I agree with Somsak. Michael has done us a great service in his book on identity and democracy, but he needs to be able to explain why he thinks the king should have a role in deciding whether a PM stays or not. Of course, Thaksin needs to explain that as well.
“guilty, gullible and patronizing when it comes to perceptions of the poor and ‘Third World’ countries (always two-steps removed from ‘First World’)” >> That can easily be solved by the “Third World” countries: They could stop importing everything they need from the “First World” and start developing their very own law, medicine, science, and technology, i.e. as fundamentally different from what the West has to offer. But who wants to give up aircon, computers, cars, root canal treatment, and western academic degrees? And even within Western countries, differences in performance standards are reflected in perceptions.
I agree with jonfernquest – it is a song from a particular era and must be viewed in that context. It is probably quite irrelevant today and reflects ‘Thaksin-phobia’ amongst the military elite if anything. However, if Samak become PM, they’ll be a reversal of fortunes so in that sense some of the fear is based on actual threats (and never underestimate money).
I think the Thairath article attached by fall is quite powerful, highlighting the middle-class hypocrisy. However, this distrust and despise of the rural poor isn’t merely a Bangkok-Thai middle-class phenomenon, but is global and Western middle-class voters are as guilty, gullible and patronizing when it comes to perceptions of the poor and ‘Third World’ countries (always two-steps removed from ‘First World’).
But Thairath is probably oversimplifying in saying that it is also extreme selfishness that the Bangkok middle-class come out to “topple the government” – when in fact they wanted to force Thaksin’s resignation which is a democratic right. It is also oversimplifying in saying that the middle-class see “military dictatorship as better than civilian dictatorship” going so far to say that Thailand increasingly resembles Myanmar – a statement that is sensationally irresponsible and needs a lot of qualification. If the CNS did not promise a timetable and pathway back to democracy, the Thai middle-class will not accept and most likely come out in force to protest.
The point on different aspirations and desires between the middle-class and rural poor is well known and valid. The rural poor wants economic development and improvements in their lifestyles and the government that can deliver, while the middle-class wants less corruption and more effective and transparent use of their taxes (the majority of government revenues – and they know that). The politicians know that very well and exploit it for their electoral gain…
It would be nice if Thaiwomen, Beth and as many others as possible, and from differenr regions, would provide readers of NM with ground-level observations about the run-up to the December elections.
Great post Andrew and great responses.
And as usual, we have the ‘Rachomon phenomena’ (to reference pop-culture) and each of us are colored by our subjectivities. We are all simply extending our entrenched biases into the issue of elections and what interesting read!
However, I must say that I find it a tad too partisan that farangman and Andrew teaming up on Thaiwoman – and not Beth for instance. Here’s two foriegners (albeit with knowledge and deep interests in Thai issues) ‘outing’ someone who claims to be from an Isaan village, who seem not to fit their preconceptions. I will say that Beth doesn’t fit the ‘typical’ women from a Northern village either. I think both Thaiwoman and Beth deserves benefit of the doubt (and Thaiwoman has already been upfront stating her half-British background) and I thank them for their opposing accounts (being an Oz-based Bangkokian ignorant of rural society).
About ‘money politics’, it is a common dark side of democracy, of what ever ‘maturity’ level. There is always a ‘price’ to become government, prime minister or president whether you are in the Australia or India – and those who win power are beholden to both business and electorate interests. In a more ‘mature’ democracy it can be presumed that the latter interests is more important than the former – but it is highly complex and never clear cut (not ‘transparent’). It becomes extremely ambiguous when businessmen runs for office as in the case of PMThaksin or even failed businessmen like George W. Bush – and evidences suggest that their policies in government often benefit their respective businesses/industries. PMThaksin’s FTA with China, for instance, seem to benefit his telecommunications business more than Northern farmers who voted his government in.
To reconcile that gap is a critical issue here and we all know that the broad solution is ‘democratic’ education coupled with increased economic wellbeing. Thai voter short-termism can be mitigated but that will take a lot of time and sincere actions by the ruling elites (elected or not – the 2007 constitution does provide excellent provisions, it remains to be seen if they will be implemented) – as in ‘developed’ countries, we are trying to address socio-environment short-termism held hostage by election cycles.
As for EU observations of elections, I don’t think they’ll make much difference.
I note that the infamous Kittiwuttho was also compared to Phra Tewathat in the leadup to the ’76 coup (Somboon Suksamran “Political Monks”). The rhetoric can be appropriated by either side.
I cannot find any strong defense or purpose for extrajudicial killings anywhere in the world. Israel and USA says war on terror justify use of extreme measures (sanctions). But for certain Thaksin’s anti-drugs war cannot be categorized as ‘war on terror’, or could it?
Teth: Vichai is correct, in a way, regarding the “innocents”. The attempt to divide up those killed in the “war on drugs” is missing the point that these were all extrajudicial killings (until proven otherwise) and that means that none of them were proven guilty of anything at the time they were killed. This splitting into innocents and guilty by the so-called independent commission seems to be a way to justify the king’s statements. If you read his statements he considered that the guilty had paid the price. He later said that maybe it had gone to far, but he didn’t seem all that concerned.
Thanks for posting this. It was very interesting and informative.
While I know it is not the author’s intention, I do think confusion might arise from her description of the Lisu and the manau. Some might interpret her chapter to imply that the Lisu were not incorperated into the Kachins until the 1960s. Wbile the Lisu relations with the Kachins are quite complex, particularly with the Rawang (Rawang/Lisu interactions and the split between the Rawang and KIO back in the 1960s would be very interesting dissertation), it does go back before the manau of 1960. I understand that one of the first Kachins killed in the 1915 rebellion was a Lisu from Myitkyina.
“Let me add a few points that would suggest that Thaksin’s extrajudicial rampage was inspired by megalomania and that Thaksin was a psycopath. Thaksin is/was a well educated police lt. colonel, who possessed a Ph.D. in criminal justice from Sam Houston University at Texas, USA. And during all the time that the anti-yaa baa war was going on, from start to horrific finish, the FACE of this war had always been Thaksin Shinawatra(Thaksin wanted the glamor of the kill, so to speak) Thaksin Shinawatra therefore, by his police background and educational achievement, and by his position of PM of Thailand should have insisted that RULE OF LAW should be observed religiously while his war on drugs raged on. At no time, when the reports of abuses and extrajudicial killings were coming out did Thaksin hesitate to investigate or to ask for a pause in the killings. That famous “The United Nations is not my father” outburst of Thaksin Shinawatra was the highlight of exactly where Thaksin Shinawatra stand was in the extra-judicials; e.g., he wanted the Thais and the world to know he was the Maestro.
And further, Thaksin Shinawatra as PM of Thailand at that time, and possessing overwhelming unassailable majority in Thai parliament could have authored the most punishing anti-drugs laws, but DID NOT, but instead chose to deliver shoot-to-kill entertainment to the guillible Thai rurals. That certainly allowed Thaksin Shinawatra to feed his megalomaniac lust to be god-like . . . unfortunately at the expense of horrific carnage to many innocents.“
There was a rumour going around years ago that a couple of high-ranking people were threatened or charged with lese majeste for calling their dogs Sirikit and Bhumipol. Not sure if these rumours were accurate, but they were circulating extensively.
In Sarapee, the overwhelming TRT district, Chuan did visit and was speaking at one ‘Pa Heaw’ (the graveyard – of all the places!). They did their 2006 rally quite freely, IMHO. My folks went and said he spoke well, but of course they ‘elected’ the more charming ‘Kum Mueng spoken’ one of us Mr. Thaksin. He promised, he delivered. Nothing wrong with that! During the visit of Chuan/Abhisit to CM, yes there were banners around town often in the endearing Kum Mueng (Northern dialect) like ‘pik baan’ (go home). Again, some little democratic things of the past…
Of course, we have to be painted violent, with no knowledge of true democracy and have to be educated about it by the generals and their supporters, because there MUST be MARTIAL LAW in Chiangmai!!! I think this is the death threat.
Off topic I suspect, but today I got my first real glimpse into just how popular and highly regarded is his majesty king Bhumipol. Looking through You tube (now accessible) I could not find one single derogatory video of the esteemed king _And I mean NOT ONE! A truly beloved leader, indeed.
Vichai, you are incredibly deluded and yet persistent and stubborn. Presented with clear, repeated statements, you continue on your “FACTS” tirade regardless.
A last attempt shall be made by myself here:
1. How many of those killed were innocents? A specific number, please. They cannot all be innocents nor can they all be drug dealers as we are ALL well aware of. If you don’t have a specific number, just admit that you are vaguely estimating or extrapolating.
2. Don’t keep twisting the HMK’s comment to fit your image of him. He is fallible as we all are. To say he isn’t is to believe the propaganda they spout about him. He is a good man, but he is not infallible. From those comments posted above, it is pretty clear HMK certainly does not feel the same as you do regarding the innocent deaths nor does he share your doggedness is defending the innocent. In fact, he supported the war on drugs.
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Observing an electoral fiction
Great post indeed. In fact, New Mandala is an excellent site altogether. A company of quality thinkers, and contributors. Thanks to all.
I’d be glad to exchange more in the future.
Sovereign Myth
I agree with Somsak. Michael has done us a great service in his book on identity and democracy, but he needs to be able to explain why he thinks the king should have a role in deciding whether a PM stays or not. Of course, Thaksin needs to explain that as well.
Scum of the earth
“guilty, gullible and patronizing when it comes to perceptions of the poor and ‘Third World’ countries (always two-steps removed from ‘First World’)” >> That can easily be solved by the “Third World” countries: They could stop importing everything they need from the “First World” and start developing their very own law, medicine, science, and technology, i.e. as fundamentally different from what the West has to offer. But who wants to give up aircon, computers, cars, root canal treatment, and western academic degrees? And even within Western countries, differences in performance standards are reflected in perceptions.
Sovereign Myth
Thanks.
Scum of the earth
I agree with jonfernquest – it is a song from a particular era and must be viewed in that context. It is probably quite irrelevant today and reflects ‘Thaksin-phobia’ amongst the military elite if anything. However, if Samak become PM, they’ll be a reversal of fortunes so in that sense some of the fear is based on actual threats (and never underestimate money).
I think the Thairath article attached by fall is quite powerful, highlighting the middle-class hypocrisy. However, this distrust and despise of the rural poor isn’t merely a Bangkok-Thai middle-class phenomenon, but is global and Western middle-class voters are as guilty, gullible and patronizing when it comes to perceptions of the poor and ‘Third World’ countries (always two-steps removed from ‘First World’).
But Thairath is probably oversimplifying in saying that it is also extreme selfishness that the Bangkok middle-class come out to “topple the government” – when in fact they wanted to force Thaksin’s resignation which is a democratic right. It is also oversimplifying in saying that the middle-class see “military dictatorship as better than civilian dictatorship” going so far to say that Thailand increasingly resembles Myanmar – a statement that is sensationally irresponsible and needs a lot of qualification. If the CNS did not promise a timetable and pathway back to democracy, the Thai middle-class will not accept and most likely come out in force to protest.
The point on different aspirations and desires between the middle-class and rural poor is well known and valid. The rural poor wants economic development and improvements in their lifestyles and the government that can deliver, while the middle-class wants less corruption and more effective and transparent use of their taxes (the majority of government revenues – and they know that). The politicians know that very well and exploit it for their electoral gain…
Observing an electoral fiction
It would be nice if Thaiwomen, Beth and as many others as possible, and from differenr regions, would provide readers of NM with ground-level observations about the run-up to the December elections.
Observing an electoral fiction
Great post Andrew and great responses.
And as usual, we have the ‘Rachomon phenomena’ (to reference pop-culture) and each of us are colored by our subjectivities. We are all simply extending our entrenched biases into the issue of elections and what interesting read!
However, I must say that I find it a tad too partisan that farangman and Andrew teaming up on Thaiwoman – and not Beth for instance. Here’s two foriegners (albeit with knowledge and deep interests in Thai issues) ‘outing’ someone who claims to be from an Isaan village, who seem not to fit their preconceptions. I will say that Beth doesn’t fit the ‘typical’ women from a Northern village either. I think both Thaiwoman and Beth deserves benefit of the doubt (and Thaiwoman has already been upfront stating her half-British background) and I thank them for their opposing accounts (being an Oz-based Bangkokian ignorant of rural society).
About ‘money politics’, it is a common dark side of democracy, of what ever ‘maturity’ level. There is always a ‘price’ to become government, prime minister or president whether you are in the Australia or India – and those who win power are beholden to both business and electorate interests. In a more ‘mature’ democracy it can be presumed that the latter interests is more important than the former – but it is highly complex and never clear cut (not ‘transparent’). It becomes extremely ambiguous when businessmen runs for office as in the case of PMThaksin or even failed businessmen like George W. Bush – and evidences suggest that their policies in government often benefit their respective businesses/industries. PMThaksin’s FTA with China, for instance, seem to benefit his telecommunications business more than Northern farmers who voted his government in.
To reconcile that gap is a critical issue here and we all know that the broad solution is ‘democratic’ education coupled with increased economic wellbeing. Thai voter short-termism can be mitigated but that will take a lot of time and sincere actions by the ruling elites (elected or not – the 2007 constitution does provide excellent provisions, it remains to be seen if they will be implemented) – as in ‘developed’ countries, we are trying to address socio-environment short-termism held hostage by election cycles.
As for EU observations of elections, I don’t think they’ll make much difference.
Scum of the earth
I note that the infamous Kittiwuttho was also compared to Phra Tewathat in the leadup to the ’76 coup (Somboon Suksamran “Political Monks”). The rhetoric can be appropriated by either side.
Surayud to bring love, harmony and virtue (with strengthened military potential)!
I cannot find any strong defense or purpose for extrajudicial killings anywhere in the world. Israel and USA says war on terror justify use of extreme measures (sanctions). But for certain Thaksin’s anti-drugs war cannot be categorized as ‘war on terror’, or could it?
Manau analysis from Mandy Sadan
Fantastic. Thanks.
Surayud to bring love, harmony and virtue (with strengthened military potential)!
Teth: Vichai is correct, in a way, regarding the “innocents”. The attempt to divide up those killed in the “war on drugs” is missing the point that these were all extrajudicial killings (until proven otherwise) and that means that none of them were proven guilty of anything at the time they were killed. This splitting into innocents and guilty by the so-called independent commission seems to be a way to justify the king’s statements. If you read his statements he considered that the guilty had paid the price. He later said that maybe it had gone to far, but he didn’t seem all that concerned.
Manau analysis from Mandy Sadan
Thanks for posting this. It was very interesting and informative.
While I know it is not the author’s intention, I do think confusion might arise from her description of the Lisu and the manau. Some might interpret her chapter to imply that the Lisu were not incorperated into the Kachins until the 1960s. Wbile the Lisu relations with the Kachins are quite complex, particularly with the Rawang (Rawang/Lisu interactions and the split between the Rawang and KIO back in the 1960s would be very interesting dissertation), it does go back before the manau of 1960. I understand that one of the first Kachins killed in the 1915 rebellion was a Lisu from Myitkyina.
Surayud to bring love, harmony and virtue (with strengthened military potential)!
Vichai N says it best here:
http://thaksinskeptic.wordpress.com/2007/08/10/mitigating-factors-arguing-thaksins-case-ii/#comment-15
“Let me add a few points that would suggest that Thaksin’s extrajudicial rampage was inspired by megalomania and that Thaksin was a psycopath. Thaksin is/was a well educated police lt. colonel, who possessed a Ph.D. in criminal justice from Sam Houston University at Texas, USA. And during all the time that the anti-yaa baa war was going on, from start to horrific finish, the FACE of this war had always been Thaksin Shinawatra(Thaksin wanted the glamor of the kill, so to speak) Thaksin Shinawatra therefore, by his police background and educational achievement, and by his position of PM of Thailand should have insisted that RULE OF LAW should be observed religiously while his war on drugs raged on. At no time, when the reports of abuses and extrajudicial killings were coming out did Thaksin hesitate to investigate or to ask for a pause in the killings. That famous “The United Nations is not my father” outburst of Thaksin Shinawatra was the highlight of exactly where Thaksin Shinawatra stand was in the extra-judicials; e.g., he wanted the Thais and the world to know he was the Maestro.
And further, Thaksin Shinawatra as PM of Thailand at that time, and possessing overwhelming unassailable majority in Thai parliament could have authored the most punishing anti-drugs laws, but DID NOT, but instead chose to deliver shoot-to-kill entertainment to the guillible Thai rurals. That certainly allowed Thaksin Shinawatra to feed his megalomaniac lust to be god-like . . . unfortunately at the expense of horrific carnage to many innocents.“
Strange but true in Laos
There was a rumour going around years ago that a couple of high-ranking people were threatened or charged with lese majeste for calling their dogs Sirikit and Bhumipol. Not sure if these rumours were accurate, but they were circulating extensively.
Sovereign Myth
and another of my respond to Michael’s on the (infamous) speech of Thaksin (“I would resign only if the King whispered in my eyes”)
http://sovereignmyth.blogspot.com/2007/09/fall-of-thaksin.html
Observing an electoral fiction
In Sarapee, the overwhelming TRT district, Chuan did visit and was speaking at one ‘Pa Heaw’ (the graveyard – of all the places!). They did their 2006 rally quite freely, IMHO. My folks went and said he spoke well, but of course they ‘elected’ the more charming ‘Kum Mueng spoken’ one of us Mr. Thaksin. He promised, he delivered. Nothing wrong with that! During the visit of Chuan/Abhisit to CM, yes there were banners around town often in the endearing Kum Mueng (Northern dialect) like ‘pik baan’ (go home). Again, some little democratic things of the past…
Of course, we have to be painted violent, with no knowledge of true democracy and have to be educated about it by the generals and their supporters, because there MUST be MARTIAL LAW in Chiangmai!!! I think this is the death threat.
Sovereign Myth
Thanks for the link to Michael’s blog. Quite interesting. However, I just posted a response to one of his entry (on Nidhi, particularly his reaction to the coup). Anyone interested please see :
http://sovereignmyth.blogspot.com/2007/09/democracy-from-below-nidhi.html
Surayud to bring love, harmony and virtue (with strengthened military potential)!
Teth – (1) All those extrajudicially killed were innocent (2) And yes HMK himself admits he is fallible.
Six threats and one opportunity
Off topic I suspect, but today I got my first real glimpse into just how popular and highly regarded is his majesty king Bhumipol. Looking through You tube (now accessible) I could not find one single derogatory video of the esteemed king _And I mean NOT ONE! A truly beloved leader, indeed.
Surayud to bring love, harmony and virtue (with strengthened military potential)!
Vichai, you are incredibly deluded and yet persistent and stubborn. Presented with clear, repeated statements, you continue on your “FACTS” tirade regardless.
A last attempt shall be made by myself here:
1. How many of those killed were innocents? A specific number, please. They cannot all be innocents nor can they all be drug dealers as we are ALL well aware of. If you don’t have a specific number, just admit that you are vaguely estimating or extrapolating.
2. Don’t keep twisting the HMK’s comment to fit your image of him. He is fallible as we all are. To say he isn’t is to believe the propaganda they spout about him. He is a good man, but he is not infallible. From those comments posted above, it is pretty clear HMK certainly does not feel the same as you do regarding the innocent deaths nor does he share your doggedness is defending the innocent. In fact, he supported the war on drugs.