OK now some home truths.
PAD is at last being exposed for it is: a vested interest group of thugs who what to regain some vestige of the past when the military ruled and a government of the people was ineffectual. Midnight University and even factions of the Press Association are condeming PAD. A seminar held over the weekend involved some key academics (some of who are doing an about face after supporting Khor Mor Chor earlier) AT LAST coming out to disagree with PAD. These persons are worthy of naming (excuse my transliteration):
1. Prinya Tewanarumitkun (Law, Thammasat)
2. Nuanoy Trirat (Econ, Chula)
3. Somchai Prichasilapakun (Dean, Law, Chiangmai)
4. Praja Komkiratee (Pol.Sc., Chiangmai)
5. Sutthacahi Yimprasoet (Arts, Chula)
6. Surichai Wan’Keo (Pol.Sc., Chula)
7. Pitchaya Pongsawat (Pol.Sc., Chula)
8. Phairoj Pholphet, Human Rights Commission of Thailand
Further, an example of the bullshit generated against Thaksin and the TRT can be seen by exposing the influential political scientist Chai-Anan Samudavanija a key drafter of the illict 2007 Constitution.
This is from the independent Thai e-news web site. It was Chai-anan who behind Article 7 to appoint a PM outside of the election process and who collected a petition of ninety-five gullible (at the time) academics to present to the king. The king refused. This led to the coup. During the current PPP Government he started again the rumour about the Finland rebellion group intent on bringing the monarchy down and replacing it with a Republican system. This was a spin of huge proportions implicating Thaksin a couple of years back. Chai-anan works for Sondhi Lim and writes for his Manager publication- another opportunity for fiction spin. He supports the 70:30 clause and says that Thailand should not be a nation of full democracy but go backwards to the ancien regime dominated by the kharatchakan (government officials) system. He recently told Thai folk not to worry if there is another coup and to ignore what outsiders say (after all -look at the Philippines or Indonesia!)
Before the election there was a rumour that the military were going to field a political party and- guess what? -Chai-anan was the man who wanted to be the military’s prima donna. According to this article he has even greater personal ambitions (see [email protected]). They run exposé of these people regularly.
nganadeeleg : a compromise has two sides to it. Samak has clearly backed down a number of times. He has ranted and then backed down. He has offered a number of options on constitutional change (at least he talked about options). He allowed ministers to be pushed aside. He got rid of Chalerm. What has been PAD’s contribution to compromise? Haven’t they refused all compromises and demanded just one outcome? And that is their victory?
Well, there is no indication that less money is spent on getting votes. After 1992, with vote-buying condemned, the money went instead for fancy advertising, billboards, and the rest. Noticing some of this while upcountry, it seemed a case of Bangkok people paying other (middle+ class) Bangkok people to make the rest of the country vote for certain candidates or parties.
Clean elections are very much a middle class cultural agenda (among other things). Campaigns against vote-buying “consolidate[d] a conviction among the middle classes that democracy belongs to the middle class, and that the lower classes are incapable of effective participation in a democratic system” (this is from Jim Ockey, 1999:246). There is a long history of exchange-relations as the lubricant and justification for political integration and economic inequality (and exchange is quite central to any social life). There is also a long (Thai, Bangkok) history of discrediting farmers and other lower class Thai people as social actors.
Re the proposal: “A reasonable compromise would be for PAD to withdraw the resignation demand, and Samak & PPP to back away from the constitutional amendment rush.”
Reasonable, yes, and Samak has shown a willingness to do his share of the compromise but PAD have said that if they go home, they have lost. So the issue is how to get PAD to go home (oops, sorry Michael Connors).
Agreed, every country needs “politicians with integrity & humility.” I should add that these should be elected politicians. I guess my point and that also seen in TKNS is that the palace has worked against this – so far.
The interesting thing is how this protest isn’t dependent on the KIO, but rather on NGOs and organizations like the KNG. Are we looking at a Kachin civil society?
The real issue is whether Thaksin will be allowed back with his money. Whether it is PAD or some other organisation, I can’t see this being allowed to happen. The message on Friday was that if the relatively benign PAD leaders are replaced, they will be replaced by more scary leaders. Once again, a workaround has been found for preconceived western notions of democracy.
The issue is not vote-buying, it is the spiralling-cascade-of-subsidies and-handouts-state, that the left-leaning 1976 Thai intellectuals find so natural and promising, that happens when the periphery of a developing state gets control of the central decisionmaking apparatus of the state. South Korea has avoided it. China has avoided it, and prospered with the center’s control over the periphery. That farmer votes count is not the real issue. Votebuying is not the real issue. The issue is whether these votes are in the navigator’s seat in the ship of state and charting the future of the country.
Firstly, please forgive me for hogging the blog with so many posts of late, but I’m getting bored with this hobby and have decided to go out with a flourish.
I normally like Chang Noi, but I am compelled to comment on the following statement:
“The bleating about vote-buying and patronage politics is simply an attempt to undermine electoral democracy because it seems to be working”
If manipulation of the institutions & bureauracy by whomever is in power at any point in time is electoral democracy working, then I would hate to see what it’s like when it’s failing!
Rather than disenfranchise Thailand’s rural masses, I would much prefer for them to become a force for the elimination of corruption in politics by demanding integrity from their political candidates & withholding their vote if they do not demonstrate it.
(and by integrity I do not just mean sticking to their pork barrelling word!)
In electoral democracy the real power lies with the masses – I disagree with Chang Noi that they have used that power wisely!
Dissent can never be eliminated, but if the government had handled things differently (including the proposed constitutional amendments), the PAD would be reduced to just to the level of the usual fringe group that is a mere itch to the government instead of the festering sore that it has become (and is likely to remain).
Thousands of everyday people don’t just endure the hardship of camping out for days, risking their lives for the fun of it – they have genuine concerns which the government could at least have tried to alleviate.
David Brown: I accept many of your points, however these bolded statements do not accord with my recollection of the Thaksin years:
so which do Thais want, corruption they dont know about (Taksin really hurt a lot of powerful people by cleaning up the underground lottery that was a favourite source of income) or corruption they can investigate and deal with?
Investigate anyone except him and his cronies!
the police and Taksin claim most if not all of the killings were within gangs rather than by the police… now the challenge is to engage the justice system to sort out the real story
Thaksin was not interest in real justice – I suggest you go back and look at the way the drug war was conducted!
I must admit I am getting rather bored of hammering away that Thaksin was ‘not as good as it gets’ and was basically more of the same with a few more dangerous characteristics and the new twist that he was also a demagogue.
(no doubt Andrew and a number of other New Mandala contributors will be pleased that I’m thinking of getting a new hobby)
PAD can back down, but their leaders cant(with arrest warrant over their heads). Either they have to create so much chaos that demand amnesty to all or their money run out.
Their last card would be an exchange of ending protest to amnesty.
agreed …. and the amazing thing, even with the stench, is how many Thai people I have met just seem to be enjoying the “sanuk” (entertainment) of seeing a government in trouble and rabble-rousers snubbing their noses at the police
a few dont like the PAD and are aware that democracy is at stake but most seem to ignore the broader picture
very frustrating for someone that basically loves Thailand to see the old traditional respect and subservience in the face of (rich and evil) power still guides Thai lives
PAD will never back down, Jon. Perhaps you are forgetting what triggered this PAD protest in the first place, almost 100 days ago. It wasn’t the constitutional change, that’s for sure.
agreed the date was August 26, time has flown since this all started in February and the current protests in May
tax evasion … he did not pay tax, as far as I know its unproven whether this was legal… just consider the rich in Australia who dont pay tax… so its a matter for the tax department and the legal system not some street rabble/lynch mob
the US government kills lots of people in its war on drugs … the main issue in Thailand is that the drugs business is run by the rich and powerful who are extremely difficult to deal with… it is they who have built up the story about the extra-judicial killings because their business was being hurt…
the police and Taksin claim most if not all of the killings were within gangs rather than by the police… now the challenge is to engage the justice system to sort out the real story
policy corruption is also interesting… the simplistic story is that everything in Thailand is corrupt….
my belief is that the Taksin democratically elected government was more open and transparent than the usual government run by secret corrupt powerful Bangkok elite who do their deals over golf which like the confessional hides all secrets…
so which do Thais want, corruption they dont know about (Taksin really hurt a lot of powerful people by cleaning up the underground lottery that was a favourite source of income) or corruption they can investigate and deal with?
Yes, what the foreign press thinks is very interesting.
But what do the people who live in the country think? What is the reaction among the local media, parliament, academics, and general public?
What is truly amazing is that the foreign press editorialises so much without digging deeper into Thai public opinion. And it is a very complex picture full of contradictory forces and opinions that is continually changing. (Perhaps some order could put to all of it with some rigorous cross-sectional demographic statistics, but the whole situation is dynamic, not static.)
Truehits which monitors Thai newspaper and website traffic put Manager’s traffic at 13,600 visitors on site one day which is more than 27 times the traffic of a typical newspaper at 500. http://truehits.net/index_ranking.php
Even if they’ve lost a lot of their credibility, PAD is still setting the agenda, or as Chamlong is probably thinking, chosen the battefield. They have been successful at forestalling any constitutional amendment and stacking of government institutions that would allow the return of Thaksin avoiding all legal charges against him. Doubt if PAD is just going to suddenly stop, just because they possibly made a strategic mistake, and pushed too hard, too soon.
When Samak or the next PM stops trying to gut the constitution and governing apparatus to serve Thaksin’s interests, only then is there a chance that PAD will back down.
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Describing the People’s Alliance for Democracy
OK now some home truths.
PAD is at last being exposed for it is: a vested interest group of thugs who what to regain some vestige of the past when the military ruled and a government of the people was ineffectual. Midnight University and even factions of the Press Association are condeming PAD. A seminar held over the weekend involved some key academics (some of who are doing an about face after supporting Khor Mor Chor earlier) AT LAST coming out to disagree with PAD. These persons are worthy of naming (excuse my transliteration):
1. Prinya Tewanarumitkun (Law, Thammasat)
2. Nuanoy Trirat (Econ, Chula)
3. Somchai Prichasilapakun (Dean, Law, Chiangmai)
4. Praja Komkiratee (Pol.Sc., Chiangmai)
5. Sutthacahi Yimprasoet (Arts, Chula)
6. Surichai Wan’Keo (Pol.Sc., Chula)
7. Pitchaya Pongsawat (Pol.Sc., Chula)
8. Phairoj Pholphet, Human Rights Commission of Thailand
Further, an example of the bullshit generated against Thaksin and the TRT can be seen by exposing the influential political scientist Chai-Anan Samudavanija a key drafter of the illict 2007 Constitution.
This is from the independent Thai e-news web site. It was Chai-anan who behind Article 7 to appoint a PM outside of the election process and who collected a petition of ninety-five gullible (at the time) academics to present to the king. The king refused. This led to the coup. During the current PPP Government he started again the rumour about the Finland rebellion group intent on bringing the monarchy down and replacing it with a Republican system. This was a spin of huge proportions implicating Thaksin a couple of years back. Chai-anan works for Sondhi Lim and writes for his Manager publication- another opportunity for fiction spin. He supports the 70:30 clause and says that Thailand should not be a nation of full democracy but go backwards to the ancien regime dominated by the kharatchakan (government officials) system. He recently told Thai folk not to worry if there is another coup and to ignore what outsiders say (after all -look at the Philippines or Indonesia!)
Before the election there was a rumour that the military were going to field a political party and- guess what? -Chai-anan was the man who wanted to be the military’s prima donna. According to this article he has even greater personal ambitions (see [email protected]). They run exposé of these people regularly.
Crack down
Would be interested to hear from Nick Nostitz now that the UDD/DAAD mob have entered the fray.
It seems to me that where they go, violence seems to follow.
To me it does not seem like the PAD has the same propensity to violence as does the UDD/DAAD.
Is the difference due to the respective leaders of each group (doubtful in Sondhi’s case), or due to the type of supporter each group attracts?
An extract from Handley’s TKNS
nganadeeleg : a compromise has two sides to it. Samak has clearly backed down a number of times. He has ranted and then backed down. He has offered a number of options on constitutional change (at least he talked about options). He allowed ministers to be pushed aside. He got rid of Chalerm. What has been PAD’s contribution to compromise? Haven’t they refused all compromises and demanded just one outcome? And that is their victory?
An extract from Handley’s TKNS
So the issue is how to get PAD to go home
IF Samak had truly compromised, then tear gas and water cannons would be justified in getting the the PAD to go home.
Chang Noi backs the rural constitution
Well, there is no indication that less money is spent on getting votes. After 1992, with vote-buying condemned, the money went instead for fancy advertising, billboards, and the rest. Noticing some of this while upcountry, it seemed a case of Bangkok people paying other (middle+ class) Bangkok people to make the rest of the country vote for certain candidates or parties.
Clean elections are very much a middle class cultural agenda (among other things). Campaigns against vote-buying “consolidate[d] a conviction among the middle classes that democracy belongs to the middle class, and that the lower classes are incapable of effective participation in a democratic system” (this is from Jim Ockey, 1999:246). There is a long history of exchange-relations as the lubricant and justification for political integration and economic inequality (and exchange is quite central to any social life). There is also a long (Thai, Bangkok) history of discrediting farmers and other lower class Thai people as social actors.
An extract from Handley’s TKNS
Re the proposal: “A reasonable compromise would be for PAD to withdraw the resignation demand, and Samak & PPP to back away from the constitutional amendment rush.”
Reasonable, yes, and Samak has shown a willingness to do his share of the compromise but PAD have said that if they go home, they have lost. So the issue is how to get PAD to go home (oops, sorry Michael Connors).
Still no word from the protector of the nation
Agreed, every country needs “politicians with integrity & humility.” I should add that these should be elected politicians. I guess my point and that also seen in TKNS is that the palace has worked against this – so far.
Chang Noi backs the rural constitution
The problem is that they have learnt to use the vote only too well.
Anyone want to do an academic paper on that?
A very different protest
The interesting thing is how this protest isn’t dependent on the KIO, but rather on NGOs and organizations like the KNG. Are we looking at a Kachin civil society?
Describing the People’s Alliance for Democracy
The real issue is whether Thaksin will be allowed back with his money. Whether it is PAD or some other organisation, I can’t see this being allowed to happen. The message on Friday was that if the relatively benign PAD leaders are replaced, they will be replaced by more scary leaders. Once again, a workaround has been found for preconceived western notions of democracy.
The issue is not vote-buying, it is the spiralling-cascade-of-subsidies and-handouts-state, that the left-leaning 1976 Thai intellectuals find so natural and promising, that happens when the periphery of a developing state gets control of the central decisionmaking apparatus of the state. South Korea has avoided it. China has avoided it, and prospered with the center’s control over the periphery. That farmer votes count is not the real issue. Votebuying is not the real issue. The issue is whether these votes are in the navigator’s seat in the ship of state and charting the future of the country.
Chang Noi backs the rural constitution
Firstly, please forgive me for hogging the blog with so many posts of late, but I’m getting bored with this hobby and have decided to go out with a flourish.
I normally like Chang Noi, but I am compelled to comment on the following statement:
“The bleating about vote-buying and patronage politics is simply an attempt to undermine electoral democracy because it seems to be working”
If manipulation of the institutions & bureauracy by whomever is in power at any point in time is electoral democracy working, then I would hate to see what it’s like when it’s failing!
Rather than disenfranchise Thailand’s rural masses, I would much prefer for them to become a force for the elimination of corruption in politics by demanding integrity from their political candidates & withholding their vote if they do not demonstrate it.
(and by integrity I do not just mean sticking to their pork barrelling word!)
In electoral democracy the real power lies with the masses – I disagree with Chang Noi that they have used that power wisely!
Chang Noi backs the rural constitution
Chang Noi is goddamright!
Hope others will understand the wisdom of his words!
Describing the People’s Alliance for Democracy
Dissent can never be eliminated, but if the government had handled things differently (including the proposed constitutional amendments), the PAD would be reduced to just to the level of the usual fringe group that is a mere itch to the government instead of the festering sore that it has become (and is likely to remain).
Thousands of everyday people don’t just endure the hardship of camping out for days, risking their lives for the fun of it – they have genuine concerns which the government could at least have tried to alleviate.
PAD: fighting the “last war”
David Brown: I accept many of your points, however these bolded statements do not accord with my recollection of the Thaksin years:
so which do Thais want, corruption they dont know about (Taksin really hurt a lot of powerful people by cleaning up the underground lottery that was a favourite source of income) or corruption they can investigate and deal with?
Investigate anyone except him and his cronies!
the police and Taksin claim most if not all of the killings were within gangs rather than by the police… now the challenge is to engage the justice system to sort out the real story
Thaksin was not interest in real justice – I suggest you go back and look at the way the drug war was conducted!
I must admit I am getting rather bored of hammering away that Thaksin was ‘not as good as it gets’ and was basically more of the same with a few more dangerous characteristics and the new twist that he was also a demagogue.
(no doubt Andrew and a number of other New Mandala contributors will be pleased that I’m thinking of getting a new hobby)
Describing the People’s Alliance for Democracy
PAD can back down, but their leaders cant(with arrest warrant over their heads). Either they have to create so much chaos that demand amnesty to all or their money run out.
Their last card would be an exchange of ending protest to amnesty.
PAD: fighting the “last war”
rawingwong,
agreed …. and the amazing thing, even with the stench, is how many Thai people I have met just seem to be enjoying the “sanuk” (entertainment) of seeing a government in trouble and rabble-rousers snubbing their noses at the police
a few dont like the PAD and are aware that democracy is at stake but most seem to ignore the broader picture
very frustrating for someone that basically loves Thailand to see the old traditional respect and subservience in the face of (rich and evil) power still guides Thai lives
Describing the People’s Alliance for Democracy
PAD will never back down, Jon. Perhaps you are forgetting what triggered this PAD protest in the first place, almost 100 days ago. It wasn’t the constitutional change, that’s for sure.
PAD: fighting the “last war”
Re David Brown’s comment: no matter which Sondhi, the stench is overwhelming!
PAD: fighting the “last war”
nganadeeleg , thanks for your comments…..
agreed the date was August 26, time has flown since this all started in February and the current protests in May
tax evasion … he did not pay tax, as far as I know its unproven whether this was legal… just consider the rich in Australia who dont pay tax… so its a matter for the tax department and the legal system not some street rabble/lynch mob
the US government kills lots of people in its war on drugs … the main issue in Thailand is that the drugs business is run by the rich and powerful who are extremely difficult to deal with… it is they who have built up the story about the extra-judicial killings because their business was being hurt…
the police and Taksin claim most if not all of the killings were within gangs rather than by the police… now the challenge is to engage the justice system to sort out the real story
policy corruption is also interesting… the simplistic story is that everything in Thailand is corrupt….
my belief is that the Taksin democratically elected government was more open and transparent than the usual government run by secret corrupt powerful Bangkok elite who do their deals over golf which like the confessional hides all secrets…
so which do Thais want, corruption they dont know about (Taksin really hurt a lot of powerful people by cleaning up the underground lottery that was a favourite source of income) or corruption they can investigate and deal with?
Describing the People’s Alliance for Democracy
Yes, what the foreign press thinks is very interesting.
But what do the people who live in the country think? What is the reaction among the local media, parliament, academics, and general public?
What is truly amazing is that the foreign press editorialises so much without digging deeper into Thai public opinion. And it is a very complex picture full of contradictory forces and opinions that is continually changing. (Perhaps some order could put to all of it with some rigorous cross-sectional demographic statistics, but the whole situation is dynamic, not static.)
Truehits which monitors Thai newspaper and website traffic put Manager’s traffic at 13,600 visitors on site one day which is more than 27 times the traffic of a typical newspaper at 500.
http://truehits.net/index_ranking.php
Even if they’ve lost a lot of their credibility, PAD is still setting the agenda, or as Chamlong is probably thinking, chosen the battefield. They have been successful at forestalling any constitutional amendment and stacking of government institutions that would allow the return of Thaksin avoiding all legal charges against him. Doubt if PAD is just going to suddenly stop, just because they possibly made a strategic mistake, and pushed too hard, too soon.
When Samak or the next PM stops trying to gut the constitution and governing apparatus to serve Thaksin’s interests, only then is there a chance that PAD will back down.