“There seems to be a tendency amongst the foreign intelligentsia–not exactly the cream of the academic crop in their own countries– stuck in Thai academies who look down upon Thais for their shortcomings.”
Did he ever claim to be intelligentsia? How do you qualify for this group? Run a blog perhaps?
I don’t work in an academy and I’m glad I don’t. A great deal of looking down occurs on both sides. They both look down on their own for that matter.
You now have to have a PhD to be even a small bit-part player on the global rape & pillage stage.
The Thai educational system is rubbish, but Thai people are not.
Despite such institutional lunacy, so many Thais go survive with their curiosity, inquisitiveness, and ability to challenge dogma intact. Many don’t, but judging by the truly appalling nature of the system, I am surprised and delighted to say many Thais survive it. Imagine how they would fare in a better system.
Oh, and don’t forget there is hope. Three Thais just won gold medals from the Academic Olympiads, and Chulalongkorn University’s engineering team’s rescue robot also won first prize.
Reg, Answering your first and second paragraphs: I’m not sure where I said “claiming that all Thaksinites must be supporters because they are bought off”. I think I mentioned Thaksinites are fine if they are not bought out; [ On this point, You’re right, its too easy to smear people — and it is not fair to Chang Noi and thus the word ‘perhaps’ that I used. However, we have seen numerous figures in Thailand who have been bought — critcal of Thaksin, then with abit of money, kept quiet. But I won’t go on this track — for Chang Noi, and therefore retract those words on Chang Noi completely]
Ref your “intolerance of views that are not pro-PAD.” Have I not said I’ve been listening to Thaksinites view in my 2-3 years when Thaksin was around? Maybe I should add more- I get onto taxis (some – the Pink or Orange ones) that turn on Pro-Thaksin channels. I listen for both views. I shop Ebay and the Amazon- and like the ‘Pros’ and ‘Cons’ style that The Economist presents its news & analysis. I understand Thai well so can distinguish whether the Angry Man on ASTV is saying something sane as “Mary Had A Little Lamb” rather than a non-Thai who may think that same Angry Man was reading a verse from “Mein Kamf”. My Anti-Thaksinism is a very informed choice.
That is why I am saying to any reader of New Mandala, that is OK to be a Thaksinite if that’s the information you have; (i.e. it is OK to be a Nazi if the only think you were taught in youth school was the ideology. ) We can agree to disagree on this (PAD & Protest) — if you think you’ve got all the information, and go on– as I can see so many interesting and very valuable information we can get from New Mandala that can be used to “make things better” for the Nations it covers. This site is a very good exchange of different views 🙂
And its ok, if one can’t answer an ‘unintelligent’ question. It can be quite hard if one doesn’t have answers.
#5 If the author was not a “farang”, would your “argument” collapse? And sure — Chula, Thammasat, Mahidol are all full of farang sex-tourists posing as schloars! This response is just such as predictably defensive as is the saliva running out of Pawlow’s doggy.
The original could be construed as racist.
Other comments here too. Certainly patronizing!
Whatever!
But notice something else here. Thailand’s expats could be called social outcasts., but I’m not so sure it is really that simple. (Indeed, it’s probably further racism, but I’m far from politically correct either.) I actually think the majority of expat teachers here are a much more rounded bunch than you folks would ever give them credit for. In most cases there is nothing to really stop them going home apart from the fact that they have ‘invested’ heavily here. They could go home and face unemployment because the dumb system at home can no longer be bothered with people with medium-level qualifications. They are looked down on by just about everyone including the Phds here. They also frequently tarred with the expat stereotype by locals. Hence the fact that the Thai government feels that it’s perfectly OK to allow the tutor mill to milk expat teachers dry with ridiculous cultural awareness courses.
The national flag of Thailand is being defaced at the top of this article. We should holler about this the way the Thai flag was handled at a Manchester City game. So where are ye, all patriots?
Seriously, though, the idea of nuclear power should be explored systematically for Thailand. But I don’t see how that can happen, because in Thailand we are not interested in anything long except money. It does not seem probable that the subject of nuclear power will be given sustained study. Like a torch, it is likely to shine briefly, and is then gone. That, my friends, is how we Thais do things.
karmablues, kuson and sidh: here’s the problem (and you seem unwilling or unable to grasp it) – you see anyone who disagrees with your views and with PAD as being pro-Thaksin. That is not the case. Indeed, as mentioned in the Chang Noi piece, PAD has tried to silence critics (before you jump out of your skins, so too did Thaksin and TRT). And kuson does it again by making what are essentially unsubstantiated allegations that Chang Noi is bought by Thaksin. I’m sure that kuson knows that CN was one of the major critics of Thaksin, his regime, his alleged crimes, etc. (even when kuson was a Thaksin supporter). But when CN criticises PAD, CN must be in the pay of the puppet master. Loopy logic.
But kuson is even more accusatory than this, claiming that all Thaksinites must be supporters because they are bought off. This is a remarkable claim and certainly untrue and it is one that has been regularly made from the PAD stage. But if it were true, then we’d have to assume that kuson, in the period of being “fooled” by Thaksin, was also in the pay of Thaksin. Do you begin to see the problem with this kind of illiberal smearing?
Karmablues makes my point about the rule of law. But the suggestion that one failure to accept the rule of law is better than another failure to accept the rule of law seems illogical.
The suggestion that unless I act like a Thaksinite in and manufacture a Thaksinite response to a dumb question then I must be a Thaksinite is … looking for a polite word … unintelligent. But again it suggests an intolerance of views that are not pro-PAD.
This is not surprising. We Thais are a nation of no discipline. We follow our whims. Anything that involves law enforcement usually ends up in failure. It’s seems natural for Thais not to have moral scruples, and this manifests itself in things like murder and banditry, or at least habitual traffic violations, and oftentimes the police look the other way. So don’t get excited about Thailand’s high rating on the incidence of murder. If you can’t change the Thai trait, you can only hope and pray to the many deities that are supposed to protect Thailand.
Talking about “state of impunity”: do your remember this stupid young guy who drove his car into a crowd because he was angry after a bus would have made a mere scratch to his luxury car… The guy may have been brought to court but is still allowed to drive a car and is not even in jail yet… despite all the witnesses…
Moe Aung, you seems to know a lot about old history of Burma. I’ve never heard that claim of Communists. Two years! That was very short for a revolution. But Castro did it in Cuba even against mighty USA, didn’t he, and he is still alive and powerful.
My Father was an officer in BIA and later he joined BCP and he was the divisional commander of 3M division (Ma Thone Lone) i.e. Mandalay, Myingyan, and Meikhtila during the very early fifties. But he died a bitter death after losing the war to his former brothers-in-arms from the same old Burmese army.
General Kyaw Htin was his young lieutenant when he was a battalion commander during the Japanese Revolution. Burmese civil war is a real nasty war among the brothers. I think more than a million people were killed so far since 1948! That is without counting that half a million death of Japanese and Allied soldiers in Burma during the last big war.
That certainly is a comprehensive essay. One thing that stood out for me is his criticism of rote learning in Thai schools. Here in the US there was a program on television recently about China and its current state. One of the interviewees was a young fashion photographer who had studied in the US. His opinion was that China really suffers from a lack of imagination and creativity due to its poor education system that also emphasizes rote learning.
I think one could probably make many of the criticisms the author does of students in many places including most universities in the USA these days. Due to the constant testing and the need to teach the material on the test throughout their educational “careers” lots of kids here are also missing out on things like critical thinking skills. And with all the new technology out there they have tiny attention spans. Plus they expect to have everything handed to them because they have been taught their whole lives that they are exceptional.
Sidh: I still reckon 95% of the fuss is about Thaksin and the fear that a new dynasty is being created.
(another untouchable one, that might eventually overtake or at the very least, infiltrate, the old one)
Rule of law is the preferred way to overcome the problem (although compromise could have been been a possibility), but now outright destruction is seen as the only viable alternative.
This Triumph Chopper is a spin doctor for the Bleming camp so one wouldn’t expect too much impartiality….you have downgraded the journalists while employing some of their most deplorable tactics.
Fonzi, I always appreciate hearing your opinion, but I don’t see the point in using the R-word. Everybody loves to call everybody else a racist these days, and honestly I don’t even know what it’s supposed to mean anymore. Is “Thai” even a race? Anyway, it is no more racist to say that Thais are ignorant than it is to say that Americans are fat.
Incidentally, I agree with you on the matter of staying somewhere one dislikes. I have resolved relocate elsewhere where there is a strong talent pool and where my kids would grow up in a healthy social environment. I agree with you that the complaining is cliche and boring. It’s just “lazy” this or “incompetent” that or “jumped the shark” the other.
Finally, there was a tongue-in-cheek post on thaivisa recently that stuck with me. The assertion was that so many people complain because they want to be back home but actually can’t return there. The implication was something like running from the law, but I think if you interpret “can’t return” to cover social outcasts, then I believe there is a grain of truth there.
Anyway, these comments are shamefully speculative and vacuous for the hallowed pages of New Mandala, so I shall leave it at that.
Maybe it is just me, but I thought the essay was racist and patronizing. And I don’t say that lightly, because I am far from being politically correct.
There seems to be a tendency amongst the foreign intelligentsia–not exactly the cream of the academic crop in their own countries– stuck in Thai academies who look down upon Thais for their shortcomings. Obviously, I don’t include Andrew and Nicholas in this assessment, because they are legitimate scholars (versus farang sex tourists with degrees looking for work in Thai universities.)
I think it was Einstein who said “The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result.”
Whoever wrote this essay states that he has been in Thailand for 9 years and has two young children going through the Thai education system. If the system is as horrific as he makes it out to be, then perhaps he should go back to his superior farang country where he can be free to pursue any vocation he desires free from the Thai BS and his children can be brought up in a proper school system. I think it is hypocritical to rant about the horrendous failings of the Thai education system while willingly and consciously chaining your own children to that system, knowing the negative repercussions and supposed outcomes. That is child abuse, in my opinion.
There seems to be a large segment of the farang community that loves to complain and feel superior to the Thais, because of their own racism and insecurities. There is also a small segment of the farang community that is deeply committed to Thailand and wishes it to succeed at every level. Frankly, I think the author is of the former group rather than the later. Who would in their right mind stay in a profession for 9 years where there is clearly no satisfaction except to feel intellectually and morally superior to your students and colleagues?
Lastly, the essay in itself displayed all the characteristics of what he was criticizing: xenophobia, racism and farang exceptionalism, poorly constructed English, shoddy documentation, and superficiality over substance.
In the final analysis, the author made some good points that I agree with, but those points are not exactly new observations, just rehashing of the same old arguments made by others, notably quotes from Sutichai Yoon and The Nation, not exactly paragons of Thai intellectual virtue.
Facebook 
Twitter 
Soundcloud 
Youtube 
Rss
An essay on “the dismal state of Thai education”
Oh, and isn’t it “nerdy”, in Western countries, to be intelligent? “Uncool”, “geeky”, or a “loser with no life”?
Anti-intellectual attitudes don’t merely exist in Thailand.
An essay on “the dismal state of Thai education”
“There seems to be a tendency amongst the foreign intelligentsia–not exactly the cream of the academic crop in their own countries– stuck in Thai academies who look down upon Thais for their shortcomings.”
Did he ever claim to be intelligentsia? How do you qualify for this group? Run a blog perhaps?
I don’t work in an academy and I’m glad I don’t. A great deal of looking down occurs on both sides. They both look down on their own for that matter.
You now have to have a PhD to be even a small bit-part player on the global rape & pillage stage.
An essay on “the dismal state of Thai education”
The Thai educational system is rubbish, but Thai people are not.
Despite such institutional lunacy, so many Thais go survive with their curiosity, inquisitiveness, and ability to challenge dogma intact. Many don’t, but judging by the truly appalling nature of the system, I am surprised and delighted to say many Thais survive it. Imagine how they would fare in a better system.
Oh, and don’t forget there is hope. Three Thais just won gold medals from the Academic Olympiads, and Chulalongkorn University’s engineering team’s rescue robot also won first prize.
Time to go home
Reg, Answering your first and second paragraphs: I’m not sure where I said “claiming that all Thaksinites must be supporters because they are bought off”. I think I mentioned Thaksinites are fine if they are not bought out; [ On this point, You’re right, its too easy to smear people — and it is not fair to Chang Noi and thus the word ‘perhaps’ that I used. However, we have seen numerous figures in Thailand who have been bought — critcal of Thaksin, then with abit of money, kept quiet. But I won’t go on this track — for Chang Noi, and therefore retract those words on Chang Noi completely]
Ref your “intolerance of views that are not pro-PAD.” Have I not said I’ve been listening to Thaksinites view in my 2-3 years when Thaksin was around? Maybe I should add more- I get onto taxis (some – the Pink or Orange ones) that turn on Pro-Thaksin channels. I listen for both views. I shop Ebay and the Amazon- and like the ‘Pros’ and ‘Cons’ style that The Economist presents its news & analysis. I understand Thai well so can distinguish whether the Angry Man on ASTV is saying something sane as “Mary Had A Little Lamb” rather than a non-Thai who may think that same Angry Man was reading a verse from “Mein Kamf”. My Anti-Thaksinism is a very informed choice.
That is why I am saying to any reader of New Mandala, that is OK to be a Thaksinite if that’s the information you have; (i.e. it is OK to be a Nazi if the only think you were taught in youth school was the ideology. ) We can agree to disagree on this (PAD & Protest) — if you think you’ve got all the information, and go on– as I can see so many interesting and very valuable information we can get from New Mandala that can be used to “make things better” for the Nations it covers. This site is a very good exchange of different views 🙂
And its ok, if one can’t answer an ‘unintelligent’ question. It can be quite hard if one doesn’t have answers.
An essay on “the dismal state of Thai education”
#5 If the author was not a “farang”, would your “argument” collapse? And sure — Chula, Thammasat, Mahidol are all full of farang sex-tourists posing as schloars! This response is just such as predictably defensive as is the saliva running out of Pawlow’s doggy.
An essay on “the dismal state of Thai education”
The original could be construed as racist.
Other comments here too. Certainly patronizing!
Whatever!
But notice something else here. Thailand’s expats could be called social outcasts., but I’m not so sure it is really that simple. (Indeed, it’s probably further racism, but I’m far from politically correct either.) I actually think the majority of expat teachers here are a much more rounded bunch than you folks would ever give them credit for. In most cases there is nothing to really stop them going home apart from the fact that they have ‘invested’ heavily here. They could go home and face unemployment because the dumb system at home can no longer be bothered with people with medium-level qualifications. They are looked down on by just about everyone including the Phds here. They also frequently tarred with the expat stereotype by locals. Hence the fact that the Thai government feels that it’s perfectly OK to allow the tutor mill to milk expat teachers dry with ridiculous cultural awareness courses.
Samak Sundaravej
Grasshopper: General “Ayuddhya” was non-existent, though the name was apt for a military leader. It is not clear whom you were referring to.
Nuclear sufficiency
The national flag of Thailand is being defaced at the top of this article. We should holler about this the way the Thai flag was handled at a Manchester City game. So where are ye, all patriots?
Seriously, though, the idea of nuclear power should be explored systematically for Thailand. But I don’t see how that can happen, because in Thailand we are not interested in anything long except money. It does not seem probable that the subject of nuclear power will be given sustained study. Like a torch, it is likely to shine briefly, and is then gone. That, my friends, is how we Thais do things.
Time to go home
karmablues, kuson and sidh: here’s the problem (and you seem unwilling or unable to grasp it) – you see anyone who disagrees with your views and with PAD as being pro-Thaksin. That is not the case. Indeed, as mentioned in the Chang Noi piece, PAD has tried to silence critics (before you jump out of your skins, so too did Thaksin and TRT). And kuson does it again by making what are essentially unsubstantiated allegations that Chang Noi is bought by Thaksin. I’m sure that kuson knows that CN was one of the major critics of Thaksin, his regime, his alleged crimes, etc. (even when kuson was a Thaksin supporter). But when CN criticises PAD, CN must be in the pay of the puppet master. Loopy logic.
But kuson is even more accusatory than this, claiming that all Thaksinites must be supporters because they are bought off. This is a remarkable claim and certainly untrue and it is one that has been regularly made from the PAD stage. But if it were true, then we’d have to assume that kuson, in the period of being “fooled” by Thaksin, was also in the pay of Thaksin. Do you begin to see the problem with this kind of illiberal smearing?
Karmablues makes my point about the rule of law. But the suggestion that one failure to accept the rule of law is better than another failure to accept the rule of law seems illogical.
The suggestion that unless I act like a Thaksinite in and manufacture a Thaksinite response to a dumb question then I must be a Thaksinite is … looking for a polite word … unintelligent. But again it suggests an intolerance of views that are not pro-PAD.
A murderous mix of impunity
This is not surprising. We Thais are a nation of no discipline. We follow our whims. Anything that involves law enforcement usually ends up in failure. It’s seems natural for Thais not to have moral scruples, and this manifests itself in things like murder and banditry, or at least habitual traffic violations, and oftentimes the police look the other way. So don’t get excited about Thailand’s high rating on the incidence of murder. If you can’t change the Thai trait, you can only hope and pray to the many deities that are supposed to protect Thailand.
“Let the electorate judge”
Sidh: I wasn’t asking for a break. And, I do not propose to act as a Thaksin arse polisher or to think up ways of responding for such persons.
kuson: I responded to your continual divisions of the Thai world and NM bloggers into two groups – PAD and Pro-Thaksin. This is simply wrong.
A murderous mix of impunity
Talking about “state of impunity”: do your remember this stupid young guy who drove his car into a crowd because he was angry after a bus would have made a mere scratch to his luxury car… The guy may have been brought to court but is still allowed to drive a car and is not even in jail yet… despite all the witnesses…
More Japanese tales
Moe Aung, you seems to know a lot about old history of Burma. I’ve never heard that claim of Communists. Two years! That was very short for a revolution. But Castro did it in Cuba even against mighty USA, didn’t he, and he is still alive and powerful.
My Father was an officer in BIA and later he joined BCP and he was the divisional commander of 3M division (Ma Thone Lone) i.e. Mandalay, Myingyan, and Meikhtila during the very early fifties. But he died a bitter death after losing the war to his former brothers-in-arms from the same old Burmese army.
General Kyaw Htin was his young lieutenant when he was a battalion commander during the Japanese Revolution. Burmese civil war is a real nasty war among the brothers. I think more than a million people were killed so far since 1948! That is without counting that half a million death of Japanese and Allied soldiers in Burma during the last big war.
An essay on “the dismal state of Thai education”
That certainly is a comprehensive essay. One thing that stood out for me is his criticism of rote learning in Thai schools. Here in the US there was a program on television recently about China and its current state. One of the interviewees was a young fashion photographer who had studied in the US. His opinion was that China really suffers from a lack of imagination and creativity due to its poor education system that also emphasizes rote learning.
I think one could probably make many of the criticisms the author does of students in many places including most universities in the USA these days. Due to the constant testing and the need to teach the material on the test throughout their educational “careers” lots of kids here are also missing out on things like critical thinking skills. And with all the new technology out there they have tiny attention spans. Plus they expect to have everything handed to them because they have been taught their whole lives that they are exceptional.
The Thai state: doing some things right
[…] couple of weeks ago I commented on Thailand’s impressive performance on the Millennium Development Goals. I suggested that the […]
The Republic of Kawthoolei and Thomas Bleming
Are you quite sure that you are’t Bleming”s P.R. man Triumph Chopper or even Thomas Bleming himself ?
“Let the electorate judge”
Sidh: I still reckon 95% of the fuss is about Thaksin and the fear that a new dynasty is being created.
(another untouchable one, that might eventually overtake or at the very least, infiltrate, the old one)
Rule of law is the preferred way to overcome the problem (although compromise could have been been a possibility), but now outright destruction is seen as the only viable alternative.
Thomas Bleming in the news
This Triumph Chopper is a spin doctor for the Bleming camp so one wouldn’t expect too much impartiality….you have downgraded the journalists while employing some of their most deplorable tactics.
An essay on “the dismal state of Thai education”
Fonzi, I always appreciate hearing your opinion, but I don’t see the point in using the R-word. Everybody loves to call everybody else a racist these days, and honestly I don’t even know what it’s supposed to mean anymore. Is “Thai” even a race? Anyway, it is no more racist to say that Thais are ignorant than it is to say that Americans are fat.
Incidentally, I agree with you on the matter of staying somewhere one dislikes. I have resolved relocate elsewhere where there is a strong talent pool and where my kids would grow up in a healthy social environment. I agree with you that the complaining is cliche and boring. It’s just “lazy” this or “incompetent” that or “jumped the shark” the other.
Finally, there was a tongue-in-cheek post on thaivisa recently that stuck with me. The assertion was that so many people complain because they want to be back home but actually can’t return there. The implication was something like running from the law, but I think if you interpret “can’t return” to cover social outcasts, then I believe there is a grain of truth there.
Anyway, these comments are shamefully speculative and vacuous for the hallowed pages of New Mandala, so I shall leave it at that.
An essay on “the dismal state of Thai education”
Maybe it is just me, but I thought the essay was racist and patronizing. And I don’t say that lightly, because I am far from being politically correct.
There seems to be a tendency amongst the foreign intelligentsia–not exactly the cream of the academic crop in their own countries– stuck in Thai academies who look down upon Thais for their shortcomings. Obviously, I don’t include Andrew and Nicholas in this assessment, because they are legitimate scholars (versus farang sex tourists with degrees looking for work in Thai universities.)
I think it was Einstein who said “The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result.”
Whoever wrote this essay states that he has been in Thailand for 9 years and has two young children going through the Thai education system. If the system is as horrific as he makes it out to be, then perhaps he should go back to his superior farang country where he can be free to pursue any vocation he desires free from the Thai BS and his children can be brought up in a proper school system. I think it is hypocritical to rant about the horrendous failings of the Thai education system while willingly and consciously chaining your own children to that system, knowing the negative repercussions and supposed outcomes. That is child abuse, in my opinion.
There seems to be a large segment of the farang community that loves to complain and feel superior to the Thais, because of their own racism and insecurities. There is also a small segment of the farang community that is deeply committed to Thailand and wishes it to succeed at every level. Frankly, I think the author is of the former group rather than the later. Who would in their right mind stay in a profession for 9 years where there is clearly no satisfaction except to feel intellectually and morally superior to your students and colleagues?
Lastly, the essay in itself displayed all the characteristics of what he was criticizing: xenophobia, racism and farang exceptionalism, poorly constructed English, shoddy documentation, and superficiality over substance.
In the final analysis, the author made some good points that I agree with, but those points are not exactly new observations, just rehashing of the same old arguments made by others, notably quotes from Sutichai Yoon and The Nation, not exactly paragons of Thai intellectual virtue.