I’m Thai (born and raised here) but i cant lie that I dont like the book.
It’s not that all Thais have the same mentality toward the king (and i didnt use capital k)
I wish i could (for im afraid i could be arrested for lase-majesty) say more about our monarchy that leaves little room for us to speak out – actually NO ROOM AT ALL!
I am very sorry – but the bold and uncompromising “The reds started it – Don’t forget!” is the sort of attitude that has made this situation the catastrophe it is. And no, the shooting was not just self defense – because the shooting continued after the main clash in side sois. I know that because i heard the bullets coming out of those dark sois.
A clear fact is, that regardless who “started it” (and there we have different views, because i don’t see yesterday as the start but an escalation) – a solution has to be found so that Thailand does not get damaged even worse. That generally means a compromise, and not adhering to one side’s demands, especially not of a group that has illegally occupied Government House, attacked a TV station, refused lawfully issued arrest warrants, played every dirty and unconstitutional trick – circumventing a constitution that some of their own backers helped to write – which would not be tolerated in any country i am aware off, and would be classified as treason.
Instead of standing there as some sort of a fighter for the nation – you should better start finding a solution – because the solution offered by PAD is obviously not working and acceptable to the legally elected government.
>Are the Red Gaur connected to the red shirts who fought PAD?
Actually, if we’re talking about linkages and historical lineage, the connection would be between the PAD’s thugs and the Red Gaur.
The Red Gaur worked in parallel with the army — especially military intelligence types in the 1973-76 period. Chamlong was active in monitoring (at the least) the left-wing and student movements. Panlop and Manit were in his close circle, though I don’t know for certain exactly what they were doing in 1976. All three are high profile PAD supporters.
I wonder if kuson considers that he might be a pawn in the PAD leaders’ hands? kuson is getting information only from them. Independent news reports are quite different (here I mean from reporters for international agencies). The pro-government side started it? Forget everything that PAD did (even just in the last week) and you can make such a claim.
Kuson: Thanks for the report Kuson – Don’t you think it’s time everyone went home, and allowed a cooling down period for each side to reflect on what is happening?
Other than ‘nganadeeleg’, I have yet to find anyone with a semblance of a possible start of a solution that could bring parties to seriously negotiate between themselves, and, reduce the dangerous tension.
The Thai parliament was given the opportunity to rise to challenge but had failed (no need to point fingers who or which parties share the most blame) the Nation. Samak’s pompous pugnaciousness plus the PAD leaders’ ridiculous stance combine to create a tragedy in the making .
The comical caricatures of the players involved add to the surreal dread we all feel about the events unfolding . . . I feel like unleashing a torrent of laugh to ease my own tension . . . but instead myself cursing at everyone responsible for the deadly serious lunacy that unfolds.
Of course, They, here refer to anyone who are not of the key-ring leaders or of important rank, but a pawn. An expendible, martyrable, insignificant pawn…
I am extremely busy the last week, so please excuse me if i have not read any of the debate other than my name coming up in your comment.
Propensity of violence – the situation is insane, both sides have murder in their eyes.
Yet – yesterday it was only PAD who fired shots, not UDD.
3 UDD guys got killed, and several also injured by gunfire. Shell casings were found at a place that was held by the PAD during the clashes, that was on the opposite side of the road, where i ducked. I believe that i have seen PAD fighters firing guns, but i am not 100% sure.
Later, when PAD sent probing parties into the small side sois, shots were fired as well at UDD fighters from those sois.
Nirmal Gosh also heard bullets whizzing past him, clearly from the PAD camp.
Nobody knows what is going to happen tonight. If there is a new round of fighting, things might easily escalate. The only hope i am having now is that somehow both sides can be persuaded to back down, and not just one side. That also means that without a PAD withdrawal from Government House, there will be no chance for peace.
The Reds Started It – Don’t Forget! As a person who was in the PAD Government House compound at that point in time, let me give you some facts:
1. NPK (Ngor Por Kor or whatever their current name is) aka “Reds” as per their flags and scarfs, started out from Sanam Luang (approx 3-4kms) and attacked PAD position at Makawan Bridge area. As nganadeeleg mentioned, it is not clear yet, but what I heard from the PAD stage reported “15,000 strong, with 5,000 armed with knifes and batons, with Taxis with White Flags and 70 or so motorcycles and Police leading the way”, but clear that the Reds Started the Violence.
2. As it was around midnight and PAD were not in full-power, the news came to abit of a surprise during the Woodstock-Like-PAD Rock Concert stage of this NPK mobilization. PAD leaders sent PAD strong-men to be deployed to the defense positions; PAD protestors (mostly women in their 45-60 year olds ) were told not to be afraid. However, 15 minutes or so later during the tense minutes even though singing rock songs through the teeth [that tense!], Chamlong came to the stage and asked for 300 PAD strong men to reinforce the Makawan Bridge Defenses- which Chamlong led the rally point himself. [I was going to join, but in the process – and a funny aside- was accused of being a NPK spy most likely based on my stature but that’s another story] It was quite nerving at the moment.
3. Some good news came about as the PAD Defenses did repel the NPK attack. I wasn’t there but heard from Friends on the phone that shots were fired (and heard later on TV PAD person admitting it on self-defense, a separate discussion) and to “get the hell out of there” but could not abandon the older woman in the area. Nevertheless, I think with the well prepped defences, at most 101 days trained strong-men/guards, against the mercenery, just-arrived thugs (PPP need to save money, since its 500THB up to 1,000 THB per day they are spending to buy these thugs). PAD did not continue to crush the repelled NPK (heard that Chamlong said defense, not offense).
4. Woodstock-style PAD-style Rock Concert protest continued on in the night, in a much lighter air and jovial mood, with the older ladies pepped up – much different from during the clash moments. Later on the stage and all the way to morning, PAD leaders proclaimed 2 PPP leaders in the area — and most likely linked the NPK to PPP — which could bring PPP down.
I stop here, but just to give you the perspective of whats happening. PAD however controversial they may do, are good people; In fact, during midnight, we did some Buddhist prayers to give Merit to all the advsersaries (Thaksin, Samak, NPK, etc)- merit that they get to realize the wrongdoings and churn out something good. PAD doctors claimed on stage they are bringing the NPK injured to help heal — because the NPK people aren’t bad -but used — all by the root cause of it all – Thaksinism, which they seek to rid.
I hope some of you guys up there also realize, that PAD intent of breaking a door/pushing people to get inside a compound is very different kind of violence of NPK thugs trying to bash PAD with a iron bar (and PAD vice versa in defense).
One thing is certain, Chang Noi has come a long way from being a hard-core supporter of the Jao Pho approach to provincial electoral politics to the “insight” that rural voters are individuals who make rational political decisions when casting their ballots. But, perhaps, this view goes too far into the opposite direction.
The fighting tonight was awful.
Additionally to the report by Nirmal i can say that it is confirmed that PAD used guns. There were shell casings found at the space that was occupied by PAD during the clashes. And i have seen them firing a handgun on the opposite site of the road while i was caught in between the groups, ducking at an entrance of the UN building.
So far, reports are that 3 UDD guys got killed. The country is slowly descending into chaos, and more violence might be coming later.
Once again Prof Thithinan is wisely trying to made his point in search of solutions for this country. Thiland needs a moment of reflection to find out which could be the solution to its future because we all know that to stage a coup is not, to have new elections with the same rules, is not either and the PAD 30% options is undemocratic. A new era needs to be set for a new world. Maybe Thai Academics can lead the way in that reaearch and for sure Prog Thithinan is a front runner.
This time Samak/PPP have had plenty of time & opportunity to calm things down – for whatever reason, they have chosen not to.
(my guess is Thaksin’s spin merchants have had their eye on a different prize)
Karma Blues: OK I accept your point about the prevalence of propaganda (on both sides) and on reflection agree that Thaksin should take much of the blame.
If only he (or his party) had moderated his worse excesses he would probably still be in power, and the country would not be in the mess it currently is!
Rawingwong, it is also time people like Thaksin paid for what they have been stealing from the exchequer for decades. This entire conflict has blown-up because important people here are totally incapable of reining in their own greed. And also because there is no form of punishment allowed against greedy Poo-Yais. Your intelligentsia has completely failed to run the country in a just & equitable manner.
Since the Republican Convention in the U.S. was canceled tonight, I got to watch a documentary on John Adams, 2nd president of the U.S. When he lost his election for a 2nd term to his erstwhile friend Jefferson, in part due to dirty tricks on Jefferson’s part, he was bitter and angry.
And yet, when the day came for transition, he quietly left. The historians commenting on John Adams said that they thought this might have been his greatest contribution to democracy. He gave up his cherished position to a bitter enemy. Democracy was about peaceful transition.
then I went to web and read the news about Thailand.
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The King Never Smiles?
I’m Thai (born and raised here) but i cant lie that I dont like the book.
It’s not that all Thais have the same mentality toward the king (and i didnt use capital k)
I wish i could (for im afraid i could be arrested for lase-majesty) say more about our monarchy that leaves little room for us to speak out – actually NO ROOM AT ALL!
Report on last night’s clash
“BUT THEY STARTED IT!” How childish.
Bleh. Give me a break, both sides.
The Government should be using teargas and batons to restore law and order. PAD leaders should be arrested and the UDD should go home.
Report on last night’s clash
“kusons”
I am very sorry – but the bold and uncompromising “The reds started it – Don’t forget!” is the sort of attitude that has made this situation the catastrophe it is. And no, the shooting was not just self defense – because the shooting continued after the main clash in side sois. I know that because i heard the bullets coming out of those dark sois.
A clear fact is, that regardless who “started it” (and there we have different views, because i don’t see yesterday as the start but an escalation) – a solution has to be found so that Thailand does not get damaged even worse. That generally means a compromise, and not adhering to one side’s demands, especially not of a group that has illegally occupied Government House, attacked a TV station, refused lawfully issued arrest warrants, played every dirty and unconstitutional trick – circumventing a constitution that some of their own backers helped to write – which would not be tolerated in any country i am aware off, and would be classified as treason.
Instead of standing there as some sort of a fighter for the nation – you should better start finding a solution – because the solution offered by PAD is obviously not working and acceptable to the legally elected government.
Another extract from Handley’s TKNS
>Are the Red Gaur connected to the red shirts who fought PAD?
Actually, if we’re talking about linkages and historical lineage, the connection would be between the PAD’s thugs and the Red Gaur.
The Red Gaur worked in parallel with the army — especially military intelligence types in the 1973-76 period. Chamlong was active in monitoring (at the least) the left-wing and student movements. Panlop and Manit were in his close circle, though I don’t know for certain exactly what they were doing in 1976. All three are high profile PAD supporters.
Report on last night’s clash
I wonder if kuson considers that he might be a pawn in the PAD leaders’ hands? kuson is getting information only from them. Independent news reports are quite different (here I mean from reporters for international agencies). The pro-government side started it? Forget everything that PAD did (even just in the last week) and you can make such a claim.
Academic commentary on Thai crisis
I’m reading this as a call for Bhumibol’s abdication…
Report on last night’s clash
Kuson: Thanks for the report Kuson – Don’t you think it’s time everyone went home, and allowed a cooling down period for each side to reflect on what is happening?
Report on last night’s clash
Other than ‘nganadeeleg’, I have yet to find anyone with a semblance of a possible start of a solution that could bring parties to seriously negotiate between themselves, and, reduce the dangerous tension.
The Thai parliament was given the opportunity to rise to challenge but had failed (no need to point fingers who or which parties share the most blame) the Nation. Samak’s pompous pugnaciousness plus the PAD leaders’ ridiculous stance combine to create a tragedy in the making .
The comical caricatures of the players involved add to the surreal dread we all feel about the events unfolding . . . I feel like unleashing a torrent of laugh to ease my own tension . . . but instead myself cursing at everyone responsible for the deadly serious lunacy that unfolds.
Crack down
Thanks Nick. It sounds like a real mess – please keep your head low & be safe.
Thitinan Pongsudhirak on the next stage of brinkmanship
They [the People’s Alliance for Democracy]
Of course, They, here refer to anyone who are not of the key-ring leaders or of important rank, but a pawn. An expendible, martyrable, insignificant pawn…
Crack down
“nganadeeleg”:
I am extremely busy the last week, so please excuse me if i have not read any of the debate other than my name coming up in your comment.
Propensity of violence – the situation is insane, both sides have murder in their eyes.
Yet – yesterday it was only PAD who fired shots, not UDD.
3 UDD guys got killed, and several also injured by gunfire. Shell casings were found at a place that was held by the PAD during the clashes, that was on the opposite side of the road, where i ducked. I believe that i have seen PAD fighters firing guns, but i am not 100% sure.
Later, when PAD sent probing parties into the small side sois, shots were fired as well at UDD fighters from those sois.
Nirmal Gosh also heard bullets whizzing past him, clearly from the PAD camp.
Nobody knows what is going to happen tonight. If there is a new round of fighting, things might easily escalate. The only hope i am having now is that somehow both sides can be persuaded to back down, and not just one side. That also means that without a PAD withdrawal from Government House, there will be no chance for peace.
Report on last night’s clash
The Reds Started It – Don’t Forget! As a person who was in the PAD Government House compound at that point in time, let me give you some facts:
1. NPK (Ngor Por Kor or whatever their current name is) aka “Reds” as per their flags and scarfs, started out from Sanam Luang (approx 3-4kms) and attacked PAD position at Makawan Bridge area. As nganadeeleg mentioned, it is not clear yet, but what I heard from the PAD stage reported “15,000 strong, with 5,000 armed with knifes and batons, with Taxis with White Flags and 70 or so motorcycles and Police leading the way”, but clear that the Reds Started the Violence.
2. As it was around midnight and PAD were not in full-power, the news came to abit of a surprise during the Woodstock-Like-PAD Rock Concert stage of this NPK mobilization. PAD leaders sent PAD strong-men to be deployed to the defense positions; PAD protestors (mostly women in their 45-60 year olds ) were told not to be afraid. However, 15 minutes or so later during the tense minutes even though singing rock songs through the teeth [that tense!], Chamlong came to the stage and asked for 300 PAD strong men to reinforce the Makawan Bridge Defenses- which Chamlong led the rally point himself. [I was going to join, but in the process – and a funny aside- was accused of being a NPK spy most likely based on my stature but that’s another story] It was quite nerving at the moment.
3. Some good news came about as the PAD Defenses did repel the NPK attack. I wasn’t there but heard from Friends on the phone that shots were fired (and heard later on TV PAD person admitting it on self-defense, a separate discussion) and to “get the hell out of there” but could not abandon the older woman in the area. Nevertheless, I think with the well prepped defences, at most 101 days trained strong-men/guards, against the mercenery, just-arrived thugs (PPP need to save money, since its 500THB up to 1,000 THB per day they are spending to buy these thugs). PAD did not continue to crush the repelled NPK (heard that Chamlong said defense, not offense).
4. Woodstock-style PAD-style Rock Concert protest continued on in the night, in a much lighter air and jovial mood, with the older ladies pepped up – much different from during the clash moments. Later on the stage and all the way to morning, PAD leaders proclaimed 2 PPP leaders in the area — and most likely linked the NPK to PPP — which could bring PPP down.
I stop here, but just to give you the perspective of whats happening. PAD however controversial they may do, are good people; In fact, during midnight, we did some Buddhist prayers to give Merit to all the advsersaries (Thaksin, Samak, NPK, etc)- merit that they get to realize the wrongdoings and churn out something good. PAD doctors claimed on stage they are bringing the NPK injured to help heal — because the NPK people aren’t bad -but used — all by the root cause of it all – Thaksinism, which they seek to rid.
I hope some of you guys up there also realize, that PAD intent of breaking a door/pushing people to get inside a compound is very different kind of violence of NPK thugs trying to bash PAD with a iron bar (and PAD vice versa in defense).
Another extract from Handley’s TKNS
Are the Red Gaur connected to the red shirts who fought PAD?
Chang Noi backs the rural constitution
One thing is certain, Chang Noi has come a long way from being a hard-core supporter of the Jao Pho approach to provincial electoral politics to the “insight” that rural voters are individuals who make rational political decisions when casting their ballots. But, perhaps, this view goes too far into the opposite direction.
Report on last night’s clash
The fighting tonight was awful.
Additionally to the report by Nirmal i can say that it is confirmed that PAD used guns. There were shell casings found at the space that was occupied by PAD during the clashes. And i have seen them firing a handgun on the opposite site of the road while i was caught in between the groups, ducking at an entrance of the UN building.
So far, reports are that 3 UDD guys got killed. The country is slowly descending into chaos, and more violence might be coming later.
Thitinan Pongsudhirak on the next stage of brinkmanship
Once again Prof Thithinan is wisely trying to made his point in search of solutions for this country. Thiland needs a moment of reflection to find out which could be the solution to its future because we all know that to stage a coup is not, to have new elections with the same rules, is not either and the PAD 30% options is undemocratic. A new era needs to be set for a new world. Maybe Thai Academics can lead the way in that reaearch and for sure Prog Thithinan is a front runner.
Another extract from Handley’s TKNS
This time Samak/PPP have had plenty of time & opportunity to calm things down – for whatever reason, they have chosen not to.
(my guess is Thaksin’s spin merchants have had their eye on a different prize)
Chang Noi backs the rural constitution
Karma Blues: OK I accept your point about the prevalence of propaganda (on both sides) and on reflection agree that Thaksin should take much of the blame.
If only he (or his party) had moderated his worse excesses he would probably still be in power, and the country would not be in the mess it currently is!
State of Emergency in Bangkok
Rawingwong, it is also time people like Thaksin paid for what they have been stealing from the exchequer for decades. This entire conflict has blown-up because important people here are totally incapable of reining in their own greed. And also because there is no form of punishment allowed against greedy Poo-Yais. Your intelligentsia has completely failed to run the country in a just & equitable manner.
Academic commentary on Thai crisis
Since the Republican Convention in the U.S. was canceled tonight, I got to watch a documentary on John Adams, 2nd president of the U.S. When he lost his election for a 2nd term to his erstwhile friend Jefferson, in part due to dirty tricks on Jefferson’s part, he was bitter and angry.
And yet, when the day came for transition, he quietly left. The historians commenting on John Adams said that they thought this might have been his greatest contribution to democracy. He gave up his cherished position to a bitter enemy. Democracy was about peaceful transition.
then I went to web and read the news about Thailand.