Nganadeeleg, Do you really think a common morality that condones extra-judicial killings will result in making the system any better?
No, because they’re extra-judicial. However, I wouldn’t really call the drug ‘war’, if that is what you are talking about, a case for common morality, because of the diverse opinions on the subject amongst Thai citizens.
I suppose you guys will now have to start justifying Thaksin’s decision to run away from the courts, and of course it will have had nothing to do his being guilty on any counts.
I’m not justifying the actions of Thaksin at all. I’m justifying the observance of an ideal system of governance despite its practical flaws.
I can hear it now: The system is flawed, so why should one person be singled out? (especially if the person being challenged is somebody you like, or a somebody who opposes someone you do not like)
I prefer a system where all are subject to the rule of law, and the path to getting a better system involves taking down high fliers which serves as a deterrent to all in future – precedents have to start somewhere.
matty, indirectly voted out at the legislative election.
Are you a sensationalist writer for The Nation? I think Nick is saying that there are inconsistencies in justice. You’re dramatizing semantics. I specifically condemn this preposterous behaviour!!!
Thanks for this account Nick.
I am relieved to see that while there are violent elements in the UDD (the ability to beat the police attack three times! Impressive!), there are others who favor peaceful protests, urging others to stop attacking, stop throwing stones etc. And it is this group that could be engaged with in open public forums (I won’t be surprised to find a few of my old friends in there!).
What I never really got is why protest in front of PMPrem’s residence (What is the real purpose here of UDD’s leaders? What evidence do they have that PMPrem was really behind the coup?). GenSonthi and the CNS were the coupmakers. Why not protest in front of parliament and demand PMSurayud’s government to resign and CNS to return democracy to the people? Camp there until PMSurayud/CNS gives in (or until the nearby school files a complaint). At least that’s what the PAD did in a comparable situation (or past protestors against coup governments).
Is it for the lack of funding? They can’t afford to camp for months waiting for a violent crackdown from the security forces that will prove to the world the violent, powerhungry bunch the military coupmakers really are and prepare the comeback for the hero of Thai democracy? So they went for broke at PMPrem’s residence?
If the PAD attacked PMThaksin’s house, that may be more comparable to UDD’s on PMPrem’s. In contrast, the PAD always used neutral venues, from SuanLum, Siam, Sanam Luang, Thammasat, in front of parliament, at Udon’s city center. The UDD also seemed to have a tendency to follow PAD around – they seem to like to get personal (throw bottles/rocks, show private parts, violently gang on as in Udon)???
What you’ve merely shown us is that there are elements in UDD that are against violence – but it probably doesn’t do much to change the broad perception of the UDD, ‘misrepresented’ (to put it mildly) by violent actions already committed by the few? The many?
“Please don’t try to make out as if Thailand was all nice and dandy before Thaksin decided to stand for elections.”
It wasn’t “all nice and dandy” Nick – but it was much nicer from my many Pre-Thaksin decades in Thailand. And it was certainly looking very bright for the country after the passage of the 1997 Constitution until he came along (and , to be fair, he was great in his first 1-2 years ofcourse, DREAM TEAM cabinet line up, great policies, quick action etc.). Besides, I’ve never seen so many angry fellow countrymen in my life – both for and against the one and only PMThaksin. He was a truly unique politician/phenomenon. Honestly Nick, I do miss the good old days – but I also honestly believe that a (truly) post-Thaksin Thailand will become a much better place.
Thai society, and its components/stakeholders, has always changed since I remember and is still changing – even the military has changed (the police probably changed least unfortunately)…
Khun Manning, so the judiciary should behave like it did in 2001 assets concealment case? A justly treatment for you is to see all the crimes and abuses as a long series of “honest mistakes”? Besides, what unjust treatment are you talking about? He’s not in jail is he?
No, justice meted out to the rich and poor is still starkly different. There are many innocent victims of PMThaksin’s War on Drugs who will NEVER see justice. PMThaksin got a fair trial and then he was ALLOWED to flee.
Thad #12, I agree with AjarnThitinan – but I am certain the politicians of any color will continue many of PMThaksin’s policies (even the Democrats), especially as they are now guaranteed vote winners. So Thai society will have it both ways, PMThaksin is ‘seen’ to be punished (but not really – unless they also seize his assets that is) and his better policies continued.
And as I have always suspected (re past postings), that it is PMSamak who is the master manipulater here. The aging, Master Politician has, at the end of the day, got the better of PMThaksin. He has realized his 40 year old dream of becoming PM without having to invest a cent – and has now gained significant political capital in the PPP government from scratch. PMThaksin seemed to have forgotten that PMSamak is fully aware that his is a one-term prime minister – so he will stretch this as long as he could and would not work to PMThaksin’s impatience. All PMSamak has done through the years is say the right things – like the verbal bashings of the PAD and the courts. I hope, for the sake of the country, that he can do better now that PMThaksin has retreated (hopefully permanently) and now that the judiciary has set precedents on how lawmakers who break the law will be dealt with.
What we need now are brave reformers – policians, bureaucrats, civic society – to reform the police and military (and also education). Is PMSamak up to the task – or do we have to wait for the next election?
I am glad Nick N. bristles at the suggestion of ‘exonerating’ Thaksin for his crimes against the Thai nation (btw Nick: which particular Thaksin crime, and Thaksin had committed numerous, you think unpardonable and unconscionable?). We agree therefore Nick that Thaksin & Potjaman and his cronies, along with other non-TRT men including Vatana etc., should be punished to the full letter of the law, ok?
You did make an accusation to the effect that “many crimes that are attributed to Thaksin have in equal measure been committed/collaborated in/initiated by many others, and are neither mentioned nor prosecuted.” Now that is a big accusation and for your accusation to really have any weight, you have to be more specific and you have to give names and circumstances.
Because I specifically condemn this preposterousness that Thaksin Shinawatra should not be prosecuted for corruption, tax evasion, conflict of interest, malfeasance, extra-judicial exuberance, and speed driving (among a few) because many other Thais guilty of similar offenses somehow still remain scot-free and untouched.
If that is your line of logic Nick N and many others, it just won’t hold anywhere. Because Nick N you are just again broken-record repeat playing the Thaksin lame defense that he is no more corrupt or dishonest than the next Thai businessman or politician.
No siree Mr. Nick! Mr. Thaksin is a class all by himself, when all Thaksin excesses are counted all together or singly by itself. If Mr. Thaksin now appears to be receiving “special judicial attention” is because after all Mr. Thaksin was formerly Thai PM (a failure as a role model) and because being in a unique criminal class all by himself invited all this special Thai judicial scrutiny. In short: Thaksin invited all these Thai judicial attention on himself and his family.
Colum: you did mention in your Taiwan example that the politico bad apple Chen Shui-Bien was VOTED OUT. Yes, I agree with you that Taiwan’s political system seems to be working.
Your system of following the herd works for a while but when an unforseen event or black swan pops up you and the herd lose bigtime, probably with all previous profits going too.
karmablues, you say: Agreed. It’s called a system of checks and balances. And thus Thaksin’s sabotage of all checks and balances, his absolute parliamentary dominance, his undermining of independent bodies, his bribery of the courts, his buying off the media caused the system to malfunction to the detriment of the people, i.e. Thaksin’s immoral decisions could be wielded at will with impunity leading to the gross violations of human rights on extraordinary scale and the rampant corruption in government.
If the people who make up the greasy pole valued democratic systems of governance, they would have had no need to overthrow him and the whole system. The system would have evolved empirically due to Thai citizens experience with Thaksin. After the coup, that system was unable to evolve because it no longer existed – not because it was inadequate. Instead there were greasy pole cronies designing a new constitution which, so far, hasn’t really allowed for the evolution of Thai politics because the experience of elites having an overriding control keeps perpetuating itself.
we cannot talk about “maintenance of a democratic system” when there wasn’t a real democracy in Thailand during Thaksin. In fact, it was his immorality which led Thailand down an authoritarian path. As the Times put it aptly (describing what they say is the views of millions of Thais), “Thaksin demolished Thai democracy; the tanks rolled in over its ruins.” Now this time, the tanks won’t be rolling in and it is a time to start rebuilding democracy in Thailand.
Who are you to say there wasn’t real democracy in Thailand under Thaksin? One citizen? A democracy is subjective and isn’t static, you could similarly say the USA doesn’t have a real democracy under Bush. You are the one saying there wasn’t democracy under Thaksin, so I guess you’d be partly responsible for that since you know what a real democracy is. This time the tanks won’t be rolling in? Why not? Experience suggests otherwise! Who controls the tanks? Who has the balance of power in Thailand? Until an elected government has more power over the military than the military commanders, then you can’t assure anything.
It was well known that Thaksin had deliberately, through his enormous wealth, developed close relations (i.e. “climbed the greasy pole”) with the male heir. It is also widely recognized that the better heir would be the female one (who is Prem’s favoured choice) particularly because she obviously scores much much higher in terms of morals.
Good for Thaksin. He could have been voted out last year and Thailand could have moved on. If Thaksin is your devil, stop telling everyone else so he’s theirs too.
matty, ‘Pick any political system in Asia’
Look at the politics of Taiwan over the last 3 years. Taiwan has had the same constitution in-tact for the last 17 years! Chen Shui-Bien is a criminal, remained briefly in power, was voted out and yet the system was maintained and Taiwanese politics moved on with it’s people potentially wiser. Sure there are faults in democratic systems, but citizens are there to iron them out – not elites who throw away the shirt altogether and irrationally buy a new one designed by their good friends.
Where have i “exonerated” Thaksin? This statement is pure conjecture from your side. I vehemently reject such impolite accusations.
I have pointed out that many crimes that are attributed to Thaksin have in equal measure been committed/collaborated in/initiated by many others, and are neither mentioned nor prosecuted. And i reason that therefore an enabling system is primarily to blame.
I also point out that during Thaksin’s government also substantial improvements were initiated, besides the obvious failures.
Thaksin should be prosecuted, but only together with the aforementioned. If Thaksin alone is blamed, than all this is an entirely fruitless exercise that achieves nothing else than whitewashing and justifying this system that has been in place long before Thaksin played any role.
If you are of the opinion that Thaksin was the sole “Maestro” – then you make a fundamental mistake of thought. You ignore the nature of Thai politics, of which TRT was symbolic, you ignore the nature of the informal power networks and their inner workings, you ignore the core mechanics of Thai society, and you ignore history.
Pick any advanced democratic system, and it does work somewhat, regardless of the respective moralities of their elected leaders, can bounce back from a “bad” leader. Thailand never worked along those lines, not before Thaksin, not during Thaksin’s government, not now, and it will not unless the enabling system, that is far greater than one elected prime minister, is modernized into a more egalitarian system.
I still fail to see how Nick’s broken-record repeating “faulty or imperfect Thai political system” exonerates Thaksin?
Pick any political system in Asia or around the world and flaws and faults easily manifest themselves. And many worldly political leaders distinguish themselves despite the system flaws. And just as many unethical flawed leaders unleash their totalitarian, kleptomaniac and psychopathic bent (while championing the poor and democracy of course) even in more perfect systems.
Nah! I won’t blame Thailand’s flawed system nor the Thai elite for Thaksin’s downfall. Thaksin’s undoing was his, and his responsibility alone. And those equally unethical, unprincipled and kleptomaniac gang of ‘yes’ TRT men Thaksin assembled do too share the blame but the Maestro was Thaksin, and no one else.
I wish i could be so sure. These protests were handled much better than the ones in Burma. But ’76 and ’92 were handled with utter brutality, and so was the 2003 drug war. I believe the difference is not in the nature of the people, but structural.
Let’s wait and see what the future brings us here in Thailand. I am afraid that there is a slight chance that one day you may have to reverse your position on Thailand.
If you look at the wars in former Yugoslavia, or the Nazi times in Germany, you can see that supposedly civilized people of supposedly civilized cultures can descend into the same brutalities.
In the end, people are the same – we all have the potential to behave in rather uncivilized ways. To some degree it is up to us to decide, and to some degree circumstances limit our ability to decide.
By the way, i very much admire your contributions on violence in Burma. This is a very refreshing perspective and extremely educating to read a viewpoint that breaks with the mostly politically correct simplistic views that dominate the public debate.
It was an eyeopener for me, when i had the opportunity to travel through Wa State with an official journalist’s visa, and had to spend lots of time with our MI escorts. I did find very complex human beings behind the positions they held in this nightmare of a system. Especially after we got drunk together at the end of our journey, many layers of this system fell away.
Things are never as simple as many people make it out to be, especially not in Burma.
Nothing new about this article. It just confirmed, what had been known long before and general knowledge, that there were certainly lots of disturbing, negative and unacceptable ISSUES concerning Thaksin, his cronies, and his gang during Thaksin’s rule.
So what’s the beef? Many of those issues singly by themselves justified the criminal prosecution of Thaksin, despite Thaksin’s popularity and majority vote handed to his disgraced TRT party.
Readers following President Bush’s recent visit to Thailand will want to read this personal reflection from Aung Zaw, the editor of The Irrawaddy. Aung Zaw, and other Burmese “activists”, ate with the President during his stay in Bangkok. The resulting article is well worth a look.
The first-hand accounts given here are really outrageous. Recently I read a book entitled “The Glass Palace” by Amitav Ghosh and had some sense of things happening in Burma, but the stuff I read here makes me cringe in disgust. Another book I read a year back is Khalid Hosseni’s “The Kite Runner” and there are descriptions of stark atrocities perpetrated by Talibans. Whiter civilisation?
The system was faulty long before Thaksin played any role in Thai politics. Thaksin’s rise was only a logical result of the structural weaknesses, and not their originator. Thaksin’s ouster by an elitist coup was another logical result of those inherent weaknesses, and the present witch hunt won’t change a thing.
Please don’t try to make out as if Thailand was all nice and dandy before Thaksin decided to stand for elections.
You may concentrate on the human rights violations, but it should be clear by now that there simply is no will to fully investigate and prosecute the drug war killings. The military government’s sham investigations have made sure of obscuring what happened there.
A full investigation into the drug war killings would be a start, but this won’t happen the same way as a full investigation into ’76 and it’s aftermath hasn’t happened, and the investigation into ’92 is still kept secret.
The results of such investigations could possibly damage the system beyond repair. Such is the devil’s circle that Thailand has maneuvered itself into over the course of the last decades.
From the George Bush’s economic sanctions to the Laura Bush’s celebrated visit to Mae Sot, the noises from the United States of America concerning Burma are getting louder and louder and louder as the Burmese generals cleverly play the geopolitical game between China and India.
I just pray that poor Burma will not become another pawn in the US of A’s grand plan to contain China from becoming a superpower, like what US did to Vietnam in the sixties to contain the spread of communism in SE Asia.
Americans used the domino effect theory to justify US actions then. Which theory they’re gonna use it now, Yum Cha theory, ha ha?
I mean this long paper is interesting and gives informations (particularily about religion, this angle is often ignored) and how the campaign against Thaksin did evolve.
But, as usual, it fails to go to the point.
The real question is : why ?
Why “three major national institutions – nation, religion and monarchy – had conspired together to form the core opposition.” ?
To write such story without talking about… the succession issue, and the very existence (and its form) of the thai monarchy after Rama IX, is a little bit … disappointing.
I often feel frustrated when I read papers written by thai academics. They never go to the point.
I was actualy present when the coup took place. What an event that was. it was a bloodless coup . i did not even know it was taking place !!! . thats how peacefull it was . What i will say is that it is a terrible shame to see a great country like thailand with great potential to become a a finanacial power house , go down the path it has. Geographicaly thailand is positioned half way between europe , north America and Australia. The work ethic in Thailand as far as i know is first rate. So as i was saying , great posibilities exist in thailand. I had no idea untill now , how monarchy and government allways seem to come , head to head and lock horns. ( so to speak) , would it be a good idea to go back to monarchy rule , due to the fact that many thai people revere the king. JUST AN IDEA.
in politics one must be sure that a system can be maintained and functional for all citizens in spite of the moral dispositions of whoever is at the head of the system.
Agreed. It’s called a system of checks and balances. And thus Thaksin’s sabotage of all checks and balances, his absolute parliamentary dominance, his undermining of independent bodies, his bribery of the courts, his buying off the media caused the system to malfunction to the detriment of the people, i.e. Thaksin’s immoral decisions could be wielded at will with impunity leading to the gross violations of human rights on extraordinary scale and the rampant corruption in government.
this means that the maintenance of a democratic system takes precedence over the moral capacity of it’s leader.
we cannot talk about “maintenance of a democratic system” when there wasn’t a real democracy in Thailand during Thaksin. In fact, it was his immorality which led Thailand down an authoritarian path. As the Times put it aptly (describing what they say is the views of millions of Thais), “Thaksin demolished Thai democracy; the tanks rolled in over its ruins.” Now this time, the tanks won’t be rolling in and it is a time to start rebuilding democracy in Thailand.
The state must be owned by all who live in it, and not blinkered to a few hereditary elites and those who wish to climb the greasy pole
It was well known that Thaksin had deliberately, through his enormous wealth, developed close relations (i.e. “climbed the greasy pole”) with the male heir. It is also widely recognized that the better heir would be the female one (who is Prem’s favoured choice) particularly because she obviously scores much much higher in terms of morals.
Now, in a scenario where Thaksin was to stay in power, and the male heir ascends the throne, how would they joining hands in their “common morality” (or more accurately, common immorality) bode well for the future of Thailand?
Thank you, Jim Taylor, for your perceptive comment. I happen to agree that Mr. Thaksin is being unjustly treated. It makes me worry about the lopsided Thai mentality.
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PAD – ready for violence
Nganadeeleg, Do you really think a common morality that condones extra-judicial killings will result in making the system any better?
No, because they’re extra-judicial. However, I wouldn’t really call the drug ‘war’, if that is what you are talking about, a case for common morality, because of the diverse opinions on the subject amongst Thai citizens.
I suppose you guys will now have to start justifying Thaksin’s decision to run away from the courts, and of course it will have had nothing to do his being guilty on any counts.
I’m not justifying the actions of Thaksin at all. I’m justifying the observance of an ideal system of governance despite its practical flaws.
I can hear it now: The system is flawed, so why should one person be singled out? (especially if the person being challenged is somebody you like, or a somebody who opposes someone you do not like)
I prefer a system where all are subject to the rule of law, and the path to getting a better system involves taking down high fliers which serves as a deterrent to all in future – precedents have to start somewhere.
Good.
PAD – ready for violence
matty, indirectly voted out at the legislative election.
Are you a sensationalist writer for The Nation? I think Nick is saying that there are inconsistencies in justice. You’re dramatizing semantics. I specifically condemn this preposterous behaviour!!!
Law and Order: New Mandala Unit
Revisiting the Prem compound clashes
Thanks for this account Nick.
I am relieved to see that while there are violent elements in the UDD (the ability to beat the police attack three times! Impressive!), there are others who favor peaceful protests, urging others to stop attacking, stop throwing stones etc. And it is this group that could be engaged with in open public forums (I won’t be surprised to find a few of my old friends in there!).
What I never really got is why protest in front of PMPrem’s residence (What is the real purpose here of UDD’s leaders? What evidence do they have that PMPrem was really behind the coup?). GenSonthi and the CNS were the coupmakers. Why not protest in front of parliament and demand PMSurayud’s government to resign and CNS to return democracy to the people? Camp there until PMSurayud/CNS gives in (or until the nearby school files a complaint). At least that’s what the PAD did in a comparable situation (or past protestors against coup governments).
Is it for the lack of funding? They can’t afford to camp for months waiting for a violent crackdown from the security forces that will prove to the world the violent, powerhungry bunch the military coupmakers really are and prepare the comeback for the hero of Thai democracy? So they went for broke at PMPrem’s residence?
If the PAD attacked PMThaksin’s house, that may be more comparable to UDD’s on PMPrem’s. In contrast, the PAD always used neutral venues, from SuanLum, Siam, Sanam Luang, Thammasat, in front of parliament, at Udon’s city center. The UDD also seemed to have a tendency to follow PAD around – they seem to like to get personal (throw bottles/rocks, show private parts, violently gang on as in Udon)???
What you’ve merely shown us is that there are elements in UDD that are against violence – but it probably doesn’t do much to change the broad perception of the UDD, ‘misrepresented’ (to put it mildly) by violent actions already committed by the few? The many?
PAD – ready for violence
“Please don’t try to make out as if Thailand was all nice and dandy before Thaksin decided to stand for elections.”
It wasn’t “all nice and dandy” Nick – but it was much nicer from my many Pre-Thaksin decades in Thailand. And it was certainly looking very bright for the country after the passage of the 1997 Constitution until he came along (and , to be fair, he was great in his first 1-2 years ofcourse, DREAM TEAM cabinet line up, great policies, quick action etc.). Besides, I’ve never seen so many angry fellow countrymen in my life – both for and against the one and only PMThaksin. He was a truly unique politician/phenomenon. Honestly Nick, I do miss the good old days – but I also honestly believe that a (truly) post-Thaksin Thailand will become a much better place.
Thai society, and its components/stakeholders, has always changed since I remember and is still changing – even the military has changed (the police probably changed least unfortunately)…
PAD and the Democrats will miss Thaksin
Khun Manning, so the judiciary should behave like it did in 2001 assets concealment case? A justly treatment for you is to see all the crimes and abuses as a long series of “honest mistakes”? Besides, what unjust treatment are you talking about? He’s not in jail is he?
No, justice meted out to the rich and poor is still starkly different. There are many innocent victims of PMThaksin’s War on Drugs who will NEVER see justice. PMThaksin got a fair trial and then he was ALLOWED to flee.
Thad #12, I agree with AjarnThitinan – but I am certain the politicians of any color will continue many of PMThaksin’s policies (even the Democrats), especially as they are now guaranteed vote winners. So Thai society will have it both ways, PMThaksin is ‘seen’ to be punished (but not really – unless they also seize his assets that is) and his better policies continued.
And as I have always suspected (re past postings), that it is PMSamak who is the master manipulater here. The aging, Master Politician has, at the end of the day, got the better of PMThaksin. He has realized his 40 year old dream of becoming PM without having to invest a cent – and has now gained significant political capital in the PPP government from scratch. PMThaksin seemed to have forgotten that PMSamak is fully aware that his is a one-term prime minister – so he will stretch this as long as he could and would not work to PMThaksin’s impatience. All PMSamak has done through the years is say the right things – like the verbal bashings of the PAD and the courts. I hope, for the sake of the country, that he can do better now that PMThaksin has retreated (hopefully permanently) and now that the judiciary has set precedents on how lawmakers who break the law will be dealt with.
What we need now are brave reformers – policians, bureaucrats, civic society – to reform the police and military (and also education). Is PMSamak up to the task – or do we have to wait for the next election?
PAD – ready for violence
I am glad Nick N. bristles at the suggestion of ‘exonerating’ Thaksin for his crimes against the Thai nation (btw Nick: which particular Thaksin crime, and Thaksin had committed numerous, you think unpardonable and unconscionable?). We agree therefore Nick that Thaksin & Potjaman and his cronies, along with other non-TRT men including Vatana etc., should be punished to the full letter of the law, ok?
You did make an accusation to the effect that “many crimes that are attributed to Thaksin have in equal measure been committed/collaborated in/initiated by many others, and are neither mentioned nor prosecuted.” Now that is a big accusation and for your accusation to really have any weight, you have to be more specific and you have to give names and circumstances.
Because I specifically condemn this preposterousness that Thaksin Shinawatra should not be prosecuted for corruption, tax evasion, conflict of interest, malfeasance, extra-judicial exuberance, and speed driving (among a few) because many other Thais guilty of similar offenses somehow still remain scot-free and untouched.
If that is your line of logic Nick N and many others, it just won’t hold anywhere. Because Nick N you are just again broken-record repeat playing the Thaksin lame defense that he is no more corrupt or dishonest than the next Thai businessman or politician.
No siree Mr. Nick! Mr. Thaksin is a class all by himself, when all Thaksin excesses are counted all together or singly by itself. If Mr. Thaksin now appears to be receiving “special judicial attention” is because after all Mr. Thaksin was formerly Thai PM (a failure as a role model) and because being in a unique criminal class all by himself invited all this special Thai judicial scrutiny. In short: Thaksin invited all these Thai judicial attention on himself and his family.
Colum: you did mention in your Taiwan example that the politico bad apple Chen Shui-Bien was VOTED OUT. Yes, I agree with you that Taiwan’s political system seems to be working.
Interview with Professor Duncan McCargo
Hla Oo
Your system of following the herd works for a while but when an unforseen event or black swan pops up you and the herd lose bigtime, probably with all previous profits going too.
PAD – ready for violence
karmablues, you say: Agreed. It’s called a system of checks and balances. And thus Thaksin’s sabotage of all checks and balances, his absolute parliamentary dominance, his undermining of independent bodies, his bribery of the courts, his buying off the media caused the system to malfunction to the detriment of the people, i.e. Thaksin’s immoral decisions could be wielded at will with impunity leading to the gross violations of human rights on extraordinary scale and the rampant corruption in government.
If the people who make up the greasy pole valued democratic systems of governance, they would have had no need to overthrow him and the whole system. The system would have evolved empirically due to Thai citizens experience with Thaksin. After the coup, that system was unable to evolve because it no longer existed – not because it was inadequate. Instead there were greasy pole cronies designing a new constitution which, so far, hasn’t really allowed for the evolution of Thai politics because the experience of elites having an overriding control keeps perpetuating itself.
we cannot talk about “maintenance of a democratic system” when there wasn’t a real democracy in Thailand during Thaksin. In fact, it was his immorality which led Thailand down an authoritarian path. As the Times put it aptly (describing what they say is the views of millions of Thais), “Thaksin demolished Thai democracy; the tanks rolled in over its ruins.” Now this time, the tanks won’t be rolling in and it is a time to start rebuilding democracy in Thailand.
Who are you to say there wasn’t real democracy in Thailand under Thaksin? One citizen? A democracy is subjective and isn’t static, you could similarly say the USA doesn’t have a real democracy under Bush. You are the one saying there wasn’t democracy under Thaksin, so I guess you’d be partly responsible for that since you know what a real democracy is. This time the tanks won’t be rolling in? Why not? Experience suggests otherwise! Who controls the tanks? Who has the balance of power in Thailand? Until an elected government has more power over the military than the military commanders, then you can’t assure anything.
It was well known that Thaksin had deliberately, through his enormous wealth, developed close relations (i.e. “climbed the greasy pole”) with the male heir. It is also widely recognized that the better heir would be the female one (who is Prem’s favoured choice) particularly because she obviously scores much much higher in terms of morals.
Good for Thaksin. He could have been voted out last year and Thailand could have moved on. If Thaksin is your devil, stop telling everyone else so he’s theirs too.
matty, ‘Pick any political system in Asia’
Look at the politics of Taiwan over the last 3 years. Taiwan has had the same constitution in-tact for the last 17 years! Chen Shui-Bien is a criminal, remained briefly in power, was voted out and yet the system was maintained and Taiwanese politics moved on with it’s people potentially wiser. Sure there are faults in democratic systems, but citizens are there to iron them out – not elites who throw away the shirt altogether and irrationally buy a new one designed by their good friends.
PAD – ready for violence
“matty”:
Where have i “exonerated” Thaksin? This statement is pure conjecture from your side. I vehemently reject such impolite accusations.
I have pointed out that many crimes that are attributed to Thaksin have in equal measure been committed/collaborated in/initiated by many others, and are neither mentioned nor prosecuted. And i reason that therefore an enabling system is primarily to blame.
I also point out that during Thaksin’s government also substantial improvements were initiated, besides the obvious failures.
Thaksin should be prosecuted, but only together with the aforementioned. If Thaksin alone is blamed, than all this is an entirely fruitless exercise that achieves nothing else than whitewashing and justifying this system that has been in place long before Thaksin played any role.
If you are of the opinion that Thaksin was the sole “Maestro” – then you make a fundamental mistake of thought. You ignore the nature of Thai politics, of which TRT was symbolic, you ignore the nature of the informal power networks and their inner workings, you ignore the core mechanics of Thai society, and you ignore history.
Pick any advanced democratic system, and it does work somewhat, regardless of the respective moralities of their elected leaders, can bounce back from a “bad” leader. Thailand never worked along those lines, not before Thaksin, not during Thaksin’s government, not now, and it will not unless the enabling system, that is far greater than one elected prime minister, is modernized into a more egalitarian system.
And that is all i can say about this.
PAD – ready for violence
I still fail to see how Nick’s broken-record repeating “faulty or imperfect Thai political system” exonerates Thaksin?
Pick any political system in Asia or around the world and flaws and faults easily manifest themselves. And many worldly political leaders distinguish themselves despite the system flaws. And just as many unethical flawed leaders unleash their totalitarian, kleptomaniac and psychopathic bent (while championing the poor and democracy of course) even in more perfect systems.
Nah! I won’t blame Thailand’s flawed system nor the Thai elite for Thaksin’s downfall. Thaksin’s undoing was his, and his responsibility alone. And those equally unethical, unprincipled and kleptomaniac gang of ‘yes’ TRT men Thaksin assembled do too share the blame but the Maestro was Thaksin, and no one else.
Revisiting the Prem compound clashes
“Hla Oo”:
I wish i could be so sure. These protests were handled much better than the ones in Burma. But ’76 and ’92 were handled with utter brutality, and so was the 2003 drug war. I believe the difference is not in the nature of the people, but structural.
Let’s wait and see what the future brings us here in Thailand. I am afraid that there is a slight chance that one day you may have to reverse your position on Thailand.
If you look at the wars in former Yugoslavia, or the Nazi times in Germany, you can see that supposedly civilized people of supposedly civilized cultures can descend into the same brutalities.
In the end, people are the same – we all have the potential to behave in rather uncivilized ways. To some degree it is up to us to decide, and to some degree circumstances limit our ability to decide.
By the way, i very much admire your contributions on violence in Burma. This is a very refreshing perspective and extremely educating to read a viewpoint that breaks with the mostly politically correct simplistic views that dominate the public debate.
It was an eyeopener for me, when i had the opportunity to travel through Wa State with an official journalist’s visa, and had to spend lots of time with our MI escorts. I did find very complex human beings behind the positions they held in this nightmare of a system. Especially after we got drunk together at the end of our journey, many layers of this system fell away.
Things are never as simple as many people make it out to be, especially not in Burma.
Nation, religion and monarchy in the fight against Thaksin
Nothing new about this article. It just confirmed, what had been known long before and general knowledge, that there were certainly lots of disturbing, negative and unacceptable ISSUES concerning Thaksin, his cronies, and his gang during Thaksin’s rule.
So what’s the beef? Many of those issues singly by themselves justified the criminal prosecution of Thaksin, despite Thaksin’s popularity and majority vote handed to his disgraced TRT party.
8-8-88
Readers following President Bush’s recent visit to Thailand will want to read this personal reflection from Aung Zaw, the editor of The Irrawaddy. Aung Zaw, and other Burmese “activists”, ate with the President during his stay in Bangkok. The resulting article is well worth a look.
Best wishes to all,
Nich
The horror of political violence in Burma
Hi,
The first-hand accounts given here are really outrageous. Recently I read a book entitled “The Glass Palace” by Amitav Ghosh and had some sense of things happening in Burma, but the stuff I read here makes me cringe in disgust. Another book I read a year back is Khalid Hosseni’s “The Kite Runner” and there are descriptions of stark atrocities perpetrated by Talibans. Whiter civilisation?
Nanda
http://ramblingnanda.blogspot.com
http://remixoforchid.blogspot.com
PAD – ready for violence
“Karmablues”:
The system was faulty long before Thaksin played any role in Thai politics. Thaksin’s rise was only a logical result of the structural weaknesses, and not their originator. Thaksin’s ouster by an elitist coup was another logical result of those inherent weaknesses, and the present witch hunt won’t change a thing.
Please don’t try to make out as if Thailand was all nice and dandy before Thaksin decided to stand for elections.
You may concentrate on the human rights violations, but it should be clear by now that there simply is no will to fully investigate and prosecute the drug war killings. The military government’s sham investigations have made sure of obscuring what happened there.
A full investigation into the drug war killings would be a start, but this won’t happen the same way as a full investigation into ’76 and it’s aftermath hasn’t happened, and the investigation into ’92 is still kept secret.
The results of such investigations could possibly damage the system beyond repair. Such is the devil’s circle that Thailand has maneuvered itself into over the course of the last decades.
Robert Kaplan on Burma and American war-fighters
From the George Bush’s economic sanctions to the Laura Bush’s celebrated visit to Mae Sot, the noises from the United States of America concerning Burma are getting louder and louder and louder as the Burmese generals cleverly play the geopolitical game between China and India.
I just pray that poor Burma will not become another pawn in the US of A’s grand plan to contain China from becoming a superpower, like what US did to Vietnam in the sixties to contain the spread of communism in SE Asia.
Americans used the domino effect theory to justify US actions then. Which theory they’re gonna use it now, Yum Cha theory, ha ha?
Nation, religion and monarchy in the fight against Thaksin
And… ?
I mean this long paper is interesting and gives informations (particularily about religion, this angle is often ignored) and how the campaign against Thaksin did evolve.
But, as usual, it fails to go to the point.
The real question is : why ?
Why “three major national institutions – nation, religion and monarchy – had conspired together to form the core opposition.” ?
To write such story without talking about… the succession issue, and the very existence (and its form) of the thai monarchy after Rama IX, is a little bit … disappointing.
I often feel frustrated when I read papers written by thai academics. They never go to the point.
Nation, religion and monarchy in the fight against Thaksin
I was actualy present when the coup took place. What an event that was. it was a bloodless coup . i did not even know it was taking place !!! . thats how peacefull it was . What i will say is that it is a terrible shame to see a great country like thailand with great potential to become a a finanacial power house , go down the path it has. Geographicaly thailand is positioned half way between europe , north America and Australia. The work ethic in Thailand as far as i know is first rate. So as i was saying , great posibilities exist in thailand. I had no idea untill now , how monarchy and government allways seem to come , head to head and lock horns. ( so to speak) , would it be a good idea to go back to monarchy rule , due to the fact that many thai people revere the king. JUST AN IDEA.
PAD – ready for violence
in politics one must be sure that a system can be maintained and functional for all citizens in spite of the moral dispositions of whoever is at the head of the system.
Agreed. It’s called a system of checks and balances. And thus Thaksin’s sabotage of all checks and balances, his absolute parliamentary dominance, his undermining of independent bodies, his bribery of the courts, his buying off the media caused the system to malfunction to the detriment of the people, i.e. Thaksin’s immoral decisions could be wielded at will with impunity leading to the gross violations of human rights on extraordinary scale and the rampant corruption in government.
this means that the maintenance of a democratic system takes precedence over the moral capacity of it’s leader.
we cannot talk about “maintenance of a democratic system” when there wasn’t a real democracy in Thailand during Thaksin. In fact, it was his immorality which led Thailand down an authoritarian path. As the Times put it aptly (describing what they say is the views of millions of Thais), “Thaksin demolished Thai democracy; the tanks rolled in over its ruins.” Now this time, the tanks won’t be rolling in and it is a time to start rebuilding democracy in Thailand.
The state must be owned by all who live in it, and not blinkered to a few hereditary elites and those who wish to climb the greasy pole
It was well known that Thaksin had deliberately, through his enormous wealth, developed close relations (i.e. “climbed the greasy pole”) with the male heir. It is also widely recognized that the better heir would be the female one (who is Prem’s favoured choice) particularly because she obviously scores much much higher in terms of morals.
Now, in a scenario where Thaksin was to stay in power, and the male heir ascends the throne, how would they joining hands in their “common morality” (or more accurately, common immorality) bode well for the future of Thailand?
PAD and the Democrats will miss Thaksin
Thank you, Jim Taylor, for your perceptive comment. I happen to agree that Mr. Thaksin is being unjustly treated. It makes me worry about the lopsided Thai mentality.