Good stuff Emily and Matt. Thai academia is celebrity focused and they destroy all those they disagree with. More articles and challenges like this are needed!
So much criticism in the responses here. New Mandala provides a forum for healthy debate. Let’s have a debate. I find the article interesting, thought provoking and intelligently controversial. It rattles a few feathers because people know aspects of this article are correct. We need more discussions like this, not less. Academia on and in Thailand has become agressive to criticism, as demonstrated in some of the responses here.
This article would be more acceptable if it did not argue that democracy has been elevated to a cult status.
Have to agree – and there’s something very troubling about a piece that contains variants of “democracy worship” eight times, “democracy cult” five times and this with almost no qualification. Perhaps not intentionally but this overused terminology inevitably comes across as pejorative, more than a little patronising and, ironically enough (given the authors’ premise), disappointingly simplistic.
Come on, JP, this piece dictates to readers what they “need” to do. It then offers a sweeping statement about “tackling” the “larger issues”. But its authors do not deign to tell us by what means those issues are to be tackled. The snideness of the authors’ putting “return” in quotation marks really says it all. It reflects their failure to understand that government reflective of peaceful contestation among and participation is always and everywhere an imperfect business (Just look at the mess that is the United Kingdom today) and that for some increasing levels of peaceful contestation and of participation in Thai politics seemed to serve the country very well. Again, Thailand and its study have history. New Mandala needs to do better than this.
I’m not a regular visitor here but I had thought that this was the case. Sadly, either the website has changed dramatically or I am mis-remembering it.
The problem is that in Thailand ‘democracy’ has two vastly different meanings. The first one is called ‘Thai-style Democracy’ or ‘Democracy with the King as Head of State’. In this kind op democracy the ‘good people’ run the show, all others are happy recipients of their goodness and ability. Unity, order, harmony and conformity are neccesary (as in the Thai word р╕кр╕▓р╕бр╕▒р╕Др╕Др╕╡).Sarit, Prem and Prayut are exponents of this vision.The draft constitution shows many points from this conviction.
The second meaning is close to the western one, р╕Ыр╕гр╕░р╕Кр╕▓р╕Шр╕┤р╕Ыр╣Др╕Х Prachathipatai in which pracha means people and (a)thipatai power, People’s Power. Pridi, Chuan Leekpai, Yingluck and many others are in favour of this meaning. Diversity, discussion and compromise come to mind.
This two contrary visions can not be reconciled. The people of Thailand has to choose, otherwise a revolution will be inevitable.
Emily has lived in Thailand for many years studying in Bangkok I believe. I think she is on to something here. Many English postings from Thais and foreigners alike post democracy related articles often. The article does not state ‘all academics’. Dan R it sounds as if you have all the answers and condemn those who don’t speak Thai or have not spent years in Thailand. This article is welcomed, it does not have to be correct or ‘the’ answer, it is academia, it is where debate and conversation is welcomed. I look forward to reading an article from you Dan R.
“Democracy is constantly overly simplified by academics online.”
Ajarn Kasian is one of the more prolific pro-democracy academics on Facebook (at least as far as I know). His most recent posts have all been to pdfs of papers and PhD theses related to Thai politics and history, all of which can be downloaded and read at one’s leisure. I’m not sure how intellectually sophisticated you expect Facebook to be but that hardly seems like something for which he can reasonably be criticized.
What is going on at New Mandala? How are pieces like this making it onto the site? Do the authors of this piece really not know that both Thailand and the analysis of Thailand actually have histories? That networks and relationships in Thai society have been the subject of study? That this piece is simply offensive to many Thais who have made sacrifices for many decades to combat the forces of reaction and repression in their country?
You have to know Thai to know what is discussed in academic circles, since that’s the language in which the discussions are had. If you believe, as the authors do, that there is no discussion of the ‘roadblocks to democracy’ etc., you presumably have a very, very deep familiarity with all of this. Someone who just arrived here 5 months ago and who, as I said, seems to have no background in the subject would be unlikely to have that familiarity. And if he doesn’t have that familiarity, this kind of stuff should be reserved for the expat forums.
The article is also poor in another dimension. Calling something a religion can, sometimes, shed interesting light on it. The way nationalisms function, for example, can fruitfully be analysed in religious terms. But most of the time, it’s a meaninglessly dismissive term. That seems to be the case here. Calling the democracy movement (or a part of it) a ‘cult’ has precisely zero analytic potential and works only as an exceptionally poor rhetorical device to say ‘nothing to see here’ or ‘stupid people with stupid ideas’. Again, time is short in life and I’ve read this kind of thing enough times already not to need to re-read it here.
Perhaps I’m not the intended audience, but I can see exactly nothing useful, interesting, worthwhile, novel, intelligent or daring in this piece. Controversial, perhaps, but only to the extent that I find the entire article offensive.
About the only thing I use Facebook for is to follow Thai politics. I’m a regular reader of posts by Ajarns Pitch, Kasian, Pavin, Somasak, Niti and others, as they come up. I’ve yet to notice that any of these people don’t understand democracy or need the advice offered in this article.
Bit personal Dan Dan. Good thought provoking piece. Good on NM for publishing it. Democracy, democracy, democracy – the word adored in Thailand and Malaysia, yet little understood.
Dan knowing one of the authors, I can positively say he knows a fair bit about Thai politics. The article is daring and controversial, and the assessment draws on numerous truths. I would not say I agree with all points, however it is an important discussion. There is talk in Thailand about these road blocks, but from where I sit in Bangkok, these talks are lacking. I think those of us who are interested in or follow Thai politics, know there is a lot of talk about democracy and very few solutions. Democracy is constantly overly simplified by academics online. I am not sure why you have to ‘know Thai’ to have opinions? It is a part of a healthy discussion on the issue and articles like this should be welcomed. Conversation is important Dan – there are not single truths with this issue.
Having looked at Mat Carney’s Facebook page, I see he does read Thai, and is actually a follower of р╕Юр╕ер╣Ар╕бр╕╖р╕нр╕Зр╣Вр╕Хр╣Йр╕Бр╕ер╕▒р╕Ъ. So, will he be telling those guys that they’ve all got the wrong end of the stick, because the white guy from Australia knows what’s what, I wonder. Perhaps a trip to Khon Kaen is in order so that р╕Фр╕▓р╕зр╕Фр╕┤р╕Щ can get the news that their actions, rather being – as a great many people think – incredibly brave, are actually ‘demonstrating the impracticality of democracy’.
Chutzpah doesn’t really begin to describe it, does it.
This article has been written two people. One is a person who has been in the country for 5 months and, as far as can be gleaned from his LinkedIn profile, he lacks any specialist knowledge of or background in Thai politics. The other is an intern/student. Bearing that in mind, what are we to make of assertions such as “It would do the democracy argument well if attention was redirected to tackling some of the larger issues that act as roadblocks to democracy.” Really? The authors have such deep familiarity with the topic that they can comfortably assert this (There’s no discussion of ‘roadblocks to democracy’ in thailand? Are you sure about that?) but, mysteriously, they can’t actually offer up any examples of these academics who ‘worship’ democracy and they can’t even cut and paste a few choice quotations from their Facebook feeds. Great stuff.
The whole article reeks of ignorance and uninformed assumptions – can either of the two authors even read Thai? And if they can, do they? I have serious doubts about that. I’m sorry to say this but this article would be more at home on Thaivisa. It is rude, patronizing, offensive nonsense. And it’s not even well written. Really, this is an atrocious article and I can’t imagine why anyone thought it was of publishable quality. Any more articles this dire and I’m afraid your RSS feed goes in the bin.
I usually comment here under one or another pseudonym, but there is no point this time, as the “editor of New Mandala” will be able to see my e-mail address when I post this message.
Messrs Walker and Farrelly need to take James Giggacher to the wood-shed, and soon. He needs to understand that a certain proportion of New Mandala’s readers think about Thailand and other parts of SE Asia with some sophistication, knowledge and hard-won expertise. What this means is that pieces like this one do a great disservice to New Mandala and its equally hard-won reputation.
Most recruits/volunteers are from wealthy educated entitled disillusioned zealot Muslim from countries with western Ideas. Do not fit the Muslim kalars in Yakhine MO.
Besides the Jungle of Myanmar is not the Middle East and the Tamadaw is not constrained by any protocols that the west hold dear.
How do you actually know if I have or haven’t been to a Nazi consentration camp? I am to young to have been a guest of the Nazis and have been to see Belsen.
Leaving the rascist Israel aside and any other quotes you may wish to say I will only mention the crisis of the Rohingya.
Absolutely no country belongs to the people who live on the land.
Every religion has extremists who would rather kill than live next door to someone of a different faith.
The land in BURMA where the Rohingya live is believed to have minerals underneath it. The viscious Burmese army wants that land and fosters the total aggression through their proxies to get that land whatever the human cost.
If you had an ounce of humanity in your body you would actually support the plight of the Rohingya and all other people around the world who are in the same position regardless of religion.
Perhaps you need a baton instead; it is Buddhist Bamar women that are being raped. Where are the camps, the buried ? The buried were reported in southern Thailand and the Malaysian border, not in Myanmar. Unlike Germany, in 1943, with no opposition around to record events, initially not believed, there are thousands and thousands of NGO and UN workers in Rakhine State; strange for an “oppressive anti-Muslim government” isn’t it ? We are festooned with photos on Yahoo from Reuters, Al-Jazeera and Huffington Post (all unsympathetic to Naypyidaw) showing healthy Rohingya women in niqabs and burqas (that’s funny, I thought they were MODERATE Shaf’i Sunni Muslims, who’s women don’t wear niqabs and burqas, so why now then ?). But, when adding AP, AFP, CNN, Salon, Slate and even the Guardian, no “death camps”, no beaten men or raped women (except the Bamar women), and all the Bengali speaking Bangladeshi “Rohingya” telling non-Muslims they are Burmese, and telling Muslims they are Bangladeshi Muslims and don’t WANT to go back to Myanmar, “because we don’t like it there, we are Muslims”. Gee, I guess that’s why they would rather be in Malaysia and Indonesia. So would Myanmar, and they are right to want them, either in Bangladesh or anywhere, but not in Myanmar.
How many generations will it take you and your useful nimrods to realize the truth ? For your information, I saw death camps and I had relatives die in them; I see you did not. Your whistle is stuck, along with the cranium.
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Democracy worship in Thailand
Good stuff Emily and Matt. Thai academia is celebrity focused and they destroy all those they disagree with. More articles and challenges like this are needed!
Democracy worship in Thailand
So much criticism in the responses here. New Mandala provides a forum for healthy debate. Let’s have a debate. I find the article interesting, thought provoking and intelligently controversial. It rattles a few feathers because people know aspects of this article are correct. We need more discussions like this, not less. Academia on and in Thailand has become agressive to criticism, as demonstrated in some of the responses here.
Democracy worship in Thailand
This article would be more acceptable if it did not argue that democracy has been elevated to a cult status.
Have to agree – and there’s something very troubling about a piece that contains variants of “democracy worship” eight times, “democracy cult” five times and this with almost no qualification. Perhaps not intentionally but this overused terminology inevitably comes across as pejorative, more than a little patronising and, ironically enough (given the authors’ premise), disappointingly simplistic.
Democracy worship in Thailand
Come on, JP, this piece dictates to readers what they “need” to do. It then offers a sweeping statement about “tackling” the “larger issues”. But its authors do not deign to tell us by what means those issues are to be tackled. The snideness of the authors’ putting “return” in quotation marks really says it all. It reflects their failure to understand that government reflective of peaceful contestation among and participation is always and everywhere an imperfect business (Just look at the mess that is the United Kingdom today) and that for some increasing levels of peaceful contestation and of participation in Thai politics seemed to serve the country very well. Again, Thailand and its study have history. New Mandala needs to do better than this.
Democracy worship in Thailand
“it is academia”
I’m not a regular visitor here but I had thought that this was the case. Sadly, either the website has changed dramatically or I am mis-remembering it.
Democracy worship in Thailand
The problem is that in Thailand ‘democracy’ has two vastly different meanings. The first one is called ‘Thai-style Democracy’ or ‘Democracy with the King as Head of State’. In this kind op democracy the ‘good people’ run the show, all others are happy recipients of their goodness and ability. Unity, order, harmony and conformity are neccesary (as in the Thai word р╕кр╕▓р╕бр╕▒р╕Др╕Др╕╡).Sarit, Prem and Prayut are exponents of this vision.The draft constitution shows many points from this conviction.
The second meaning is close to the western one, р╕Ыр╕гр╕░р╕Кр╕▓р╕Шр╕┤р╕Ыр╣Др╕Х Prachathipatai in which pracha means people and (a)thipatai power, People’s Power. Pridi, Chuan Leekpai, Yingluck and many others are in favour of this meaning. Diversity, discussion and compromise come to mind.
This two contrary visions can not be reconciled. The people of Thailand has to choose, otherwise a revolution will be inevitable.
Democracy worship in Thailand
Emily has lived in Thailand for many years studying in Bangkok I believe. I think she is on to something here. Many English postings from Thais and foreigners alike post democracy related articles often. The article does not state ‘all academics’. Dan R it sounds as if you have all the answers and condemn those who don’t speak Thai or have not spent years in Thailand. This article is welcomed, it does not have to be correct or ‘the’ answer, it is academia, it is where debate and conversation is welcomed. I look forward to reading an article from you Dan R.
Democracy worship in Thailand
“Democracy is constantly overly simplified by academics online.”
Ajarn Kasian is one of the more prolific pro-democracy academics on Facebook (at least as far as I know). His most recent posts have all been to pdfs of papers and PhD theses related to Thai politics and history, all of which can be downloaded and read at one’s leisure. I’m not sure how intellectually sophisticated you expect Facebook to be but that hardly seems like something for which he can reasonably be criticized.
Democracy worship in Thailand
What is going on at New Mandala? How are pieces like this making it onto the site? Do the authors of this piece really not know that both Thailand and the analysis of Thailand actually have histories? That networks and relationships in Thai society have been the subject of study? That this piece is simply offensive to many Thais who have made sacrifices for many decades to combat the forces of reaction and repression in their country?
Democracy worship in Thailand
There are 100’s Dan. It is more the over appreciation of democracy that is the problem…
Democracy worship in Thailand
You have to know Thai to know what is discussed in academic circles, since that’s the language in which the discussions are had. If you believe, as the authors do, that there is no discussion of the ‘roadblocks to democracy’ etc., you presumably have a very, very deep familiarity with all of this. Someone who just arrived here 5 months ago and who, as I said, seems to have no background in the subject would be unlikely to have that familiarity. And if he doesn’t have that familiarity, this kind of stuff should be reserved for the expat forums.
The article is also poor in another dimension. Calling something a religion can, sometimes, shed interesting light on it. The way nationalisms function, for example, can fruitfully be analysed in religious terms. But most of the time, it’s a meaninglessly dismissive term. That seems to be the case here. Calling the democracy movement (or a part of it) a ‘cult’ has precisely zero analytic potential and works only as an exceptionally poor rhetorical device to say ‘nothing to see here’ or ‘stupid people with stupid ideas’. Again, time is short in life and I’ve read this kind of thing enough times already not to need to re-read it here.
Perhaps I’m not the intended audience, but I can see exactly nothing useful, interesting, worthwhile, novel, intelligent or daring in this piece. Controversial, perhaps, but only to the extent that I find the entire article offensive.
Democracy worship in Thailand
About the only thing I use Facebook for is to follow Thai politics. I’m a regular reader of posts by Ajarns Pitch, Kasian, Pavin, Somasak, Niti and others, as they come up. I’ve yet to notice that any of these people don’t understand democracy or need the advice offered in this article.
Democracy worship in Thailand
Bit personal Dan Dan. Good thought provoking piece. Good on NM for publishing it. Democracy, democracy, democracy – the word adored in Thailand and Malaysia, yet little understood.
Democracy worship in Thailand
Dan knowing one of the authors, I can positively say he knows a fair bit about Thai politics. The article is daring and controversial, and the assessment draws on numerous truths. I would not say I agree with all points, however it is an important discussion. There is talk in Thailand about these road blocks, but from where I sit in Bangkok, these talks are lacking. I think those of us who are interested in or follow Thai politics, know there is a lot of talk about democracy and very few solutions. Democracy is constantly overly simplified by academics online. I am not sure why you have to ‘know Thai’ to have opinions? It is a part of a healthy discussion on the issue and articles like this should be welcomed. Conversation is important Dan – there are not single truths with this issue.
Democracy worship in Thailand
Having looked at Mat Carney’s Facebook page, I see he does read Thai, and is actually a follower of р╕Юр╕ер╣Ар╕бр╕╖р╕нр╕Зр╣Вр╕Хр╣Йр╕Бр╕ер╕▒р╕Ъ. So, will he be telling those guys that they’ve all got the wrong end of the stick, because the white guy from Australia knows what’s what, I wonder. Perhaps a trip to Khon Kaen is in order so that р╕Фр╕▓р╕зр╕Фр╕┤р╕Щ can get the news that their actions, rather being – as a great many people think – incredibly brave, are actually ‘demonstrating the impracticality of democracy’.
Chutzpah doesn’t really begin to describe it, does it.
Democracy worship in Thailand
This article has been written two people. One is a person who has been in the country for 5 months and, as far as can be gleaned from his LinkedIn profile, he lacks any specialist knowledge of or background in Thai politics. The other is an intern/student. Bearing that in mind, what are we to make of assertions such as “It would do the democracy argument well if attention was redirected to tackling some of the larger issues that act as roadblocks to democracy.” Really? The authors have such deep familiarity with the topic that they can comfortably assert this (There’s no discussion of ‘roadblocks to democracy’ in thailand? Are you sure about that?) but, mysteriously, they can’t actually offer up any examples of these academics who ‘worship’ democracy and they can’t even cut and paste a few choice quotations from their Facebook feeds. Great stuff.
The whole article reeks of ignorance and uninformed assumptions – can either of the two authors even read Thai? And if they can, do they? I have serious doubts about that. I’m sorry to say this but this article would be more at home on Thaivisa. It is rude, patronizing, offensive nonsense. And it’s not even well written. Really, this is an atrocious article and I can’t imagine why anyone thought it was of publishable quality. Any more articles this dire and I’m afraid your RSS feed goes in the bin.
Rice, repression and rule by force
I usually comment here under one or another pseudonym, but there is no point this time, as the “editor of New Mandala” will be able to see my e-mail address when I post this message.
Messrs Walker and Farrelly need to take James Giggacher to the wood-shed, and soon. He needs to understand that a certain proportion of New Mandala’s readers think about Thailand and other parts of SE Asia with some sophistication, knowledge and hard-won expertise. What this means is that pieces like this one do a great disservice to New Mandala and its equally hard-won reputation.
Rohingya crisis: nothing from nothing
Most recruits/volunteers are from wealthy educated entitled disillusioned zealot Muslim from countries with western Ideas. Do not fit the Muslim kalars in Yakhine MO.
Besides the Jungle of Myanmar is not the Middle East and the Tamadaw is not constrained by any protocols that the west hold dear.
PM Najib remarks on Rohingya
How do you actually know if I have or haven’t been to a Nazi consentration camp? I am to young to have been a guest of the Nazis and have been to see Belsen.
Leaving the rascist Israel aside and any other quotes you may wish to say I will only mention the crisis of the Rohingya.
Absolutely no country belongs to the people who live on the land.
Every religion has extremists who would rather kill than live next door to someone of a different faith.
The land in BURMA where the Rohingya live is believed to have minerals underneath it. The viscious Burmese army wants that land and fosters the total aggression through their proxies to get that land whatever the human cost.
If you had an ounce of humanity in your body you would actually support the plight of the Rohingya and all other people around the world who are in the same position regardless of religion.
PM Najib remarks on Rohingya
Perhaps you need a baton instead; it is Buddhist Bamar women that are being raped. Where are the camps, the buried ? The buried were reported in southern Thailand and the Malaysian border, not in Myanmar. Unlike Germany, in 1943, with no opposition around to record events, initially not believed, there are thousands and thousands of NGO and UN workers in Rakhine State; strange for an “oppressive anti-Muslim government” isn’t it ? We are festooned with photos on Yahoo from Reuters, Al-Jazeera and Huffington Post (all unsympathetic to Naypyidaw) showing healthy Rohingya women in niqabs and burqas (that’s funny, I thought they were MODERATE Shaf’i Sunni Muslims, who’s women don’t wear niqabs and burqas, so why now then ?). But, when adding AP, AFP, CNN, Salon, Slate and even the Guardian, no “death camps”, no beaten men or raped women (except the Bamar women), and all the Bengali speaking Bangladeshi “Rohingya” telling non-Muslims they are Burmese, and telling Muslims they are Bangladeshi Muslims and don’t WANT to go back to Myanmar, “because we don’t like it there, we are Muslims”. Gee, I guess that’s why they would rather be in Malaysia and Indonesia. So would Myanmar, and they are right to want them, either in Bangladesh or anywhere, but not in Myanmar.
How many generations will it take you and your useful nimrods to realize the truth ? For your information, I saw death camps and I had relatives die in them; I see you did not. Your whistle is stuck, along with the cranium.