If your still in touch with your distant uncle thank him for my safe passage. I thought he was quite a gentleman and hope he is enjoying his retirement.
Moe Aung,
Yes, it is strange how those in power are so afraid of those who want to do good. Jesus Christ, Martin Luther King, Aung San Suu Kyi et al.
Politics…an early grave…I hope not – especially for ASSK.
In the next life I will write romance novels – perhaps it is safer!
Definitely, Thais are more civilized than Burmese. In any similar case like a mass protest shown in the photos, Burmese soldiers would chalk on the road three lines between them and the protesters, and once the protesters cross the first line they would just blow them away to hell with automatic rifles.
Moe Aung, you’re right in the cases of other govt. departments in Burma. But for some reason, the army couldn’t put ex-armys in the engineer dominated departments like Railway, Construction, and Irrigation, where the top posts are still held by the professional civilian engineers.
But that time is ending soon as the Burmese Army now has their own University of Engineering for about ten years now. If the army is still in power for next ten more years, army engineers will take over all civilian engineering posts, eventually.
Do you really think a common morality that condones extra-judicial killings will result in making the system any better?
I suppose you guys will now have to start justifying Thaksin’s decision to run away from the courts, and of course it will have had nothing to do his being guilty on any counts.
I can hear it now: The system is flawed, so why should one person be singled out? (especially if the person being challenged is somebody you like, or a somebody who opposes someone you do not like)
I prefer a system where all are subject to the rule of law, and the path to getting a better system involves taking down high fliers which serves as a deterrent to all in future – precedents have to start somewhere .
Hla Oo, I thought it was called the herd instinct. I have no idea who started it when, though I’d like to think perhaps but probably not from the time of the South Sea Bubble.
Hear, hear, Dennis. The more the merrier indeed sharing JL’s dream, but you know the price you are likely to pay once you become too effective to be tolerated by the establishment. Look where it got our hero, an early grave, not that he’ll ever be forgotten for singing “imagine” which happens to be one of my all time favourites.
Hla Oo, I bet your uncle would have got the top job in his department if the military hadn’t put their own in position or had he been ex-army himself.
Particularly notable it seems is his closing statement:
“Mr Thaksin’s economic and bureaucratic reforms, income redistribution schemes, and policy innovations that boosted Thailand’s competitiveness in the global economy should be retained as much as the corruption, cronyism and abuses of power should be dealt with. It is imperative for the conservative alliance behind his political decapitation to accept that not all of what Mr Thaksin stood for was wrong. Unless his opponents come to terms with what is positive about his legacy, Thailand’s crisis is likely to persist.”
Nganadeeleg, you say How is putting on blinkers regarding Thaksin’s wrongdoings going to help bring about the change?
I think you are misconstruing priorities for being blinkered. What you are looking for is a moral good, and in politics one must be sure that a system can be maintained and functional for all citizens in spite of the moral dispositions of whoever is at the head of the system. As we have seen, this is not the case in Thailand. To have change in Thailand one must have a system that gives power to all, and this means that the maintenance of a democratic system takes precedence over the moral capacity of it’s leader. Within a democratic system, the capacity for a common morality to be felt by all citizens is much higher than in feudal kingships. The state must be owned by all who live in it, and not blinkered to a few hereditary elites and those who wish to climb the greasy pole.
“I want to catch the ferry to Mandalay”, I replied. “OK, I will authorise the tickets”, he said. As we left, I asked who he was. He said, “U Kyaw Myint, deputy minister for transport.”
The reason U Kyaw Myint was quite accessible and humble was he wasn’t from the army. He was the Chief Mechanical Engineer of Burma Railway before he became one of the deputy Ministers for Transport.
He graduated from Rangoon University (BOC College) as a mechanical engineer and was a Fulbright scholar during U Nu’s reign and I think he went to Stanford in US. He is retired now and the reason I know him well is he is one of my distant uncles.
Researches such as “the likes of Andrew” (and many others) try to factually highlight the structural problems of this society, so that maybe one day these enabling factors can be changed by office holders.
How is putting on blinkers regarding Thaksin’s wrongdoings going to help bring about the change?
What use it to “condemn” Thaksin’s role in the drug war killings, while the system that enabled those killings is still in place and untouched, regardless of who holds political power?
As long as their is not even open public discussion possible on the system of informal power networks and patronage, blaming Thaksin for structures that have been in place long before he played any role in Thai politics is a diversion tactic which will not lead to any change in the structures that have not just enabled the drug war killings, but also the many other state sponsored human rights violations in Thai history.
Lets first properly analyze what led to the drug war, who participated, collaborated, and what happened during the drug war, and then start attaching guilt. The by you propagated supposed chain of commands and events is a simplification that does not go more than skin deep into basic structural problems of Thai society.
All evidence points to a Thai typical collaboration of elitist power networks, supported by the majority of the population, to counter a threat to society in a not unprecedented fashion of utter brutality. The way how all blame is now shifted to Thaksin alone, enables the system and structures to remain untouched.
Thaksin never was the initiator or solely dominating factor of this system, only one replaceable wheel within that structure of many wheels.
The drug war killings could have happened without Thaksin, as did many such human rights violations in recent Thai history, because there is a faulty system in place that enables such. If you want to “condemn” – then condemn the structural problems that lead to such.
Researches such as “the likes of Andrew” (and many others) try to factually highlight the structural problems of this society, so that maybe one day these enabling factors can be changed by office holders.
Having lived in Thailand most of my life I am surprised by the comments made.
The last election was totally rigged. In the area I live I witnessed this personally. However this was not the first time for such like. It is normal and happens at every election.
Under the Thaksin regime some 3000 people were killed in the war on drugs. After investigation it was determined around half had nothing to do with drugs.
All has been swept under the table.
Do you think this man Samak is any good? Do you know of his past?
He was the one who ordered the army to shoot on the protesters sometime ago in the late 70’s.
The PAD is representative of a large percent of the population. Mostly educated people unlike the supporters of Thaksin who are generally not too educated rural types.
The general feeling in Thailand is that the current government has failed as it’s only purpose seems to be changing the constitution so all the corrupt politicians can avoid prosecution.
It is time for a change wouldn’t you say so?
If today’s article in the Bangkok Post by Pradit Ruangdit is true, it seems like the Samak government had advance notice of his intentions, advised him to flee, and possibly aided in the planning & execution.
Hard to believe that a government would do such a thing – completely throwing rule of law out the door would put them on a very slippery slope indeed!
It would be nice if as Thad Williamson suggested the Thai nation would begin to move forward and quickly lay to rest the sordid Thaksin chapter. The Thaksin bubble had burst, the Thai judiciary had reasserted its independence and Thai rule of law had regained credibility in the process.
There will be whiners like Jim Taylor who would continue to ascribe ‘judicial bias’ even where meticulous judicial process was observed in Thaksin’s or Potjaman’s case. Many Thais actually believed Thaksin & the Shinawatras did not deserve due process considering the rampant police death squad killings, sans due process, during Thaksin’s anti-drug madness while in power.
But in the end Thaksin could not demonstrate courage nor conviction when the going got tough. No Aung Sang Suu Kyi our Thaksin Shinawatra . . . But instead: “Thailand’s wimp of the decade” will be Thaksin’s historical footnote.
Hot chilli indeed! I just love that Belacan. Best I had was at Katha (George Orwell’s former residence) on the Irrawaddy where the flying fishes play on that road to Mandalay. Have a Burmese mate in Cairns that makes a pretty good version.
John Lennon admitted that he was not the only dreamer…so those of us that share his dream… have to keep that dream alive… and spread the belacan…the vegemite……for all to share…and challenge the greedy…whether it is a multi – national corporation…a military regime…a democratic regime …in our continued struggle for social justice!
Hardly anyone has noted some important facts:
1. the media’s persisted brainwashing and demonisation of Thaksin since (and indeed before) 2005 and the continuing distorted and biased anti-Thaksin reporting cheerled by the lunatic Sondhi Lim and his mob of so-called “democrats” intent on bringing the country & elected government down to emplace its own minority government;
2. The emplacement by the 2006 coup cronies of high level judiciary that no one can touch has made any fair hearing impossible for the ex-PM or his family (would anyone of the readers stay in Thailand and cop this under these circumstances?)
4. All the innuendos and allegations about Thaksin are without substance but have been taken as fact in itself. Whether we like it or not, he in fact acted within the law during his political tenure (though the question of whether his actions were “appropriate” are quite another matter). He was rich before entering politics not from politics.
5. If anyone wants to know why TRT and PPP were elected and why they are pissed off by PAD’s actions listen to the popular electorate in the countryside or the migrant poor in the city who seem to know more about “democracy” than the intellectuals, cartels, mafia, Democrat-voters and mid-level government officials who lost their under-table benfits during Thaksin’s government.
Readers should not rely on the Nation or that equally propagandised the Manager, but try and access Thai language alternatives web-sites that circumvent the Sondhi and friends controlled mainstream media.
I refuse though the simplistic demonization of Thaksin so prevalant under his outspoken critics, especially in the PAD
What an understatement!
You cannot even condemn the Doctors role in the the way the drug war was conducted, so I suppose there’s no use bothering trying to mention tax evasion, use of nominees, tax havens, manipulation of state officials & institutions or policy corruption.
Thaksin/TRT did do some good things, and have contributed to changing Thailand for the better, but I would like to know how continuing to overlook (sometimes deny or even justify) their wrongdoings (by the likes of you and Andrew) contributes to improving things further?
Hi Dennis, more likely hot chilli than K9 but he hardly needed to be specific. Yeah, Lennon dreamt the dream but sadly it’s likely to remain a dream. Just too much greed in this world and it’s spread like an epidemic – the virus of ‘looking after number one’. There just ain’t enough people who put people before profits.
surprised there isn’t more activity on this thread…but it isn’t the better question not who wins or loses in the short-term from this, but what possibilities a truly post-Thaksin political landscape might present? Is there any plausible hope of re-constituting a political force that included the better aspects of Thaksin’s policies (discussed by Andrew elsewhere) with a recommitment to the ideals of the ’97 constitution? just a naive question from a distant observer, but I’d be curious to see more discussion of that.
Still another possibility, of course, is that freed from the Thaksin obsession the Dems might actually now spend time laying out a constructive program for how they would govern better than the incumbents.
But Thaksin’s no-show in the Supreme Court could be most costly for the PAD and the Democrats. Running a scare campaign is not so easy when the bogeyman flees with his tail between his legs.
The PAD and Dem does not need the actual person to be here, or have you forgotten that their complain started long before Thaksin flew back to Thailand?
Without looking at PAD announcement, I would dare bet they would announce another victory and proceed onward to topple the so-called puppet-government and Thaksinocracy…
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Green Left Weekly on Burma
Hla Oo,
If your still in touch with your distant uncle thank him for my safe passage. I thought he was quite a gentleman and hope he is enjoying his retirement.
Moe Aung,
Yes, it is strange how those in power are so afraid of those who want to do good. Jesus Christ, Martin Luther King, Aung San Suu Kyi et al.
Politics…an early grave…I hope not – especially for ASSK.
In the next life I will write romance novels – perhaps it is safer!
Revisiting the Prem compound clashes
Definitely, Thais are more civilized than Burmese. In any similar case like a mass protest shown in the photos, Burmese soldiers would chalk on the road three lines between them and the protesters, and once the protesters cross the first line they would just blow them away to hell with automatic rifles.
Green Left Weekly on Burma
Moe Aung, you’re right in the cases of other govt. departments in Burma. But for some reason, the army couldn’t put ex-armys in the engineer dominated departments like Railway, Construction, and Irrigation, where the top posts are still held by the professional civilian engineers.
But that time is ending soon as the Burmese Army now has their own University of Engineering for about ten years now. If the army is still in power for next ten more years, army engineers will take over all civilian engineering posts, eventually.
PAD – ready for violence
Do you really think a common morality that condones extra-judicial killings will result in making the system any better?
I suppose you guys will now have to start justifying Thaksin’s decision to run away from the courts, and of course it will have had nothing to do his being guilty on any counts.
I can hear it now: The system is flawed, so why should one person be singled out? (especially if the person being challenged is somebody you like, or a somebody who opposes someone you do not like)
I prefer a system where all are subject to the rule of law, and the path to getting a better system involves taking down high fliers which serves as a deterrent to all in future – precedents have to start somewhere .
Interview with Professor Duncan McCargo
Hla Oo, I thought it was called the herd instinct. I have no idea who started it when, though I’d like to think perhaps but probably not from the time of the South Sea Bubble.
Green Left Weekly on Burma
Hear, hear, Dennis. The more the merrier indeed sharing JL’s dream, but you know the price you are likely to pay once you become too effective to be tolerated by the establishment. Look where it got our hero, an early grave, not that he’ll ever be forgotten for singing “imagine” which happens to be one of my all time favourites.
Hla Oo, I bet your uncle would have got the top job in his department if the military hadn’t put their own in position or had he been ex-army himself.
PAD and the Democrats will miss Thaksin
What do people make of this analysis of “a post-Thaksin Thailand” from the Bangkok Post by Thitinan Pongsudhirak?
http://www.bangkokpost.com/topstories/topstories.php?id=129552
Particularly notable it seems is his closing statement:
“Mr Thaksin’s economic and bureaucratic reforms, income redistribution schemes, and policy innovations that boosted Thailand’s competitiveness in the global economy should be retained as much as the corruption, cronyism and abuses of power should be dealt with. It is imperative for the conservative alliance behind his political decapitation to accept that not all of what Mr Thaksin stood for was wrong. Unless his opponents come to terms with what is positive about his legacy, Thailand’s crisis is likely to persist.”
PAD – ready for violence
Nganadeeleg, you say How is putting on blinkers regarding Thaksin’s wrongdoings going to help bring about the change?
I think you are misconstruing priorities for being blinkered. What you are looking for is a moral good, and in politics one must be sure that a system can be maintained and functional for all citizens in spite of the moral dispositions of whoever is at the head of the system. As we have seen, this is not the case in Thailand. To have change in Thailand one must have a system that gives power to all, and this means that the maintenance of a democratic system takes precedence over the moral capacity of it’s leader. Within a democratic system, the capacity for a common morality to be felt by all citizens is much higher than in feudal kingships. The state must be owned by all who live in it, and not blinkered to a few hereditary elites and those who wish to climb the greasy pole.
Green Left Weekly on Burma
“I want to catch the ferry to Mandalay”, I replied. “OK, I will authorise the tickets”, he said. As we left, I asked who he was. He said, “U Kyaw Myint, deputy minister for transport.”
The reason U Kyaw Myint was quite accessible and humble was he wasn’t from the army. He was the Chief Mechanical Engineer of Burma Railway before he became one of the deputy Ministers for Transport.
He graduated from Rangoon University (BOC College) as a mechanical engineer and was a Fulbright scholar during U Nu’s reign and I think he went to Stanford in US. He is retired now and the reason I know him well is he is one of my distant uncles.
PAD – ready for violence
Researches such as “the likes of Andrew” (and many others) try to factually highlight the structural problems of this society, so that maybe one day these enabling factors can be changed by office holders.
How is putting on blinkers regarding Thaksin’s wrongdoings going to help bring about the change?
PAD – ready for violence
“nganadeeleg”:
What use it to “condemn” Thaksin’s role in the drug war killings, while the system that enabled those killings is still in place and untouched, regardless of who holds political power?
As long as their is not even open public discussion possible on the system of informal power networks and patronage, blaming Thaksin for structures that have been in place long before he played any role in Thai politics is a diversion tactic which will not lead to any change in the structures that have not just enabled the drug war killings, but also the many other state sponsored human rights violations in Thai history.
Lets first properly analyze what led to the drug war, who participated, collaborated, and what happened during the drug war, and then start attaching guilt. The by you propagated supposed chain of commands and events is a simplification that does not go more than skin deep into basic structural problems of Thai society.
All evidence points to a Thai typical collaboration of elitist power networks, supported by the majority of the population, to counter a threat to society in a not unprecedented fashion of utter brutality. The way how all blame is now shifted to Thaksin alone, enables the system and structures to remain untouched.
Thaksin never was the initiator or solely dominating factor of this system, only one replaceable wheel within that structure of many wheels.
The drug war killings could have happened without Thaksin, as did many such human rights violations in recent Thai history, because there is a faulty system in place that enables such. If you want to “condemn” – then condemn the structural problems that lead to such.
Researches such as “the likes of Andrew” (and many others) try to factually highlight the structural problems of this society, so that maybe one day these enabling factors can be changed by office holders.
PAD and the Democrats will miss Thaksin
Having lived in Thailand most of my life I am surprised by the comments made.
The last election was totally rigged. In the area I live I witnessed this personally. However this was not the first time for such like. It is normal and happens at every election.
Under the Thaksin regime some 3000 people were killed in the war on drugs. After investigation it was determined around half had nothing to do with drugs.
All has been swept under the table.
Do you think this man Samak is any good? Do you know of his past?
He was the one who ordered the army to shoot on the protesters sometime ago in the late 70’s.
The PAD is representative of a large percent of the population. Mostly educated people unlike the supporters of Thaksin who are generally not too educated rural types.
The general feeling in Thailand is that the current government has failed as it’s only purpose seems to be changing the constitution so all the corrupt politicians can avoid prosecution.
It is time for a change wouldn’t you say so?
PAD and the Democrats will miss Thaksin
If today’s article in the Bangkok Post by Pradit Ruangdit is true, it seems like the Samak government had advance notice of his intentions, advised him to flee, and possibly aided in the planning & execution.
Hard to believe that a government would do such a thing – completely throwing rule of law out the door would put them on a very slippery slope indeed!
PAD and the Democrats will miss Thaksin
It would be nice if as Thad Williamson suggested the Thai nation would begin to move forward and quickly lay to rest the sordid Thaksin chapter. The Thaksin bubble had burst, the Thai judiciary had reasserted its independence and Thai rule of law had regained credibility in the process.
There will be whiners like Jim Taylor who would continue to ascribe ‘judicial bias’ even where meticulous judicial process was observed in Thaksin’s or Potjaman’s case. Many Thais actually believed Thaksin & the Shinawatras did not deserve due process considering the rampant police death squad killings, sans due process, during Thaksin’s anti-drug madness while in power.
But in the end Thaksin could not demonstrate courage nor conviction when the going got tough. No Aung Sang Suu Kyi our Thaksin Shinawatra . . . But instead: “Thailand’s wimp of the decade” will be Thaksin’s historical footnote.
Green Left Weekly on Burma
Hi Moe,
Hot chilli indeed! I just love that Belacan. Best I had was at Katha (George Orwell’s former residence) on the Irrawaddy where the flying fishes play on that road to Mandalay. Have a Burmese mate in Cairns that makes a pretty good version.
John Lennon admitted that he was not the only dreamer…so those of us that share his dream… have to keep that dream alive… and spread the belacan…the vegemite……for all to share…and challenge the greedy…whether it is a multi – national corporation…a military regime…a democratic regime …in our continued struggle for social justice!
PAD and the Democrats will miss Thaksin
Hardly anyone has noted some important facts:
1. the media’s persisted brainwashing and demonisation of Thaksin since (and indeed before) 2005 and the continuing distorted and biased anti-Thaksin reporting cheerled by the lunatic Sondhi Lim and his mob of so-called “democrats” intent on bringing the country & elected government down to emplace its own minority government;
2. The emplacement by the 2006 coup cronies of high level judiciary that no one can touch has made any fair hearing impossible for the ex-PM or his family (would anyone of the readers stay in Thailand and cop this under these circumstances?)
4. All the innuendos and allegations about Thaksin are without substance but have been taken as fact in itself. Whether we like it or not, he in fact acted within the law during his political tenure (though the question of whether his actions were “appropriate” are quite another matter). He was rich before entering politics not from politics.
5. If anyone wants to know why TRT and PPP were elected and why they are pissed off by PAD’s actions listen to the popular electorate in the countryside or the migrant poor in the city who seem to know more about “democracy” than the intellectuals, cartels, mafia, Democrat-voters and mid-level government officials who lost their under-table benfits during Thaksin’s government.
Readers should not rely on the Nation or that equally propagandised the Manager, but try and access Thai language alternatives web-sites that circumvent the Sondhi and friends controlled mainstream media.
PAD – ready for violence
I refuse though the simplistic demonization of Thaksin so prevalant under his outspoken critics, especially in the PAD
What an understatement!
You cannot even condemn the Doctors role in the the way the drug war was conducted, so I suppose there’s no use bothering trying to mention tax evasion, use of nominees, tax havens, manipulation of state officials & institutions or policy corruption.
Thaksin/TRT did do some good things, and have contributed to changing Thailand for the better, but I would like to know how continuing to overlook (sometimes deny or even justify) their wrongdoings (by the likes of you and Andrew) contributes to improving things further?
Green Left Weekly on Burma
Hi Dennis, more likely hot chilli than K9 but he hardly needed to be specific. Yeah, Lennon dreamt the dream but sadly it’s likely to remain a dream. Just too much greed in this world and it’s spread like an epidemic – the virus of ‘looking after number one’. There just ain’t enough people who put people before profits.
PAD and the Democrats will miss Thaksin
surprised there isn’t more activity on this thread…but it isn’t the better question not who wins or loses in the short-term from this, but what possibilities a truly post-Thaksin political landscape might present? Is there any plausible hope of re-constituting a political force that included the better aspects of Thaksin’s policies (discussed by Andrew elsewhere) with a recommitment to the ideals of the ’97 constitution? just a naive question from a distant observer, but I’d be curious to see more discussion of that.
Still another possibility, of course, is that freed from the Thaksin obsession the Dems might actually now spend time laying out a constructive program for how they would govern better than the incumbents.
PAD and the Democrats will miss Thaksin
But Thaksin’s no-show in the Supreme Court could be most costly for the PAD and the Democrats. Running a scare campaign is not so easy when the bogeyman flees with his tail between his legs.
The PAD and Dem does not need the actual person to be here, or have you forgotten that their complain started long before Thaksin flew back to Thailand?
Without looking at PAD announcement, I would dare bet they would announce another victory and proceed onward to topple the so-called puppet-government and Thaksinocracy…