“And i am sorry, everybody knows since decades that Thailand needs a few more real democratic parties (not just one). What is ivory tower thinking is believing that this actually can be achieved at the present time, and that this would be a viable and realistic option right now. It isn’t. It is a pipe dream. Don’t you think people in both colors are not aware of this, would like to have this, but also know that this is for the time being just not a realistic option? And that trying to make this real now could even dilute every advancement that has been made in the past ten years (just look what happened with the PAD’s New Politics Party, which, apart from their ultra-nationalism had similar aspirations)?”
Your repeated suggestions that my opinions are unrealistic and not based in real-world thinking are not insults of course, because it is simply true?
And your constant repetition that things need to develop in people’s consciousness before institutions can be expected is not the same as saying Thais are not ready for liberal democracy?
And saying that PAD’s New Politics party shared democratic aspirations? What is that?
I don’t have to spend time with your homies in the UDD/PT world to have valid insights and opinions regarding the state of democratization in Thailand, Nick.
I don’t think that is how things work in the real world. It would be like arguing that only the people in the circle around the Bush administration had valid insights into the war in Iraq.
I’ll close there.
(I never accused you of being a Yellow shirt, btw.
I simply pointed out that your equation of the corporatist fascism espoused by the PAD group with liberal democracy was an indication of how far down the road of redefining democracy in the direction of “Thai-style democracy” you have obviously traveled.
Like I said, we are talking about very different things.
Chatwadee Rose Amornpat is the only English language woman writer of Thai origin who is not threatened by Thailand”s barbaric less majeste law which prohibits people from criticizing the king, queen, heir-apparent and regents. Each offense carries a mandatory jail term of 3 to 15 years. Countless numbers of innocent people are now rotting in jail throughout Thailand, due to this unjust law.
It’s time to boycott Thai goods and anything Thai until this law is abolished. Also stop going to Thailand for cheap sex, you guys!
She seems to blame the monarchy for everything bad about her country. I couldn’t agree more.
Thank you NM for printing this fine piece from Rose.
“South Korea had communist student organizations, activist Roman Catholics”
Actually, what shaped Korea far more was Korean Buddhism & Confucianism. The South Korean population – not just communists/catholics – stood up en masse in places like Gwangju and were, just like in Thailand, massacred for doing so.
“Of course both Germany and Korea, as well as that other Asian democratic success story Japan, underwent long periods of occupation by America.”
Germany was occupied by the US, UK, France, the Soviet Union and, to a lesser extent, Poland, Belgium and Luxembourg. The West German FDR was created in 1949. Hardly a long occupation and not just American.
The longest occupiers of Korea were the Japanese who officially annexed Korea in 1910 and then attempted to completely obliterate Korean culture. They remained until their defeat in 1945.
Attempting to debunk historical comparisons that weren’t historical comparisons in the first place by making your own rather absurd historical comparisons only makes you look a bit silly.
Ken Ward’s comments are a useful complement to the sharp, albeit succinct, analysis of Evelyn Goh. Her extended paper goes into greater detail to further substantiate her argument.
I agree that there are continuities with the presidency of SBY. Indeed many of the elements in Jokowi’s foreign policy can be found in a little cited forward planning document published prior to the presidential elections in 2014 by the State Intelligence Bureau and edited by Muhmmad As Hikum. The English language version was published under the title “Toward 2014-2019: Strengthening Indonesia in a Changing World”.
This ‘return to the future’ is possible I would suggest because of the successes of both Suharto and SBY in their internationalist ‘reassurance’ approach to foreign relations. After the disaster of Konfrontasi Suharto had to reassure Indonesia’s neighbours that the country was now a model regional citizen: hence the investment in ASEAN. Post Reformasi, after three transitional presidents, SBY had to reassure the international community, as he put it, that democracy, Islam and modernity were compatible and that Indonesia, having entered the G20 Club, would be a ‘good international citizen’.
Paradoxically this succesful internationalist heritage means that, like for Tony Abbott in Australia, Jokowi feels free to conduct a more nationalist style of foreign relations where, as Ken Ward indicates, there is a preccupation with domestic issues. However because of SBY’s (and Marty Natalegawa’s) cosmopolitian success, one has the impression that Jokowi feels that promoting Indonesia’s national interest no longer has to be packaged in diplomatic niceties.
Emjay, now your argumentation rapidly deteriorates into attack is the best defense and insults.
In your last two replies you have not responded to a single point i have raised. You summarily judge the PT/UDD as “anti-democratic phuak of phuaks”. What about varied people like Chaturon Chaisaeng, Pongthep Thepkanjana, Dr Weng Tojirakarn, Sombat Boongamanong, Dr. Praseng and so many others?
Evidence of progress is not just seen in the creation of structures. It is seen in the development of the discourse over the past ten years (have you ever followed that?). What about the 1 1/2 year conflict over the amnesty bill, where the majority UDD did stand up to Thaksin and the PT party, ending with the withdrawal of the bill, and new formed and defined strategic relationships between Red Shirts, Thaksin and the PT? Doesn’t that show that your hypothesis of nothing has changed since Thaksin was PM is simply wrong? Are you even aware of what presently takes place in the internal discourse, the arguments, debates and discussions?
When i state that there are wide grassroots organizations you distort that by calling this “cell-structure of radical groups” you betray your complete ignorance of what the Red Shirt movement actually is. The success of the Red Shirt movement (which, by the way, is not just the UDD, but is comprised of the UDD and plenty of so called “free red shirt groups”, which stand in very complex relations which each other) is that it is exactly not radical, but comes from people from all walks of life. While there are radical sub groups, the vast majority is moderate in their political demands.
Joining the 2010 protests may be laudable, but this is just not enough to understand the Red Shirt movement. The Red Shirt movement existed before, and continued after. Historical data? You have the opportunity to see things with your own eyes and won’t need to interpret and opine on historical data. Why don’t you do that?
And finally, you are getting really absurd when you accuse me of saying that “Thais and Thailand are not yet ready for democracy”, even going so far to call me of being close to the Yellow Alliance.
Disagreeing with you, stating that democracy is a process, and acknowledging that in the Yellow Alliance are people who wish for a democratic development (although they are somewhat misguided, in my view) hardly makes one a Yellow Shirt. And in my particular case, this is the possibly most absurd accusation imaginable.
I would suggest to you to please step back from your emotions for a moment, and think for a minute what you just said there…
Dear Marayu, many thanks for the correction on the naming error… goes to show one should always check even when rapidly writing comments. Bit of a lapsus on my part to give him a Chinese type first name.
Your point is a vald one: we need to analyze Myanmar’s foreign relations by taking into account domestic considerations including with members of the Chinese diaspora in Myanmar. For example, some observers have argued that the singling out of Muslims in Myanmar as a target for Bamar ethno-religious xenophobia, is a way of distracting attention from economic behaviour of people of Chinese origin in the country.
Has the video been uploaded to vimeo or …?
I would very much like to see it, but cannot from Indonesia. There was the same problem a few months ago with the interview with Greg Fealy about the shortcomings of Indonesian President “Jokowi”. In this case you later uploaded the video to youtube
Ultimately what you are saying Nick is that Thais and Thailand are not yet ready for democracy, if by that we mean liberal democracy.
That position is very old, very smug, very condescending, and very much a part of the standard repertoire of the very people you would like to appear to oppose.
No wonder you saw PAD’s party as sharing your democratic desires.
“Germany (west) was not as fractured and divided as Thailand.”
West Germany wasn’t “divided” at its inception – it was smashed to smithereens.
It then adopted a federal system which de facto divided it as a political settlement into constituent semi-autonomous parts.
As for other countries which overcame decades of coups, military govts etc I’d look towards South America and even South Korea as potential starting points.
Argentina’s jailing of its generals is interesting.
You don’t get democracy only by day dreaming about it.
Again, you prefer to suggest I am missing a point rather than accepting simply that I disagree with you.
As to your suggestion that I somehow think of democracy as a “heavenly status” to be achieved rather than a process, it is you who is content to rest with the present bogus UDD/PT “pro-democracy” movement and I who am demanding to see some evidence of “process”, you know, the attempt to create the institutions that would further the democratization of the Thai state.
You want to pretend it means nothing that these people have actually already been elected and sat in government for years.
You want to suggest that a cell-structure of radical groups is a sign of hope when the political party they field and support with their lives is a corrupt and anti-democratic phuak of phuaks and nothing more than SOP for Thai politics.
This sort of inability to simply accept that someone can look at the same historical data and come to different conclusions is always an indication that you are dealing with an ideologue. I think that whether you know it or not, and whether you would ever acknowledge it or not, that is precisely what you have become.
Too bad the ideology you are prepared to twist and shout for isn’t liberal-democracy.
The Thai-style version you are obviously plumping for has advocates aplenty already. On both sides of the present conflict.
I don’t like either and I don’t believe either have anyone’s best interests at heart but their own and that of their groups.
Tribalism is not conducive to liberal democracy after all.
Again, you miss the point. Democracy is not a heavenly status to be achieved – it is a constant process with set backs, U-turns, derivations, disappointments and advancement. Not just in Thailand, but all over the world. I am not joining any campaign, sorry. I am not an activist, i write, i take photos. I am responsible for what i write, and not what others write. I do not think that i have ever written such polemics as “the junta destroyed Thai democracy”. What i would say is that there was a concerted effort to overthrow electoral democracy, which in itself is part of Thailand’s process and struggle towards democracy. Simply stating that “there never was democracy” and “the junta destroyed democracy” is very similar – they are absolute statements which ignore the nature of very fluid and complex historical processes.
I don’t know the Reds you have associated with in 2010. Many of the people i am talking with in the Red Movement are of the “Lun Sanam Luang”, people who have been active since the 2006 coup (and before), many of them have even taken part in 1992 and some even in the 70’s. I am also talking with people in the grassroots groups in local districts, the lowest organizational structures of both the UDD and free Red Shirt groups, and look at their (changing and developing) relationship with both the main UDD leadership and politicians of the PT party.
A lot of these people are distrustful of “middle class liberals” telling them what they should think. Will these liberals stay the course with them? The Red Shirts have been at this for ten years, and not just during big protests, but they have formed from very little huge nationwide networks of grassroots organizations, many different sub philosophies (daeng patiroop, daeng patiwat, daeng gai na, daeng da sawang, etc), many subgroups, highly complex organizational structures and communication networks, are in constant exchange with each other, agree, disagree, argue and find internal compromises. While now these groups in the present condition have difficulties to meet, they are still communicating on strategies, etc. Some groups have found ways around the restrictions, by, for example changing their meeting places into karaoke lounges, use line groups online, go and meet at religious festivals, funerals, etc.
Where do you fit in there? Are you, or have you been part of any of those groups? have you the insights in these long established groups to actually make qualified statements of what is taking place in the Red Shirt movement. I somewhat doubt that, as you are so stuck in the very limited and limiting Thaksin debate. If you talk with grassroots groups, Thaksin is discussed on very interesting and to some part also critical levels.
My suggestion to you is to have a look around these many layers of the Red Shirt movement, and find your place of involvement. Because it is my experience that one of the big mistakes of many of these “middle class liberals” is that they rarely go and talk with people outside of their circle.
And, no, i vehemently reject the notion that the changes that have taken place is just “talk talk”. This, i am sorry to say, is very patronizing. The building of political awareness under large previously politically apathetic sectors of society is the basics of a developing democracy, and in many European countries took a lot longer to achieve. The existence of such a discourse under such wide sectors of society is a major achievement. And yes, the dialectics of the conflict between Red and Yellow was absolutely necessary for this development, and continues to be so.
As to rule of law – the 2010 incident has gone further in the court than any other such incident in Thai history. But that is a question of looking at the glass half full or half empty. While we had no trial (yet) against accused from the side of the state, we had at least the court inquests. That is already a positive step, or development, and an increase of accountability as compared to 1992, ’73, or ’76 – or the WoD.
All what we are talking about here – democracy, rule of law, etc. do take time and effort to achieve. They are processes, and not absolutes. This period of the military coup and efforts to re-establish the rule of bureaucratic polity are also only transitional periods. In the Thaksin debate, i look at Thaksin as a part of a historical process, and another transition. His appearance was a historical inevitability caused by so many factors, his influence on Thai politics was and is part of a complex web of historical processes.
Extremely interesting claims here about the gold which may lead people to dismiss them too quickly.
About the state holders of gold: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold_reserve
US – 8,133.5 tons
Germany – 3,383.4 tons
IMF – 2,814.0 tons
Italy 2,451.8 tons
France 2,435.4 tons
More personal gold than IT, FR, IMF an GE combined? You could set up your own personal IMF with that kind of bling. I am not saying that’s impossible or patently untrue. It just may need further consideration and qualification.
9000 tons x gold price of us$34,594,976.00 per ton
( http://onlygold.com/Info/Value-Of-Gold.asp )
= $311,354,784,000 value of 900 tons of gold
_______________________________
or $311+ billion dollars of personal Gold
($350 billion if you believe the BNW linked article)
although not implausible, is a lot more than the 30-40 that Forbes likes to say, and somebody, like you dear reader, needs to decide right now if they buy Forbes’ numbers or billionairesnewswire.com ‘s. And what the different implications may be.
If billionairenewswire is true, it would outline and require a totally and completely different story, analysis and ballgame than the one conventionally touted by mainstream media for decades.
________________________________
However, “pure gold” is 99.99% AU periodic table gold. This kind is mostly found in mint coins like US Eagle, Canadian Maple, British Sovereign, Australian Nugget etc.
However, Most gold doesn’t come in this form, as it is melted into jewelry at
14k 58.5% gold.
18k 75% gold.
20k 91.2% gold.
24k is just 98-99% pure
Or gold can come in block bars that constantly require assay if they change hands.
Any gold that is produced for sale, unless state minted coins listed above, must have an assay certificate. Barring an assay ticket, you’ll have to have the gold certified or assayed by a professional. No matter if you are The King of Heaven or Lord of the Universe. Everybody has to do it. That’s not cheap. Assaying billions of dollars worth of gold is going to cost millions and millions of dollars.
All the gold ever mined in human history would barely fit into a squared tennis court or an Olympic size pool. “if you could somehow gather every scrap of gold that man has ever mined into one place, you could only build about one-third of the Washington Monument.” http://money.howstuffworks.com/question213.htm
So storing it or hiding it is not really the problem.
Further citations from billionairenewswire regarding these claims, if they could possibly be made public, would be greatly and hugely appreciated, as they could profoundly impact the spectrum of discourse.
Not too sure about Billionaire Newswire who Rose cites as evidence that HM has 9,000 tons of solid gold. I wonder where he keeps it all because my data has official gold holdings of the top 10 countries as follows (in tons): US:8,133.5; Germany: 3,384; IMF; 2,814 (perhaps after Greece has finished with the IMF a few tons less!); Italy: 2,451; France: 2,435; Russia: 1,283; China: 1,054; Switzerland: 1,040; Japan 765.2; and, Netherlands: 612.5. With so much gold HM might be able to buy much of Greece. But no seriously it does pay to check one’s facts on occasion.
“And again, you limit the war on drugs to Thaksin. Charges of murder? What do you me to say? That i agree with a utterly empty statement of intention? It’s completely pointless, as no murder charges will ever be done against anyone in the decision making positions during the WoD – neither Thaksin, nor police generals, nor military, nor the other factors. The WoD even had international backing. It was seen as the necessary thing to do, and from that perspective as successful as it rapidly reduced the amount of drugs. One day history may deal with it. But that is it.”
Of course, what you say here is absolutely the case.
There never will be charges laid for these murders, for the Reds assassinated by RTA snipers in May 2010, or for many other minor and major crimes committed by various people in Thailand who know some of the movers and shakers and therefore will never have to deal with any legal consequences of their acts.
That, after all, is what not having rule of law means.
The idea that the people around Thaksin would ever in their lifetimes push to have a viable rule of law system operating in this country is not even funny, Nick.
While it is often true that politics makes strange bedfellows, it is also true that when you lie down with corrupt murderous dogs the fleas you pick up will carry some awful viral infections.
There was a time when I got on here and on various forums and argued scathingly against the “sawng mai ow” position, taking exactly the same “realpolitic” position that you are taking.
But from my perspective, outside the inner channels of power and Thaksin’s employees in the PT system, the changes you refer to as having taken place in Thailand over the past ten years look like nothing more than the usual talk-talk-talk.
As I have said and you don’t deny, nothing real has been done and more significantly nothing real has been attempted by the group you see as Thailand’s only hope.
In all their years in government, especially before the 2006 coup when there was a surge of parliamentary legitimacy and real power, this group has done nothing to work toward democratizing the Thai state. Nothing.
Maybe you haven’t actually spent much time working day after day among Thai middle-class bureaucrats and so make the mistake of thinking that what people say and the number of meetings they hold to say it in is somehow indicative of the likelihood of action. It isn’t… I mean it really isn’t.
One of the reasons you insist on the impossibility of a group of middle-class liberals joining together to make a democratic political party is people like you insisting that it cannot be done.
One of the reasons the “pro-democratic” movement in Thailand is dominated by a man who ordered extrajudicial executions and publicly proclaimed that being elected put him above the law when he was in power is that people like you can suggest with a straight face that he shouldn’t be held responsible for his crimes in office because no one else is either.
So, yes, you can use the “armchair” slur to suggest that only people who hobnob with the real PT/UDD people can have valid insights and opinions. The Reds I got to know in 2010, as far as I know now, have all but one drifted back into relative apathy, not because of the Yellows or the RTA, but because they, as little people far removed from the circles where real awareness is generated, could see that PT was not doing anything for them.
And parents of Thai kids like me who want to see changes in things like police corruption and educational malfeasance amounting to child abuse do not really care how your associates talk amongst themselves. The things we want done require institutional change, action not talk.
I’m not moaning, Nick. I am expressing my opinion.
If you know already that Thailand is not and has never been a democracy, maybe you would be willing to join with me in a campaign to stop the international media from constantly printing stories that suggest that this junta destroyed Thai democracy?
Or maybe that sort of accuracy is not important when what you are engaged in is propaganda and “black-and-white, either/or” oversimplification?
Democracy in Thailand needs and turns on a way of life and relations which Thainess as imposed , Monarchy Nation and Religion, the un-holy trinity, is a huge obstacle. Thais need untying from Thainess if they are to become citizens and not subjects
Great picture of HM Numero Uno – one lens of his shades tastefully darker than the other. It’s a shame this fine graphic wasn’t credited. Visually a major improvement over the real McCoy.
Still not blocked at 12.41pm 16 June local Thai time
Too many Western Thai experts unintentionally reproduce aspects of myths about the king and not the ignoble, base and impure aspects of the reality. The monarchy is used to rule and dominate by Sino Thai rulers military might not ‘ network monarchy’
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Democracy worship in Thailand
“And i am sorry, everybody knows since decades that Thailand needs a few more real democratic parties (not just one). What is ivory tower thinking is believing that this actually can be achieved at the present time, and that this would be a viable and realistic option right now. It isn’t. It is a pipe dream. Don’t you think people in both colors are not aware of this, would like to have this, but also know that this is for the time being just not a realistic option? And that trying to make this real now could even dilute every advancement that has been made in the past ten years (just look what happened with the PAD’s New Politics Party, which, apart from their ultra-nationalism had similar aspirations)?”
Your repeated suggestions that my opinions are unrealistic and not based in real-world thinking are not insults of course, because it is simply true?
And your constant repetition that things need to develop in people’s consciousness before institutions can be expected is not the same as saying Thais are not ready for liberal democracy?
And saying that PAD’s New Politics party shared democratic aspirations? What is that?
I don’t have to spend time with your homies in the UDD/PT world to have valid insights and opinions regarding the state of democratization in Thailand, Nick.
I don’t think that is how things work in the real world. It would be like arguing that only the people in the circle around the Bush administration had valid insights into the war in Iraq.
I’ll close there.
(I never accused you of being a Yellow shirt, btw.
I simply pointed out that your equation of the corporatist fascism espoused by the PAD group with liberal democracy was an indication of how far down the road of redefining democracy in the direction of “Thai-style democracy” you have obviously traveled.
Like I said, we are talking about very different things.
Royal resilience and Thai dictatorship
Chatwadee Rose Amornpat is the only English language woman writer of Thai origin who is not threatened by Thailand”s barbaric less majeste law which prohibits people from criticizing the king, queen, heir-apparent and regents. Each offense carries a mandatory jail term of 3 to 15 years. Countless numbers of innocent people are now rotting in jail throughout Thailand, due to this unjust law.
It’s time to boycott Thai goods and anything Thai until this law is abolished. Also stop going to Thailand for cheap sex, you guys!
She seems to blame the monarchy for everything bad about her country. I couldn’t agree more.
Thank you NM for printing this fine piece from Rose.
Democracy worship in Thailand
“South Korea had communist student organizations, activist Roman Catholics”
Actually, what shaped Korea far more was Korean Buddhism & Confucianism. The South Korean population – not just communists/catholics – stood up en masse in places like Gwangju and were, just like in Thailand, massacred for doing so.
“Of course both Germany and Korea, as well as that other Asian democratic success story Japan, underwent long periods of occupation by America.”
Germany was occupied by the US, UK, France, the Soviet Union and, to a lesser extent, Poland, Belgium and Luxembourg. The West German FDR was created in 1949. Hardly a long occupation and not just American.
The longest occupiers of Korea were the Japanese who officially annexed Korea in 1910 and then attempted to completely obliterate Korean culture. They remained until their defeat in 1945.
Attempting to debunk historical comparisons that weren’t historical comparisons in the first place by making your own rather absurd historical comparisons only makes you look a bit silly.
Making waves
Ken Ward’s comments are a useful complement to the sharp, albeit succinct, analysis of Evelyn Goh. Her extended paper goes into greater detail to further substantiate her argument.
I agree that there are continuities with the presidency of SBY. Indeed many of the elements in Jokowi’s foreign policy can be found in a little cited forward planning document published prior to the presidential elections in 2014 by the State Intelligence Bureau and edited by Muhmmad As Hikum. The English language version was published under the title “Toward 2014-2019: Strengthening Indonesia in a Changing World”.
While there are continuities with both SBY and Suharto there is, as I have argued eleswhere (http://www.eastasiaforum.org/2015/05/12/executions-signal-a-return-to-sukarno-era-foreign-policy-in-indonesia/) a return to a Sukarnoist style, and a degree of substance (e.g. economic nationalism) in Jokowi’s foreign policy praxis.
This ‘return to the future’ is possible I would suggest because of the successes of both Suharto and SBY in their internationalist ‘reassurance’ approach to foreign relations. After the disaster of Konfrontasi Suharto had to reassure Indonesia’s neighbours that the country was now a model regional citizen: hence the investment in ASEAN. Post Reformasi, after three transitional presidents, SBY had to reassure the international community, as he put it, that democracy, Islam and modernity were compatible and that Indonesia, having entered the G20 Club, would be a ‘good international citizen’.
Paradoxically this succesful internationalist heritage means that, like for Tony Abbott in Australia, Jokowi feels free to conduct a more nationalist style of foreign relations where, as Ken Ward indicates, there is a preccupation with domestic issues. However because of SBY’s (and Marty Natalegawa’s) cosmopolitian success, one has the impression that Jokowi feels that promoting Indonesia’s national interest no longer has to be packaged in diplomatic niceties.
Democracy worship in Thailand
Emjay, now your argumentation rapidly deteriorates into attack is the best defense and insults.
In your last two replies you have not responded to a single point i have raised. You summarily judge the PT/UDD as “anti-democratic phuak of phuaks”. What about varied people like Chaturon Chaisaeng, Pongthep Thepkanjana, Dr Weng Tojirakarn, Sombat Boongamanong, Dr. Praseng and so many others?
Evidence of progress is not just seen in the creation of structures. It is seen in the development of the discourse over the past ten years (have you ever followed that?). What about the 1 1/2 year conflict over the amnesty bill, where the majority UDD did stand up to Thaksin and the PT party, ending with the withdrawal of the bill, and new formed and defined strategic relationships between Red Shirts, Thaksin and the PT? Doesn’t that show that your hypothesis of nothing has changed since Thaksin was PM is simply wrong? Are you even aware of what presently takes place in the internal discourse, the arguments, debates and discussions?
When i state that there are wide grassroots organizations you distort that by calling this “cell-structure of radical groups” you betray your complete ignorance of what the Red Shirt movement actually is. The success of the Red Shirt movement (which, by the way, is not just the UDD, but is comprised of the UDD and plenty of so called “free red shirt groups”, which stand in very complex relations which each other) is that it is exactly not radical, but comes from people from all walks of life. While there are radical sub groups, the vast majority is moderate in their political demands.
Joining the 2010 protests may be laudable, but this is just not enough to understand the Red Shirt movement. The Red Shirt movement existed before, and continued after. Historical data? You have the opportunity to see things with your own eyes and won’t need to interpret and opine on historical data. Why don’t you do that?
And finally, you are getting really absurd when you accuse me of saying that “Thais and Thailand are not yet ready for democracy”, even going so far to call me of being close to the Yellow Alliance.
Disagreeing with you, stating that democracy is a process, and acknowledging that in the Yellow Alliance are people who wish for a democratic development (although they are somewhat misguided, in my view) hardly makes one a Yellow Shirt. And in my particular case, this is the possibly most absurd accusation imaginable.
I would suggest to you to please step back from your emotions for a moment, and think for a minute what you just said there…
ANU Thai Studies conference keynote address
Hi Marc
Yes unfortunately the video was shot by an external company which only host on Vimeo. We will look in to getting it on to YouTube as soon as possible.
Cheers,
James
Aung San Suu Kyi’s visit to China
Dear Marayu, many thanks for the correction on the naming error… goes to show one should always check even when rapidly writing comments. Bit of a lapsus on my part to give him a Chinese type first name.
Your point is a vald one: we need to analyze Myanmar’s foreign relations by taking into account domestic considerations including with members of the Chinese diaspora in Myanmar. For example, some observers have argued that the singling out of Muslims in Myanmar as a target for Bamar ethno-religious xenophobia, is a way of distracting attention from economic behaviour of people of Chinese origin in the country.
ANU Thai Studies conference keynote address
P.S. vimeo as well as several other websites are blocked in Indonesia because of the so-called “anti-pornography” law.
ANU Thai Studies conference keynote address
Has the video been uploaded to vimeo or …?
I would very much like to see it, but cannot from Indonesia. There was the same problem a few months ago with the interview with Greg Fealy about the shortcomings of Indonesian President “Jokowi”. In this case you later uploaded the video to youtube
Democracy worship in Thailand
South Korea had communist student organizations, activist Roman Catholics and Kim Dae Jung.
Thailand has Thaksin, about 12 students with admirable courage and beliefs, and Buddhism.
Thailand will be manufacturing its own version of the Hyundai before it has its own version of democracy as long as there is no movement to demand it.
Of course both Germany and Korea, as well as that other Asian democratic success story Japan, underwent long periods of occupation by America.
Perhaps we should be calling for the invasion of Thailand by the US rather than making spurious historical comparisons?
Democracy worship in Thailand
Addenda to the above:
Ultimately what you are saying Nick is that Thais and Thailand are not yet ready for democracy, if by that we mean liberal democracy.
That position is very old, very smug, very condescending, and very much a part of the standard repertoire of the very people you would like to appear to oppose.
No wonder you saw PAD’s party as sharing your democratic desires.
Democracy worship in Thailand
“Germany (west) was not as fractured and divided as Thailand.”
West Germany wasn’t “divided” at its inception – it was smashed to smithereens.
It then adopted a federal system which de facto divided it as a political settlement into constituent semi-autonomous parts.
As for other countries which overcame decades of coups, military govts etc I’d look towards South America and even South Korea as potential starting points.
Argentina’s jailing of its generals is interesting.
You don’t get democracy only by day dreaming about it.
Democracy worship in Thailand
Again, you prefer to suggest I am missing a point rather than accepting simply that I disagree with you.
As to your suggestion that I somehow think of democracy as a “heavenly status” to be achieved rather than a process, it is you who is content to rest with the present bogus UDD/PT “pro-democracy” movement and I who am demanding to see some evidence of “process”, you know, the attempt to create the institutions that would further the democratization of the Thai state.
You want to pretend it means nothing that these people have actually already been elected and sat in government for years.
You want to suggest that a cell-structure of radical groups is a sign of hope when the political party they field and support with their lives is a corrupt and anti-democratic phuak of phuaks and nothing more than SOP for Thai politics.
This sort of inability to simply accept that someone can look at the same historical data and come to different conclusions is always an indication that you are dealing with an ideologue. I think that whether you know it or not, and whether you would ever acknowledge it or not, that is precisely what you have become.
Too bad the ideology you are prepared to twist and shout for isn’t liberal-democracy.
The Thai-style version you are obviously plumping for has advocates aplenty already. On both sides of the present conflict.
I don’t like either and I don’t believe either have anyone’s best interests at heart but their own and that of their groups.
Tribalism is not conducive to liberal democracy after all.
Democracy worship in Thailand
Again, you miss the point. Democracy is not a heavenly status to be achieved – it is a constant process with set backs, U-turns, derivations, disappointments and advancement. Not just in Thailand, but all over the world. I am not joining any campaign, sorry. I am not an activist, i write, i take photos. I am responsible for what i write, and not what others write. I do not think that i have ever written such polemics as “the junta destroyed Thai democracy”. What i would say is that there was a concerted effort to overthrow electoral democracy, which in itself is part of Thailand’s process and struggle towards democracy. Simply stating that “there never was democracy” and “the junta destroyed democracy” is very similar – they are absolute statements which ignore the nature of very fluid and complex historical processes.
I don’t know the Reds you have associated with in 2010. Many of the people i am talking with in the Red Movement are of the “Lun Sanam Luang”, people who have been active since the 2006 coup (and before), many of them have even taken part in 1992 and some even in the 70’s. I am also talking with people in the grassroots groups in local districts, the lowest organizational structures of both the UDD and free Red Shirt groups, and look at their (changing and developing) relationship with both the main UDD leadership and politicians of the PT party.
A lot of these people are distrustful of “middle class liberals” telling them what they should think. Will these liberals stay the course with them? The Red Shirts have been at this for ten years, and not just during big protests, but they have formed from very little huge nationwide networks of grassroots organizations, many different sub philosophies (daeng patiroop, daeng patiwat, daeng gai na, daeng da sawang, etc), many subgroups, highly complex organizational structures and communication networks, are in constant exchange with each other, agree, disagree, argue and find internal compromises. While now these groups in the present condition have difficulties to meet, they are still communicating on strategies, etc. Some groups have found ways around the restrictions, by, for example changing their meeting places into karaoke lounges, use line groups online, go and meet at religious festivals, funerals, etc.
Where do you fit in there? Are you, or have you been part of any of those groups? have you the insights in these long established groups to actually make qualified statements of what is taking place in the Red Shirt movement. I somewhat doubt that, as you are so stuck in the very limited and limiting Thaksin debate. If you talk with grassroots groups, Thaksin is discussed on very interesting and to some part also critical levels.
My suggestion to you is to have a look around these many layers of the Red Shirt movement, and find your place of involvement. Because it is my experience that one of the big mistakes of many of these “middle class liberals” is that they rarely go and talk with people outside of their circle.
And, no, i vehemently reject the notion that the changes that have taken place is just “talk talk”. This, i am sorry to say, is very patronizing. The building of political awareness under large previously politically apathetic sectors of society is the basics of a developing democracy, and in many European countries took a lot longer to achieve. The existence of such a discourse under such wide sectors of society is a major achievement. And yes, the dialectics of the conflict between Red and Yellow was absolutely necessary for this development, and continues to be so.
As to rule of law – the 2010 incident has gone further in the court than any other such incident in Thai history. But that is a question of looking at the glass half full or half empty. While we had no trial (yet) against accused from the side of the state, we had at least the court inquests. That is already a positive step, or development, and an increase of accountability as compared to 1992, ’73, or ’76 – or the WoD.
All what we are talking about here – democracy, rule of law, etc. do take time and effort to achieve. They are processes, and not absolutes. This period of the military coup and efforts to re-establish the rule of bureaucratic polity are also only transitional periods. In the Thaksin debate, i look at Thaksin as a part of a historical process, and another transition. His appearance was a historical inevitability caused by so many factors, his influence on Thai politics was and is part of a complex web of historical processes.
Royal resilience and Thai dictatorship
Extremely interesting claims here about the gold which may lead people to dismiss them too quickly.
About the state holders of gold:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold_reserve
US – 8,133.5 tons
Germany – 3,383.4 tons
IMF – 2,814.0 tons
Italy 2,451.8 tons
France 2,435.4 tons
More personal gold than IT, FR, IMF an GE combined? You could set up your own personal IMF with that kind of bling. I am not saying that’s impossible or patently untrue. It just may need further consideration and qualification.
9000 tons x gold price of us$34,594,976.00 per ton
( http://onlygold.com/Info/Value-Of-Gold.asp )
= $311,354,784,000 value of 900 tons of gold
_______________________________
or $311+ billion dollars of personal Gold
($350 billion if you believe the BNW linked article)
although not implausible, is a lot more than the 30-40 that Forbes likes to say, and somebody, like you dear reader, needs to decide right now if they buy Forbes’ numbers or billionairesnewswire.com ‘s. And what the different implications may be.
If billionairenewswire is true, it would outline and require a totally and completely different story, analysis and ballgame than the one conventionally touted by mainstream media for decades.
________________________________
$311 billion personal gold.
What’s Thailand’s national debt? US$ 148 Billion
( http://www.nationaldebtclocks.org/debtclock/thailand )
Household debt? US $348 billion.
( http://www.bangkokpost.com/business/news/488224/household-debt-nears-crisis-point )
90% of GDP TH. GDP = us$387.25 billion
90% of 387.25 billion = US $348 billion.
_______________________________
However, “pure gold” is 99.99% AU periodic table gold. This kind is mostly found in mint coins like US Eagle, Canadian Maple, British Sovereign, Australian Nugget etc.
However, Most gold doesn’t come in this form, as it is melted into jewelry at
14k 58.5% gold.
18k 75% gold.
20k 91.2% gold.
24k is just 98-99% pure
Or gold can come in block bars that constantly require assay if they change hands.
Any gold that is produced for sale, unless state minted coins listed above, must have an assay certificate. Barring an assay ticket, you’ll have to have the gold certified or assayed by a professional. No matter if you are The King of Heaven or Lord of the Universe. Everybody has to do it. That’s not cheap. Assaying billions of dollars worth of gold is going to cost millions and millions of dollars.
All the gold ever mined in human history would barely fit into a squared tennis court or an Olympic size pool. “if you could somehow gather every scrap of gold that man has ever mined into one place, you could only build about one-third of the Washington Monument.” http://money.howstuffworks.com/question213.htm
So storing it or hiding it is not really the problem.
Further citations from billionairenewswire regarding these claims, if they could possibly be made public, would be greatly and hugely appreciated, as they could profoundly impact the spectrum of discourse.
Royal resilience and Thai dictatorship
Not too sure about Billionaire Newswire who Rose cites as evidence that HM has 9,000 tons of solid gold. I wonder where he keeps it all because my data has official gold holdings of the top 10 countries as follows (in tons): US:8,133.5; Germany: 3,384; IMF; 2,814 (perhaps after Greece has finished with the IMF a few tons less!); Italy: 2,451; France: 2,435; Russia: 1,283; China: 1,054; Switzerland: 1,040; Japan 765.2; and, Netherlands: 612.5. With so much gold HM might be able to buy much of Greece. But no seriously it does pay to check one’s facts on occasion.
Democracy worship in Thailand
“And again, you limit the war on drugs to Thaksin. Charges of murder? What do you me to say? That i agree with a utterly empty statement of intention? It’s completely pointless, as no murder charges will ever be done against anyone in the decision making positions during the WoD – neither Thaksin, nor police generals, nor military, nor the other factors. The WoD even had international backing. It was seen as the necessary thing to do, and from that perspective as successful as it rapidly reduced the amount of drugs. One day history may deal with it. But that is it.”
Of course, what you say here is absolutely the case.
There never will be charges laid for these murders, for the Reds assassinated by RTA snipers in May 2010, or for many other minor and major crimes committed by various people in Thailand who know some of the movers and shakers and therefore will never have to deal with any legal consequences of their acts.
That, after all, is what not having rule of law means.
The idea that the people around Thaksin would ever in their lifetimes push to have a viable rule of law system operating in this country is not even funny, Nick.
While it is often true that politics makes strange bedfellows, it is also true that when you lie down with corrupt murderous dogs the fleas you pick up will carry some awful viral infections.
There was a time when I got on here and on various forums and argued scathingly against the “sawng mai ow” position, taking exactly the same “realpolitic” position that you are taking.
But from my perspective, outside the inner channels of power and Thaksin’s employees in the PT system, the changes you refer to as having taken place in Thailand over the past ten years look like nothing more than the usual talk-talk-talk.
As I have said and you don’t deny, nothing real has been done and more significantly nothing real has been attempted by the group you see as Thailand’s only hope.
In all their years in government, especially before the 2006 coup when there was a surge of parliamentary legitimacy and real power, this group has done nothing to work toward democratizing the Thai state. Nothing.
Maybe you haven’t actually spent much time working day after day among Thai middle-class bureaucrats and so make the mistake of thinking that what people say and the number of meetings they hold to say it in is somehow indicative of the likelihood of action. It isn’t… I mean it really isn’t.
One of the reasons you insist on the impossibility of a group of middle-class liberals joining together to make a democratic political party is people like you insisting that it cannot be done.
One of the reasons the “pro-democratic” movement in Thailand is dominated by a man who ordered extrajudicial executions and publicly proclaimed that being elected put him above the law when he was in power is that people like you can suggest with a straight face that he shouldn’t be held responsible for his crimes in office because no one else is either.
So, yes, you can use the “armchair” slur to suggest that only people who hobnob with the real PT/UDD people can have valid insights and opinions. The Reds I got to know in 2010, as far as I know now, have all but one drifted back into relative apathy, not because of the Yellows or the RTA, but because they, as little people far removed from the circles where real awareness is generated, could see that PT was not doing anything for them.
And parents of Thai kids like me who want to see changes in things like police corruption and educational malfeasance amounting to child abuse do not really care how your associates talk amongst themselves. The things we want done require institutional change, action not talk.
I’m not moaning, Nick. I am expressing my opinion.
If you know already that Thailand is not and has never been a democracy, maybe you would be willing to join with me in a campaign to stop the international media from constantly printing stories that suggest that this junta destroyed Thai democracy?
Or maybe that sort of accuracy is not important when what you are engaged in is propaganda and “black-and-white, either/or” oversimplification?
Democracy worship in Thailand
Democracy in Thailand needs and turns on a way of life and relations which Thainess as imposed , Monarchy Nation and Religion, the un-holy trinity, is a huge obstacle. Thais need untying from Thainess if they are to become citizens and not subjects
Royal resilience and Thai dictatorship
Great picture of HM Numero Uno – one lens of his shades tastefully darker than the other. It’s a shame this fine graphic wasn’t credited. Visually a major improvement over the real McCoy.
Still not blocked at 12.41pm 16 June local Thai time
Royal resilience and Thai dictatorship
Too many Western Thai experts unintentionally reproduce aspects of myths about the king and not the ignoble, base and impure aspects of the reality. The monarchy is used to rule and dominate by Sino Thai rulers military might not ‘ network monarchy’