That’s going to be an exciting event for people in London (and probably some from Oxford, Nick?) to hear Ajarn Thongchai reflecting on the September 19 coup. He is probably the most outspoken Thai academic who is against the idea of employing non-democratic means to resolve the political conflict.
It is a bit unfortunate that the event falls on Tuesday which may prevent some students, especially those outside London, to attend. Hopefully, they will record the lecture or broadcast it live on the internet for those who can’t.
There were, and I assume still are, Karen villagers that could distinguish between different mortar rounds by the sound they made, and different calibers of small arms fire, but had never seen an escalator. Bertil Lintner recount in his book “Land of Jade’ how an small boy in the Kokang region ran away from him crying when he pointed a camera at the boy; the child thought it was a gun. Lintner commented that it was sobering to reflect that there were areas of the world at the close of the 20th century where children didn’t know what a camera was, but already knew what a gun was capable of. I suspect the same holds true in the 21st Century. I’m afraid that in lots of remote upper mainland SE Asia people, like the villagers in Laos, are quite connected to the global scene and political economy. It just depends on what aspect of the global scene you are talking about. By the same token, the average Australian or US citizen is probably quite dislocated from aspects of the global scene and political economy, especially the unpleasant bits.
Somewhat off topic, but Nicholas have you heard about the elephant tusks of the Ginsi Duwa?
Great to see Prof.Thongchai talk about Coup at SOAS, esp. after Sonthi (Limthongkul) has been there around a month ago. I beleive Prof.Thongchai will do a much better job at explaining the event from the academic perspective.
His recent articles about the Coup on various Thai website was very insightful. He did criticise many Thai academics for the way that they are being “pragmatist” about the Coup (Many Thai academics saw Coup as acceptable solution or as the past that cannot be changed, so they join the arrays of reform that’s taking place in the present. One of the remarkable one that did this is Thammasat University Rector, Surapon Nitigraipoj).
Well, I agree with him to some extent about many Thai academics being pragmatist. But on the other side, when he criticise pragmatism serverely, he himself can be criticise back for being “idealist”.
for Thongchai recent article on Pragmatism of Thai academicians
Needless to say, the prestige and credibility of Western Democracy in various democratizing corners of the world has taken a big hit since the Iraq War. Before, people may not have a full understanding of Democracy but at least they have a tangible level of faith in the process. After Iraq, this faith is severely shaken and to a large extent replaced by cynicism.
In the case of Thailand, many people are taken aback by the international opposition as they view this coup as ‘righteous’. So, it’s not surprisingly that people take offense when they are lectured by Western leaders, esp. since the moral credibility of these are seriously undermined by the carnage in Iraq.
That’s just my observation. A lot of times, there’s arguments about regime change in Thailand, the counterexample of the forced regime change in Iraq is always given.
The role of forests in averting floods must be getting a lot of consideration in Thailand at the moment. What’s the consensus (if there is any) on that?
I was more thinking in terms of Nick’s later comment and the ways in which upland groups are tied into the global political economy, even if they are unaware of how or why (though I suspect american exile Hmong probably have a better idea of how global P.E. works than I do). Of course, the knowledge/theory of upland groups as to why american funded agencies keep coming and burning their crops would probably provide its own unique insights.
A nice recentering of the perspective James but your particular version (even with its caveat) lends itself to framing “the rural folk of the hills” as unsophisticated. I would be inclined to take that extra step and say that the earth not being flat is only one other way of understanding the cosmos that we all occupy and that within our system it is hard (if not impossible) to refute, but not unlike the Azande Oracle and the system within which it sits or is a part of. In terms of the flat earth issue however, we are inclined to render it particularly meaningful and do so by misrecognising its historical emergence (contingence) and the circumstances around which it occurred through as a revolution of science rather than the cultural and political one (structural change in the sense of the structure of the conjuncture that Sahlins developed) it really was and as the quote from the article illustrates not subscribing to our enlightened perspective is at least worthy of exclamation in disbelief if not a total tsk tsk-ing over ignorance…though the latter is never far away
I would say that the “surprising” fact that these children (as many of the people in my experience who dwell in the highlands of northern Thailand, Burma, Laos and Southern China do) do not “know” the world is not flat as “we do”, is better understood perhaps in terms of the rich diversity of human posibility and rather, than how far away understanding of the global is, it might be a better reflection of the relevance (or lack thereof) of it, to other people’s life worlds. I for one am of the opinion that the global, in the sense that it is being used here and in most academic writings, is but a cultural elaboration of the globe earth theory and as such an analytic construct that has taken on a life of its own…I say this in the sense of the discussion of rationality superstition and voodoo that Hobby and I have been having on another thread here…
He was, and probably continues to be, Thailand’s most influential public intellectual. See here. His ideas have massive credibility among the Thai people.
Of course, here’s what I think about Anand and the junta: “They’re not democratic yet… they have an entirely different mentality – they belong to the Asian group.”
“They believe that whenever there is a coup things would be alright again. There would be no bloodshed or discontent. It would be followed by this or that … and not many realize that the 1991 coup resulted in Bloody May, or the 1985 coup resulted in dozens dead and injured, or the 1977 coup was an excuse for the 6 October Massacre.
“It’s politically correct – you know the attitude – to say that ‘coup d’etat is good’. Practically, some diplomats understood, but nobody listened to them.”
“Asian leaders – be they Burmese, Thai, Singaporean, or Chinese are uninformed people. They’re ignorant, they’re completely ignorant”.
I gather from the Bangkok Post that the generals have now begun appointing themselves to potentially lucrative SOE board positions. Very back to the eighties. But it’s ok, because soldiers aren’t interested in business, they think only of the nation…
Erik D: I’m curious to know if you think Anand’s comments are anything more than a simple restatement of supposedly Asian Values
From what I have read on the topic, Thailand has not necessarily followed the Singapore “Asian values” approach. However, there is a “Thai values” approach (you could say this is related to the whole “Thainess” debate) which many are fond of as illustrated by National Legislative Assembly president Meechai Ruchupan in yesterday’s Bangkok Post:
“Mr Meechai said he would like to see a “Thai kind of constitution” free of imported ideas that could prove counterproductive for the country.”
I am certainly not opposed to values/culture affecting discussion of rights/constitutional framework for the protection of rights, but it is very easy to label rights as being counterproductive to the country as Meechai does above. I must say that Aung San Suu Kyi gives one of the better critiques on the dangers of such argument. In this journal article (“II. Freedom, Development, and Human Worth” Journal of Democracy – Volume 6, Number 2, April 1995, pp. 11-19), she wrote:
“It is claimed, usually without adequate evidence, that democratic values and human rights run counter to the national culture, and therefore to be beneficial they need to be modified–perhaps to the extent that they are barely recognizable.
The “national culture” can become a bizarre graft of carefully selected historical incidents and distorted social values intended to justify the policies and actions of those in power.”
The excerpts are from pages 13-14.
Nick: Thanks for the plug.
Are Anand’s comments just not newsworthy?
Whenever Anand spoke previously and was critical of Thaksin, his comments were deemed newsworthy then. I didn’t expect all the papers to highlight his comments and give them prominent coverage, but they were certainly worthy of at least a small news article.
Would it be more accurate to say that understanding (or at least, a western understanding) of the global issues is far away, rather than the issues themselves? For example, many upland groups in Laos are directly affected by the policy of banning opium cultivation – this has been made a “global issue” chiefly by the United States, for reasons which are not entirely clear to me, nevermind to upland Hmong – but the effects of that global issue are definitely felt.
[…] As the site continues to grow, and more resources are added, it should become an outstanding resource for those, in Australia and around the world, who are keen to learn more about the Burmese story. An increasing number of Burma-related websites, including New Mandala, are starting to use Burma Gateway’s impressive suite of interactive tools. As capacities for online collaboration and sharing mature, a site like Burma Gateway is well positioned to serve as a linchpin in national and international networks. […]
Tim, or whoever you are, I have let that last comment through just to show readers what nonsense you are capable of. Now that readers are clear on that, there will be no need for me to let through similar rants. Go back to your books.
Aiontay, I do apologise for putting you in a position where you were unable to contribute anything intelligent to this thread, effectivelly leaving you to reduce discussion about Burma to being about you, perhaps a default position of yours when someone has different views to your own? It certainly highlights the point I mde about middle-class appropriation of other’s experince. The relevance of your family and self and their mixed class composition and ethnicity to the discussion is lost on me and particulalry uninteresting to be honest. This would be the case even if you were from Kachin or the Shan States, were Red Wa or a Tibeto-Burman speaking indigene of the hills of northern Burma and made the same ludicrous claims. Basically ethnicity and in particular your is not what we are talking about.
Now While I am sure you believe that you have experienced paternalism (western paternalism) in ways or quantities that no one else could understand you weren’t being told about it here (again it wasn’t about you) I was describing a process as being paternalistic, which even if you have in your most special of native existences a virtual monopoloy on it, wouldn’t detract from the fact that the discussion regarding tourism in Burma is paternalistic (and not about you). So do you have anything else to contribute outside fo your auto-biographical details and anti intellectualism?
Tara for the record the accusation was a class traitor who was a pig-ignorant narcissistic and conceited native…thanks for adding condescension to the paternalism.
Thank you Nirut.
Those urban voters sound similar to voters in the west – voting on single issues seems to be very prevalent (in Australia usually it’s called voting with the hip-pocket)
I was just trying to be rational looking at the big picture of how divisive Thaksin had become and once he had shown his true colors with the Temasek deal, why people still supported him.
Of course, if I put my irrational hat on, I too can find many reasons to vote for Thaksin.
Nirut has vast knowledge, and I value his opinion.
There are many subtlties, complexities, nuances involved in Thai politics (not to mention cronyism) but overall I still think it was necessary to take one step back to move forward again.
Excellent post, among a series of excellent recent posts! I’m curious to know if you think Anand’s comments are anything more than a simple restatement of supposedly Asian Values. Although his comments appear to allow for a (non-racial) process of assimilation, this assimilation seems to take place precisely in the mental and moral spheres, precisely the location of the Asian Values debate.
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Lecture: Thongchai in London on the Coup
That’s going to be an exciting event for people in London (and probably some from Oxford, Nick?) to hear Ajarn Thongchai reflecting on the September 19 coup. He is probably the most outspoken Thai academic who is against the idea of employing non-democratic means to resolve the political conflict.
It is a bit unfortunate that the event falls on Tuesday which may prevent some students, especially those outside London, to attend. Hopefully, they will record the lecture or broadcast it live on the internet for those who can’t.
Lecture: Thongchai in London on the Coup
You should definitely attend, it went well at Stanford but there were not many audiences though (around 15). His informal dinner chat with Thai students there was better-attended (around 20, Thais only). A lot of his talk was covered in the new article http://www.prachatai.com/05web/th/home/page2.php?mod=mod_ptcms&ContentID=5830&SystemModuleKey=HilightNews&System_Session_Language=Thai
I blogged about his talk at stanford (in Thai), in case anyone wants to read.
http://www.bloggang.com/viewdiary.php?id=bfpinkerton&group=1
Flat earth and global (dis)location
There were, and I assume still are, Karen villagers that could distinguish between different mortar rounds by the sound they made, and different calibers of small arms fire, but had never seen an escalator. Bertil Lintner recount in his book “Land of Jade’ how an small boy in the Kokang region ran away from him crying when he pointed a camera at the boy; the child thought it was a gun. Lintner commented that it was sobering to reflect that there were areas of the world at the close of the 20th century where children didn’t know what a camera was, but already knew what a gun was capable of. I suspect the same holds true in the 21st Century. I’m afraid that in lots of remote upper mainland SE Asia people, like the villagers in Laos, are quite connected to the global scene and political economy. It just depends on what aspect of the global scene you are talking about. By the same token, the average Australian or US citizen is probably quite dislocated from aspects of the global scene and political economy, especially the unpleasant bits.
Somewhat off topic, but Nicholas have you heard about the elephant tusks of the Ginsi Duwa?
Lecture: Thongchai in London on the Coup
Great to see Prof.Thongchai talk about Coup at SOAS, esp. after Sonthi (Limthongkul) has been there around a month ago. I beleive Prof.Thongchai will do a much better job at explaining the event from the academic perspective.
His recent articles about the Coup on various Thai website was very insightful. He did criticise many Thai academics for the way that they are being “pragmatist” about the Coup (Many Thai academics saw Coup as acceptable solution or as the past that cannot be changed, so they join the arrays of reform that’s taking place in the present. One of the remarkable one that did this is Thammasat University Rector, Surapon Nitigraipoj).
Well, I agree with him to some extent about many Thai academics being pragmatist. But on the other side, when he criticise pragmatism serverely, he himself can be criticise back for being “idealist”.
for Thongchai recent article on Pragmatism of Thai academicians
http://www.prachatai.com/05web/th/home/page2.php?mod=mod_ptcms&ContentID=5735&SystemModuleKey=HilightNews&System_Session_Language=Thai
(It’s in Thai, so hope you can read that)
“You’re not Asians yet…” and other arguments
Needless to say, the prestige and credibility of Western Democracy in various democratizing corners of the world has taken a big hit since the Iraq War. Before, people may not have a full understanding of Democracy but at least they have a tangible level of faith in the process. After Iraq, this faith is severely shaken and to a large extent replaced by cynicism.
In the case of Thailand, many people are taken aback by the international opposition as they view this coup as ‘righteous’. So, it’s not surprisingly that people take offense when they are lectured by Western leaders, esp. since the moral credibility of these are seriously undermined by the carnage in Iraq.
That’s just my observation. A lot of times, there’s arguments about regime change in Thailand, the counterexample of the forced regime change in Iraq is always given.
Rewarding and regulating the upland poor
The role of forests in averting floods must be getting a lot of consideration in Thailand at the moment. What’s the consensus (if there is any) on that?
“You’re not Asians yet…” and other arguments
Didn’t Anand speak out against the coup at first, then changed his tune ?
Flat earth and global (dis)location
I was more thinking in terms of Nick’s later comment and the ways in which upland groups are tied into the global political economy, even if they are unaware of how or why (though I suspect american exile Hmong probably have a better idea of how global P.E. works than I do). Of course, the knowledge/theory of upland groups as to why american funded agencies keep coming and burning their crops would probably provide its own unique insights.
Flat earth and global (dis)location
A nice recentering of the perspective James but your particular version (even with its caveat) lends itself to framing “the rural folk of the hills” as unsophisticated. I would be inclined to take that extra step and say that the earth not being flat is only one other way of understanding the cosmos that we all occupy and that within our system it is hard (if not impossible) to refute, but not unlike the Azande Oracle and the system within which it sits or is a part of. In terms of the flat earth issue however, we are inclined to render it particularly meaningful and do so by misrecognising its historical emergence (contingence) and the circumstances around which it occurred through as a revolution of science rather than the cultural and political one (structural change in the sense of the structure of the conjuncture that Sahlins developed) it really was and as the quote from the article illustrates not subscribing to our enlightened perspective is at least worthy of exclamation in disbelief if not a total tsk tsk-ing over ignorance…though the latter is never far away
I would say that the “surprising” fact that these children (as many of the people in my experience who dwell in the highlands of northern Thailand, Burma, Laos and Southern China do) do not “know” the world is not flat as “we do”, is better understood perhaps in terms of the rich diversity of human posibility and rather, than how far away understanding of the global is, it might be a better reflection of the relevance (or lack thereof) of it, to other people’s life worlds. I for one am of the opinion that the global, in the sense that it is being used here and in most academic writings, is but a cultural elaboration of the globe earth theory and as such an analytic construct that has taken on a life of its own…I say this in the sense of the discussion of rationality superstition and voodoo that Hobby and I have been having on another thread here…
“You’re not Asians yet…” and other arguments
Are Anand’s comments just not newsworthy?
He was, and probably continues to be, Thailand’s most influential public intellectual. See here. His ideas have massive credibility among the Thai people.
Of course, here’s what I think about Anand and the junta: “They’re not democratic yet… they have an entirely different mentality – they belong to the Asian group.”
“They believe that whenever there is a coup things would be alright again. There would be no bloodshed or discontent. It would be followed by this or that … and not many realize that the 1991 coup resulted in Bloody May, or the 1985 coup resulted in dozens dead and injured, or the 1977 coup was an excuse for the 6 October Massacre.
“It’s politically correct – you know the attitude – to say that ‘coup d’etat is good’. Practically, some diplomats understood, but nobody listened to them.”
“Asian leaders – be they Burmese, Thai, Singaporean, or Chinese are uninformed people. They’re ignorant, they’re completely ignorant”.
Recent Australian perspectives on the coup
I gather from the Bangkok Post that the generals have now begun appointing themselves to potentially lucrative SOE board positions. Very back to the eighties. But it’s ok, because soldiers aren’t interested in business, they think only of the nation…
“You’re not Asians yet…” and other arguments
Erik D: I’m curious to know if you think Anand’s comments are anything more than a simple restatement of supposedly Asian Values
From what I have read on the topic, Thailand has not necessarily followed the Singapore “Asian values” approach. However, there is a “Thai values” approach (you could say this is related to the whole “Thainess” debate) which many are fond of as illustrated by National Legislative Assembly president Meechai Ruchupan in yesterday’s Bangkok Post:
“Mr Meechai said he would like to see a “Thai kind of constitution” free of imported ideas that could prove counterproductive for the country.”
I am certainly not opposed to values/culture affecting discussion of rights/constitutional framework for the protection of rights, but it is very easy to label rights as being counterproductive to the country as Meechai does above. I must say that Aung San Suu Kyi gives one of the better critiques on the dangers of such argument. In this journal article (“II. Freedom, Development, and Human Worth” Journal of Democracy – Volume 6, Number 2, April 1995, pp. 11-19), she wrote:
“It is claimed, usually without adequate evidence, that democratic values and human rights run counter to the national culture, and therefore to be beneficial they need to be modified–perhaps to the extent that they are barely recognizable.
The “national culture” can become a bizarre graft of carefully selected historical incidents and distorted social values intended to justify the policies and actions of those in power.”
The excerpts are from pages 13-14.
Nick: Thanks for the plug.
Are Anand’s comments just not newsworthy?
Whenever Anand spoke previously and was critical of Thaksin, his comments were deemed newsworthy then. I didn’t expect all the papers to highlight his comments and give them prominent coverage, but they were certainly worthy of at least a small news article.
Flat earth and global (dis)location
Would it be more accurate to say that understanding (or at least, a western understanding) of the global issues is far away, rather than the issues themselves? For example, many upland groups in Laos are directly affected by the policy of banning opium cultivation – this has been made a “global issue” chiefly by the United States, for reasons which are not entirely clear to me, nevermind to upland Hmong – but the effects of that global issue are definitely felt.
Gateway to Aussie Burma activism
[…] As the site continues to grow, and more resources are added, it should become an outstanding resource for those, in Australia and around the world, who are keen to learn more about the Burmese story. An increasing number of Burma-related websites, including New Mandala, are starting to use Burma Gateway’s impressive suite of interactive tools. As capacities for online collaboration and sharing mature, a site like Burma Gateway is well positioned to serve as a linchpin in national and international networks. […]
Burma boycott – some questions about “avoided tourism”
Tim, or whoever you are, I have let that last comment through just to show readers what nonsense you are capable of. Now that readers are clear on that, there will be no need for me to let through similar rants. Go back to your books.
Burma boycott – some questions about “avoided tourism”
Aiontay, I do apologise for putting you in a position where you were unable to contribute anything intelligent to this thread, effectivelly leaving you to reduce discussion about Burma to being about you, perhaps a default position of yours when someone has different views to your own? It certainly highlights the point I mde about middle-class appropriation of other’s experince. The relevance of your family and self and their mixed class composition and ethnicity to the discussion is lost on me and particulalry uninteresting to be honest. This would be the case even if you were from Kachin or the Shan States, were Red Wa or a Tibeto-Burman speaking indigene of the hills of northern Burma and made the same ludicrous claims. Basically ethnicity and in particular your is not what we are talking about.
Now While I am sure you believe that you have experienced paternalism (western paternalism) in ways or quantities that no one else could understand you weren’t being told about it here (again it wasn’t about you) I was describing a process as being paternalistic, which even if you have in your most special of native existences a virtual monopoloy on it, wouldn’t detract from the fact that the discussion regarding tourism in Burma is paternalistic (and not about you). So do you have anything else to contribute outside fo your auto-biographical details and anti intellectualism?
Tara for the record the accusation was a class traitor who was a pig-ignorant narcissistic and conceited native…thanks for adding condescension to the paternalism.
Thai capital to shift (it’s in the stars)!
Thank you Nirut.
Those urban voters sound similar to voters in the west – voting on single issues seems to be very prevalent (in Australia usually it’s called voting with the hip-pocket)
I was just trying to be rational looking at the big picture of how divisive Thaksin had become and once he had shown his true colors with the Temasek deal, why people still supported him.
Of course, if I put my irrational hat on, I too can find many reasons to vote for Thaksin.
New Mandala in the press
Thanks for the support Vichai.
Nirut has vast knowledge, and I value his opinion.
There are many subtlties, complexities, nuances involved in Thai politics (not to mention cronyism) but overall I still think it was necessary to take one step back to move forward again.
“You’re not Asians yet…” and other arguments
Excellent post, among a series of excellent recent posts! I’m curious to know if you think Anand’s comments are anything more than a simple restatement of supposedly Asian Values. Although his comments appear to allow for a (non-racial) process of assimilation, this assimilation seems to take place precisely in the mental and moral spheres, precisely the location of the Asian Values debate.
New Mandala in the press
nganadeeleg November 13th, 2006 at 9:51 am.
I like that post .. straight to the point, no waffling.
Nirut on the other hand seem to enjoy displaying his convoluted style impressed in his own mastery of the incomprehensible.
nganadeeleg I did not see anyone reponding coherently to this particular post.