I’m an Aussie. I disagree with the death penalty anywhere. But I think the overall Australian government and vocal people’s responses are spiced with sentimentality, nationalism, some arrogance, and double standards.
Indonesia’s laws specify the death penalty for certain drug offences. The Bali Nine knew that, took their chances, got caught. Had they not got caught they’d have enjoyed the profits and stood by while a bunch of Aussie kids and other consumers of cannabis did some damage, perhaps real harm, to their mental health. I’ll bet they wouldn’t have lost sleep over that. Get Indonesia to abolish the death penalty for sure. But the diplomatic pressure Australia has applied to the Indonesians reflects pure colonial style arrogance. It took the death penalty for 2 Aussie kids to motivate them to talk to the Indonesians publicly about this.
Secondly the Australian response has been about the 2 Aussies almost predominantly. Never mind the other nationalities being executed: they don’t count, they’re not Aussies. A true humanitarian appeal? Or a national appeal only which just so happens to appeal to many patriotic Aussies: looking after our boys. This Aussie government needed a boost in the polls after a series of gaffs by the PM, hard to ignore that right now.
And the last point: double standards. US troops and security specialists operate on Aussie soil. The U.S. is Australia’s biggest military ally. According to a current online source 13 people have been executed in the US in 2015 till April 15. If we are so against the death penalty where’s the Aussie government lobbying the Americans? No chance, wouldn’t be in our national interests to annoy the U.S.
Anton. No politicians ever are. Votes. All politicians are guilty til proven innocent.
SBY is one of the nastier types. He [and JK] had three innocent Catholics killed, purely for politics, to appease greater Islam before he killed the Bali perps [not all of them, just a sampler]. Votes. Smarter than Jokowi though. He first invited ONA to send an analyst to Poso so his newly appointed, corrupt, ex POLRI, Protestant Bupati could arrange a barrage of misinformation to divert from the guilt of the Protestant Church, individually and collectively. And others. Howard really wanted the Sari Club bombers to die – he was never going to lift a finger to help the innocents. Votes. Abbott was a Minister in that Gov. Did he listen to the advice of the Holy Father, who knew exactly what was taking place and had appealed for the mens’ lives, more than once? No. He didn’t.
The Indonesian Catholic Church has come a long way on this issue since discrediting themselves in 65. Personally, I’d encourage Cardinal Julius SJ to go public with the story of how his uncle, the manager of a Dutch owned factory, was executed by Republicans. It may just have more of an impact than counting the number of angels protecting the condemned and calling in the family paranormal for some Kejawen flying nightmares around Magelang. Hi Julius.
Indonesia has indeed made some great strides since 1998, but in some ways it has been going backward in more recent years. For example, the field of presidential candidates has narrowed at each election for the past decade. There were five candidates in 2004, three in 2009 and only two in 2014. For a country with such a large population but without a more or less rigid two-party system such as the USA has, this limiting of the range of candidates is very unfortunate. Let’s hope the new electoral legislation operating in 2019 will result in a broadening of the field of candidates.
As Jokowi reveals himself increasingly to be a moral and intellectual lightweight, it is becoming clear that the Indonesian people faced a true Hobson’s choice last year.
As for the Jokowi-Kalla duo, the president and vice-president seem as dysfunctional together as were Megawati and Hamzah Haz, perhaps Indonesia’s oddest couple, a dozen years ago. Kalla is unlikely to play the dynamising role that he performed for the slower-moving president who first chose him as his running-mate. Maybe he is too old, or maybe Jokowi thinks that he himself, to quote another inarticulate president, is the ‘decider’.
In another respect, the recent evolution of Indonesian politics has shown how hard it is to register ‘great strides’. Is there any party that has been set up since Indonesia returned to a democratic regime that can be held up as a model for its integrity, the competence and honesty of its representatives and its determination to resist being sucked into the corruption at the core of the political system?
There is a great deal of idealism and the spirit of self-sacrifice in the NGO sphere in Indonesia, for which the late Munir has been one of the most emblematic figures. But so little of these qualities needed for a healthy body politic survive in the arena of mainstream, representative politics.
Ansyaad Mbai is from Southeast Sulawesi, not Central Sulawesi. He is an orang Buton. I discussed Syawal Yasin with him, since Syawal is also a Butonese. He is an important jihadi who didn’t join JI. He was one of the first generation of Indonesians to train in Pakistan.
To confirm my recollection that Mbai had told me he was from Southeast Sulawesi, and lacking access as I do to classified Indonesian documents, I checked with that notorious open source data-bank, Wikipedia.
As you don’t know me, please do not make assumptions. I am well aware of the Lowy Institute and Mr Ward’s 40 or so years of Indonesian analysis. I never claimed Mr Ward, or anybody, was ignorant of Indonesia. I was speaking about highly specific acts of extremism and terrorism in Indonesia and their propagators, from an operational side (usually not open-source) more than purely analytical (can be open and classified). I think we can now say “habis”…ya ?
It is a funny sort of self-declared Counterintelligence Officer if he doesn’t know who you are Ken … still, if he says he is pretty good at what he does then we should accept his self-validation.
Which police force in which country tipped of the Indonesian police? The Bali nine could have been arrested in Australia to avoid the death penalty.
.Short memory, must have a, short memory…
Mbai is M’bai as phonetically translated.
It is rather hard to pronounce two consonants together. Anyway, as he is from Central Sulawesi, you are welcome to ask him how he pronounces it, vernacularly. I don’t care that much.
Please feel free to know whomever you wish. Your apparent need to validate yourself is your own. I only pointed out that, unless you are cleared for access to highly classified Indonesian information, you could not possibly know everything about JI or Amrozi, and if indeed you do know Mukhlas’ widow, that would make YOU subject to some questioning by not only Indonesian authorities, but I am sure others would also be interested. By the way, his real name is Huda Abdul bin Haq (Mukhlas), since you seem obsessive about names. I will say no more. Enjoy your contacts if they give you some pleasure and importance, but your assessment of Amrozi is rather primitive, as any Indonesia expert knows, most JI members of importance, constantly brag and joke around, even in court. In fact, what makes Ansyaad more competent than his Malaysian counterparts is that he can be taken seriously. As for Islamic extremists, they are rather unstable and many are voluble by nature. Now, what they have actually done in their “spare” time is a whole other matter, and I do know pretty much what they do, in their spare time. And, yes, I was born in these parts, 56 years ago. Cheers.
In the same way, I also know one of Amrozi’s brothers, one of his half-brothers and one of his sisters-in-law, namely Mukhlas’s widow. The fact that I have interviewed these people doesn’t,of course, guarantee that my opinion about Amrozi, whom I never met, is correct.
By the way, Mbai’s name doesn’t have an apostrophe.
How can one be ideologically corrupt? Its more like influenced / swayed by ideology. Corruption is base and material. Ideology is in the realm of ideas. Corrupted by ideology is an oxymoron.
So people should vote for the candidate that is the most extreme nationalist message, because he is strong enough to resist the nationalist urges right? But what happens if he really means it. He started nationalize foreign companies. You will see the Indonesian economy tank.
The essence of the festival is still best observed in smaller towns or villages.
In the big city like Yangon where most converge, display an ugly spasm of misogyny, sadism, masochism, and yes especially this year “extreme Inebriation” along with shameful lasciviousness due to better economy.
The result is a filled up of the Yangon morgue beyond capacity.
Counterfactual for erstwhile Jokowi lemmings: Would Prabowo have felt such a need to prove his “I’m enough of a tough guy” credentials? Think hard. Jokowi was never the man you thought he was.
This is all irrelevant. Many Indonesians act macho in court. So did ABB and so did many others; it’s all an act and mean little.
As a Counterintelligence Officer, I know more about Amrozi’s actions, public and private personas. You rely on Open Sources; I rely on personal knowledge and classified information. It’s my profession and I am pretty good at it. Amrozi is not just a class clown. Far from it, his antics in court notwithstanding. Indonesia media is hardly the same as the recently retired Lt Gen Ansyaad M’bai, please don’t even compare them. Unless you know Ansyaad, then you don’t know the reality of the situation.
We need to know real story and tentative result for Burmese future. What Burma is problem is alway hiding information, starting from junta authority, and generaly in Burmese society.
May be not origin source, Hla Oo shows atleast sececondary references, we can’t blandly ignore all his episoe of writing. As I’m doing PhD, his argument is reasonable, although it was not academic scietific way of study. We all Burmese people need to change for modern life for our survival! since we don’t have proper nationwide common culture, like confucian in China, Korea, Japan…
Dealing in death: Indonesia’s drug executions
I’m an Aussie. I disagree with the death penalty anywhere. But I think the overall Australian government and vocal people’s responses are spiced with sentimentality, nationalism, some arrogance, and double standards.
Indonesia’s laws specify the death penalty for certain drug offences. The Bali Nine knew that, took their chances, got caught. Had they not got caught they’d have enjoyed the profits and stood by while a bunch of Aussie kids and other consumers of cannabis did some damage, perhaps real harm, to their mental health. I’ll bet they wouldn’t have lost sleep over that. Get Indonesia to abolish the death penalty for sure. But the diplomatic pressure Australia has applied to the Indonesians reflects pure colonial style arrogance. It took the death penalty for 2 Aussie kids to motivate them to talk to the Indonesians publicly about this.
Secondly the Australian response has been about the 2 Aussies almost predominantly. Never mind the other nationalities being executed: they don’t count, they’re not Aussies. A true humanitarian appeal? Or a national appeal only which just so happens to appeal to many patriotic Aussies: looking after our boys. This Aussie government needed a boost in the polls after a series of gaffs by the PM, hard to ignore that right now.
And the last point: double standards. US troops and security specialists operate on Aussie soil. The U.S. is Australia’s biggest military ally. According to a current online source 13 people have been executed in the US in 2015 till April 15. If we are so against the death penalty where’s the Aussie government lobbying the Americans? No chance, wouldn’t be in our national interests to annoy the U.S.
Indonesia: the quality of justice
Anton. No politicians ever are. Votes. All politicians are guilty til proven innocent.
SBY is one of the nastier types. He [and JK] had three innocent Catholics killed, purely for politics, to appease greater Islam before he killed the Bali perps [not all of them, just a sampler]. Votes. Smarter than Jokowi though. He first invited ONA to send an analyst to Poso so his newly appointed, corrupt, ex POLRI, Protestant Bupati could arrange a barrage of misinformation to divert from the guilt of the Protestant Church, individually and collectively. And others. Howard really wanted the Sari Club bombers to die – he was never going to lift a finger to help the innocents. Votes. Abbott was a Minister in that Gov. Did he listen to the advice of the Holy Father, who knew exactly what was taking place and had appealed for the mens’ lives, more than once? No. He didn’t.
The Indonesian Catholic Church has come a long way on this issue since discrediting themselves in 65. Personally, I’d encourage Cardinal Julius SJ to go public with the story of how his uncle, the manager of a Dutch owned factory, was executed by Republicans. It may just have more of an impact than counting the number of angels protecting the condemned and calling in the family paranormal for some Kejawen flying nightmares around Magelang. Hi Julius.
Shot through the heart
Indonesia has indeed made some great strides since 1998, but in some ways it has been going backward in more recent years. For example, the field of presidential candidates has narrowed at each election for the past decade. There were five candidates in 2004, three in 2009 and only two in 2014. For a country with such a large population but without a more or less rigid two-party system such as the USA has, this limiting of the range of candidates is very unfortunate. Let’s hope the new electoral legislation operating in 2019 will result in a broadening of the field of candidates.
As Jokowi reveals himself increasingly to be a moral and intellectual lightweight, it is becoming clear that the Indonesian people faced a true Hobson’s choice last year.
As for the Jokowi-Kalla duo, the president and vice-president seem as dysfunctional together as were Megawati and Hamzah Haz, perhaps Indonesia’s oddest couple, a dozen years ago. Kalla is unlikely to play the dynamising role that he performed for the slower-moving president who first chose him as his running-mate. Maybe he is too old, or maybe Jokowi thinks that he himself, to quote another inarticulate president, is the ‘decider’.
In another respect, the recent evolution of Indonesian politics has shown how hard it is to register ‘great strides’. Is there any party that has been set up since Indonesia returned to a democratic regime that can be held up as a model for its integrity, the competence and honesty of its representatives and its determination to resist being sucked into the corruption at the core of the political system?
There is a great deal of idealism and the spirit of self-sacrifice in the NGO sphere in Indonesia, for which the late Munir has been one of the most emblematic figures. But so little of these qualities needed for a healthy body politic survive in the arena of mainstream, representative politics.
Indonesia: the quality of justice
For Peter Cohen,
Ansyaad Mbai is from Southeast Sulawesi, not Central Sulawesi. He is an orang Buton. I discussed Syawal Yasin with him, since Syawal is also a Butonese. He is an important jihadi who didn’t join JI. He was one of the first generation of Indonesians to train in Pakistan.
To confirm my recollection that Mbai had told me he was from Southeast Sulawesi, and lacking access as I do to classified Indonesian documents, I checked with that notorious open source data-bank, Wikipedia.
Indonesia: the quality of justice
For Michael Laffan,
Thanks for your contribution. I will press on with my desperate battle to validate myself.
Indonesia: the quality of justice
Mr Laffan,
As you don’t know me, please do not make assumptions. I am well aware of the Lowy Institute and Mr Ward’s 40 or so years of Indonesian analysis. I never claimed Mr Ward, or anybody, was ignorant of Indonesia. I was speaking about highly specific acts of extremism and terrorism in Indonesia and their propagators, from an operational side (usually not open-source) more than purely analytical (can be open and classified). I think we can now say “habis”…ya ?
Indonesia: the quality of justice
It is a funny sort of self-declared Counterintelligence Officer if he doesn’t know who you are Ken … still, if he says he is pretty good at what he does then we should accept his self-validation.
Shot through the heart
Which police force in which country tipped of the Indonesian police? The Bali nine could have been arrested in Australia to avoid the death penalty.
.Short memory, must have a, short memory…
Indonesia: the quality of justice
Ken,
Mbai is M’bai as phonetically translated.
It is rather hard to pronounce two consonants together. Anyway, as he is from Central Sulawesi, you are welcome to ask him how he pronounces it, vernacularly. I don’t care that much.
Please feel free to know whomever you wish. Your apparent need to validate yourself is your own. I only pointed out that, unless you are cleared for access to highly classified Indonesian information, you could not possibly know everything about JI or Amrozi, and if indeed you do know Mukhlas’ widow, that would make YOU subject to some questioning by not only Indonesian authorities, but I am sure others would also be interested. By the way, his real name is Huda Abdul bin Haq (Mukhlas), since you seem obsessive about names. I will say no more. Enjoy your contacts if they give you some pleasure and importance, but your assessment of Amrozi is rather primitive, as any Indonesia expert knows, most JI members of importance, constantly brag and joke around, even in court. In fact, what makes Ansyaad more competent than his Malaysian counterparts is that he can be taken seriously. As for Islamic extremists, they are rather unstable and many are voluble by nature. Now, what they have actually done in their “spare” time is a whole other matter, and I do know pretty much what they do, in their spare time. And, yes, I was born in these parts, 56 years ago. Cheers.
Indonesia: the quality of justice
Shame on Jokowi and shame on Indonesia.
Stunningly shambolic.
Indonesia: the quality of justice
In the same way, I also know one of Amrozi’s brothers, one of his half-brothers and one of his sisters-in-law, namely Mukhlas’s widow. The fact that I have interviewed these people doesn’t,of course, guarantee that my opinion about Amrozi, whom I never met, is correct.
By the way, Mbai’s name doesn’t have an apostrophe.
Vale Pamela Gutman
A family friend and a specialist in Arakan and Burmese culture and politics. May Pam Rest in Peace.
Indonesia: the quality of justice
Legal consistency is a sign of a developed culture? So Gulf states are developed because they are legally consistent in the ir application of Hudud?
Indonesia: the quality of justice
How can one be ideologically corrupt? Its more like influenced / swayed by ideology. Corruption is base and material. Ideology is in the realm of ideas. Corrupted by ideology is an oxymoron.
Indonesia: the quality of justice
So people should vote for the candidate that is the most extreme nationalist message, because he is strong enough to resist the nationalist urges right? But what happens if he really means it. He started nationalize foreign companies. You will see the Indonesian economy tank.
Its silly logic.
Indonesia: the quality of justice
I have interviewed Ansyaad M’bai. If that means I know him, then yes, I know him.
Surviving Thingyan
The essence of the festival is still best observed in smaller towns or villages.
In the big city like Yangon where most converge, display an ugly spasm of misogyny, sadism, masochism, and yes especially this year “extreme Inebriation” along with shameful lasciviousness due to better economy.
The result is a filled up of the Yangon morgue beyond capacity.
Indonesia: the quality of justice
Counterfactual for erstwhile Jokowi lemmings: Would Prabowo have felt such a need to prove his “I’m enough of a tough guy” credentials? Think hard. Jokowi was never the man you thought he was.
Indonesia: the quality of justice
Ken,
This is all irrelevant. Many Indonesians act macho in court. So did ABB and so did many others; it’s all an act and mean little.
As a Counterintelligence Officer, I know more about Amrozi’s actions, public and private personas. You rely on Open Sources; I rely on personal knowledge and classified information. It’s my profession and I am pretty good at it. Amrozi is not just a class clown. Far from it, his antics in court notwithstanding. Indonesia media is hardly the same as the recently retired Lt Gen Ansyaad M’bai, please don’t even compare them. Unless you know Ansyaad, then you don’t know the reality of the situation.
Burma in Limbo, part 4
We need to know real story and tentative result for Burmese future. What Burma is problem is alway hiding information, starting from junta authority, and generaly in Burmese society.
May be not origin source, Hla Oo shows atleast sececondary references, we can’t blandly ignore all his episoe of writing. As I’m doing PhD, his argument is reasonable, although it was not academic scietific way of study. We all Burmese people need to change for modern life for our survival! since we don’t have proper nationwide common culture, like confucian in China, Korea, Japan…