police could have secured the area – as demonstraters had dispersed in fear of the tear gas.
The PAD guards were forced back as far as the side entrance to the Dusit Zoo. The police could have formed secure lines on Thanon Phichai, and Ratchaweti but because they were affected by their own tear gas (few police wearing gas masks) they didn’t.
The police action did not appear to focus on controlling and containing the situation. There didn’t seem to be a strategy to preventing further PAD responses or the tactical competence to enforce any strategy.
What depressed me most was
1. The naivity of many PAD supporters who were wearing inappropriate eye masks, mouth cloths and tee shirts, believing they would be safe, and not realising how dangerous the situation could become.
2. Seeing PAD guards armed with slingshots, golf clubs and so on. And when the PAD gaurds rolled paddy wagons, what I would say would be “normally law abiding citizens” joined in, without consideration for the consequences.
3. Not seeing the police focusing on containing, controlling and using snatch squads to arrest key trouble makers.
Once again, thank you for your account as it helps my understanding of what was happening on the “front lines.”
Whatever one may think of them and however flakey their leaders, I personally I think referring to the PAD as “the extreme right”, as R.N. England did is an oversimplification. They represent the city dwellers who are fed up with being governed by corrupt polititicians and big businessmen who are elected by the rural voters. This is a reasonable gripe. Equally PPP certainly doesn’t represent anything approaching a left wing. That doesn’t exist in Thailand where overly powerful and persuasive labor leaders and social activists are regularly murdered and disappear with minimal investigations from the authorities. PPP exists solely to provide material benefits to its politicians. These largely represent the Thai-Chinese middleman class upcountry, e.g. rice millers and money lenders, and big business in the capital. They have no vested interest in sustainably improving the lot of rural voters, any more than the PAD has a vested interest in supporting owners of capital over workers.
The problem is that educating the rural masses is anethema to both sides. Educated rural voters would no longer vote for corrupt PPP politicians and middle class city people fear that educated rural people would no longer settle for poor wages and working conditions. Nevertheless, upgrading the almost worthless public education system upcountry, instead of regarding the Education Ministr as a piggy bank to be plundered at will, is the only long-term solution to Thailand’s social, political and economic woes. Ultimately with a better educated work force Thailand would be better able to compete in highly value added industries and there would be more pie for all to share.
Good balanced reporting but I think the police and the government need to take responsibility for the use of what seems to be tear gas grenades that can explode with lethal force. It is hard to believe they had never tested these weapons and didn’t know how dangerous they were. If so, they are guilty of negligence anyway, as they are in failing to equip their men with gas masks before a gas attack. They also had much safer American made tear gas at their disposal and could easily have restricted themselves to that. Chinese made weaponery is at any rate normally purchased only to provide big kick backs to top brass not for use, whereas army and police generals know well they need low kick back, high quality American weaponery to actually do the job. The police are lucky they didn’t lose arms in throwing these lethal bombs.
Also suspicious is the use of Border Patrol Police untrained in riot control, instead Metropolitan police units that have theoretically received some basic training in riot control. This also happened in the 1991 massacre, as police chiefs are more confident that BPP men from upcountry, many of whom have never been to Bangkok before, will take orders to fire on Bangkok crowds than city police. BPP habitually patrol with M16s and are accustomed to a para-military role on the border. Therefore use of lethal force comes easier to them.
The attempt to run over a policeman lying on the ground and the use of fire arms by protestors, if they did, are also reprehensible and totally unacceptable.
I am not afraid of cities becoming independent. I merely described the mainstream thinking in public law and administrative circles in Thailand. Moreover, I doubt that turning provinces into elected local governments equates to federalism. It would merely represent a decentralization within the national state’s executive. Such units would not acquire state status.
I just realized that thai medias,sometimes, are unreliable. I’m thai in upcountry who are trying a lot to find the truth. This article gives me a great look on the situation. Thank you Nick.
Glancing at this with tired eyes, I thought your “obscure title” was Madonna’s (that has to be Jao-Mae something) Material Girl, “We are living in a material world, and I am a material girl”.
Looking at the news story from Matichon, I see no sign that this is about elitism, “the attitiude of these high-status Thais to fellow Thais they regard as inferior,” but rather a set of unresolved tensions in Thai society regarding the meaning of people in police and military uniforms. It is interesting to see this come from the supposedly clear-mided people at the royally-identified psychiatry institute. There are many skeletons (in uniform) in the closet, from the 1970s, 1992, and quite recently, that’s where the itch is from, not some non-Western elitism.
In theory, “western armies at war treat wounded enemy soldiers,” but the statement also conjures up a reality of honorable occidentals and the dishonorable rest. That is, it invents a (racialized) social division on a global scale that is analogous to what the PAD and many other players in Thailand are doing on a national scale.
I had never thought that I would take the side of the Thai police in any of these public debates and unrest, but the account of Oct 7 (and other recent PAD stunts) took me somewhere really new. Thanks for the post and more generally.
no loudspeaker for sure. vdo cameras captured all events. police started throwing explosives first. all PAD protesters were scanned for weapons. they had merely handclappers and some sticks.
There is a lot of discussion on Pantip about the man whose leg got blown off, with many claiming he was an amputee with an artificial leg, and speculation that the injury was probably caused by storing ping-pong grenades inside the artificial leg. A bit surreal, but then again, a lot of what both sides are saying is unbelievable.
This article is the best i have read regarding the riots or whatever you want to call it. It is really sad that one can only read biased news in Thailand. It totally put my opinion into perspective. Thanks for that.
Police had one of their loudspeaker lorries and first issued a warning that protesters should disperse as they would be attacked, and teargas would be fired.
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What happened on 7/10/2008?
Thank you for your report on the situation.
I am in another country and could not get accurate account of the situation due to many reasons. Anyway, even if I were in Bangkok, it would still be hard to get any accurate report. From what I read on online media and webboards, most people did not know about the situation you’ve seen such as
– Police had one of their loudspeaker lorries and first issued a warning that protesters should disperse as they would be attacked, and teargas would be fired.
– The protesters did not disperse and soon after the attack started with a barrage of teargas grenades.
– Also the few remaining PAD protesters threw some explosives, maybe firecrackers or their own ping pong bombs.
as mentioned earlier.
I just hope the situation gets better pretty soon, but it seems unlikely.
What happened on 7/10/2008?
Thank you for your fair coverage about this.
Slingshot yes, golf club yes, heavy stick yes, but up till now. There is no even a single picture proving that PAD has a firearm or an explosion. However, there are more evidences coming out all the time that Police or anti-PAD kept on lying.
Hoax 1: The man has no leg before and he use the red juice to lie to people that his leg was cut during an incident. This is a hoax. Already proven. This guy is serious injured in the same time still trying to protect the woman behind him. The news just don’t show the picture before his legs was flipped under uncut part..
Hoax 2: The guy sit crossing his legs have something in his left hand that look like a ping pong bomb, but on his right hand is seriously injured. This is also a hoax. This guy is a street artist who worked to feed his family of 2 young children. He drew a portrait in the protest area for 100THB each. The doctor who took care of him already confirm that he was holding a leather key ring. Now.. his left hand is cut of, his windpipe is seriously damaged .. that seems he won’t be able to speak for the rest of his life.
Stupid Hoax 3: Before the police admitted that it was a police who holding a gun. Thai police spoke man said that it was someone who dress up like a police. And now, the police said that he was trying to shoot a 4wd Cherokee crashing into police. This is also a lie. You can see a video clip on youtube. The 2 incidents happen in different occasion. That policeman really point a gun to protester and stopping when his fellow policeman shout “Camera!”, funny .. that he also said he is a driver that he needs to protect special mob breaking equipment so he is permitted to carry a gun.
Bad Hoax 4: The police spokeman said that the lady who died may nipping an explosion with her. (carrying between arm and chest). but the doctor already stated.. that the wound is so serious. It caused from the impacting with a very hot item from in front of her chest. (Her whole chest was gone)… The lady who died graduated from the Assumption University. Her whole family joined a PAD campaign. She has a plan to marry next year.
Fact 1: The police use a shotgun shooting from inside the parliament.. this clip can be found from a youtube.. It has been recorded by Euronews camera man.
Fact 2: It is true that there was a mini truck crashing into a police and hurt some of policeman. But you should understand that this happen after the bloodshed incident in the early morning. The protesters really have nothing else to protect themselves.. And the leader can’t control this. People with anger have to decide to do something.. not just being done by brutal police alone.. I didn’t say this is a right thing to do… but you should try to understand the whole incident as well.
Fact 3:Police didn’t follow standard mob breaking procedure. They don’t negotiate, they don’t use a loud speaker. They don’t come in with their club and shield.. They just started firing/throwing a tear gas bomb and some identified explosive grenade. This is heard from several medical team who worked in the area. The police also fired at a medical team as well. The guy fell over and stood up again trying to continue his help other people.
Fact 4: Some police fired at PADs like they are getting to win a Counter Strike or such (so happy face).
Observation 1:Any bloodshed incidents in the Thailand history, there is no single person responsible for this (e.g. sent to jail). And I think Police think that they can get away with this again like in the past.
This is a fair coverage, but you should also report the after event. what have been found and covered.
Please visit my web site for the evident mentioned here.
PAD.VfLY.NET
What happened on 7/10/2008?
Excellent work, as always, Nick.
Thai crisis. Royal silence.
Middle-class battlers for democracy? Hmm. James Ockey in ‘Making Democracy’ describes how many Thais who died in 1992 – led by Chamlong, of course – were poor foot soldiers of the movement. The middle class participated, yes, but here as elsewhere the lives sacrificed to ‘revolution’ in whatever form are usually the workers’.
Not to belittle anyone on the barricades, just a factual point.
“Arunachal Pradesh…exotically yours”
i’m a student of lass 9 reading in AP . I have read what chandan have written and i would say that you non arunachalies need ILP cuz if we let you people cover our ancestors land an let you exploit its potential natural resources then our tribe, our language, our culture and heritage and our states natural flora and fauna will be destroyed !
What happened on 7/10/2008?
– Police had one of their loudspeaker lorries and first issued a warning that protesters should disperse as they would be attacked, and teargas would be fired.
– The protesters did not disperse and soon after the attack started with a barrage of teargas grenades.
– Also the few remaining PAD protesters threw some explosives, maybe firecrackers or their own ping pong bombs.
These line are what was left out from the thai “main stream” media.
======
The reason for these lines are left out because it is not true.
These have been investigated by thai media. All ask questions to police why not warning , why not do this ,why not do that and a lot of things before attack.
Sorry that I can not finish this reading because I feel that this report are not accurate since the beginning.
What happened on 7/10/2008?
c’est dur,
Et nous en France on se plein.
Nous n’avons eu aucun retour au info de se qui c’est passé a Bangkok
pendant les emeutes des anti-gouvernement………
What happened on 7/10/2008?
Nick, thanks for your account, very well written.
I was there in the afternoon from 4.00pm to 6.00pm, mainly keeping safe at the Ratchawiti / Phichai Road intersection, and then I moved back to the Dusit Zoo, standing with the EMS crews.
I saw the harder core PAD roll police paddy wagons to create barricades, and I saw them push coaches / wagons into the side gate of the Parliament Building.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/11401580@N03/sets/72157607842648157/
At one point I saw a PAD guard drive a COACH down Ratchawiti towards the riot police then at the U Thong intersection. My first thought was “this is complete lunacy.”
Fortunately I was nowhere near the front lines at any time, and managed to always stay out of bother.
When the police advanced down Ratchawiti towards the U Thong intersection the police line (Bangkok units) behind us dispersed to allow a safe exit for anyone who wanted to leave. Very wise.
But I can’t say that I saw EFFECTIVE POLICING by the forces who were advancing up the road.
After their first advance the police could have secured the area – as demonstraters had dispersed in fear of the tear gas.
The PAD guards were forced back as far as the side entrance to the Dusit Zoo. The police could have formed secure lines on Thanon Phichai, and Ratchaweti but because they were affected by their own tear gas (few police wearing gas masks) they didn’t.
The police action did not appear to focus on controlling and containing the situation. There didn’t seem to be a strategy to preventing further PAD responses or the tactical competence to enforce any strategy.
What depressed me most was
1. The naivity of many PAD supporters who were wearing inappropriate eye masks, mouth cloths and tee shirts, believing they would be safe, and not realising how dangerous the situation could become.
2. Seeing PAD guards armed with slingshots, golf clubs and so on. And when the PAD gaurds rolled paddy wagons, what I would say would be “normally law abiding citizens” joined in, without consideration for the consequences.
3. Not seeing the police focusing on containing, controlling and using snatch squads to arrest key trouble makers.
Once again, thank you for your account as it helps my understanding of what was happening on the “front lines.”
Thai crisis. Royal silence.
Whatever one may think of them and however flakey their leaders, I personally I think referring to the PAD as “the extreme right”, as R.N. England did is an oversimplification. They represent the city dwellers who are fed up with being governed by corrupt polititicians and big businessmen who are elected by the rural voters. This is a reasonable gripe. Equally PPP certainly doesn’t represent anything approaching a left wing. That doesn’t exist in Thailand where overly powerful and persuasive labor leaders and social activists are regularly murdered and disappear with minimal investigations from the authorities. PPP exists solely to provide material benefits to its politicians. These largely represent the Thai-Chinese middleman class upcountry, e.g. rice millers and money lenders, and big business in the capital. They have no vested interest in sustainably improving the lot of rural voters, any more than the PAD has a vested interest in supporting owners of capital over workers.
The problem is that educating the rural masses is anethema to both sides. Educated rural voters would no longer vote for corrupt PPP politicians and middle class city people fear that educated rural people would no longer settle for poor wages and working conditions. Nevertheless, upgrading the almost worthless public education system upcountry, instead of regarding the Education Ministr as a piggy bank to be plundered at will, is the only long-term solution to Thailand’s social, political and economic woes. Ultimately with a better educated work force Thailand would be better able to compete in highly value added industries and there would be more pie for all to share.
What happened on 7/10/2008?
Good balanced reporting but I think the police and the government need to take responsibility for the use of what seems to be tear gas grenades that can explode with lethal force. It is hard to believe they had never tested these weapons and didn’t know how dangerous they were. If so, they are guilty of negligence anyway, as they are in failing to equip their men with gas masks before a gas attack. They also had much safer American made tear gas at their disposal and could easily have restricted themselves to that. Chinese made weaponery is at any rate normally purchased only to provide big kick backs to top brass not for use, whereas army and police generals know well they need low kick back, high quality American weaponery to actually do the job. The police are lucky they didn’t lose arms in throwing these lethal bombs.
Also suspicious is the use of Border Patrol Police untrained in riot control, instead Metropolitan police units that have theoretically received some basic training in riot control. This also happened in the 1991 massacre, as police chiefs are more confident that BPP men from upcountry, many of whom have never been to Bangkok before, will take orders to fire on Bangkok crowds than city police. BPP habitually patrol with M16s and are accustomed to a para-military role on the border. Therefore use of lethal force comes easier to them.
The attempt to run over a policeman lying on the ground and the use of fire arms by protestors, if they did, are also reprehensible and totally unacceptable.
A way forward for Thai politics?
William:
I am not afraid of cities becoming independent. I merely described the mainstream thinking in public law and administrative circles in Thailand. Moreover, I doubt that turning provinces into elected local governments equates to federalism. It would merely represent a decentralization within the national state’s executive. Such units would not acquire state status.
What happened on 7/10/2008?
I just realized that thai medias,sometimes, are unreliable. I’m thai in upcountry who are trying a lot to find the truth. This article gives me a great look on the situation. Thank you Nick.
What happened on 7/10/2008?
thank you for your excellent reporting
and your dedication to being on the spot when we need you to help us understand whats really happening
We are spirits in the material world…
Glancing at this with tired eyes, I thought your “obscure title” was Madonna’s (that has to be Jao-Mae something) Material Girl, “We are living in a material world, and I am a material girl”.
Looking at the news story from Matichon, I see no sign that this is about elitism, “the attitiude of these high-status Thais to fellow Thais they regard as inferior,” but rather a set of unresolved tensions in Thai society regarding the meaning of people in police and military uniforms. It is interesting to see this come from the supposedly clear-mided people at the royally-identified psychiatry institute. There are many skeletons (in uniform) in the closet, from the 1970s, 1992, and quite recently, that’s where the itch is from, not some non-Western elitism.
In theory, “western armies at war treat wounded enemy soldiers,” but the statement also conjures up a reality of honorable occidentals and the dishonorable rest. That is, it invents a (racialized) social division on a global scale that is analogous to what the PAD and many other players in Thailand are doing on a national scale.
I had never thought that I would take the side of the Thai police in any of these public debates and unrest, but the account of Oct 7 (and other recent PAD stunts) took me somewhere really new. Thanks for the post and more generally.
What happened on 7/10/2008?
Thank you for your report.Outstanding photo’s and good descriptive, well balanced text.
What happened on 7/10/2008?
no loudspeaker for sure. vdo cameras captured all events. police started throwing explosives first. all PAD protesters were scanned for weapons. they had merely handclappers and some sticks.
so don’t distort the situations. be ethical.
What happened on 7/10/2008?
a big thank you for your report
and even a bigger one for being neutral (something we dont see in this banana republic)
What happened on 7/10/2008?
Great job.
There is a lot of discussion on Pantip about the man whose leg got blown off, with many claiming he was an amputee with an artificial leg, and speculation that the injury was probably caused by storing ping-pong grenades inside the artificial leg. A bit surreal, but then again, a lot of what both sides are saying is unbelievable.
What happened on 7/10/2008?
This article is the best i have read regarding the riots or whatever you want to call it. It is really sad that one can only read biased news in Thailand. It totally put my opinion into perspective. Thanks for that.
What happened on 7/10/2008?
Police had one of their loudspeaker lorries and first issued a warning that protesters should disperse as they would be attacked, and teargas would be fired.
… not more than 20 people knew this