I do find it sad that I am personally questioned for making a statement on here that clearly does not go along with the seemingly pro-Thaksin line pushed by this website. Maybe I made a mistake in thinking that academics may actually welcome different views and some input from the ground, but I hope not. For those who question my English, my father was British and I was educated there. However, my personal life is my own and I will not discuss that.
Andrew: I agree that how people voted is probably impossible to check. However that does not mean that many Thai people do not think that their vote can be checked. The April 2 election which Iwas talking about also had the voting tables facing in a way where it would be easy for an onlooker to view a vote. Perceptions and maybe urban legends are powerful tools as is suggestion.
As to the intimidation or coercion. Of course there are not reprisals after a vote especially where the coercer got just about what they wanted. I just want to say that coecion in many differnet ways is used in the run up to Thai elections to sway a vote in a particular way, and much of it is not nice. TRT were very good at this. What they were even better at was marketing their brand very well while at the same time denying the opportunity of a counter view in many rural areas. Part of this was the lack of safety for their opponents. Even in downtown Chiang Mai a big name like Chaun Leekpai got attacked as the police looked on. Ordinary people standing up and criiticising Thaksin in his rural and we should not forget feudal strongholds when he was in power was not something many would choose to do. There just were no safety guarantees. Even as a woman I was “warned” enough that I learned to be quieter, and the voice of the woman in the village does not carry much weight.
My village is situated about 20 km from the provincial center. Rice and onion farming are the occupation for the 2000 or so who live there although most tend to middle aged, old or kids as the younger people have moved off to the factories of Ayuthaya, Lampang and a few to the East. There are social splits now between the farmers who may occaisionally do a bit of construction work on a seasonal basis and the young who pretty much prefer the city life and work, and who are now learnign that completion of technical qualifications can get them away. They are probably lucky in some way that they are close enough to the provincial center to study in a college. This is a big change when many of their parents are illiterate.
I am quite happy to give more information or participate in debate, but please dont just attack me for posting. I am sure that I am not the only anonymous poster on here.
I will never find more pro-Thaksin adorers (led by NM’s Andrew Walker) than in NM so this latest bit of news: Deposed Philippine President Joseph Estrada (a better actor than Thaksin Shinawatra I must say) had just been sentenced to life for corruption ($80 million graft it said).
Now what do the NM bloggers think would be a ‘just sentence’ for Thaksin’s mega-corruption?
I accept that point, but I doubt it makes much difference in this case because, as you acknowledge, a score below 5 means a government more corrupt than not.
Is it really likely that massive public corruption at the top would be accompanied by a wave of widespread honesty at the bottom?
I’m curious as to what circumstances you think would cause such a situation.
Hypocrites abound, so I can imagine a powerful figure being in a position to crack down on lower level corruption, and at the same time personally undertaking massive corruption via a close circle of associates (family & business cronies).
“Even when Thaksin was at London then at NY, the Thai protesters would NOT let him off the hook – – so where did Historicus get his conclusion that anti-Thaksin prostesters had quieted down?” – Correction
Had there been no coup in Sept-2006, those street protests to demand the Thaksin resignation would have resumed with the big one slated for Sept-22/06 and pro-Thaksins led by Newin/Yongyuth were also planning a confrontation. That much is fact.
Even when Thaksin was at London then at NY, the Thai protesters would let him off the hook – – so where did Historicus get his conclusion that anti-Thaksin prostesters have quieted down?
The only reason Historicus wishes to rewrite events during Thaksin’s last moments in power was to rebut my thesis that Thai democracy had reached dead-end by Sept-2006 with only the extra-constitutional option (military coup whether by pro-Thaksin or anti-Thaksin) left to resolve the political gridlock and near anarchy at that time.
nganadeeleg:
Thanks for some interesting points there.
1) The relationship between “perceived corruption” and “actual corruption” is more than one of subjectivity and objectivity. If someone perceives the amount of corruption to be low, it will not occur to them to offer a bribe. If they are asked for a bribe and they believe the overall level of corruption to be low, they will be more inclined to denounce the bribe-taker, believing that their complaint will be supported by an on-the-whole honest law enforcement system. Perception and occurrence are intertwined.
2 & 3) We will just have to wait until TI finishes their 2006 & 7 surveys. Personally I really can’t see much difference between the Airport and Shin Corp deal and the many many previous corrupt governments and deals in Thailand. The TI measurement suggests that TRT was less corrupt in day-to-day governance (although, as I said, any score below 5 means a government more corrupt than not).
4) Is it really likely that massive public corruption at the top would be accompanied by a wave of widespread honesty at the bottom? I’m curious as to what circumstances you think would cause such a situation.
It seems you agree that Thaksin was nasty and capable of nasty things.
You also state that Thaksin’s support base remains, and therefore Jeru and his masters are deeply worried.
Can you please explain why a sensible person should not worry about continued support for a person capable of nasty things?
(I presume that by ‘support’ you mean support for his return to power, rather than support in a helping way, such as support for rehabilitation of his nasty ways)
In relation to the post by “thaiwoman”. Given that there was a very substantial “no vote” registered in the north in the April 2006 election why didn’t we see a spate of retribution in the weeks that followed? And given that votes were counted at electorate level how does anyone know who voted for who? Like “farangman” I found your account a little implausible. Can you give us some more general background on the demography and socio-economic position of the village?
I think Jeru, Thai woman and Ngana bring up some good points.
However, I don’t blame poor Thais for being the problem, but rather the worthless Thai media that does nothing to bring these problems to the light of day in a comprehensive factual manner.
Shame is a powerful tool in Thailand. Having reporters and video cameras stationed in notoriously corrupt voting precincts would have an effect, I think. Plus, the media should be doing investigations on the sources of wealth for all the big political players eg Chavalit, Snoh, Barnharn, Sanan, Newin, Samak and all the rest.
Thailand wouldn’t need foreign election monitors if the the Thai press was doing its job.
If the people who you really wish to complain about are ‘untouchable’, you take it out on the peasants instead. These lyrics are the weasel words of those who are too lazy to figure out what the real problem is.
But where is your evidence that Thaksin or the Thaksin government was actually facing (and here I mean that these were current at the time) demonstrations? Maybe this is pedantic, but “impending” is not the same as currently facing demonstrations.
As pointed out previously, from early May until the coup, there was no major/massive street demonstration. My point made in the original post was: “Thaksin was not facing street protests when he was overthrown. Those protests stopped after Prem took leadership of the anti-Thaksin strategy.” There might have been a a threat of renewal of street demonstrations (see below), but big/massive demonstrations had ceased in early May.
Even the threat of a PAD demonstration leading to the coup is not entirely compelling. One reason is because Sonthi Lim was regularly threating this (e.g. on 22 Aug and again on 5 Sept). In August, there were little events-cum-demonstrations in Bangkok (like the Paragon scuffle) and there were reports of a 5,000-10,000 person anti-Thaksin demonstration in Phitsanulok and a very small demonstration in Pranburi.
On the 5 Sept. statement of future threat, PAD leaders said they would announce a resumption date for their protests on 15 Sept. When they did announce, they said that Sonthi’s talk show would be at Sanam Luang on 22 Sept. PAD also threatened a Sept demonstrations in Chiangmai and Buriram.
This date of the 22nd was very quickly changed to a Royal Plaza rally on the 20th, with PAD leaders saying they wanted prevent Thaksin returning to Thailand. Even so, it remained unclear why this new strategy emerged within a couple of hours of the first announcement. Maybe one could infer that they had been told to change the date by their military friends like Saprang? Given the well-known links between Sonthi Lim and Saprang, it is possible, but is is conjecture.
On the day before the coup, PAD announced that it would hold rallies until Thaksin resigned. Of course, PAD never did have to remobilise because the military coup took place.
Sorry to go over old ground for NM readers, but jeru continually makes allegations and seldom provides any facts, so in this case, where jeru has sunk to name-calling, I feel that jeru needs some facts to deal with. Of course, I include some conjecture that jeru will find distasteful in his/her role as defender of the military coup, but at least that conjecture is embedded in some facts, at least as they are portrayed in Bangkok’s newspapers.
thaiwoman, thanks for your comprehensive report on the election shenenigans that your “rural northern family” was subjected to. And while your folk sold their votes after many (death) threats and much cajoling by the evil TRT, they obviously had the education and funds to have their daughter study abroad to learn English to a very high level before returning to the village where you now “live in the community”. Your style of writing and diction is that of a male native speaker of English.
Against this backdrop I appreciate your comments but take your “family history” with a huge grain of salt. Maybe you can add a few words in Thai?!
Re: jon> “Phra Tewatat” is the Thai pronouncation of Devadatta, the Buddha’s cousin who caused the first schism in Buddhism and then attempted to kill the Buddha. He appears early on in the Buddhist cannon as he is a major part of the life story of the Buddha. He is refered to as “Phra” because he will eventually be redeemed in one of his future lives and is destined to become a Buddha himself.
Bangkokpundit: No, I haven’t found any free pdf download so far. In fact, East-West Center policy papers used be free on their web site. But after they teamed up with ISEAS, one will have to pay the latter $S10 for the right to download the piece.
Fall: Oh, I wanted to provide an additional example from Cambodia, because you mentioned Pakistan in your initial post. I also had problems posting the link. It was rejected twice.
Thanks. Good to be reminded that Buddhism can get pulled into politics like this, but don’t see how Thailand’s experience can be analysed in isolation from it’s Asian neighbors, e.g. Indonesia (c. 1965), South Korea (c. 1945-1950), China (c. 1949), Vietnam…etc. friends back in San Francisco hailing from Taiwan always reminded me that their landlord uncles were beheaded by the communists, and later Chiang Kai Shek massacred Taiwanese, and so on, across Asia there were mirror image problems depending on which country you were in, military conflict is a bad thing in itself in which people talk themselves into paroxysms of killing. It’s still going on in Burma. Even worse than Thailand, was Indonesia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overthrow_of_Sukarno#Massacres
[This raises the question of warfare catalysing/perpetuating ideologies in the premodern era which would have to be religiously or ethnically based since modern ideologies like Communism didn’t exist. One thing is for sure, **Buddhist relics** played a big role starting with the Mahaparinibbana Sutta with warfare over relics that later saturates Sri Lankan history in the Culavamsa and Mahavamsa, later echoed in Burmese warfare.]
(Also see Lecture at UC Berkeley Buddhist Studies, Thursday, September 27, 2007, Padmanabh S. Jaini, UC-Berkeley (Emeritus)
Buddhism and Warfare: A Note on Mah─Бvaс╣Гsa)]
So is Phra Tewatat (the stereotypical villain who… betrays parents, nation, religion or king) still implicated in this song?
Does anyone know in which part of the Tipitaka Phra Tewatat can be found and when he started to be used in political ideologies?
Srithanonchai – Did not mean to ignore your comment.
Yes, that’s the link I summarize from. I tried posting the link, but may be my syntax or something wrong. Dunno, strange.
Well, here is my try at a translation. I had it checked by a native speaker, so I hope their are no glaring errors. Any mistakes, of course, remain my own.
I was struck by the agrarian imagery in the first verse, I’m thinking of phrases like “р╣Бр╕Ьр╣Ир╕Щр╕Фр╕┤р╕Щр╕Вр╕нр╕Зр╕гр╕▓р╕Кр╕▒р╕Щр╕вр╣М” and “р╣Бр╕Хр╣Ир╕вр╕▒р╕Зр╕Эр╕▒р╕Зр╕Чр╕│р╕Бр╕┤р╕Щ,” which I think was a good rhetorical choice to combat the potential appeal of communism to the rural population, especially of the Maoist flavor. So with this in mind, I translated “р╕лр╕Щр╕▒р╕Бр╣Бр╕Ьр╣Ир╕Щр╕Фр╕┤р╕Щ” as “A blight upon the earth”
Translation:
р╕Др╕Щр╣Гр╕Фр╣Гр╕Кр╣Йр╕Кр╕╖р╣Ир╕нр╣Др╕Чр╕вр╕нр╕вр╕╣р╣И р╕Бр╕▓р╕вр╕Бр╣Зр╕Фр╕╣р╣Ар╕лр╕бр╕╖р╕нр╕Щр╣Др╕Чр╕вр╕Фр╣Йр╕зр╕вр╕Бр╕▒р╕Щ
Any person who calls themself Thai, and whose physical features resembles a Thai, too;
р╣Др╕Фр╣Йр╕нр╕▓р╕ир╕▒р╕вр╣Вр╕Юр╕Шр╕┤р╣Мр╕Чр╕нр╕Зр╣Бр╕Ьр╣Ир╕Щр╕Фр╕┤р╕Щр╕Вр╕нр╕Зр╕гр╕▓р╕Кр╕▒р╕Щр╕вр╣М р╣Бр╕Хр╣Ир╣Гр╕Ир╕бр╕▒р╕Щр╕вр╕▒р╕Зр╣Ар╕Эр╣Йр╕▓р╕Др╕┤р╕Фр╕Чр╕│р╕ер╕▓р╕в
Living off the golden Bodhi tree and the land of the King, but in their hearts conspiring to harm…
р╕Др╕Щр╣Гр╕Фр╣Ар╕лр╣Зр╕Щр╣Др╕Чр╕вр╣Ар╕Ыр╣Зр╕Щр╕Чр╕▓р╕к р╕Фр╕╣р╕Цр╕╣р╕Бр╕Кр╕▓р╕Хр╕┤р╣Ар╕Кр╕╖р╣Йр╕нр╕Кр╕Щр╕Цр╕┤р╣Ир╕Щр╣Др╕Чр╕в
Any person who sees the Thai as slaves, looking down upon the whole Thai nation;
р╣Бр╕Хр╣Ир╕вр╕▒р╕Зр╕Эр╕▒р╕Зр╕Чр╕│р╕Бр╕┤р╕Щ р╕Бр╕нр╕Ър╣Вр╕Бр╕вр╕кр╕┤р╕Щр╣Др╕Чр╕вр╣Др╕Ы р╣Ар╕лр╕вр╕╡р╕вр╕Фр╕Др╕Щр╣Др╕Чр╕вр╣Ар╕Ыр╣Зр╕Щр╕Чр╕▓р╕кр╕Вр╕нр╕Зр╕бр╕▒р╕Щ
But yet still digging for sustinance and scooping up Thai wealth, while despising the Thai as if they were their slaves…
(р╕кр╕гр╣Йр╕нр╕в)
р╕лр╕Щр╕▒р╕Бр╣Бр╕Ьр╣Ир╕Щр╕Фр╕┤р╕Щ р╕лр╕Щр╕▒р╕Бр╣Бр╕Ьр╣Ир╕Щр╕Фр╕┤р╕Щ р╕Др╕Щр╣Ар╕Кр╣Ир╕Щр╕Щр╕╡р╣Йр╣Ар╕Ыр╣Зр╕Щр╕Др╕Щр╕лр╕Щр╕▒р╕Бр╣Бр╕Ьр╣Ир╕Щр╕Фр╕┤р╕Щ (р╕лр╕Щр╕▒р╕Бр╣Бр╕Ьр╣Ир╕Щр╕Фр╕┤р╕Щ!)
A blight upon the earth, a blight upon the earth. A person like that is a blight upon the earth. (A blight upon the earth!)
р╕лр╕Щр╕▒р╕Бр╣Бр╕Ьр╣Ир╕Щр╕Фр╕┤р╕Щ р╕лр╕Щр╕▒р╕Бр╣Бр╕Ьр╣Ир╕Щр╕Фр╕┤р╕Щ р╕Др╕Щр╣Ар╕Кр╣Ир╕Щр╕Щр╕╡р╣Йр╣Ар╕Ыр╣Зр╕Щр╕Др╕Щр╕лр╕Щр╕▒р╕Бр╣Бр╕Ьр╣Ир╕Щр╕Фр╕┤р╕Щ (р╕лр╕Щр╕▒р╕Бр╣Бр╕Ьр╣Ир╕Щр╕Фр╕┤р╕Щ!)
A blight upon the earth, a blight upon the earth. A person like that is a blight upon the earth. (A blight upon the earth!)
р╕Др╕Щр╣Гр╕Фр╕вр╕╕р╕вр╕Зр╕Ыр╕ер╕╕р╕Бр╕Ыр╕▒р╣Ир╕Щ р╣Др╕Чр╕вр╕Фр╣Йр╕зр╕вр╕Бр╕▒р╕Щр╕лр╕зр╕▒р╕Зр╣Гр╕лр╣Йр╣Бр╕Хр╕Бр╕Бр╕гр╕░р╕Ир╕▓р╕в
Any person who agitates Thais to fight against each other, hoping to break and scatter them;
р╕Ыр╕ер╕╕р╕Бр╕гр╕░р╕Фр╕бр╕бр╕зр╕ер╕Кр╕Щр╣Гр╕лр╣Йр╕кр╕▒р╕Ър╕кр╕Щр╕зр╕╕р╣Ир╕Щр╕зр╕▓р╕в р╣Ар╕Юр╕╖р╣Ир╕нр╕Др╕Щр╣Др╕Чр╕вр╣Бр╕Ър╣Ир╕Зр╕Эр╣Ир╕▓р╕вр╕гр╕Ър╕Бр╕▒р╕Щр╣Ар╕нр╕З
Mustering a mob, giving rise to confusion and chaos; to split up the Thais into factions that fight each other.
р╕Др╕Щр╣Гр╕Фр╕лр╕ер╕Зр╕Кр╕бр╕Кр╕▓р╕Хр╕┤р╕нр╕╖р╣Ир╕Щ р╕Кр╕▓р╕Хр╕┤р╣Ар╕Фр╕╡р╕вр╕зр╕Бр╕▒р╕Щр╣Ар╕Вр╕▓р╕вр╕╖р╕Щр╕Вр╣Ир╕бр╣Ар╕лр╕З
Any person who is lost, admiring other nations, while their own nation they allow to be oppressed;
р╣Др╕Фр╣Йр╕кр╕┤р╕Щр╕Чр╕гр╕▒р╕Юр╕вр╣Мр╣Ар╕Ир╕╖р╕нр╕Ир╕▓р╕Щр╕Бр╣Зр╕Ыр╕гр╕░р╕лр╕▓р╕гр╣Др╕Чр╕вр╕Бр╕▒р╕Щр╣Ар╕нр╕З р╕Чр╕╡р╕Кр╕▓р╕Хр╕┤р╕нр╕╖р╣Ир╕Щр╣Ар╕Бр╕гр╕Зр╕Фр╕▒р╕Зр╕Нр╕▓р╕Хр╕┤р╕Вр╕нр╕Зр╕бр╕▒р╕Щ
Seizing assets so that they may kill their fellow Thais, but respecting other nations like their own relatives…
(р╕кр╕гр╣Йр╕нр╕в)
р╕Др╕Щр╣Гр╕Фр╕Вр╕▓р╕вр╕Хр╕Щр╕Вр╕▓р╕вр╕Кр╕▓р╕Хр╕┤ р╣Др╕Фр╣Йр╣Вр╕нр╕Бр╕▓р╕кр╕Кр╕╡р╣Йр╕Чр╕▓р╕Зр╣Гр╕лр╣Йр╕ир╕▒р╕Хр╕гр╕╣
Any person who sells themself and their nation, creating an opportunity to point the way for the enemy
р╣Ар╕Вр╣Йр╕▓р╕Чр╕ер╕▓р╕вр╕Юр╕ер╕▒р╕Зр╣Др╕Чр╕вр╣Гр╕лр╣Йр╕кр╕ер╕▓р╕вр╕Чр╕▓р╕Зр╕кр╕╣р╣Й р╣Ар╕бр╕╖р╣Ир╕нр╕ир╕▒р╕Хр╕гр╕╣р╣Вр╕Ир╕бр╕Ир╕╣р╣Ир╣Ар╕кр╕╡р╕вр╕Чр╕╡р╕бр╕▒р╕Щ
To collapse Thai power and destroying the will to fight, so when the enemy pounces, we will lose.
р╕Др╕Щр╣Гр╕Фр╕Др╕┤р╕Фр╕гр╣Йр╕▓р╕вр╕гр╕▓р╕зр╕╡ р╕Ыр╕гр╕░р╣Ар╕Юр╕Ур╕╡р╕Вр╕нр╕Зр╣Др╕Чр╕вр╣Др╕бр╣Ир╕Хр╣Йр╕нр╕Зр╕Бр╕▓р╕г
Any person who thinks ill of Thai mores and traditions, Thais have no use [for him].
р╣Ар╕Бр╕╖р╣Йр╕нр╕лр╕Щр╕╕р╕Щр╕нр╕Др╕Хр╕┤ р╣Ар╕Кр╕╖р╣Ир╕нр╕ер╕▒р╕Чр╕Шр╕┤р╕нр╕▒р╕Щр╕Шр╕Юр╕▓р╕е р╣Бр╕Юр╕гр╣Ир╕Щр╕│р╕бр╕▒р╕Щр╕бр╕▓р╕Ър╣Йр╕▓р╕Щр╣Ар╕бр╕╖р╕нр╕Зр╣Ар╕гр╕▓
Supporting bias and immorality, they come to spread their filth in our villages.
(р╕Лр╣Йр╕│р╕Чр╣Ир╕нр╕Щр╕кр╕гр╣Йр╕нр╕в 2 р╕Др╕гр╕▒р╣Йр╕З)
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Observing an electoral fiction
I do find it sad that I am personally questioned for making a statement on here that clearly does not go along with the seemingly pro-Thaksin line pushed by this website. Maybe I made a mistake in thinking that academics may actually welcome different views and some input from the ground, but I hope not. For those who question my English, my father was British and I was educated there. However, my personal life is my own and I will not discuss that.
Andrew: I agree that how people voted is probably impossible to check. However that does not mean that many Thai people do not think that their vote can be checked. The April 2 election which Iwas talking about also had the voting tables facing in a way where it would be easy for an onlooker to view a vote. Perceptions and maybe urban legends are powerful tools as is suggestion.
As to the intimidation or coercion. Of course there are not reprisals after a vote especially where the coercer got just about what they wanted. I just want to say that coecion in many differnet ways is used in the run up to Thai elections to sway a vote in a particular way, and much of it is not nice. TRT were very good at this. What they were even better at was marketing their brand very well while at the same time denying the opportunity of a counter view in many rural areas. Part of this was the lack of safety for their opponents. Even in downtown Chiang Mai a big name like Chaun Leekpai got attacked as the police looked on. Ordinary people standing up and criiticising Thaksin in his rural and we should not forget feudal strongholds when he was in power was not something many would choose to do. There just were no safety guarantees. Even as a woman I was “warned” enough that I learned to be quieter, and the voice of the woman in the village does not carry much weight.
My village is situated about 20 km from the provincial center. Rice and onion farming are the occupation for the 2000 or so who live there although most tend to middle aged, old or kids as the younger people have moved off to the factories of Ayuthaya, Lampang and a few to the East. There are social splits now between the farmers who may occaisionally do a bit of construction work on a seasonal basis and the young who pretty much prefer the city life and work, and who are now learnign that completion of technical qualifications can get them away. They are probably lucky in some way that they are close enough to the provincial center to study in a college. This is a big change when many of their parents are illiterate.
I am quite happy to give more information or participate in debate, but please dont just attack me for posting. I am sure that I am not the only anonymous poster on here.
Observing an electoral fiction
I will never find more pro-Thaksin adorers (led by NM’s Andrew Walker) than in NM so this latest bit of news: Deposed Philippine President Joseph Estrada (a better actor than Thaksin Shinawatra I must say) had just been sentenced to life for corruption ($80 million graft it said).
Now what do the NM bloggers think would be a ‘just sentence’ for Thaksin’s mega-corruption?
Observing an electoral fiction
Perception and occurrence are intertwined
I accept that point, but I doubt it makes much difference in this case because, as you acknowledge, a score below 5 means a government more corrupt than not.
Is it really likely that massive public corruption at the top would be accompanied by a wave of widespread honesty at the bottom?
I’m curious as to what circumstances you think would cause such a situation.
Hypocrites abound, so I can imagine a powerful figure being in a position to crack down on lower level corruption, and at the same time personally undertaking massive corruption via a close circle of associates (family & business cronies).
Six threats and one opportunity
“Even when Thaksin was at London then at NY, the Thai protesters would NOT let him off the hook – – so where did Historicus get his conclusion that anti-Thaksin prostesters had quieted down?” – Correction
Six threats and one opportunity
Had there been no coup in Sept-2006, those street protests to demand the Thaksin resignation would have resumed with the big one slated for Sept-22/06 and pro-Thaksins led by Newin/Yongyuth were also planning a confrontation. That much is fact.
Even when Thaksin was at London then at NY, the Thai protesters would let him off the hook – – so where did Historicus get his conclusion that anti-Thaksin prostesters have quieted down?
The only reason Historicus wishes to rewrite events during Thaksin’s last moments in power was to rebut my thesis that Thai democracy had reached dead-end by Sept-2006 with only the extra-constitutional option (military coup whether by pro-Thaksin or anti-Thaksin) left to resolve the political gridlock and near anarchy at that time.
Observing an electoral fiction
nganadeeleg:
Thanks for some interesting points there.
1) The relationship between “perceived corruption” and “actual corruption” is more than one of subjectivity and objectivity. If someone perceives the amount of corruption to be low, it will not occur to them to offer a bribe. If they are asked for a bribe and they believe the overall level of corruption to be low, they will be more inclined to denounce the bribe-taker, believing that their complaint will be supported by an on-the-whole honest law enforcement system. Perception and occurrence are intertwined.
2 & 3) We will just have to wait until TI finishes their 2006 & 7 surveys. Personally I really can’t see much difference between the Airport and Shin Corp deal and the many many previous corrupt governments and deals in Thailand. The TI measurement suggests that TRT was less corrupt in day-to-day governance (although, as I said, any score below 5 means a government more corrupt than not).
4) Is it really likely that massive public corruption at the top would be accompanied by a wave of widespread honesty at the bottom? I’m curious as to what circumstances you think would cause such a situation.
Six threats and one opportunity
Historicus: Can you please clarify your post #52.
It seems you agree that Thaksin was nasty and capable of nasty things.
You also state that Thaksin’s support base remains, and therefore Jeru and his masters are deeply worried.
Can you please explain why a sensible person should not worry about continued support for a person capable of nasty things?
(I presume that by ‘support’ you mean support for his return to power, rather than support in a helping way, such as support for rehabilitation of his nasty ways)
Observing an electoral fiction
In relation to the post by “thaiwoman”. Given that there was a very substantial “no vote” registered in the north in the April 2006 election why didn’t we see a spate of retribution in the weeks that followed? And given that votes were counted at electorate level how does anyone know who voted for who? Like “farangman” I found your account a little implausible. Can you give us some more general background on the demography and socio-economic position of the village?
Observing an electoral fiction
I think Jeru, Thai woman and Ngana bring up some good points.
However, I don’t blame poor Thais for being the problem, but rather the worthless Thai media that does nothing to bring these problems to the light of day in a comprehensive factual manner.
Shame is a powerful tool in Thailand. Having reporters and video cameras stationed in notoriously corrupt voting precincts would have an effect, I think. Plus, the media should be doing investigations on the sources of wealth for all the big political players eg Chavalit, Snoh, Barnharn, Sanan, Newin, Samak and all the rest.
Thailand wouldn’t need foreign election monitors if the the Thai press was doing its job.
Scum of the earth
If the people who you really wish to complain about are ‘untouchable’, you take it out on the peasants instead. These lyrics are the weasel words of those who are too lazy to figure out what the real problem is.
Six threats and one opportunity
jeru: Apology accepted on point 1.
But where is your evidence that Thaksin or the Thaksin government was actually facing (and here I mean that these were current at the time) demonstrations? Maybe this is pedantic, but “impending” is not the same as currently facing demonstrations.
As pointed out previously, from early May until the coup, there was no major/massive street demonstration. My point made in the original post was: “Thaksin was not facing street protests when he was overthrown. Those protests stopped after Prem took leadership of the anti-Thaksin strategy.” There might have been a a threat of renewal of street demonstrations (see below), but big/massive demonstrations had ceased in early May.
Even the threat of a PAD demonstration leading to the coup is not entirely compelling. One reason is because Sonthi Lim was regularly threating this (e.g. on 22 Aug and again on 5 Sept). In August, there were little events-cum-demonstrations in Bangkok (like the Paragon scuffle) and there were reports of a 5,000-10,000 person anti-Thaksin demonstration in Phitsanulok and a very small demonstration in Pranburi.
On the 5 Sept. statement of future threat, PAD leaders said they would announce a resumption date for their protests on 15 Sept. When they did announce, they said that Sonthi’s talk show would be at Sanam Luang on 22 Sept. PAD also threatened a Sept demonstrations in Chiangmai and Buriram.
This date of the 22nd was very quickly changed to a Royal Plaza rally on the 20th, with PAD leaders saying they wanted prevent Thaksin returning to Thailand. Even so, it remained unclear why this new strategy emerged within a couple of hours of the first announcement. Maybe one could infer that they had been told to change the date by their military friends like Saprang? Given the well-known links between Sonthi Lim and Saprang, it is possible, but is is conjecture.
On the day before the coup, PAD announced that it would hold rallies until Thaksin resigned. Of course, PAD never did have to remobilise because the military coup took place.
Sorry to go over old ground for NM readers, but jeru continually makes allegations and seldom provides any facts, so in this case, where jeru has sunk to name-calling, I feel that jeru needs some facts to deal with. Of course, I include some conjecture that jeru will find distasteful in his/her role as defender of the military coup, but at least that conjecture is embedded in some facts, at least as they are portrayed in Bangkok’s newspapers.
Observing an electoral fiction
thaiwoman, thanks for your comprehensive report on the election shenenigans that your “rural northern family” was subjected to. And while your folk sold their votes after many (death) threats and much cajoling by the evil TRT, they obviously had the education and funds to have their daughter study abroad to learn English to a very high level before returning to the village where you now “live in the community”. Your style of writing and diction is that of a male native speaker of English.
Against this backdrop I appreciate your comments but take your “family history” with a huge grain of salt. Maybe you can add a few words in Thai?!
Scum of the earth
Re: jon> “Phra Tewatat” is the Thai pronouncation of Devadatta, the Buddha’s cousin who caused the first schism in Buddhism and then attempted to kill the Buddha. He appears early on in the Buddhist cannon as he is a major part of the life story of the Buddha. He is refered to as “Phra” because he will eventually be redeemed in one of his future lives and is destined to become a Buddha himself.
Awal Mula Permainan Bandarqq Online
Bangkokpundit: No, I haven’t found any free pdf download so far. In fact, East-West Center policy papers used be free on their web site. But after they teamed up with ISEAS, one will have to pay the latter $S10 for the right to download the piece.
Observing an electoral fiction
Fall: Oh, I wanted to provide an additional example from Cambodia, because you mentioned Pakistan in your initial post. I also had problems posting the link. It was rejected twice.
Scum of the earth
Thanks. Good to be reminded that Buddhism can get pulled into politics like this, but don’t see how Thailand’s experience can be analysed in isolation from it’s Asian neighbors, e.g. Indonesia (c. 1965), South Korea (c. 1945-1950), China (c. 1949), Vietnam…etc. friends back in San Francisco hailing from Taiwan always reminded me that their landlord uncles were beheaded by the communists, and later Chiang Kai Shek massacred Taiwanese, and so on, across Asia there were mirror image problems depending on which country you were in, military conflict is a bad thing in itself in which people talk themselves into paroxysms of killing. It’s still going on in Burma. Even worse than Thailand, was Indonesia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overthrow_of_Sukarno#Massacres
[This raises the question of warfare catalysing/perpetuating ideologies in the premodern era which would have to be religiously or ethnically based since modern ideologies like Communism didn’t exist. One thing is for sure, **Buddhist relics** played a big role starting with the Mahaparinibbana Sutta with warfare over relics that later saturates Sri Lankan history in the Culavamsa and Mahavamsa, later echoed in Burmese warfare.]
(Also see Lecture at UC Berkeley Buddhist Studies, Thursday, September 27, 2007, Padmanabh S. Jaini, UC-Berkeley (Emeritus)
Buddhism and Warfare: A Note on Mah─Бvaс╣Гsa)]
So is Phra Tewatat (the stereotypical villain who… betrays parents, nation, religion or king) still implicated in this song?
Does anyone know in which part of the Tipitaka Phra Tewatat can be found and when he started to be used in political ideologies?
Awal Mula Permainan Bandarqq Online
Srithanonchai: Thanks. I don’t know why for the life of me I didn’t do a Google Scholar search. Have you now been able to find a free PDF download?
Marc: That is journalists for you. Thank you for your reply. Having skimmed through the abstract of Asian Security paper I find it interesting.
Observing an electoral fiction
Srithanonchai – Did not mean to ignore your comment.
Yes, that’s the link I summarize from. I tried posting the link, but may be my syntax or something wrong. Dunno, strange.
Scum of the earth
Thank you!
Scum of the earth
Well, here is my try at a translation. I had it checked by a native speaker, so I hope their are no glaring errors. Any mistakes, of course, remain my own.
I was struck by the agrarian imagery in the first verse, I’m thinking of phrases like “р╣Бр╕Ьр╣Ир╕Щр╕Фр╕┤р╕Щр╕Вр╕нр╕Зр╕гр╕▓р╕Кр╕▒р╕Щр╕вр╣М” and “р╣Бр╕Хр╣Ир╕вр╕▒р╕Зр╕Эр╕▒р╕Зр╕Чр╕│р╕Бр╕┤р╕Щ,” which I think was a good rhetorical choice to combat the potential appeal of communism to the rural population, especially of the Maoist flavor. So with this in mind, I translated “р╕лр╕Щр╕▒р╕Бр╣Бр╕Ьр╣Ир╕Щр╕Фр╕┤р╕Щ” as “A blight upon the earth”
Translation:
р╕Др╕Щр╣Гр╕Фр╣Гр╕Кр╣Йр╕Кр╕╖р╣Ир╕нр╣Др╕Чр╕вр╕нр╕вр╕╣р╣И р╕Бр╕▓р╕вр╕Бр╣Зр╕Фр╕╣р╣Ар╕лр╕бр╕╖р╕нр╕Щр╣Др╕Чр╕вр╕Фр╣Йр╕зр╕вр╕Бр╕▒р╕Щ
Any person who calls themself Thai, and whose physical features resembles a Thai, too;
р╣Др╕Фр╣Йр╕нр╕▓р╕ир╕▒р╕вр╣Вр╕Юр╕Шр╕┤р╣Мр╕Чр╕нр╕Зр╣Бр╕Ьр╣Ир╕Щр╕Фр╕┤р╕Щр╕Вр╕нр╕Зр╕гр╕▓р╕Кр╕▒р╕Щр╕вр╣М р╣Бр╕Хр╣Ир╣Гр╕Ир╕бр╕▒р╕Щр╕вр╕▒р╕Зр╣Ар╕Эр╣Йр╕▓р╕Др╕┤р╕Фр╕Чр╕│р╕ер╕▓р╕в
Living off the golden Bodhi tree and the land of the King, but in their hearts conspiring to harm…
р╕Др╕Щр╣Гр╕Фр╣Ар╕лр╣Зр╕Щр╣Др╕Чр╕вр╣Ар╕Ыр╣Зр╕Щр╕Чр╕▓р╕к р╕Фр╕╣р╕Цр╕╣р╕Бр╕Кр╕▓р╕Хр╕┤р╣Ар╕Кр╕╖р╣Йр╕нр╕Кр╕Щр╕Цр╕┤р╣Ир╕Щр╣Др╕Чр╕в
Any person who sees the Thai as slaves, looking down upon the whole Thai nation;
р╣Бр╕Хр╣Ир╕вр╕▒р╕Зр╕Эр╕▒р╕Зр╕Чр╕│р╕Бр╕┤р╕Щ р╕Бр╕нр╕Ър╣Вр╕Бр╕вр╕кр╕┤р╕Щр╣Др╕Чр╕вр╣Др╕Ы р╣Ар╕лр╕вр╕╡р╕вр╕Фр╕Др╕Щр╣Др╕Чр╕вр╣Ар╕Ыр╣Зр╕Щр╕Чр╕▓р╕кр╕Вр╕нр╕Зр╕бр╕▒р╕Щ
But yet still digging for sustinance and scooping up Thai wealth, while despising the Thai as if they were their slaves…
(р╕кр╕гр╣Йр╕нр╕в)
р╕лр╕Щр╕▒р╕Бр╣Бр╕Ьр╣Ир╕Щр╕Фр╕┤р╕Щ р╕лр╕Щр╕▒р╕Бр╣Бр╕Ьр╣Ир╕Щр╕Фр╕┤р╕Щ р╕Др╕Щр╣Ар╕Кр╣Ир╕Щр╕Щр╕╡р╣Йр╣Ар╕Ыр╣Зр╕Щр╕Др╕Щр╕лр╕Щр╕▒р╕Бр╣Бр╕Ьр╣Ир╕Щр╕Фр╕┤р╕Щ (р╕лр╕Щр╕▒р╕Бр╣Бр╕Ьр╣Ир╕Щр╕Фр╕┤р╕Щ!)
A blight upon the earth, a blight upon the earth. A person like that is a blight upon the earth. (A blight upon the earth!)
р╕лр╕Щр╕▒р╕Бр╣Бр╕Ьр╣Ир╕Щр╕Фр╕┤р╕Щ р╕лр╕Щр╕▒р╕Бр╣Бр╕Ьр╣Ир╕Щр╕Фр╕┤р╕Щ р╕Др╕Щр╣Ар╕Кр╣Ир╕Щр╕Щр╕╡р╣Йр╣Ар╕Ыр╣Зр╕Щр╕Др╕Щр╕лр╕Щр╕▒р╕Бр╣Бр╕Ьр╣Ир╕Щр╕Фр╕┤р╕Щ (р╕лр╕Щр╕▒р╕Бр╣Бр╕Ьр╣Ир╕Щр╕Фр╕┤р╕Щ!)
A blight upon the earth, a blight upon the earth. A person like that is a blight upon the earth. (A blight upon the earth!)
р╕Др╕Щр╣Гр╕Фр╕вр╕╕р╕вр╕Зр╕Ыр╕ер╕╕р╕Бр╕Ыр╕▒р╣Ир╕Щ р╣Др╕Чр╕вр╕Фр╣Йр╕зр╕вр╕Бр╕▒р╕Щр╕лр╕зр╕▒р╕Зр╣Гр╕лр╣Йр╣Бр╕Хр╕Бр╕Бр╕гр╕░р╕Ир╕▓р╕в
Any person who agitates Thais to fight against each other, hoping to break and scatter them;
р╕Ыр╕ер╕╕р╕Бр╕гр╕░р╕Фр╕бр╕бр╕зр╕ер╕Кр╕Щр╣Гр╕лр╣Йр╕кр╕▒р╕Ър╕кр╕Щр╕зр╕╕р╣Ир╕Щр╕зр╕▓р╕в р╣Ар╕Юр╕╖р╣Ир╕нр╕Др╕Щр╣Др╕Чр╕вр╣Бр╕Ър╣Ир╕Зр╕Эр╣Ир╕▓р╕вр╕гр╕Ър╕Бр╕▒р╕Щр╣Ар╕нр╕З
Mustering a mob, giving rise to confusion and chaos; to split up the Thais into factions that fight each other.
р╕Др╕Щр╣Гр╕Фр╕лр╕ер╕Зр╕Кр╕бр╕Кр╕▓р╕Хр╕┤р╕нр╕╖р╣Ир╕Щ р╕Кр╕▓р╕Хр╕┤р╣Ар╕Фр╕╡р╕вр╕зр╕Бр╕▒р╕Щр╣Ар╕Вр╕▓р╕вр╕╖р╕Щр╕Вр╣Ир╕бр╣Ар╕лр╕З
Any person who is lost, admiring other nations, while their own nation they allow to be oppressed;
р╣Др╕Фр╣Йр╕кр╕┤р╕Щр╕Чр╕гр╕▒р╕Юр╕вр╣Мр╣Ар╕Ир╕╖р╕нр╕Ир╕▓р╕Щр╕Бр╣Зр╕Ыр╕гр╕░р╕лр╕▓р╕гр╣Др╕Чр╕вр╕Бр╕▒р╕Щр╣Ар╕нр╕З р╕Чр╕╡р╕Кр╕▓р╕Хр╕┤р╕нр╕╖р╣Ир╕Щр╣Ар╕Бр╕гр╕Зр╕Фр╕▒р╕Зр╕Нр╕▓р╕Хр╕┤р╕Вр╕нр╕Зр╕бр╕▒р╕Щ
Seizing assets so that they may kill their fellow Thais, but respecting other nations like their own relatives…
(р╕кр╕гр╣Йр╕нр╕в)
р╕Др╕Щр╣Гр╕Фр╕Вр╕▓р╕вр╕Хр╕Щр╕Вр╕▓р╕вр╕Кр╕▓р╕Хр╕┤ р╣Др╕Фр╣Йр╣Вр╕нр╕Бр╕▓р╕кр╕Кр╕╡р╣Йр╕Чр╕▓р╕Зр╣Гр╕лр╣Йр╕ир╕▒р╕Хр╕гр╕╣
Any person who sells themself and their nation, creating an opportunity to point the way for the enemy
р╣Ар╕Вр╣Йр╕▓р╕Чр╕ер╕▓р╕вр╕Юр╕ер╕▒р╕Зр╣Др╕Чр╕вр╣Гр╕лр╣Йр╕кр╕ер╕▓р╕вр╕Чр╕▓р╕Зр╕кр╕╣р╣Й р╣Ар╕бр╕╖р╣Ир╕нр╕ир╕▒р╕Хр╕гр╕╣р╣Вр╕Ир╕бр╕Ир╕╣р╣Ир╣Ар╕кр╕╡р╕вр╕Чр╕╡р╕бр╕▒р╕Щ
To collapse Thai power and destroying the will to fight, so when the enemy pounces, we will lose.
р╕Др╕Щр╣Гр╕Фр╕Др╕┤р╕Фр╕гр╣Йр╕▓р╕вр╕гр╕▓р╕зр╕╡ р╕Ыр╕гр╕░р╣Ар╕Юр╕Ур╕╡р╕Вр╕нр╕Зр╣Др╕Чр╕вр╣Др╕бр╣Ир╕Хр╣Йр╕нр╕Зр╕Бр╕▓р╕г
Any person who thinks ill of Thai mores and traditions, Thais have no use [for him].
р╣Ар╕Бр╕╖р╣Йр╕нр╕лр╕Щр╕╕р╕Щр╕нр╕Др╕Хр╕┤ р╣Ар╕Кр╕╖р╣Ир╕нр╕ер╕▒р╕Чр╕Шр╕┤р╕нр╕▒р╕Щр╕Шр╕Юр╕▓р╕е р╣Бр╕Юр╕гр╣Ир╕Щр╕│р╕бр╕▒р╕Щр╕бр╕▓р╕Ър╣Йр╕▓р╕Щр╣Ар╕бр╕╖р╕нр╕Зр╣Ар╕гр╕▓
Supporting bias and immorality, they come to spread their filth in our villages.
(р╕Лр╣Йр╕│р╕Чр╣Ир╕нр╕Щр╕кр╕гр╣Йр╕нр╕в 2 р╕Др╕гр╕▒р╣Йр╕З)