As the king is waiting (and possibly influencing) for either of these two options to materialize – both in disrespect of the December 2007 electoral outcomes – to materialize, he won’t say anything.
I’ve had a look at “Bangkok Pundit’s” website. I believe he (?) is hysterical by predicting “anarchy” (ouch) and suggesting that the PAD may burn down police stations. A reading by Thai native speakers suggests that this is braggadocio, similar to: “I’m so pissed off I’m going to transport them into a world of shit.” You could read it any which way, but it feels like an empty threat.
The king is Head of State. If state institutions are violently attacked in his name he has to step in. Of course you can stick to principles, saying that the king remains above politics. But real character and intelligence become manifest when a statesman (or monarch) is able to follow his human instincts when reacting to crises. And his instincts should tell the king that if he would raise his voice now once and for all in defense of the democratic process and institutions (this time scolding mad nationalists and enemies of electoral politics as much as he chastises democratically elected – if corrupt – politicians) he would not only calm the present situation but would strengthen democracy as a whole for years to come, thus providing the basis for reconciliation. But more likely he will stand idly by and watch, waiting until a State of Emergency is declared and his military friends return back to power. Here’s where his decades-long promotion and defense of Thai-style democracy has led the nation. At least this system has made him the richest and most powerful monarch in the world.
If Samak resigns what would PAD want next?
This is the simplest question that everybody ask and the PAD seem to intentionally left unanswer. Why would not the PAD answer?
Well, my law knowledge is not good enough, but I would hazard a guess that the PAD leaders have a chance now to fight treason charge in court with interpretation. But the minute they officially announce the answer that question, then the intention is clear and their is no fighting chance for treason charge.
to tumbler: ‘collateral damage’ to people who do not share any political views in any way and just want to get on with their lives is an inescapable fact of life. If Tumbler you did NOT vote in any election because you just want to get on with your life, you ARE now paying the price for not making any choice. Next time vote, and vote wisely.
A non-Thaksin proxy? Abhisit would fit the bill.
(right answer?)
PAD will probably not stop until either:
1. Thaksin has been extradited, is in jail, and/or has had his Ample Rich offshore shading dealings untaxed wealth, finally taxed or confiscated outright, or:
2. the apparatus that has been set up for him to return and evade justice, after the constitution has been suitably amended and all the necessary courts and government agencies suitably stacked with loyal functionaries, has been defused and deactivated.
Chamlong Sri Muang isn’t stupid and his background is in the military. At this point he is probably thinking von Clausewitz’s trinity of warfare: 1. probability: street protests as a chaotic affair where you are playing the odds (the fog of war), 2. violence: hasn’t happened yet, sort of reverse war, where you make the other guy throw the first punch, at which point he loses, 3. politics: aggressive street protests as an extension of politics by other means.
Whether it fits into preconceived notions of western electoral politics is besides the point. Many people are fed up with the divide and conquer scheme (Laothomatas “Tale of Two, rural and urban, Democracies”) strategy that Thaksin used to concentrate power in one party, and continues to use, although currently in temporary abeyance…
Your democracy strictly by the numbers is dangerous Andrew Walker and very oppressing. Any criminal opportunist could easily exploit democracy-strictly-by-the-numbers to turn a Thailand into a Marcos-cursed-Philippines, or, even a Mugabe-hyperinflation-ruined-Zimbabwe. Thaksin almost succeeded . . . His proxy Samak thought he could also try.
…and all this then entitles a group of lunatics to destabilise not only the state mechanisms but also the country’s economy, affecting the lives of the vast majority of people who do not share the PAD’s views in any way and just want to get on with their lives?
I would not pretend to fathom what PAD would want next because the answer, I suspect, depends on what type of leader succeeds PM Samak. But PAD succeeds only (to draw the people on its side )because PAD was able to touch on the resentment, anger and distrust of the Thai people against leaders who are blatantly corrupt, or, assume powers to protect corrupt interests.
The difference between you and me Andrew W. is your willingness to overlook the blatantly corrupt and the patently divisive politics of Thaksin and his proxy Samak, merely because of your constipated faith in the majority vote to emancipate the poor and the marginalized Thai villagers. But I hold the view that these Thai poor and these marginalized Thai villagers are in reality being impoverished, marginalized and used/abused by the very same corrupted democracy without accountability.
Your democracy strictly by the numbers is dangerous Andrew Walker and very oppressing. Any criminal opportunist could easily exploit democracy-strictly-by-the-numbers to turn a Thailand into a Marcos-cursed-Philippines, or, even a Mugabe-hyperinflation-ruined-Zimbabwe. Thaksin almost succeeded . . . His proxy Samak thought he could also try.
Lots of people resentment against the Samak government are quickly emerging following the ‘crack down’. Most Thai people already harbor a severe distrust of the corrupt police force and while I admit the riot police handled the anti-government protesters (from TV) with least violence, I was surprised to see my wife jumped angrily cursing the police and Samak when a few incidents showing the police roughing up the protesters were shown.
And the protests are rapidly spreading in the provinces (Phuket, Haadyai) and civil disobedience started by State Railways of Thailand have infected Thai International Airways. Samak’s proxy days are getting shorter.
Proxy Samak Sundaravej is probably going to be booted out of office just like his boss Thaksin Shinawatra, unless Samak finds the good sense to resign now and limit his disgrace.
hrk, thanks for your response to my speculation. ‘…those in power are less afraid of election processes…?’ Couldn’t that mean they feel more assured of victory?
That sodomy is perhaps viewed more as a personal crime than a crime against the state allows for Anwar’s return to public life. The opposite can be said of Thaksin – everyone will remember his corruption (guilty or not) because it allegedly affects the state. Few would immediatly think of Anwar Ibrahim’s corruption because sodomy was used to demonise him primarily in UMNO controlled media. Perhaps, if Anwar Ibrahim’s corruption was weighted more heavily in his demonisation, the Malaysian public would have been more focused on the corruption of other UMNO members.
Sondhi Limthongkul said “If we fail this time, we’ll quit and surrender the country to them. When people don’t care about us, we won’t have to care about them. Let others take over the country.” Who is the PAD holding to ransom? Citizens or subjects? At least if Thaksin Shinawatra was holding Thais to ransom, the victims fell into the category of citizen. Instead Thai political development remains stuck on repeat at ‘the pot calling the kettle black’, and will remain so until demonisation, (like the attempts on Samak’s character at the moment) is unneccessary.
There a few quite crucial difference between the cases. Thaksin had his own party, while Anwar was a member of UMNO, led by Mahathir. Thaksin did win elections, while Anwar did not. Even at present the current government in Malaysia still has a majority, while Keadilan has not. Finally, Thaksin was ousted while holding a majority in parliament through a coup, which means that he was pushed out by means outside of the at that time legal political process. Anwar was pushed out within a legal framework.
The more interesting issue, however, which tells quite a lot about the differences between democracy in Malaysia and Thailand is that Anwar could return into politics through elections, while Thaksin could not. Obviously, those in power in Malaysia are less afraid of election processes then in Thailand.
I am a dog lover. I absolutley adore animals and this made me HATE life. To see that someone would be so cruel and mean as to cut up and eat a dog is just horrible and if they did that in front of me here in the UNITED STATES i would go crazy and if it was up to me i would KILL the person who would hurt a dog and EAT it thats so wrong on many levels and discusting…I was looking up pictures for a report at school and saw these pictures they shouldn’t be posted on the internet AT ALL…
Congratulations to the Thai Foreign Ministry that has become Minhauzen No 2!! Hopefully, there should be less and less fairytale readers left in Thailand.
1. Got a very slim chance of intervention. No bloodshed yet, not even anti-mob confrontation.
2. Slight possibility since Panlop command some soldiers, but they lack momentum due to no bloodshed.
3. Prolong protest would only hurt the PAD, not put blame on the government.
4. This is the obvious choice. Either actual or provoke confrontation.
But Chamlong must be baffle and out of tactic by now, since everytime he took someone on the street(except SET-beer protest). There were either confront or being beat up.
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From the archive on Khmer and other languages
[…] a fun quote on language in Old Cambodge, courtesy of New […]
Still no word from the protector of the nation
…or, if the military won’t step in (Samak seems to be willing, but not Anupong – strange times), Samak will be forced to resign and a royally backed Democrat MP or non-MP PM will be chosen.
http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2008/08/29/headlines/headlines_30081947.php
As the king is waiting (and possibly influencing) for either of these two options to materialize – both in disrespect of the December 2007 electoral outcomes – to materialize, he won’t say anything.
PAD’s “General Uprising of 26 August 2008”
I’ve had a look at “Bangkok Pundit’s” website. I believe he (?) is hysterical by predicting “anarchy” (ouch) and suggesting that the PAD may burn down police stations. A reading by Thai native speakers suggests that this is braggadocio, similar to: “I’m so pissed off I’m going to transport them into a world of shit.” You could read it any which way, but it feels like an empty threat.
Still no word from the protector of the nation
The king is Head of State. If state institutions are violently attacked in his name he has to step in. Of course you can stick to principles, saying that the king remains above politics. But real character and intelligence become manifest when a statesman (or monarch) is able to follow his human instincts when reacting to crises. And his instincts should tell the king that if he would raise his voice now once and for all in defense of the democratic process and institutions (this time scolding mad nationalists and enemies of electoral politics as much as he chastises democratically elected – if corrupt – politicians) he would not only calm the present situation but would strengthen democracy as a whole for years to come, thus providing the basis for reconciliation. But more likely he will stand idly by and watch, waiting until a State of Emergency is declared and his military friends return back to power. Here’s where his decades-long promotion and defense of Thai-style democracy has led the nation. At least this system has made him the richest and most powerful monarch in the world.
Crack down
If Samak resigns what would PAD want next?
This is the simplest question that everybody ask and the PAD seem to intentionally left unanswer. Why would not the PAD answer?
Well, my law knowledge is not good enough, but I would hazard a guess that the PAD leaders have a chance now to fight treason charge in court with interpretation. But the minute they officially announce the answer that question, then the intention is clear and their is no fighting chance for treason charge.
Crack down
There’s only one person who can save us now……. Bernard Trink!
Crack down
to tumbler: ‘collateral damage’ to people who do not share any political views in any way and just want to get on with their lives is an inescapable fact of life. If Tumbler you did NOT vote in any election because you just want to get on with your life, you ARE now paying the price for not making any choice. Next time vote, and vote wisely.
Crack down
“If Samak resigns what would PAD want next?”
A non-Thaksin proxy? Abhisit would fit the bill.
(right answer?)
PAD will probably not stop until either:
1. Thaksin has been extradited, is in jail, and/or has had his Ample Rich offshore shading dealings untaxed wealth, finally taxed or confiscated outright, or:
2. the apparatus that has been set up for him to return and evade justice, after the constitution has been suitably amended and all the necessary courts and government agencies suitably stacked with loyal functionaries, has been defused and deactivated.
Chamlong Sri Muang isn’t stupid and his background is in the military. At this point he is probably thinking von Clausewitz’s trinity of warfare: 1. probability: street protests as a chaotic affair where you are playing the odds (the fog of war), 2. violence: hasn’t happened yet, sort of reverse war, where you make the other guy throw the first punch, at which point he loses, 3. politics: aggressive street protests as an extension of politics by other means.
Whether it fits into preconceived notions of western electoral politics is besides the point. Many people are fed up with the divide and conquer scheme (Laothomatas “Tale of Two, rural and urban, Democracies”) strategy that Thaksin used to concentrate power in one party, and continues to use, although currently in temporary abeyance…
Crack down
Your democracy strictly by the numbers is dangerous Andrew Walker and very oppressing. Any criminal opportunist could easily exploit democracy-strictly-by-the-numbers to turn a Thailand into a Marcos-cursed-Philippines, or, even a Mugabe-hyperinflation-ruined-Zimbabwe. Thaksin almost succeeded . . . His proxy Samak thought he could also try.
…and all this then entitles a group of lunatics to destabilise not only the state mechanisms but also the country’s economy, affecting the lives of the vast majority of people who do not share the PAD’s views in any way and just want to get on with their lives?
Crack down
I would not pretend to fathom what PAD would want next because the answer, I suspect, depends on what type of leader succeeds PM Samak. But PAD succeeds only (to draw the people on its side )because PAD was able to touch on the resentment, anger and distrust of the Thai people against leaders who are blatantly corrupt, or, assume powers to protect corrupt interests.
The difference between you and me Andrew W. is your willingness to overlook the blatantly corrupt and the patently divisive politics of Thaksin and his proxy Samak, merely because of your constipated faith in the majority vote to emancipate the poor and the marginalized Thai villagers. But I hold the view that these Thai poor and these marginalized Thai villagers are in reality being impoverished, marginalized and used/abused by the very same corrupted democracy without accountability.
Your democracy strictly by the numbers is dangerous Andrew Walker and very oppressing. Any criminal opportunist could easily exploit democracy-strictly-by-the-numbers to turn a Thailand into a Marcos-cursed-Philippines, or, even a Mugabe-hyperinflation-ruined-Zimbabwe. Thaksin almost succeeded . . . His proxy Samak thought he could also try.
Crack down
So what then Matty? If Samak resigns what would PAD want next?
Crack down
Lots of people resentment against the Samak government are quickly emerging following the ‘crack down’. Most Thai people already harbor a severe distrust of the corrupt police force and while I admit the riot police handled the anti-government protesters (from TV) with least violence, I was surprised to see my wife jumped angrily cursing the police and Samak when a few incidents showing the police roughing up the protesters were shown.
And the protests are rapidly spreading in the provinces (Phuket, Haadyai) and civil disobedience started by State Railways of Thailand have infected Thai International Airways. Samak’s proxy days are getting shorter.
Proxy Samak Sundaravej is probably going to be booted out of office just like his boss Thaksin Shinawatra, unless Samak finds the good sense to resign now and limit his disgrace.
PAD’s “General Uprising of 26 August 2008”
[…] XHTML ← PAD’s “General Uprising of 26 August 2008″ […]
Sodomy, demonisation and politics in Southeast Asia
hrk, thanks for your response to my speculation. ‘…those in power are less afraid of election processes…?’ Couldn’t that mean they feel more assured of victory?
That sodomy is perhaps viewed more as a personal crime than a crime against the state allows for Anwar’s return to public life. The opposite can be said of Thaksin – everyone will remember his corruption (guilty or not) because it allegedly affects the state. Few would immediatly think of Anwar Ibrahim’s corruption because sodomy was used to demonise him primarily in UMNO controlled media. Perhaps, if Anwar Ibrahim’s corruption was weighted more heavily in his demonisation, the Malaysian public would have been more focused on the corruption of other UMNO members.
Sondhi Limthongkul said “If we fail this time, we’ll quit and surrender the country to them. When people don’t care about us, we won’t have to care about them. Let others take over the country.” Who is the PAD holding to ransom? Citizens or subjects? At least if Thaksin Shinawatra was holding Thais to ransom, the victims fell into the category of citizen. Instead Thai political development remains stuck on repeat at ‘the pot calling the kettle black’, and will remain so until demonisation, (like the attempts on Samak’s character at the moment) is unneccessary.
Lunch?
Strange to see suburban Americans popping up on New Mandala on their road to discovering that the world is much bigger than their state.
No offense, but these types of people (American or not) make me laugh. Welcome to the interweb.
Sodomy, demonisation and politics in Southeast Asia
There a few quite crucial difference between the cases. Thaksin had his own party, while Anwar was a member of UMNO, led by Mahathir. Thaksin did win elections, while Anwar did not. Even at present the current government in Malaysia still has a majority, while Keadilan has not. Finally, Thaksin was ousted while holding a majority in parliament through a coup, which means that he was pushed out by means outside of the at that time legal political process. Anwar was pushed out within a legal framework.
The more interesting issue, however, which tells quite a lot about the differences between democracy in Malaysia and Thailand is that Anwar could return into politics through elections, while Thaksin could not. Obviously, those in power in Malaysia are less afraid of election processes then in Thailand.
Lunch?
I am a dog lover. I absolutley adore animals and this made me HATE life. To see that someone would be so cruel and mean as to cut up and eat a dog is just horrible and if they did that in front of me here in the UNITED STATES i would go crazy and if it was up to me i would KILL the person who would hurt a dog and EAT it thats so wrong on many levels and discusting…I was looking up pictures for a report at school and saw these pictures they shouldn’t be posted on the internet AT ALL…
Forbes, the Bangkok Post and the conversation of the day
Congratulations to the Thai Foreign Ministry that has become Minhauzen No 2!! Hopefully, there should be less and less fairytale readers left in Thailand.
A PAD strategy?
1. Got a very slim chance of intervention. No bloodshed yet, not even anti-mob confrontation.
2. Slight possibility since Panlop command some soldiers, but they lack momentum due to no bloodshed.
3. Prolong protest would only hurt the PAD, not put blame on the government.
4. This is the obvious choice. Either actual or provoke confrontation.
But Chamlong must be baffle and out of tactic by now, since everytime he took someone on the street(except SET-beer protest). There were either confront or being beat up.
Genius at work
By all means make fun of the parents and grandparents, but let’s spare the poor children.