You pencil-necked pin-headed development geeks think that happiness can only be measured with numbers.
Realize that the self-sufficiency economy isn’t about numbers and wealth – it’s about goodness and dignity. Without this fundamental understanding, Thailand will still produce another generation of Thaksins.
Sorry Naphat I forgot to respond but belatedly. I guess ‘belatedly’ too is perhaps how justice will be served to Thaksin Shinawatra for his criminal abuses, specifically on the extra-judicial murders he directed against thousands of suspected villagers during his anti-yaa baa campaign of Y03.
Let us take Pinochet as a benchmark. He lost his power in 1990 but he was finally indicted in Y2006, 16 years later. For Saddam too, justice took much longer to be served.
But because murder is such a heinous crime there is no statute of limitations thereof.
So do be optimistic and never give up Naphat. Justice too will be served to Thaksin Shinawatra even if belatedly.
I will put my money on there being no correlation between the 2 variables;not with an r squared of 0.18,indicating 82% of the variance is NOT explained by the regression line .
[A minor point-I thought “R” squared was reserved for non-linear regression.]
If the 95% confidence intervals had been drawn ,or better still ,the prediction intervals,,the straight line could have been drawn virtually anywhere except horizontally-slight exaggeration ,I know.
Even after reading the King’s speech referred to by nganadeeleg ,I’m still unsure what “sufficiency economy” means. Does it,in part,mean ways and means of reducing poverty?
This is the only speech of the King I have read,and I have been surprised ,enlightened and also dismayed,perhaps saddened would be a better word.And I think it is wise not to elaborate.
Still at it Andrew Walker? Trying with all your nonsense to equate HMK’s Sufficiency Economy to ‘poverty’?
Either you are being stupid or you are merely being malicious. Or your master has given you instructed to pursue this nonsense or you won’t get paid.
I already told you the first time I visited this forum when you made that stupid conclusion Andrew that it is too ridiculous to qualify as a blatant lie. I have not changed my mind a bit.
Fall I thought it was very clear even for the near blind.
But for your sake I will simplify. If you Fall will accept a murderer for your Prime Minister, you will accept anybody no matter how rotten, how crooked or how criminal. Is there a crime more heinous than murder Fall?
Now to reply to your question. Decent Thai people will NOT accept a murderer to be their leader, even id such leader was elected or re-elected by majority vote of the rural people. And that IS the problem.
Popular will can be wrong . . but if they err grossly as to continue to vote in a criminal, a murderer who violated the rule of law and the basic human rights of my fellow Thais, popular will mean shit.
If you taking gross debt, without reference to underlying assets, and income levels, then your analysis is meaningless in terms of the sufficiency economy.
A higher gross debt could still fit within the sufficiency model if that household also had high asset and income levels.
If the Household Debt axis in the above graph was actually Household Debt as a percentage of Assets or Income, then the graph would be more meaningful in analysing the sufficiency theory.
Andrew, it sounds like you have a problem with the sufficiency theory.
Here is a translation of the King’s 1998 speech which includes clarification of what he is talking about: http://www.kanchanapisek.or.th/speeches/1998/1204.en.html
In the light of that clarification, what ecactly are your concerns with the theory?
Thailand is probably a good example for other countries of what it is feasible to achieve, however…
When I saw Chiang Rai rank so low in so many categories I couldn’t help but think of all those conversations in Burmese I had with the literal ***army of Burmese workers*** that built Thailand’s newest university in Chiang Rai. Wages are near zero for Thais in Mae Sai unless they have a little store selling things to tourists.
There is a **fundamental disconnect between appearance and reality**. I remember the way were given a list of things to say to the accreditation board that visited the university.
***I have the utmost respect for His Majesty the King*** but not those who use the hallowed institutions of royalty to build up their own absolute power which is probably why the truth so often remains concealed under the veneer of slick brochures.
The university I worked at had an annual “Tham Hua” ceremony where all the staff grudingly had bowed and reaffirmed their loyalty to the **president of the university** who is not royalty. This is too much. This is right out of the Burmese chronicles that I translate and publish at the University of London: http://web.soas.ac.uk/burma/bulletin.htm
Of course, by even pointing this out I could get sued for defamation (or deported because I am a foreigner) fairly obvious reasons why the truth never gets out.
Vichai – Huh? What does my (presume) condone of Thaksin’s-crime-against-humanity got to do with “Do middle-class willing to accept rural people chosen representative?”.
Because I am not crying for blood and gore, so I must be condoning any Thaksin misdeeds? Unless your next response is reasonable or relate to the topic, please do not expect my reply.
nganadeeleg –
“…‘puke threshold’ is much lower for non elected leaders/governments”
Actually, this sound normal, in my opinion.
“If the ‘puke threshold’ was lower for elected governments, then perhaps we would get better quality leaders.” – Agreed.
Not quite sure why it is “bewildering” that the report should give a strong endorsement of self-sufficiency theory:
(i) ‘Copyright 2007′: well that just about says it all. But for those “commentators” who may still be in doubt:
(ii) As it is the King’s “theory” (I hesitate to give it that honour)any criticism of it would by definition count as an act of lese majeste, which carries a maximum penalty of 15 years in prison. Strange they didn’t mention that in the report. If one had the choice of criticising the King’s theory, thereby risking one’s professional position, at best, and at worst a jail term, or collecting what must have been a very nice UN pay cheque, it is not difficult to guess what most of the contributors’ choice would be. Looks nice on the CV too.
(iii) The report is endorsed by PM Surayudh, the former privy councillor and King’s nominee for the prime ministership after the royalist-military coup d’etat. He’s hardly going to endorse a report critical of his master.
(iv) As the Acknowledgements points out, the report was “guided by” an Advisory Panel, chaired by H.E. Kasem Watanachai, Privy Councilor, and co-chaired by H.E. Dr. Chirayu Israngkun Na Ayuthaya, Director General of the
Bureau of the Crown Property, which is made up of a who’s who of “network monarchy” – Crown Property Bureau people, Royal Project people, etc. Contributors also include Sumet Tantivejakul, Secretary-General, of the monarchy’s Chaipattana Foundation and one of the leading anti-Thaksin campaigners.
I mean, this is the absurdity that is Thailand in today’s modern dark ages; the DG of one of the largest business conglomerates in the country singing the praises of self-sufficiency. The King waxes lyrical about the virtues of his theory while members of his own extended family travel around the world virtually every week, and then force their Thai subjects to watch their holiday movies on the 8pm TV news. This is the stuff of Marie Antoinette. And the reason no-one kicks up a fuss (openly)? lese majeste, and since September 19, the little matter of living under a royalist-military dictatorship.
But what is worse than that is how the UNDP can prostitute itself by lending its brand to the Thai King, who has just endorsed the overthrow of a government elected overwhelmingly by his own people, and who is now backing an increasingly ruthless military dictatorship. Funny the report didn’t mention that either. How can we explain this? Like so many idiot farang expats who get used by the Thai phu yais (and get paid very well for it!) to give their endorsement (as “Western experts”) to projects which in their own countries would be crucified in the media? (No doubt they are all very much in love with “Thai culture”, and the love is surely reciprocal). Or worse than that, they actually believe that it is OK for dictatorships to treat their people in this way?
As I’ve said before, if self-sufficiency is a theory that you are going to force upon the Thai people then let there be an open debate about it, get rid of lese majeste, and apply the principles of reasoned, vigorous debate. Let the world see just who is really behind the industry of producing the discourse of self-sufficiency, and whose interests this discourse is really protecting.
[…] In my post of earlier today I discussed the emphasis placed in Thailand’s 2007 Human Development Report on “sufficiency economy.” As I work through the report I will provide a series of short posts (as time permits) on some of its key issues. In this post I focus on Chapter 1 in which the key human development data are presented. […]
Vichai: The funny thing is that it seems that the CNS seems to be condoning the ‘Thaksin’s extrajudicial crime’ too. I haven’t heard much word on some effort on by the current government to bring charges against Thaksin (last I heard was some comments by Kraisak that you mention, but I haven’t been following the news regularly). Prosecution for the human rights violations would involve digging through the chain of command in the police — I’m pessimistic that the government would be able to stomach rocking the boat in that way.
‘the circumstances of being temporarily disconnected from homeland and momentarily linked with new places have formed a “river border identity” for Lao traders that is quite different to that of more settled Lao’
I especially agree with this quote: borders are indeed likely to change the way people living there may think.
I like the part about if you make a general a king everything will go hunky dory.
” In much the same way, were a Myanmar general to ascend to a restored throne, he would logically seek to limit the army’s power by creating his own bureaucratic counter balance. Not, grant you, the most efficient path to civilian rule, but one which would nonetheless achieve that same goal using arcane methods. ”
Worked well in Germany. Works well in North Korea too. Maybe he’s thinking of Napoleon though. Err…
Pundit said: “Then again a strict adherence to the rule of law does not always bring about results that people see as being just or moral. Just for you Kuhn Vichai, what if the CNS asked the NLA to implement a new law that said, “Any person who has been a registered member of TRT and the Democratic Party must be executed immediately”. The rule of law won’t help you overturn such a law.”
I am left guessing about what you wish to impart about rule of law with yoiur above posting. I can only guess you want to justify Thaksin’s expedient disregard of rule law to accomplish results with his extrajudicial killings in Y03 during his senseless anti-yaa baa war.
What is the point of a hypothetical question Pundit because then you will get an entirely useless hyothetical answer in return?
But Thaksin breaking the rule of law with his extrajudicial slaughter of thousands of ‘suspcts’ was real Pundit and nothing hypothetical about that. Further it was totally senseless. We have to remember that at that time Thaksin’s TRt party had absolute control of the parliament and therefore Thaksin, as PM, would have passed any legislation that he wished at that time to mete the most punitive punishment in the world to drug dealing as total deterrent to yaa baa dealing or other drugs. That was what Thaksin should have done to make a lasting impression against drug abuse. But Thaksin instead chose expediency, to be popular, to show he can be God perhaps and Thaksin resorted to mass murder of innocents and the defenseless which broke Thailand’s rule of law. I will also have to agree with Kraisak Choonhavan that Thaksin’s extrajudicial rampage resulting in slaughter of thousands was indeed a crime against humanity.
If Pundit, Patiwat and Fall will condone Thaksin’s extrajudicial crime, these three will condone any Thaksin misdeeds.
Self Sufficiency Wardrobe for 2007: In case Thais were planning to try out this year’s fashions they should think again. Ratchakan has been campaigning heavily through the media and other organs for Thai subjects – sorry, citizens – to wear their yellow shirts EVERY day this year.
Some time ago, China strictly cracked down on gambling within it’s borders. This was done for two reasons. 1) To channel gamblers to Macau, where gambling is legal. Macau needs to be successful in the long run, or else the Chinese government will be accused of post-transfer economic mismanagement. 2) To reduce official corruption and money laundering. Casinos have traditionally been a preferred place for officials to launder ill-earned income.
Some North Korean border casinos thought they could cash in and expand their operations to attract Chinese gamblers. China didn’t look favorably to this, and threatened to shut down electricity transmission to the North Koreans. The North Korean border casinos soon shut down.
I suspect the border casinos at Boten will soon meet the same fate. What Big Brother wants, Big Brother gets.
And yet another addition on Noranit’s educational history, this time including a reference to Columbia University: 1965 Diploma in Sovietology, Freiburg University, Switzerland. 1967-1970 M.A. in Diplomacy and World Affairs Occidental College, U.S.A. 1972-1975 M.A. in Comparative Politics,Columbia University
A piece of additional information re “anon.” : Noranit Setabutr. 1971. “The Role of the Military in Thailand, 1958-1970.” Bangkok: Praeppittaya. 133 pp. According to the author’s forword, this book was originally presented as a “thesis” at Occidental College, Los Angeles, 1970.
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Sufficiency economy = poverty?
You pencil-necked pin-headed development geeks think that happiness can only be measured with numbers.
Realize that the self-sufficiency economy isn’t about numbers and wealth – it’s about goodness and dignity. Without this fundamental understanding, Thailand will still produce another generation of Thaksins.
“The educated middle class vs democracy”
Sorry Naphat I forgot to respond but belatedly. I guess ‘belatedly’ too is perhaps how justice will be served to Thaksin Shinawatra for his criminal abuses, specifically on the extra-judicial murders he directed against thousands of suspected villagers during his anti-yaa baa campaign of Y03.
Let us take Pinochet as a benchmark. He lost his power in 1990 but he was finally indicted in Y2006, 16 years later. For Saddam too, justice took much longer to be served.
But because murder is such a heinous crime there is no statute of limitations thereof.
So do be optimistic and never give up Naphat. Justice too will be served to Thaksin Shinawatra even if belatedly.
Sufficiency economy = poverty?
I will put my money on there being no correlation between the 2 variables;not with an r squared of 0.18,indicating 82% of the variance is NOT explained by the regression line .
[A minor point-I thought “R” squared was reserved for non-linear regression.]
If the 95% confidence intervals had been drawn ,or better still ,the prediction intervals,,the straight line could have been drawn virtually anywhere except horizontally-slight exaggeration ,I know.
Even after reading the King’s speech referred to by nganadeeleg ,I’m still unsure what “sufficiency economy” means. Does it,in part,mean ways and means of reducing poverty?
This is the only speech of the King I have read,and I have been surprised ,enlightened and also dismayed,perhaps saddened would be a better word.And I think it is wise not to elaborate.
Sufficiency economy = poverty?
Still at it Andrew Walker? Trying with all your nonsense to equate HMK’s Sufficiency Economy to ‘poverty’?
Either you are being stupid or you are merely being malicious. Or your master has given you instructed to pursue this nonsense or you won’t get paid.
I already told you the first time I visited this forum when you made that stupid conclusion Andrew that it is too ridiculous to qualify as a blatant lie. I have not changed my mind a bit.
“The educated middle class vs democracy”
Fall I thought it was very clear even for the near blind.
But for your sake I will simplify. If you Fall will accept a murderer for your Prime Minister, you will accept anybody no matter how rotten, how crooked or how criminal. Is there a crime more heinous than murder Fall?
Now to reply to your question. Decent Thai people will NOT accept a murderer to be their leader, even id such leader was elected or re-elected by majority vote of the rural people. And that IS the problem.
Popular will can be wrong . . but if they err grossly as to continue to vote in a criminal, a murderer who violated the rule of law and the basic human rights of my fellow Thais, popular will mean shit.
Sufficiency economy = poverty?
Should say ‘exactly’ not ‘ecactly’ in last sentence of my post above.
Also missing the word ‘are’ after ‘you’ in the second sentence.
No edit capability so I must remember to check more carefully before I click ‘submit’
Sufficiency economy = poverty?
Lies, damn lies, and statistics!
If you taking gross debt, without reference to underlying assets, and income levels, then your analysis is meaningless in terms of the sufficiency economy.
A higher gross debt could still fit within the sufficiency model if that household also had high asset and income levels.
If the Household Debt axis in the above graph was actually Household Debt as a percentage of Assets or Income, then the graph would be more meaningful in analysing the sufficiency theory.
Andrew, it sounds like you have a problem with the sufficiency theory.
Here is a translation of the King’s 1998 speech which includes clarification of what he is talking about:
http://www.kanchanapisek.or.th/speeches/1998/1204.en.html
In the light of that clarification, what ecactly are your concerns with the theory?
Sufficiency economy and human development
Thailand is probably a good example for other countries of what it is feasible to achieve, however…
When I saw Chiang Rai rank so low in so many categories I couldn’t help but think of all those conversations in Burmese I had with the literal ***army of Burmese workers*** that built Thailand’s newest university in Chiang Rai. Wages are near zero for Thais in Mae Sai unless they have a little store selling things to tourists.
There is a **fundamental disconnect between appearance and reality**. I remember the way were given a list of things to say to the accreditation board that visited the university.
***I have the utmost respect for His Majesty the King*** but not those who use the hallowed institutions of royalty to build up their own absolute power which is probably why the truth so often remains concealed under the veneer of slick brochures.
The university I worked at had an annual “Tham Hua” ceremony where all the staff grudingly had bowed and reaffirmed their loyalty to the **president of the university** who is not royalty. This is too much. This is right out of the Burmese chronicles that I translate and publish at the University of London:
http://web.soas.ac.uk/burma/bulletin.htm
Of course, by even pointing this out I could get sued for defamation (or deported because I am a foreigner) fairly obvious reasons why the truth never gets out.
“The educated middle class vs democracy”
Vichai – Huh? What does my (presume) condone of Thaksin’s-crime-against-humanity got to do with “Do middle-class willing to accept rural people chosen representative?”.
Because I am not crying for blood and gore, so I must be condoning any Thaksin misdeeds? Unless your next response is reasonable or relate to the topic, please do not expect my reply.
nganadeeleg –
“…‘puke threshold’ is much lower for non elected leaders/governments”
Actually, this sound normal, in my opinion.
“If the ‘puke threshold’ was lower for elected governments, then perhaps we would get better quality leaders.” – Agreed.
Sufficiency economy and human development
Not quite sure why it is “bewildering” that the report should give a strong endorsement of self-sufficiency theory:
(i) ‘Copyright 2007′: well that just about says it all. But for those “commentators” who may still be in doubt:
(ii) As it is the King’s “theory” (I hesitate to give it that honour)any criticism of it would by definition count as an act of lese majeste, which carries a maximum penalty of 15 years in prison. Strange they didn’t mention that in the report. If one had the choice of criticising the King’s theory, thereby risking one’s professional position, at best, and at worst a jail term, or collecting what must have been a very nice UN pay cheque, it is not difficult to guess what most of the contributors’ choice would be. Looks nice on the CV too.
(iii) The report is endorsed by PM Surayudh, the former privy councillor and King’s nominee for the prime ministership after the royalist-military coup d’etat. He’s hardly going to endorse a report critical of his master.
(iv) As the Acknowledgements points out, the report was “guided by” an Advisory Panel, chaired by H.E. Kasem Watanachai, Privy Councilor, and co-chaired by H.E. Dr. Chirayu Israngkun Na Ayuthaya, Director General of the
Bureau of the Crown Property, which is made up of a who’s who of “network monarchy” – Crown Property Bureau people, Royal Project people, etc. Contributors also include Sumet Tantivejakul, Secretary-General, of the monarchy’s Chaipattana Foundation and one of the leading anti-Thaksin campaigners.
I mean, this is the absurdity that is Thailand in today’s modern dark ages; the DG of one of the largest business conglomerates in the country singing the praises of self-sufficiency. The King waxes lyrical about the virtues of his theory while members of his own extended family travel around the world virtually every week, and then force their Thai subjects to watch their holiday movies on the 8pm TV news. This is the stuff of Marie Antoinette. And the reason no-one kicks up a fuss (openly)? lese majeste, and since September 19, the little matter of living under a royalist-military dictatorship.
But what is worse than that is how the UNDP can prostitute itself by lending its brand to the Thai King, who has just endorsed the overthrow of a government elected overwhelmingly by his own people, and who is now backing an increasingly ruthless military dictatorship. Funny the report didn’t mention that either. How can we explain this? Like so many idiot farang expats who get used by the Thai phu yais (and get paid very well for it!) to give their endorsement (as “Western experts”) to projects which in their own countries would be crucified in the media? (No doubt they are all very much in love with “Thai culture”, and the love is surely reciprocal). Or worse than that, they actually believe that it is OK for dictatorships to treat their people in this way?
As I’ve said before, if self-sufficiency is a theory that you are going to force upon the Thai people then let there be an open debate about it, get rid of lese majeste, and apply the principles of reasoned, vigorous debate. Let the world see just who is really behind the industry of producing the discourse of self-sufficiency, and whose interests this discourse is really protecting.
Sufficiency economy and human development
[…] In my post of earlier today I discussed the emphasis placed in Thailand’s 2007 Human Development Report on “sufficiency economy.” As I work through the report I will provide a series of short posts (as time permits) on some of its key issues. In this post I focus on Chapter 1 in which the key human development data are presented. […]
“The educated middle class vs democracy”
Vichai: The funny thing is that it seems that the CNS seems to be condoning the ‘Thaksin’s extrajudicial crime’ too. I haven’t heard much word on some effort on by the current government to bring charges against Thaksin (last I heard was some comments by Kraisak that you mention, but I haven’t been following the news regularly). Prosecution for the human rights violations would involve digging through the chain of command in the police — I’m pessimistic that the government would be able to stomach rocking the boat in that way.
The Golden Boat update 6: mobile lifestyles
‘the circumstances of being temporarily disconnected from homeland and momentarily linked with new places have formed a “river border identity” for Lao traders that is quite different to that of more settled Lao’
I especially agree with this quote: borders are indeed likely to change the way people living there may think.
Another new Burma blog: fifty viss
Aung Htin Kyaw might be inspired 😉 by this funny piece of revisionism, Chakri-style:
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Southeast_Asia/IA05Ae01.html
I like the part about if you make a general a king everything will go hunky dory.
” In much the same way, were a Myanmar general to ascend to a restored throne, he would logically seek to limit the army’s power by creating his own bureaucratic counter balance. Not, grant you, the most efficient path to civilian rule, but one which would nonetheless achieve that same goal using arcane methods. ”
Worked well in Germany. Works well in North Korea too. Maybe he’s thinking of Napoleon though. Err…
“The educated middle class vs democracy”
Pundit said: “Then again a strict adherence to the rule of law does not always bring about results that people see as being just or moral. Just for you Kuhn Vichai, what if the CNS asked the NLA to implement a new law that said, “Any person who has been a registered member of TRT and the Democratic Party must be executed immediately”. The rule of law won’t help you overturn such a law.”
I am left guessing about what you wish to impart about rule of law with yoiur above posting. I can only guess you want to justify Thaksin’s expedient disregard of rule law to accomplish results with his extrajudicial killings in Y03 during his senseless anti-yaa baa war.
What is the point of a hypothetical question Pundit because then you will get an entirely useless hyothetical answer in return?
But Thaksin breaking the rule of law with his extrajudicial slaughter of thousands of ‘suspcts’ was real Pundit and nothing hypothetical about that. Further it was totally senseless. We have to remember that at that time Thaksin’s TRt party had absolute control of the parliament and therefore Thaksin, as PM, would have passed any legislation that he wished at that time to mete the most punitive punishment in the world to drug dealing as total deterrent to yaa baa dealing or other drugs. That was what Thaksin should have done to make a lasting impression against drug abuse. But Thaksin instead chose expediency, to be popular, to show he can be God perhaps and Thaksin resorted to mass murder of innocents and the defenseless which broke Thailand’s rule of law. I will also have to agree with Kraisak Choonhavan that Thaksin’s extrajudicial rampage resulting in slaughter of thousands was indeed a crime against humanity.
If Pundit, Patiwat and Fall will condone Thaksin’s extrajudicial crime, these three will condone any Thaksin misdeeds.
“The educated middle class vs democracy”
Frustrated said: “as long as their major interests are served most people tend to ignore small little things that they don’t like.”
You have highlighted the major problem (Seeking to have your interests served).
How about seeking what is just/right/fair rather than self interest?
“The educated middle class vs democracy”
Self Sufficiency Wardrobe for 2007: In case Thais were planning to try out this year’s fashions they should think again. Ratchakan has been campaigning heavily through the media and other organs for Thai subjects – sorry, citizens – to wear their yellow shirts EVERY day this year.
In Xanadu did Kubla Khan …
Some time ago, China strictly cracked down on gambling within it’s borders. This was done for two reasons. 1) To channel gamblers to Macau, where gambling is legal. Macau needs to be successful in the long run, or else the Chinese government will be accused of post-transfer economic mismanagement. 2) To reduce official corruption and money laundering. Casinos have traditionally been a preferred place for officials to launder ill-earned income.
Some North Korean border casinos thought they could cash in and expand their operations to attract Chinese gamblers. China didn’t look favorably to this, and threatened to shut down electricity transmission to the North Koreans. The North Korean border casinos soon shut down.
I suspect the border casinos at Boten will soon meet the same fate. What Big Brother wants, Big Brother gets.
Australia’s link to the CDA
And yet another addition on Noranit’s educational history, this time including a reference to Columbia University: 1965 Diploma in Sovietology, Freiburg University, Switzerland. 1967-1970 M.A. in Diplomacy and World Affairs Occidental College, U.S.A. 1972-1975 M.A. in Comparative Politics,Columbia University
Australia’s link to the CDA
A piece of additional information re “anon.” : Noranit Setabutr. 1971. “The Role of the Military in Thailand, 1958-1970.” Bangkok: Praeppittaya. 133 pp. According to the author’s forword, this book was originally presented as a “thesis” at Occidental College, Los Angeles, 1970.