“On the other hand, people have a tendency to go with the flow.”
Yep, agency vs. structure, freewill vs. determinism, I wonder how much of each there is in the electoral process. That’s why I’d love to see how the “pyramid of electoral organisation” described by Pasuk is built, from the ground up, with all the gritty details:
“There is a dense pyramid of electoral organisation extending down from MPs through local government heads to village canvassers. Many have benefited from electoral democracy.” (Source)
On the other hand, people have a tendency to go with the flow. A no vote might require more courage than merely doing as expected of them, or of simply staying at home
Vigorous debate, for and against, is a normal part of a democratic electoral process. Except in this case the regime seems to be working hard to close down the “no” case. If the constitution does pass you won’t find me arguing that people voted for it because they are stupid or lack the superior moral judgement that some people seem to claim.
But what could happen if a political party, in fact, decided, some time in the future, to campaign for a different economic system?
Not an issue, because sufficiency is compatible with all economic systems. After all, it is based on a personal system morality, not on a dogmatic set of economic activities.
As expected it is a patchwork of UN policies ideologically styled to suit any dictatorship both in the hear and now and later on down the track…somewhat reminiscent of 1991-92 when military wanted to enshrine itself in the economy…I’d say every economic policy implememted in Thailand will be given the gloss of sufficiency economy if this one is given legs…thanks for the translation New Mandala.
I am amused at all this concern that the new constitution might be passed.
Andrew, how can you be worried that the masses will be gullible when voting in the referendum, and yet they are so ‘astute’ when voting for Thaksin in elections?
A united 14 million ex-TRT party voting for NO (to the junta authored constitution) would have at least removed the mud and spit on those disgraced TRT faces.
I used to think that the only group that would succeed to bring about a whopping REJECTION of the junta-authored constitution would be the much vaunted united together-we-hang 14 million strong ex-TRT party. But as predicted, without Thaksin, or more accurately without Thaksin\’s money, the \’united\’ , or, the 14 million number strength are both turning into myths, as ephemereal as a Baht 500 bill.
And that is sad. Because NOW is the time for that disgraced ex-TRT party to show that the party is political, it has ideology, and it has backbone. A united 14 million ex-TRT party voting for NO would have at least the mud and spit on those disgraced TRT faces.
Does the ex-TRT party truly stand only as Thaksin\’s butler service? Apparently so . . . . apparently so.
I am still hoping the Democrat Party would have a turnaround and start a NO campaign to the junta-authoried Thai constitution.
“life is pain is a major theme throughout all major theologies”
Yep, like the passion of Christ on the cross during Catholic mass. I would be the last to apply generalisations like my posting above to all Thais or all Burmese, all Sri Lankans, etc…and if someone claimed that because I am 100% nordic I am condemned to life as a Ingmar Bergman film or depressing Ibsen play, yuck, no way, but…
There is some uniquely Buddhist combination of the themes of anissa, anatta, dukkha, illusion [maya], reincarnation, conditioned dependence, the momentum and influence of kamma. Take this interview with writer Seksan Prasertkul from Sunday’s newspaper, the 550 Jataka stories, Yukio Mishima’s Sea of Fertility Trilogy, or the last chapters of the Chinese classic Hung Lung Mung [Dream of Red Mansions….
“maybe that you are turning towards religion is more apt than your metaphor itself!”
Or everyone else nowadays for that matter, if Jatukham amulet craze is any indication. And also, in Burma with all its political problems, when you sort the layers of serious published literature you find at booksellers, the revolutionary ideas of socialism, communism, and revolution of the 1950s into the 1970s, were gradually replaced by more and more religion, probably with the aid of censorship and laws against ordinary folk writing religious works. I’m certainly sympathetic with Buddhist ideas, but not going to shave my head just yet, thank you. Too much to enjoy in life.
CNS push for charter ‘yes’ vote: Armed forces, police ‘told to endorse draft’
WASSANA NANUAM and SUBIN KHUENKAEW
The Council for National Security (CNS) is pulling out all stops to rally support for the draft constitution ahead of the referendum on Aug 19, according to a military source. CNS chief Gen Sonthi Boonyaratkalin has instructed around 400,000 armed forces members and police officers and their families, through their commanders who sit on the CNS, to endorse the draft charter, the source said.
The officers are expected to take on the role of ”charter ambassadors”, and more than120 military-controlled radio stations have been told to publicise the charter, according to the source.
In last week’s cabinet meeting, Gen Sonthi asked the government to urge state officials to cast their ballots in the Aug 19 referendum. ”That is a signal for them to accept the constitution,” said the source.
Gen Sonthi has also ordered the Internal Security Operations Command (Isoc), which has 700,000 staff nationwide under its command, to promote proper understanding of the constitution among rural people. Isoc spokesman Col Thanathip Sawangsaeng said provincial Isoc chiefs will use door-to-door tactics in their campaign to educate people so they will not be ”tricked” into rejecting the draft charter….
No doubt the ISOC lot are Village Scouts and other groups of a similar ilk. Feeling like the 1970s, and I thought the military only wanted to go back to the 1980s!
While the soldiers may be dumb, they are doing a pretty good job of ensuring the result they want.
I agree with Vichai, a pro-NO protest would make such a better martyr than anti-Prem, anti-Coup protest.
People already know Prem is behind the coup, they are hitting that point to death (Although having the PM and whole cabinet out to apologize the head honcho is quite amusing/disturbing).
But let’s face it, without the media backing, the most they can be is a martyr without a disciple. PAD succeed because most medias support them, while UDD get only referential news. I mean what do people know on that anti-Prem protest aside that they get arrest. No media report their detail point or agenda.
jonfernquest, life is pain is a major theme throughout all major theologies. maybe that you are turning towards religion is more apt than your metaphor itself!
The Election Commission has refused to rule that posters produced by Prateep Ungsongtham-Hata calling on people to vote ”no” in the Aug 19 charter referendum are illegal and punishable under the new law.
Ms Prateep, one of the emerging leaders of the United Front of Democracy against Dictatorship (UDD), on Saturday filed a complaint with Tha Rua police against a police officer and a military officer who seized about 4,000 posters during a raid on her property. She said the posters, with ”vote no” messages encouraging the public to oppose the draft charter, were not illegal.
Election Commission chief Apichart Sukhagganond said the EC would not rule that Ms Prateep had committed an offence because the new referendum law had yet to come into effect.
The Referendum Bill, which outlaws maliciously influencing the way people vote on Aug 19, sailed through the National Legislative Assembly and will take effect after receiving royal endorsement and being published in the Royal Gazette. Offenders are liable to jail and a five-year suspension of voting rights.
Mr Apichart said both new UDD leaders and supporters of the draft charter should exercise judgement before doing anything which could be deemed as violating the law once it becomes effective. ”All groups should campaign with caution,” he said. ”They can’t do just everything they want to. It is all right for the people to express their opinions, but it will be against the law to run a ‘vote down the referendum’ campaign.
”People should study the law carefully before doing anything.” His warning also covers state agencies, in particular the Interior Ministry, which will provide transport for people to go to the voting booths.
Ms Prateep accused Pol Capt Phumsit Traipat and Capt Chawalit Netnual of theft, damage to property and infringing on her rights.
This is an odd report, especially when the media is blanketed by positive – Yes – information about the referendum. This information is telling people about the supposed great and important bits of the draft constitution and it is all couched in terms that allude to the constitution being associated with the monarchy. Can’t wait to see how these tricks and the state’s machinery are used to impact the results of the election.
I called the local consulate and it seems they have no idea about voting for the referendum for overseas citizen as well. In past elections, you had to register before the election date is set so it seems like overseas Thais may not get a chance to vote either. Not that we make much of an impact, but I’m just annoyed.
I wonder how much turn out they will manage to get for this referendum. Perhaps the courts will overturn it again (or not).
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A free debate?
“On the other hand, people have a tendency to go with the flow.”
Yep, agency vs. structure, freewill vs. determinism, I wonder how much of each there is in the electoral process. That’s why I’d love to see how the “pyramid of electoral organisation” described by Pasuk is built, from the ground up, with all the gritty details:
“There is a dense pyramid of electoral organisation extending down from MPs through local government heads to village canvassers. Many have benefited from electoral democracy.” (Source)
A free debate?
On the other hand, people have a tendency to go with the flow. A no vote might require more courage than merely doing as expected of them, or of simply staying at home
Dictating the constitution
Yes, anon, gets it:
There’s nothing wrong with Reasonableness, Moderation & Immunity.
A free debate?
I’m not so sure the vigorous debate is really necessary because the people should still be able to suss out whether they are being ‘snowed’.
I actually think that the “no” case starts as a natural favorite due to peoples inherent distrust of government/authority:
http://bangkokpundit.blogspot.com/2007/07/search-for-wmd.html#242427245581310657
A free debate?
Touche ngana!
Would Andrew Walker even be more horrified that the pro-Thaksins may vote YES en massse while the anti-Thaksin give their rejection NO\’s . . .
A free debate?
Vigorous debate, for and against, is a normal part of a democratic electoral process. Except in this case the regime seems to be working hard to close down the “no” case. If the constitution does pass you won’t find me arguing that people voted for it because they are stupid or lack the superior moral judgement that some people seem to claim.
Dictating the constitution
But what could happen if a political party, in fact, decided, some time in the future, to campaign for a different economic system?
Not an issue, because sufficiency is compatible with all economic systems. After all, it is based on a personal system morality, not on a dogmatic set of economic activities.
Dictating the constitution
As expected it is a patchwork of UN policies ideologically styled to suit any dictatorship both in the hear and now and later on down the track…somewhat reminiscent of 1991-92 when military wanted to enshrine itself in the economy…I’d say every economic policy implememted in Thailand will be given the gloss of sufficiency economy if this one is given legs…thanks for the translation New Mandala.
A free debate?
I am amused at all this concern that the new constitution might be passed.
Andrew, how can you be worried that the masses will be gullible when voting in the referendum, and yet they are so ‘astute’ when voting for Thaksin in elections?
A free debate?
A united 14 million ex-TRT party voting for NO (to the junta authored constitution) would have at least removed the mud and spit on those disgraced TRT faces.
(CORRECTION)
A free debate?
I used to think that the only group that would succeed to bring about a whopping REJECTION of the junta-authored constitution would be the much vaunted united together-we-hang 14 million strong ex-TRT party. But as predicted, without Thaksin, or more accurately without Thaksin\’s money, the \’united\’ , or, the 14 million number strength are both turning into myths, as ephemereal as a Baht 500 bill.
And that is sad. Because NOW is the time for that disgraced ex-TRT party to show that the party is political, it has ideology, and it has backbone. A united 14 million ex-TRT party voting for NO would have at least the mud and spit on those disgraced TRT faces.
Does the ex-TRT party truly stand only as Thaksin\’s butler service? Apparently so . . . . apparently so.
I am still hoping the Democrat Party would have a turnaround and start a NO campaign to the junta-authoried Thai constitution.
Power, progress and impoverishment
[…] and environmental impact assessment? Some key issues of concern are raised in this message from Keith Barney. Greetings New Mandala […]
On metaphor in Thai politics
whoops, mistake: “were gradually replaced by more and more religious works, probably with the aid of censorship”
On metaphor in Thai politics
“life is pain is a major theme throughout all major theologies”
Yep, like the passion of Christ on the cross during Catholic mass. I would be the last to apply generalisations like my posting above to all Thais or all Burmese, all Sri Lankans, etc…and if someone claimed that because I am 100% nordic I am condemned to life as a Ingmar Bergman film or depressing Ibsen play, yuck, no way, but…
There is some uniquely Buddhist combination of the themes of anissa, anatta, dukkha, illusion [maya], reincarnation, conditioned dependence, the momentum and influence of kamma. Take this interview with writer Seksan Prasertkul from Sunday’s newspaper, the 550 Jataka stories, Yukio Mishima’s Sea of Fertility Trilogy, or the last chapters of the Chinese classic Hung Lung Mung [Dream of Red Mansions….
“maybe that you are turning towards religion is more apt than your metaphor itself!”
Or everyone else nowadays for that matter, if Jatukham amulet craze is any indication. And also, in Burma with all its political problems, when you sort the layers of serious published literature you find at booksellers, the revolutionary ideas of socialism, communism, and revolution of the 1950s into the 1970s, were gradually replaced by more and more religion, probably with the aid of censorship and laws against ordinary folk writing religious works. I’m certainly sympathetic with Buddhist ideas, but not going to shave my head just yet, thank you. Too much to enjoy in life.
A free debate?
Here’s how the free vote is being arranged:
Bangkok Post, 31 July 2007
CNS push for charter ‘yes’ vote: Armed forces, police ‘told to endorse draft’
WASSANA NANUAM and SUBIN KHUENKAEW
The Council for National Security (CNS) is pulling out all stops to rally support for the draft constitution ahead of the referendum on Aug 19, according to a military source. CNS chief Gen Sonthi Boonyaratkalin has instructed around 400,000 armed forces members and police officers and their families, through their commanders who sit on the CNS, to endorse the draft charter, the source said.
The officers are expected to take on the role of ”charter ambassadors”, and more than120 military-controlled radio stations have been told to publicise the charter, according to the source.
In last week’s cabinet meeting, Gen Sonthi asked the government to urge state officials to cast their ballots in the Aug 19 referendum. ”That is a signal for them to accept the constitution,” said the source.
Gen Sonthi has also ordered the Internal Security Operations Command (Isoc), which has 700,000 staff nationwide under its command, to promote proper understanding of the constitution among rural people. Isoc spokesman Col Thanathip Sawangsaeng said provincial Isoc chiefs will use door-to-door tactics in their campaign to educate people so they will not be ”tricked” into rejecting the draft charter….
No doubt the ISOC lot are Village Scouts and other groups of a similar ilk. Feeling like the 1970s, and I thought the military only wanted to go back to the 1980s!
While the soldiers may be dumb, they are doing a pretty good job of ensuring the result they want.
A free debate?
I agree with Vichai, a pro-NO protest would make such a better martyr than anti-Prem, anti-Coup protest.
People already know Prem is behind the coup, they are hitting that point to death (Although having the PM and whole cabinet out to apologize the head honcho is quite amusing/disturbing).
But let’s face it, without the media backing, the most they can be is a martyr without a disciple. PAD succeed because most medias support them, while UDD get only referential news. I mean what do people know on that anti-Prem protest aside that they get arrest. No media report their detail point or agenda.
On metaphor in Thai politics
jonfernquest, life is pain is a major theme throughout all major theologies. maybe that you are turning towards religion is more apt than your metaphor itself!
On metaphor in Thai politics
Napoleon : Bhumibol
Snowball : Surayud
Squealer: Devakula
Old Major: Sonthi
Mr Jones: Thaksin
hahaha, I suppose it is quite ordinary to compare a political situation to Animal Farm, but they are the analogies I would go with…
A free debate?
From Bkk Post, 30 Aug 2007
EC says ‘vote no’ posters not yet illegal
The Election Commission has refused to rule that posters produced by Prateep Ungsongtham-Hata calling on people to vote ”no” in the Aug 19 charter referendum are illegal and punishable under the new law.
Ms Prateep, one of the emerging leaders of the United Front of Democracy against Dictatorship (UDD), on Saturday filed a complaint with Tha Rua police against a police officer and a military officer who seized about 4,000 posters during a raid on her property. She said the posters, with ”vote no” messages encouraging the public to oppose the draft charter, were not illegal.
Election Commission chief Apichart Sukhagganond said the EC would not rule that Ms Prateep had committed an offence because the new referendum law had yet to come into effect.
The Referendum Bill, which outlaws maliciously influencing the way people vote on Aug 19, sailed through the National Legislative Assembly and will take effect after receiving royal endorsement and being published in the Royal Gazette. Offenders are liable to jail and a five-year suspension of voting rights.
Mr Apichart said both new UDD leaders and supporters of the draft charter should exercise judgement before doing anything which could be deemed as violating the law once it becomes effective. ”All groups should campaign with caution,” he said. ”They can’t do just everything they want to. It is all right for the people to express their opinions, but it will be against the law to run a ‘vote down the referendum’ campaign.
”People should study the law carefully before doing anything.” His warning also covers state agencies, in particular the Interior Ministry, which will provide transport for people to go to the voting booths.
Ms Prateep accused Pol Capt Phumsit Traipat and Capt Chawalit Netnual of theft, damage to property and infringing on her rights.
This is an odd report, especially when the media is blanketed by positive – Yes – information about the referendum. This information is telling people about the supposed great and important bits of the draft constitution and it is all couched in terms that allude to the constitution being associated with the monarchy. Can’t wait to see how these tricks and the state’s machinery are used to impact the results of the election.
Disenfranchising Thailand’s mobile workforce
I called the local consulate and it seems they have no idea about voting for the referendum for overseas citizen as well. In past elections, you had to register before the election date is set so it seems like overseas Thais may not get a chance to vote either. Not that we make much of an impact, but I’m just annoyed.
I wonder how much turn out they will manage to get for this referendum. Perhaps the courts will overturn it again (or not).