For the record, I have never applauded Thaksin for anything.
I thought the War on Drugs was a good idea. Like most law-abiding people in the country, I was sick and tired of seeing crazy Ya Ba psychos holding people at knife point in the news everyday. I was tired of seeing our youth being eaten away by what was a very serious drug scourge at the time.
And, during that war, I was outraged that only the small fish were being fried, when the fact remains that police and military generals have been integral to the drug trade for decades, which probably is the reason for all the extra-judicial killings. All the little guys were being murdered so they wouldn’t rat on the big guys.
Thailand has been a entrepot for the international drug trade for hundreds of years. Police and military forces have been involved with this trade for decades, and have murdered people who have upset their vice rackets. This isn’t something I made up. This information is documented in many books.
To say Thaksin was responsible for all the recent murder and mayhem regarding that trade is ludicrous. There is not one piece of evidence documented proving that Thaksin was telling the police and military to murder drug dealers. If there was, how come the current juntacrats haven’t given us the documentation? Why haven’t they slipped the information to the junta friend Thai press.
Those who attack Thaksin for human rights abuses seem to conveniently forget that the police and military have been at the core of extra-judicial violence since 1932 and they are still at the core of extra-judicial violence today.
After all, they, not Thaksin, are the ones with the weapons, and they have proved this time and time again every time they have capriciously overthrown the government by marching soldiers and tanks into the center of Bangkok, and when they have made people mysteriously disappear every time anybody has opposed their rule.
Some of Thaksin haters here think Thai history began in 2001; it didn’t.
[…] of the rural poor to identify and advance their own interests through the electoral process. (See a summary of this essay by Andrew Walker of Australian National University for eloquent statement of this argument; […]
And the biography of Sao S─Бimöng Mangr─Бi would not be complete without the letters he exchanged with Luce in the 1950s which he asks for advice on studying Shan history which may actually have inspired Luce to write his two papers on Syam in JSS (or vice versa).
I wonder whether Sao S─Бimöng Mangr─Бi papers are stored in a library collection somewhere. Someone told me they were lost. Bibliographical entries from my paper for the letters:
Luce, Gordon Hannington (1957). Letter to Sao Saimong Mangrai, extracts are given in (Mangrai, 1965), cited in (Witthayasakphan, 2001c). [Written in response to a letter written to Luce in August 1957 asking for advice on writing a history of the Shan States]
Mangrai, Sao Saimong (1965). The Shan States and the British Annexation. Data Paper No. 57 Southeast Asia Program, Cornell University.
P.S. the index to Scott’s Shan manuscripts at Cambridge are supposedly available online now. Does anyone have an URL?
It’s frustrating to use Scott’s Gazetteer and Elias from the 19th century as secondhand sources for the Hsenwi and Mong Mao chronicles. Does anyone know where the manuscripts are or whether they will be published in the future?
Democratus: If you are talking about the coup, yes I have chosen to accept it, and to date, any human rights abuses under the junta’s reign are not in the same league as those under Thaksin’s reign (thankfully).
It’s not a perfect world, but at least the very dangerous Thaksin is out of power – it’s a pity it took the military to do something that the masses should have done.
Anyway, IMO some human rights are more important than others, and if valuing the right to life over the right to protest means I am labelled an apologist for the junta, then so be it.
If you are a regular reader of New Mandala you should know that there are recurring themes being promoted by regular posters here:
AW: Defends the masses for making wise choices – prepared to gloss over any Thaksin wrongdoings.
Republican: Hates the monarchy and many of his fellow academics
Nganadeeleg: see myself as the antidote to AW & Republican – Critical of Thaksin, critical of TRT for not standing up to him & critical of the electoral masses for not rejecting him once his real objectives became apparent.
(Accepts the junta ridding Thailand of Thaksin because the people wouldn’t, and hopes the people will learn something from the Thaksin experience and be more discerning in the future as it’s the only way for the cycle of coups to stop)
Vichai: Early posts were over the top, but has ended up one of the most sensible posters here.
Bangkok Pundit either you condemn or applaud Thaksin Shinawatra PERSONALLY for the extrajudicially killings or not? So which one are you?
I have made occassional forays in your blogsite . . . you have NOT made clear your position either way . . so I assume, oh well, “breaking up with Thaksin is so hard to do . . . ” Unless you are with the evidence camp a-la Fonzi, I mean Tosakan, Patiwat (your sidekick) and many more Manchester City followers and fans . . .
Please vote for the constitution to promote more rights for all of the Thai people. If you don’t they may give you a worse constitution and I will have my testicles electrocuted.
“Nearly every Thai, nearly every newspaper, nearly every bloggers in this forum and Andrew Walker, Bangkok Pundit and ThailandJumpedtheShark, were all APPLAUDING Thaksin Shinawatra as the man responsible for the success of 2002-05 anti-drugs! Nearly everyone”
Do you have any evidence to back up your claim about moi? Although, it is typical of you to make wild allegations without supporting evidence.
Nearly every Thai, nearly every newspaper, nearly every bloggers in this forum and Andrew Walker, Bangkok Pundit and ThailandJumpedtheShark, were all APPLAUDING Thaksin Shinawatra as the man responsible for the success of 2002-05 anti-drugs! Nearly everyone.
I think what they is left for debate is the matter of statistics: was it 2,500, or 3,500 or 8,000 villagers that were extrajudicially killed during Thaksin’s extrajudicial rampage Tosakan?
Vichai, I would say that by this metaphor you believe that nobody in Thailand has the legitimacy to lead anyone?
I think you should be more concerned with a constitution that is going to be promoting a much more ruthless governance than experienced under TRT; as opposed to using your energy to hate Thaksin himself. He is only one man. The elitism still prevails.
Vichai, ‘Think for yourself, question authority’? Alright – since you say so!
So the people who are convinced by a reformation of TRT, the King, the new constitution or even The Andrew “Dastardly” Walker – are irrelevant?
Remember Vichai that they are people too. As for your arguments, they have now been debunked because it is obvious that your motivation lies within not having the power that others do. Maybe put in the hard work and you will become relevant to some people too!
Where are your condemnations of human rights abuses now? Where are your condemnations of the use of police and military power to prevent political expression? Where have you condemned the current spate of killings and arbitrary arrests and unlawful detentions in the south by an out of control military?
I have expressed my views in relation to the UDD protest violence over at Bangkok Pundit’s site:
In a nutshell, from what I have seen, I think the police and military were surprisingly restrained when the UDD tried to provoke violence.
In relation to the arrest of the UDD leaders, I have said that I would prefer if they were released under strict bail conditions to keep the protests at a designated area (Sanam Luang)
As for other human rights abuses under the junta, well IMO they pale into insignificance when compared to Thaksin’s reign, particularly his extra-judicial ‘war on drugs’ killing spree, however I have expressed my concerns about the heavy handedness in dealing with the southern insurgency and possible vigilante killings from time to time (mainly on Bangkok Pundit’s blog site), where I stressed the importance of justice.
I certainly don’t want to see a repeat of the heavy handedness that occurred under Thaksin’s leadership, so I welcome the addition of your voice in this matter.
You should also bear in mind that the main reason I bother to comment here is to counter the Thaksin ‘love-in’ that Andrew, Republican and a few others have created here at New Mandala.
Of course I have concerns about where Thai politics is heading under the junta, but I also disagree with Andrew’s main theme that Thaksin had an electoral majority and therefore all his wrongdoings are irrelevant.
Where is your evidence, in Thai or English, that Thaksin was personally responsible for every extra-judicial killing during the War on Drugs? Where is the smoking gun?
Presumably you are not now denying that extra-judicial killings took place?
– Who instigated the ‘war on drugs’ ?
– Who was the authoritarian/autocratic leader at the time who had the power to modify the rules of engagement to stop the killing spree as soon as it was known what was happening?
– Who had the power to commence thorough investigations while the evidence was fresh?
– How many victims of the Holocaust did Hitler personally kill?
Tosakan (Fonzi), you seem to have changed your mind about the war on drugs over recent months – I recall you previously saying you were so concerned about it in the past that you wrote letters to the editors of papers about it – What new evidence do you have to make you change your mind?
well all such terms like “conservative” are dependent on their context to have any meaning, but relative to say opinion in Europe or Australia your point is valid. But this guy is not one of true Bush-believers–he’s sponsoring a bill now to increase health care access for children through increased cigarette taxes. I know, I know, the fact America even needs such a bill reflects the barbarism of our society and our pitiful welfare state, but to be for it as a Republican is within the context of mainstream American politics practically and act of political courage.
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Sufficiency democracy in action
For the record, I have never applauded Thaksin for anything.
I thought the War on Drugs was a good idea. Like most law-abiding people in the country, I was sick and tired of seeing crazy Ya Ba psychos holding people at knife point in the news everyday. I was tired of seeing our youth being eaten away by what was a very serious drug scourge at the time.
And, during that war, I was outraged that only the small fish were being fried, when the fact remains that police and military generals have been integral to the drug trade for decades, which probably is the reason for all the extra-judicial killings. All the little guys were being murdered so they wouldn’t rat on the big guys.
Thailand has been a entrepot for the international drug trade for hundreds of years. Police and military forces have been involved with this trade for decades, and have murdered people who have upset their vice rackets. This isn’t something I made up. This information is documented in many books.
To say Thaksin was responsible for all the recent murder and mayhem regarding that trade is ludicrous. There is not one piece of evidence documented proving that Thaksin was telling the police and military to murder drug dealers. If there was, how come the current juntacrats haven’t given us the documentation? Why haven’t they slipped the information to the junta friend Thai press.
Those who attack Thaksin for human rights abuses seem to conveniently forget that the police and military have been at the core of extra-judicial violence since 1932 and they are still at the core of extra-judicial violence today.
After all, they, not Thaksin, are the ones with the weapons, and they have proved this time and time again every time they have capriciously overthrown the government by marching soldiers and tanks into the center of Bangkok, and when they have made people mysteriously disappear every time anybody has opposed their rule.
Some of Thaksin haters here think Thai history began in 2001; it didn’t.
The Nation on the rural constitution
[…] of the rural poor to identify and advance their own interests through the electoral process. (See a summary of this essay by Andrew Walker of Australian National University for eloquent statement of this argument; […]
A new look for NM
The old theme was aesthetically more appeasing I think. However, if this is more functional then as a man, I cannot judge!
Mangrais of Kengtung
Thanks for the link.
And the biography of Sao S─Бimöng Mangr─Бi would not be complete without the letters he exchanged with Luce in the 1950s which he asks for advice on studying Shan history which may actually have inspired Luce to write his two papers on Syam in JSS (or vice versa).
I wonder whether Sao S─Бimöng Mangr─Бi papers are stored in a library collection somewhere. Someone told me they were lost. Bibliographical entries from my paper for the letters:
Luce, Gordon Hannington (1957). Letter to Sao Saimong Mangrai, extracts are given in (Mangrai, 1965), cited in (Witthayasakphan, 2001c). [Written in response to a letter written to Luce in August 1957 asking for advice on writing a history of the Shan States]
Mangrai, Sao Saimong (1965). The Shan States and the British Annexation. Data Paper No. 57 Southeast Asia Program, Cornell University.
P.S. the index to Scott’s Shan manuscripts at Cambridge are supposedly available online now. Does anyone have an URL?
It’s frustrating to use Scott’s Gazetteer and Elias from the 19th century as secondhand sources for the Hsenwi and Mong Mao chronicles. Does anyone know where the manuscripts are or whether they will be published in the future?
Sufficiency democracy in action
Let’s hear it from Bangkok Pundit – – how judge he Thaksin’s extra-judicial record?
Sufficiency democracy in action
Democratus: If you are talking about the coup, yes I have chosen to accept it, and to date, any human rights abuses under the junta’s reign are not in the same league as those under Thaksin’s reign (thankfully).
It’s not a perfect world, but at least the very dangerous Thaksin is out of power – it’s a pity it took the military to do something that the masses should have done.
Anyway, IMO some human rights are more important than others, and if valuing the right to life over the right to protest means I am labelled an apologist for the junta, then so be it.
If you are a regular reader of New Mandala you should know that there are recurring themes being promoted by regular posters here:
AW: Defends the masses for making wise choices – prepared to gloss over any Thaksin wrongdoings.
Republican: Hates the monarchy and many of his fellow academics
Nganadeeleg: see myself as the antidote to AW & Republican – Critical of Thaksin, critical of TRT for not standing up to him & critical of the electoral masses for not rejecting him once his real objectives became apparent.
(Accepts the junta ridding Thailand of Thaksin because the people wouldn’t, and hopes the people will learn something from the Thaksin experience and be more discerning in the future as it’s the only way for the cycle of coups to stop)
Vichai: Early posts were over the top, but has ended up one of the most sensible posters here.
Where do you stand, Democratus?
Sufficiency democracy in action
So, in other words, nganadeeleg you are an apologist for the junta!
IMHO you can’t pick and choose which human rights abusers you support.
Vichai, where are you on this?
Captive audience
Was that a pro-forma letter drafted for Thaksin-in-jail-maybe-soon Andrew?
You have a morbid sense of humor Andrew W I can give you that . . .
Sufficiency democracy in action
Bangkok Pundit either you condemn or applaud Thaksin Shinawatra PERSONALLY for the extrajudicially killings or not? So which one are you?
I have made occassional forays in your blogsite . . . you have NOT made clear your position either way . . so I assume, oh well, “breaking up with Thaksin is so hard to do . . . ” Unless you are with the evidence camp a-la Fonzi, I mean Tosakan, Patiwat (your sidekick) and many more Manchester City followers and fans . . .
Captive audience
Thanks observer! Any other letters from prisoners would be very welcome.
Captive audience
Dear Mom,
Please vote for the constitution to promote more rights for all of the Thai people. If you don’t they may give you a worse constitution and I will have my testicles electrocuted.
Love,
Somchai
Sufficiency democracy in action
et moi?
Captive audience
“…inmates at 134 prisons across the country have been asked… send letters to their families to promote the referendum…”
Hmm.. next letter should be “There is no sexual abuse in prison. The bedding is five star with room service. And food are better than Hilton”.
Quite disturbing on what the guards can or cannot tell inmates to do.
Sufficiency democracy in action
“Nearly every Thai, nearly every newspaper, nearly every bloggers in this forum and Andrew Walker, Bangkok Pundit and ThailandJumpedtheShark, were all APPLAUDING Thaksin Shinawatra as the man responsible for the success of 2002-05 anti-drugs! Nearly everyone”
Do you have any evidence to back up your claim about moi? Although, it is typical of you to make wild allegations without supporting evidence.
Sufficiency democracy in action
But Tosakan I am NOT the only one!
Nearly every Thai, nearly every newspaper, nearly every bloggers in this forum and Andrew Walker, Bangkok Pundit and ThailandJumpedtheShark, were all APPLAUDING Thaksin Shinawatra as the man responsible for the success of 2002-05 anti-drugs! Nearly everyone.
I think what they is left for debate is the matter of statistics: was it 2,500, or 3,500 or 8,000 villagers that were extrajudicially killed during Thaksin’s extrajudicial rampage Tosakan?
Governing by the gun
Vichai, I would say that by this metaphor you believe that nobody in Thailand has the legitimacy to lead anyone?
I think you should be more concerned with a constitution that is going to be promoting a much more ruthless governance than experienced under TRT; as opposed to using your energy to hate Thaksin himself. He is only one man. The elitism still prevails.
Sorry, sorry – thinking for myself.
Sufficiency democracy in action
Vichai, ‘Think for yourself, question authority’? Alright – since you say so!
So the people who are convinced by a reformation of TRT, the King, the new constitution or even The Andrew “Dastardly” Walker – are irrelevant?
Remember Vichai that they are people too. As for your arguments, they have now been debunked because it is obvious that your motivation lies within not having the power that others do. Maybe put in the hard work and you will become relevant to some people too!
Sufficiency democracy in action
Where are your condemnations of human rights abuses now? Where are your condemnations of the use of police and military power to prevent political expression? Where have you condemned the current spate of killings and arbitrary arrests and unlawful detentions in the south by an out of control military?
I have expressed my views in relation to the UDD protest violence over at Bangkok Pundit’s site:
In a nutshell, from what I have seen, I think the police and military were surprisingly restrained when the UDD tried to provoke violence.
In relation to the arrest of the UDD leaders, I have said that I would prefer if they were released under strict bail conditions to keep the protests at a designated area (Sanam Luang)
As for other human rights abuses under the junta, well IMO they pale into insignificance when compared to Thaksin’s reign, particularly his extra-judicial ‘war on drugs’ killing spree, however I have expressed my concerns about the heavy handedness in dealing with the southern insurgency and possible vigilante killings from time to time (mainly on Bangkok Pundit’s blog site), where I stressed the importance of justice.
I certainly don’t want to see a repeat of the heavy handedness that occurred under Thaksin’s leadership, so I welcome the addition of your voice in this matter.
You should also bear in mind that the main reason I bother to comment here is to counter the Thaksin ‘love-in’ that Andrew, Republican and a few others have created here at New Mandala.
Of course I have concerns about where Thai politics is heading under the junta, but I also disagree with Andrew’s main theme that Thaksin had an electoral majority and therefore all his wrongdoings are irrelevant.
Sufficiency democracy in action
Where is your evidence, in Thai or English, that Thaksin was personally responsible for every extra-judicial killing during the War on Drugs? Where is the smoking gun?
Presumably you are not now denying that extra-judicial killings took place?
– Who instigated the ‘war on drugs’ ?
– Who was the authoritarian/autocratic leader at the time who had the power to modify the rules of engagement to stop the killing spree as soon as it was known what was happening?
– Who had the power to commence thorough investigations while the evidence was fresh?
– How many victims of the Holocaust did Hitler personally kill?
Tosakan (Fonzi), you seem to have changed your mind about the war on drugs over recent months – I recall you previously saying you were so concerned about it in the past that you wrote letters to the editors of papers about it – What new evidence do you have to make you change your mind?
Tough talk in the US
well all such terms like “conservative” are dependent on their context to have any meaning, but relative to say opinion in Europe or Australia your point is valid. But this guy is not one of true Bush-believers–he’s sponsoring a bill now to increase health care access for children through increased cigarette taxes. I know, I know, the fact America even needs such a bill reflects the barbarism of our society and our pitiful welfare state, but to be for it as a Republican is within the context of mainstream American politics practically and act of political courage.