The latest boat turned back to Rote had at least one Rohingya, so not entirely offtopic:
For enthusiasts of people smuggling detail,which sadly has never included the Australian media, there are some fine anomalies emerging in Indon press reports.
Timex reports that one of the 2 boats given to the Floating Dead [sorry bad cultural reference] was called ‘Jasmin.’ Strange, as Jasmin is the name of the smuggler who organised this particular voyage. Jasmin’s a Bajo from Wanci/Binongko who resides in Jakarta. Either OSB is displaying a hitherto unrevealed sense of humour, or the Timex journo has garbled what she/he has been told. I’m opting for the latter explanation.
A Kompas report reveals that the skipper and another crew escaped in a speedboat. Quelle surprise! One hopes that this isn’t the same speedboat that OSB gave smuggling crew when turned back to Rote in May last year, subsequently held on terra firma by the local LANAL until recently, when they put it back in the water for reasons best known to themselves. Maybe they went fishing, or something.
What advantage could there possibly be in using this bibliography over Michael Charney’s more comprehensive one.
This bibliography seems to exclude, for example, everything from the SOAS Bulletin of Burma Research (SBBR) thus perpetuating the common practice in Burma Studies of selective citation of only in-group members of one’s academic clique, not exactly a state-of-the-art scholarly practice.
the term stereo type is justified due to your prejudice and preemptive judgments . When somebody talks against IsraelI expansionim in the middle east which automatically qualifies that person to be anti semite or a radical islamist by your behavioralist perspective. it’s okay that burma kicks out the Rohingyas now perhaps due to their ethnicity/religion then again a new perception alteration will be raised over burma’s democracy/human rights typical western liberal accusations….. victims comply otherwise become the accused/criminals. force in or kick out.
Putting “return” in quotation marks is the single most significant element of the article. All the rest is just gloss on what those quotes intend.
Democracy, which is always and only shorthand for liberal-democracy in these scurrilous threads on NM, has never taken root in Thailand.
Sovereignty in Thailand has never rested anywhere outside the elite/RTA combination as it has shifted throughout modern Thai history.
Paper constitutions in Thailand have never meant anything to the realities of power in Thailand. They have never done more than provide a kind of choreography for the song and dance that is “democracy” in Thailand.
Both Thailand and Thai Studies have a history. Fancy that. And one element they both share has been a tendency to avoid discussing realities, preferring instead to hew to some ideological line.
At this time, many people in Thai Studies are focused on democratic issues. 12 years ago, the threat to democracy in the dominant view was Thaksin. Now the threat to democracy is the people who won’t let him run the country from a hotel room in Dubai through his sister.
It has been said again and again but means nothing to the foaming-mouth “dogs of democracy” on NM: elections do not equal democracy.
Anyone who supports the return of elected government to provide a face for the sovereign RTA, the corrupt courts, the mini-fiefdoms known as government ministries, in other words for the status quo, is not advocating democracy. They are calling for electoralism to replace it with a facade that means nothing to how the people of Thailand will relate to their state apparatus.
Bangladeshi interlopers misidentified as some non-existent name, “Rohingya”, will be repatriated, whether it is done by President Thein Sein or President Suu Kyi. In return, Myanmar can take repressed and maltreated Hindus, Christians and Hill Tribes from intolerant Bangladesh, where arguments over chairs in mosques, are enough to lead to bloodshed. Myanmar, rightly, wants no part of that Islamic extremism. U Nu, back in 1960, watched as Egyptian Henchman Nasser promoted both “Socialism” and the Muslim Brotherhood and saw, at first glance, what radical Islam could potentially do to Buddhist nations. While Ne Win eventually corrupted U Nu’s Burmese Socialism, radical Islam had yet to become the global threat that it is now. Myanmar’s position is just and it is smart.
“A multicultural society premised on the inclusion of dozens of major ethnic groups” I think you meant exclusion surely! How is the dominance of one ethnic group Burman/Myanmar ethnic group , which acts as a Buddhist normative standard to judge the national identity and belonging of others, multicultural? More like multiracist exclusion from governance and denial of regional autonomy promised and never delivered 60 years ago?
I am also 105 % in agreement with Plan B. The only part I would defend Mat Dillon is that his “City of Ghosts” was a pretty good movie. Anderson has no conception of death camps. When my uncle was interned in one POW camp, he would augment the daily rice with smuggled leeches, rich in protein. These Bangladeshi “Rohingya” eat three times a day and aren’t tortured 10 times a day. As for the possible rapes in Kelantan or Betong at the Malaysian-Thai border, ask the Malay officers overseeing the Bangladeshis who moved there. This has nothing to do with Bamar people in Myanmar, who themselves are subjected (females) to rape by overzealous Muslim Bangladeshis in Rakhine, used to raping virgins, at will, back in Bangladesh. I noticed recently that Bangladesh has banned chairs in mosques and is becoming increasingly Wahhabist in Islamic outlook. Why should Myanmar be Islamized by Bangladeshi extremists, possibly terrorists ?
Does Myanmar proselytize Buddhism to any Muslim anywhere on Planet Earth ? Do any Buddhists proselytize at the point of a sword ? Hardly.
The “Rohingya” get treatment from the Press, that only Hamas and Abbas can dream of. “Poor Islamic refugees mistreated and denied human rights..” Oh wait, I forgot, that’s Sudan and Syria…..
Didn’t know you had to speak Thai, had lived in Thailand for years, and have a Thai centred LinkedIn profile Dan. You perfectly sum up all that’s wrong with those who comment on issues in Thailand. You don’t let anyone else have a go. I see you are ‘retired’ Dan – perhaps that gives you the right to know it all and be rude? Can we all see what you write on? Simple article highlighting some good points from two individuals who obviously know Thailand well…
That’ll be the day. Witness what’s happening with the Kokang, an ethnic Han Chinese conclave established by the Yang clan, followers of the exiled Ming Emperor, in Eastern Burma later granted a substate by the British colonial government in 1947 for services rendered against the Japanese, and also enjoying a self-administered special region under the 2008 Constitution. They were first used by Ne Win against the Communist Party of Burma, and then it was the CPB’s turn to use them against Ne Win to greater effect only to mutiny against the Burmese communist leadership and make a ceasefire deal with Khin Nyunt until it broke down in 2009 when they were driven across the border into China. Hostilities renewed earlier this year. It would suit the government if the Rohingya embarked on a second Mujahid rebellion but instead they have wised up and played the victim this time round.
For once, I find myself in 110 % agreement with Moe Aung (though he may feel damned with faint praise; I leave that to him).
He is completely correct. And to those who once worshipped Daw Aung San Suu Kyi six months ago, and now trash her like she is some **** because she IS A BAMAR AND MYANMAR PATRIOT first, it is you who are the fool for thinking she wouldn’t put her nation’s interests first. Stupid na├пve Westerners.
All you bleeding hearts, go save some Sudanese children from Muslim rape and slaughter, and stop kvetching and obsessing about the fake illegal migratory “Rohingya” who are Bangladesh’s problem and the Ummah’s problem. Qatar has 10,000 X the GDP of Myanmar. Let Qatar pay to resettle them; after all, the Gulf is full of Bangladeshi workers already.
The land in BURMA where the Rohingya live, with minerals underneath it or no, unfortunately used to be the land where the Rakhine lived… before ethnic cleansing of the townships next to the Bangladeshi border by the immigrant Bengalis armed by the retreating British colonial masters happened during WW2 and the creeping Bengalisation ever since . The rest as they say is history.
Territorial claim and what’s even more galling prior historic settlement claim have been made by their leaders which the non-Muslim West as well as the rest of the Muslim world just swallowed hook, line and sinker. That is no basis acceptable to any Bamar or Rakhine worth his salt in resolving a “humanitarian crisis” that the whole complicated mess it has turned into.
Just don’t expect Bangladesh’s human exports from its slow release demographic time bomb to be welcome in neighbouring Buddhist lands.
The Umma, Najib included, should embrace its own uncontrolled population and drop its aspirations to global domination coveting neighbouring lands, east and west, which in practice is what’s been going on with Bangladesh’s millions spilling over its borders.
Likewise the West should get off its moral high horse when it is struggling to put its own house in order over quotas for illegal/irregular migrants across the Mediterranean and regarding human trafficking. On the contrary a major part of the problem created by its iniquitous and relentless capitalist globalisation compounded by its proxy wars as well as direct aggression rather than posturing to be part of the solution.
At last something against the norm! Some Thai academics won’t like this post as it hits many truths. The words cult and worship work well and it was generally well written. So many Thai academics are worshipped and if they mention the D word, people smile with glory. Don’t get so offended folk, it’s conversation, join! Good read! Glad NM posted it!
Three cheers to Emily and Mat for not letting the democracy bullies call you names (e.g. fascist) for questioning things a little, the way scholars, journalists, historians and teachers in general are supposed to do 🙂
For the “larger issues” that need to be “tackled” just pick up a newspaper and view the hundreds of issues everyday that Thai Studies academics hardly even touch on or address, “police reform” being a major one with two articles devoted to it this week and a continuous stream of articles about police that prove why reform is sorely needed.
Believe me, if people at academic institutions do not attend to these issues, not one will. The pressure on digital journalists nowadays is to publish social media maximizing garbage.
Thailand is going through the same battle between conservative and liberal ideals that have taken or are taking place everywhere in the world. In the West the liberal side one won, and in the Middle East the conservative side. In Thailand, the conservative side has currently managed to get ahead, but let’s see for how long that will last.
Goodness. Comments here suck! Yes, the article is simplistic for some of us on here who are deep within Thai political studies, however to the majority of the readership this article provides a good and interesting analysis. A few examples within the article would have been good however we all know what the author is referring too. Some language is strong and if I was going to write it I would tone it down, however I think the authors deserve credit as it is gutsy to write a paper that criticises ‘us’. I do think there is too much focus on democracy and not enough time is spent on understanding ‘why’. Why does the article need to look at history and some of the other suggestions? It is a short and basic paper that gets us thinking and arguing…Come on scholars!
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PM Najib remarks on Rohingya
Peter Cohen: I can’t figure out if you work for 969 ….or reclaim Australia.
Rohingya stalemate tests Myanmar
The latest boat turned back to Rote had at least one Rohingya, so not entirely offtopic:
For enthusiasts of people smuggling detail,which sadly has never included the Australian media, there are some fine anomalies emerging in Indon press reports.
Timex reports that one of the 2 boats given to the Floating Dead [sorry bad cultural reference] was called ‘Jasmin.’ Strange, as Jasmin is the name of the smuggler who organised this particular voyage. Jasmin’s a Bajo from Wanci/Binongko who resides in Jakarta. Either OSB is displaying a hitherto unrevealed sense of humour, or the Timex journo has garbled what she/he has been told. I’m opting for the latter explanation.
http://www.timorexpress.com/kupang-metro/australia-suruh-65-imigran-berlayar-ke-indonesia
A Kompas report reveals that the skipper and another crew escaped in a speedboat. Quelle surprise! One hopes that this isn’t the same speedboat that OSB gave smuggling crew when turned back to Rote in May last year, subsequently held on terra firma by the local LANAL until recently, when they put it back in the water for reasons best known to themselves. Maybe they went fishing, or something.
http://regional.kompas.com/read/2015/06/02/22143891/Imigran.Gelap.Diberi.Uang.dan.Kapal.oleh.Tentara.Australia
A must read on Myanmar
What advantage could there possibly be in using this bibliography over Michael Charney’s more comprehensive one.
This bibliography seems to exclude, for example, everything from the SOAS Bulletin of Burma Research (SBBR) thus perpetuating the common practice in Burma Studies of selective citation of only in-group members of one’s academic clique, not exactly a state-of-the-art scholarly practice.
Islam and the state in Myanmar
the term stereo type is justified due to your prejudice and preemptive judgments . When somebody talks against IsraelI expansionim in the middle east which automatically qualifies that person to be anti semite or a radical islamist by your behavioralist perspective. it’s okay that burma kicks out the Rohingyas now perhaps due to their ethnicity/religion then again a new perception alteration will be raised over burma’s democracy/human rights typical western liberal accusations….. victims comply otherwise become the accused/criminals. force in or kick out.
Democracy worship in Thailand
Putting “return” in quotation marks is the single most significant element of the article. All the rest is just gloss on what those quotes intend.
Democracy, which is always and only shorthand for liberal-democracy in these scurrilous threads on NM, has never taken root in Thailand.
Sovereignty in Thailand has never rested anywhere outside the elite/RTA combination as it has shifted throughout modern Thai history.
Paper constitutions in Thailand have never meant anything to the realities of power in Thailand. They have never done more than provide a kind of choreography for the song and dance that is “democracy” in Thailand.
Both Thailand and Thai Studies have a history. Fancy that. And one element they both share has been a tendency to avoid discussing realities, preferring instead to hew to some ideological line.
At this time, many people in Thai Studies are focused on democratic issues. 12 years ago, the threat to democracy in the dominant view was Thaksin. Now the threat to democracy is the people who won’t let him run the country from a hotel room in Dubai through his sister.
It has been said again and again but means nothing to the foaming-mouth “dogs of democracy” on NM: elections do not equal democracy.
Anyone who supports the return of elected government to provide a face for the sovereign RTA, the corrupt courts, the mini-fiefdoms known as government ministries, in other words for the status quo, is not advocating democracy. They are calling for electoralism to replace it with a facade that means nothing to how the people of Thailand will relate to their state apparatus.
Now… foam away. I’m sure I am a fascist.
Democracy worship in Thailand
Democracy cult! hahah As if this claim is not pure grade d psychological projection straight from that, uhum, other…ah…whatchacallit?
…cult.
Rohingya stalemate tests Myanmar
Bangladeshi interlopers misidentified as some non-existent name, “Rohingya”, will be repatriated, whether it is done by President Thein Sein or President Suu Kyi. In return, Myanmar can take repressed and maltreated Hindus, Christians and Hill Tribes from intolerant Bangladesh, where arguments over chairs in mosques, are enough to lead to bloodshed. Myanmar, rightly, wants no part of that Islamic extremism. U Nu, back in 1960, watched as Egyptian Henchman Nasser promoted both “Socialism” and the Muslim Brotherhood and saw, at first glance, what radical Islam could potentially do to Buddhist nations. While Ne Win eventually corrupted U Nu’s Burmese Socialism, radical Islam had yet to become the global threat that it is now. Myanmar’s position is just and it is smart.
Rohingya stalemate tests Myanmar
“A multicultural society premised on the inclusion of dozens of major ethnic groups” I think you meant exclusion surely! How is the dominance of one ethnic group Burman/Myanmar ethnic group , which acts as a Buddhist normative standard to judge the national identity and belonging of others, multicultural? More like multiracist exclusion from governance and denial of regional autonomy promised and never delivered 60 years ago?
Democracy worship in Thailand
Platitudenous, pompous, patronising piece of *&^%!
Et tu, NM? I used to enjoy this website. Sold out to
elitist-paid shills, have they?
PM Najib remarks on Rohingya
I am also 105 % in agreement with Plan B. The only part I would defend Mat Dillon is that his “City of Ghosts” was a pretty good movie. Anderson has no conception of death camps. When my uncle was interned in one POW camp, he would augment the daily rice with smuggled leeches, rich in protein. These Bangladeshi “Rohingya” eat three times a day and aren’t tortured 10 times a day. As for the possible rapes in Kelantan or Betong at the Malaysian-Thai border, ask the Malay officers overseeing the Bangladeshis who moved there. This has nothing to do with Bamar people in Myanmar, who themselves are subjected (females) to rape by overzealous Muslim Bangladeshis in Rakhine, used to raping virgins, at will, back in Bangladesh. I noticed recently that Bangladesh has banned chairs in mosques and is becoming increasingly Wahhabist in Islamic outlook. Why should Myanmar be Islamized by Bangladeshi extremists, possibly terrorists ?
Does Myanmar proselytize Buddhism to any Muslim anywhere on Planet Earth ? Do any Buddhists proselytize at the point of a sword ? Hardly.
Rohingya as a regional conundrum
The “Rohingya” get treatment from the Press, that only Hamas and Abbas can dream of. “Poor Islamic refugees mistreated and denied human rights..” Oh wait, I forgot, that’s Sudan and Syria…..
Democracy worship in Thailand
Didn’t know you had to speak Thai, had lived in Thailand for years, and have a Thai centred LinkedIn profile Dan. You perfectly sum up all that’s wrong with those who comment on issues in Thailand. You don’t let anyone else have a go. I see you are ‘retired’ Dan – perhaps that gives you the right to know it all and be rude? Can we all see what you write on? Simple article highlighting some good points from two individuals who obviously know Thailand well…
Rohingya as a regional conundrum
That’ll be the day. Witness what’s happening with the Kokang, an ethnic Han Chinese conclave established by the Yang clan, followers of the exiled Ming Emperor, in Eastern Burma later granted a substate by the British colonial government in 1947 for services rendered against the Japanese, and also enjoying a self-administered special region under the 2008 Constitution. They were first used by Ne Win against the Communist Party of Burma, and then it was the CPB’s turn to use them against Ne Win to greater effect only to mutiny against the Burmese communist leadership and make a ceasefire deal with Khin Nyunt until it broke down in 2009 when they were driven across the border into China. Hostilities renewed earlier this year. It would suit the government if the Rohingya embarked on a second Mujahid rebellion but instead they have wised up and played the victim this time round.
PM Najib remarks on Rohingya
Hmm
“death camps”!
These are UNHRC approved regular red cross certified camps. I will assure you it is better than the Thai Camps for the Karen.
For most these camp are better than what they ever have had.
The fact that most photos are super staged say it all.
Besides Matt Dillon badly need a PR boost for it career.
PM Najib remarks on Rohingya
For once, I find myself in 110 % agreement with Moe Aung (though he may feel damned with faint praise; I leave that to him).
He is completely correct. And to those who once worshipped Daw Aung San Suu Kyi six months ago, and now trash her like she is some **** because she IS A BAMAR AND MYANMAR PATRIOT first, it is you who are the fool for thinking she wouldn’t put her nation’s interests first. Stupid na├пve Westerners.
All you bleeding hearts, go save some Sudanese children from Muslim rape and slaughter, and stop kvetching and obsessing about the fake illegal migratory “Rohingya” who are Bangladesh’s problem and the Ummah’s problem. Qatar has 10,000 X the GDP of Myanmar. Let Qatar pay to resettle them; after all, the Gulf is full of Bangladeshi workers already.
PM Najib remarks on Rohingya
The land in BURMA where the Rohingya live, with minerals underneath it or no, unfortunately used to be the land where the Rakhine lived… before ethnic cleansing of the townships next to the Bangladeshi border by the immigrant Bengalis armed by the retreating British colonial masters happened during WW2 and the creeping Bengalisation ever since . The rest as they say is history.
Territorial claim and what’s even more galling prior historic settlement claim have been made by their leaders which the non-Muslim West as well as the rest of the Muslim world just swallowed hook, line and sinker. That is no basis acceptable to any Bamar or Rakhine worth his salt in resolving a “humanitarian crisis” that the whole complicated mess it has turned into.
Just don’t expect Bangladesh’s human exports from its slow release demographic time bomb to be welcome in neighbouring Buddhist lands.
The Umma, Najib included, should embrace its own uncontrolled population and drop its aspirations to global domination coveting neighbouring lands, east and west, which in practice is what’s been going on with Bangladesh’s millions spilling over its borders.
Likewise the West should get off its moral high horse when it is struggling to put its own house in order over quotas for illegal/irregular migrants across the Mediterranean and regarding human trafficking. On the contrary a major part of the problem created by its iniquitous and relentless capitalist globalisation compounded by its proxy wars as well as direct aggression rather than posturing to be part of the solution.
Democracy worship in Thailand
At last something against the norm! Some Thai academics won’t like this post as it hits many truths. The words cult and worship work well and it was generally well written. So many Thai academics are worshipped and if they mention the D word, people smile with glory. Don’t get so offended folk, it’s conversation, join! Good read! Glad NM posted it!
Democracy worship in Thailand
Three cheers to Emily and Mat for not letting the democracy bullies call you names (e.g. fascist) for questioning things a little, the way scholars, journalists, historians and teachers in general are supposed to do 🙂
For the “larger issues” that need to be “tackled” just pick up a newspaper and view the hundreds of issues everyday that Thai Studies academics hardly even touch on or address, “police reform” being a major one with two articles devoted to it this week and a continuous stream of articles about police that prove why reform is sorely needed.
Believe me, if people at academic institutions do not attend to these issues, not one will. The pressure on digital journalists nowadays is to publish social media maximizing garbage.
Keep up the good work 🙂
Democracy worship in Thailand
Thailand is going through the same battle between conservative and liberal ideals that have taken or are taking place everywhere in the world. In the West the liberal side one won, and in the Middle East the conservative side. In Thailand, the conservative side has currently managed to get ahead, but let’s see for how long that will last.
Democracy worship in Thailand
Goodness. Comments here suck! Yes, the article is simplistic for some of us on here who are deep within Thai political studies, however to the majority of the readership this article provides a good and interesting analysis. A few examples within the article would have been good however we all know what the author is referring too. Some language is strong and if I was going to write it I would tone it down, however I think the authors deserve credit as it is gutsy to write a paper that criticises ‘us’. I do think there is too much focus on democracy and not enough time is spent on understanding ‘why’. Why does the article need to look at history and some of the other suggestions? It is a short and basic paper that gets us thinking and arguing…Come on scholars!