All I wanted to say I agree with “Burnt Oak” comments
and my other point is people go on about Democracy and somehow the mention of a Thai way of Democracy is wrong for them to contemplate.
I think people commenting here should remember Democracy takes time
look how long it took Australia, New Zealand, USA, took over a 100yrs for institutions to fully develop and populations to adhere to the principals.
And even today Democracy systems are different all around the world,
take New Zealand & Pacific Islands who have tribal
Indigenous representations councils that form part of there Democracy
system. A democratic system must be formed with the culture.
I can’t actually find the point I make in your previous analysis (though the analysis is very good). All I’m saying is that the resistance promoted Xanana’s leadership, and international fora and journalists picked up on that. The simplification didn’t start with the journalists and international fora themselves, but was an example of a resistance successfully getting its own narrative taken up internationally. It’s a dialectical relationship, if you will, and not *only* an example of failed international coverage – although more nuance in that coverage would be great, more nuance in analysis of the relationship between local and international discourse is also helpful.
When I say ‘resistance’ I also mean a broad swath of it, beyond Xanana’s own leadership group. His leadership wasn’t merely coerced, or manipulated, or created by him; that’s one part of any leadership, but it was also enthusiastically seized upon by independence supporters.
Yeah, Portugal, which is not that poorly governed, or the British wouldn’t keep buying up summer homes south of Lisbon.
Portugal has had elections now, for about
40 years. We can’t judge Melaka (Malacca) because it is Malaysian now, meaning, corrupt and autocratic. Timor-Leste, Goa (India) and Macau have their problems. Brazil is actually rich with resources, they just have been led by Right-Wing Military Fascists (in the past) or Left-Wing nimrods in the present.
By the way, Massachusetts would never have had a fishing industry in Fall River, if not for Cape Verde Islanders, so I think your view of the Portuguese is somewhat jaded. Many of the early American colonists were Conversos of Portuguese ancestry. The vast wealth of art, philosophy and science produced by Sephardic Jews (e.g., Baruch Spinoza) of Portuguese origin, even if finding past refuge in the Netherlands, speaks to a Portuguese past less sullied than you seem to suggest.
Actually you should get the US pay for this mess. Why does the rest of the world alwas have pay their share for the US’ botched hegemonial attempts? The latest will be the millions of handicapped children and stillbirth the depleted uranium ammunition created in Iraq and in the fight against the ISIS caliphate. For all the hatred some US politicians hold in store for the UN, they will gladly “accept” co-founding of UNHCR or UNICEF to “mop up” after them.
What’s going on? The one-eyed cretins (that’s you ‘notdisappointed’ & Akawitt Kowichaphan) have seriously overdosed on that bad batch of yellow kool-aid and are deliriously blathering banalities. Get over it. The old fella is nearing the exit terminal while his spawn clears the decks to ascend the throne. Are you getting yourselves ready to grovel before this truly unworthy piece of work?
As for citing Michael Yon – that joker is little but a skid-mark on the porcelain.
If Bozo the clown wrote “2+2=4”, I would accept it after evaluating the merits of his conclusions.
You, however, would say, “oh no, we dont know who wrote 2+2=4, therefore 2+2 does not equal 4.”
There is no otherwise deceptive ulterior motive of this piece. Its obvious what the point is, its in the text itself. You refuse to actually present an argument based on logic and reason against the text, instead you choose to ramble on giving yourself excuse upon excuse to ignore what you don’t like to see.
“… local opinion about Timorese leaders was always more nuanced and conflicted than international portrayals made them out to be …” Indeed, all the above article corroborate is that journalist, by and large, fail their readers by not reporting the many nuances. They want “stories that sell” and once they stuck with a certain image that “sold” well, they are then loth to change it until too late. After that the damage is done and to reverse course they probably then overdo it once again. The only remedy would be that people get more involved in reading local site and bloggers and form their own opinion, either by learning the respective languages or by these local bloggers acquiring enough English to make these deviating opinions heard. The Internet makes it possible and lazy journalists will soon undermine their own livelihood that way.
I humbly disagree. The issue is whether beyond a reasonable doubt (criminal standard) the evidence the court considered, and how the court interpreted that evidence, justified a guilty determination.
The question of who might have brought about death (if indeed homicide was the cause)does not arise. The issue is to do with how the trial(s) were conducted, what evidence was admissible, what was not etc; in other words, procedural propriety.
Anyway, just an off the cuff musing, really.
Teak Yu Buddhi – that’s great then! Instead of beating me up and hate campaigning me you all should be on your knees waiting on me – i am not a commoner, i have been born a baron in a noble family whose roots reach back around 800 years.
🙂
“Writing an article about Xanana using (unreliable) secondary data will lead you to a very far from the truth conclusion and certainly will not help to develop true understanding of what he is exactly doing. I suggest the authors to spend much more time in Timor to gather insights into Xanana’s actions. Unlike the authors’ “open book” suggestion, I am fully convinced that there is more to learn from Xanana”.
Our agenda is not to take part in external (or internal) debates about who should or shouldn’t be leaders in Timor-Leste.
The aim of this article is not to develop a ‘true understanding’ of what Gusmao is doing, or whether or not he is a ‘despot’.Rather, it is to examine the ways that Timorese leadership and politics have been represented in external accounts, often in simplified ways, in accounts that only gave one side of the story.
Mamat writes:
“The means by which the resistance in general, and Xanana himself, propagated his own leadership mythology is also a very strong factor. This mythology helped maintain a narrative of unity while papering over, at least for public consumption, many internal resistance splits that dated especially from the early 1980s. International actors didn’t invent this Xanana-centric narrative by themselves; it was core to the resistance itself for many many years; the fact that it was adopted and propagated in the international arena by journalists etc. is a measure of the resistance’s success on that front pre-1999. The splits since then are often a matter of history and the political conflicts coming to the fore, in various stages, post-independence”.
Your comment summarises our analysis here: http://www.newmandala.org/2014/11/07/the-lost-leadership-of-timor-leste/ about splits and the local making of political figures. Our argument in the current article however, is about the external celebration of Gusmao, which was certainly enabled by the local myth-making of Xanana.
We believe it is important to show that Timorese political figures were always more contested than external debates have typically allowed for. The comments in reply to our article – as to nearly any article about Timorese politics – testify to that.
I think most Thais do know that their King is one of the richest men in the world. Strangely, it seems to be a source of pride for some of them, rather than an embarrassment or as evidence of a lack of just wealth distribution etc. I am sure most Thais do actually support the monarchy, despite it being obvious that a large number do not. Obviously that is hard to gauge but the existence of a lese majeste law suggests that a fairly large number of Thais would criticise if they could (?)… I am of the opinion (just opinion) that the King of Thailand does not support the lese majeste laws (like he has said in the past) and that they are a political tool used to silence political opponents of the real leaders of the country, I do believe he is a good man but forced, by those who wield power, to be the figurehead of a very corrupt and unjust system. I feel sorry for him but most of all I feel sorry for the Thai people, who believe the lies and support terrible crimes because they believe their King is ordering them. This is also the reason so many Thais seem to be turning against the monarchy now.. they are wrongly blaming their King. Maybe I am being naive, I don’t know… I guess not many do know for sure.
They are a commoner because that is the way they were born… Nothing makes a rich person better than a poor person. Some poor people get very lucky if they work incredibly hard and overcome the barriers that rich people put up to help themselves. The rich were just lucky enough to be born that way, to their parents and in their social situation and everything in their life is made easier because they were lucky enough to be born with money. I assume you must be joking because no one is that ignorant of the facts of life, not even commoners… It is a very strange person who thinks that they deserve to live longer, to get access to better education, better drinking water etc just because they have an easier life.. very odd comment.. maybe I just didn’t get the joke.
The point is definitely about who wrote it. Because one must know who the authpr is and then reflect on their ability to know fact from fiction. You must be able to ascertain the process reason of the research and hence the conclusion of that research. If it was done to denigrate and demean and thus to undermine a respected insitution for an otherwise deceptive ulterior motive.
Nmites will accept anything from anyone who against 112 no matter who is the author, even Bozo the Clown. Well actually you have accepted Bozo’s writings under the guise of Andrew MacGregor Marshall. That already says much about the open-mindedness and clarity of “most” readers here.
I post an excerpt from Michael Yon’s interview on FOX News. Something more believable that the know-it-all attitude of farangs who know ntohing and care nothing about Thailand and her people and culture. Who choose to believe the deception of a ghost-writtten traash post from a trash mouth rose. And who lap-up the regurgitation of a drug muddled racist trash talking and garbage spewing faux journalist andymac.
“Occasionally people send links to Marshall’s latest crazy rantings about Thailand. Most everyone who has read Marshall realizes he is amazingly dishonest.
It is important to remember that he lost his job at Reuters after 17 years due to his massive substance abuse problems, personal issues, and serial dishonesty.
Marshall has openly attacked his long time colleagues and employer. Each time he gets caught in a lie, Marshall publishes images of his baby and wife.
Thai people must STOP reading Marshall, and block his page. Everyone knows that he lies. As with that lady in London, Rose Amornpat, the moment people stopped paying attention to her, she became irrelevant.
Would you roll loaded dice in a real game, knowing they are loaded? Marshall and Rose are loaded dice. The answer is always the same.
Marshall depends on angering readers so that they will forward his links. Anyone who forwards his links is doing a disservice to Thailand, and to truth in general.
Marshall’s recent book was a complete failure. Outside of his family and close circle — which obviously is small — practically nobody bought it.”
Their notoriety stems from their trash talk that finds a limited audience that is aided and abetted thus perpetrated by this site of like-mindned individuals who should look at and analyse their own countries’ democracy and governance before involving themselves and their bigotry into the affairs of another country.
Wrong. Everyone IS a politician in the generic sense of the word. All social intercourse is politics, and indeed the definition of politics is to define, guide, create and determine social intercourse.
Honestly you’re comments are so absurd and predictable that I actually think you making fun of ultra-royalists a la The Colbert Report. Its really impossible to take you seriously.
Id debate with you, but then again, I can’t, cause of the lese majeste law.
and libel for ordinary people and the lese majeste law are two completely different things. if you think they are the same or even similar, why not just allow the king to be protected by the libel law?
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The changing face of Xanana Gusmao
Spinoza’s grandfather got out before they could burn him.
Thailand’s forgotten key
All I wanted to say I agree with “Burnt Oak” comments
and my other point is people go on about Democracy and somehow the mention of a Thai way of Democracy is wrong for them to contemplate.
I think people commenting here should remember Democracy takes time
look how long it took Australia, New Zealand, USA, took over a 100yrs for institutions to fully develop and populations to adhere to the principals.
And even today Democracy systems are different all around the world,
take New Zealand & Pacific Islands who have tribal
Indigenous representations councils that form part of there Democracy
system. A democratic system must be formed with the culture.
The changing face of Xanana Gusmao
Hi Maj and Angie,
I can’t actually find the point I make in your previous analysis (though the analysis is very good). All I’m saying is that the resistance promoted Xanana’s leadership, and international fora and journalists picked up on that. The simplification didn’t start with the journalists and international fora themselves, but was an example of a resistance successfully getting its own narrative taken up internationally. It’s a dialectical relationship, if you will, and not *only* an example of failed international coverage – although more nuance in that coverage would be great, more nuance in analysis of the relationship between local and international discourse is also helpful.
When I say ‘resistance’ I also mean a broad swath of it, beyond Xanana’s own leadership group. His leadership wasn’t merely coerced, or manipulated, or created by him; that’s one part of any leadership, but it was also enthusiastically seized upon by independence supporters.
The changing face of Xanana Gusmao
Yeah, Portugal, which is not that poorly governed, or the British wouldn’t keep buying up summer homes south of Lisbon.
Portugal has had elections now, for about
40 years. We can’t judge Melaka (Malacca) because it is Malaysian now, meaning, corrupt and autocratic. Timor-Leste, Goa (India) and Macau have their problems. Brazil is actually rich with resources, they just have been led by Right-Wing Military Fascists (in the past) or Left-Wing nimrods in the present.
By the way, Massachusetts would never have had a fishing industry in Fall River, if not for Cape Verde Islanders, so I think your view of the Portuguese is somewhat jaded. Many of the early American colonists were Conversos of Portuguese ancestry. The vast wealth of art, philosophy and science produced by Sephardic Jews (e.g., Baruch Spinoza) of Portuguese origin, even if finding past refuge in the Netherlands, speaks to a Portuguese past less sullied than you seem to suggest.
Securitisation of Australian Aid
Actually you should get the US pay for this mess. Why does the rest of the world alwas have pay their share for the US’ botched hegemonial attempts? The latest will be the millions of handicapped children and stillbirth the depleted uranium ammunition created in Iraq and in the fight against the ISIS caliphate. For all the hatred some US politicians hold in store for the UN, they will gladly “accept” co-founding of UNHCR or UNICEF to “mop up” after them.
The changing face of Xanana Gusmao
What did we expect?
Have we ever heard about a country that was well governed after the incompetent and fascist Portuguese finally left them alone?
Thai Coup: A normal way of life
What’s going on? The one-eyed cretins (that’s you ‘notdisappointed’ & Akawitt Kowichaphan) have seriously overdosed on that bad batch of yellow kool-aid and are deliriously blathering banalities. Get over it. The old fella is nearing the exit terminal while his spawn clears the decks to ascend the throne. Are you getting yourselves ready to grovel before this truly unworthy piece of work?
As for citing Michael Yon – that joker is little but a skid-mark on the porcelain.
Thai Coup: A normal way of life
If Bozo the clown wrote “2+2=4”, I would accept it after evaluating the merits of his conclusions.
You, however, would say, “oh no, we dont know who wrote 2+2=4, therefore 2+2 does not equal 4.”
There is no otherwise deceptive ulterior motive of this piece. Its obvious what the point is, its in the text itself. You refuse to actually present an argument based on logic and reason against the text, instead you choose to ramble on giving yourself excuse upon excuse to ignore what you don’t like to see.
The changing face of Xanana Gusmao
“… local opinion about Timorese leaders was always more nuanced and conflicted than international portrayals made them out to be …” Indeed, all the above article corroborate is that journalist, by and large, fail their readers by not reporting the many nuances. They want “stories that sell” and once they stuck with a certain image that “sold” well, they are then loth to change it until too late. After that the damage is done and to reverse course they probably then overdo it once again. The only remedy would be that people get more involved in reading local site and bloggers and form their own opinion, either by learning the respective languages or by these local bloggers acquiring enough English to make these deviating opinions heard. The Internet makes it possible and lazy journalists will soon undermine their own livelihood that way.
Thai Coup: A normal way of life
I humbly disagree. The issue is whether beyond a reasonable doubt (criminal standard) the evidence the court considered, and how the court interpreted that evidence, justified a guilty determination.
The question of who might have brought about death (if indeed homicide was the cause)does not arise. The issue is to do with how the trial(s) were conducted, what evidence was admissible, what was not etc; in other words, procedural propriety.
Anyway, just an off the cuff musing, really.
Thai Coup: A normal way of life
Teak Yu Buddhi – that’s great then! Instead of beating me up and hate campaigning me you all should be on your knees waiting on me – i am not a commoner, i have been born a baron in a noble family whose roots reach back around 800 years.
🙂
Thai Coup: A normal way of life
Maybe they have something over the king’s head to control him, like knowledge of the 1946 killing of Anand.
The changing face of Xanana Gusmao
Dear all,
Thank you for your comments.
Allow us to respond to a few of them.
Abel da Silva writes:
“Writing an article about Xanana using (unreliable) secondary data will lead you to a very far from the truth conclusion and certainly will not help to develop true understanding of what he is exactly doing. I suggest the authors to spend much more time in Timor to gather insights into Xanana’s actions. Unlike the authors’ “open book” suggestion, I am fully convinced that there is more to learn from Xanana”.
Our agenda is not to take part in external (or internal) debates about who should or shouldn’t be leaders in Timor-Leste.
The aim of this article is not to develop a ‘true understanding’ of what Gusmao is doing, or whether or not he is a ‘despot’.Rather, it is to examine the ways that Timorese leadership and politics have been represented in external accounts, often in simplified ways, in accounts that only gave one side of the story.
Mamat writes:
“The means by which the resistance in general, and Xanana himself, propagated his own leadership mythology is also a very strong factor. This mythology helped maintain a narrative of unity while papering over, at least for public consumption, many internal resistance splits that dated especially from the early 1980s. International actors didn’t invent this Xanana-centric narrative by themselves; it was core to the resistance itself for many many years; the fact that it was adopted and propagated in the international arena by journalists etc. is a measure of the resistance’s success on that front pre-1999. The splits since then are often a matter of history and the political conflicts coming to the fore, in various stages, post-independence”.
Your comment summarises our analysis here: http://www.newmandala.org/2014/11/07/the-lost-leadership-of-timor-leste/ about splits and the local making of political figures. Our argument in the current article however, is about the external celebration of Gusmao, which was certainly enabled by the local myth-making of Xanana.
We believe it is important to show that Timorese political figures were always more contested than external debates have typically allowed for. The comments in reply to our article – as to nearly any article about Timorese politics – testify to that.
Thai Coup: A normal way of life
I think most Thais do know that their King is one of the richest men in the world. Strangely, it seems to be a source of pride for some of them, rather than an embarrassment or as evidence of a lack of just wealth distribution etc. I am sure most Thais do actually support the monarchy, despite it being obvious that a large number do not. Obviously that is hard to gauge but the existence of a lese majeste law suggests that a fairly large number of Thais would criticise if they could (?)… I am of the opinion (just opinion) that the King of Thailand does not support the lese majeste laws (like he has said in the past) and that they are a political tool used to silence political opponents of the real leaders of the country, I do believe he is a good man but forced, by those who wield power, to be the figurehead of a very corrupt and unjust system. I feel sorry for him but most of all I feel sorry for the Thai people, who believe the lies and support terrible crimes because they believe their King is ordering them. This is also the reason so many Thais seem to be turning against the monarchy now.. they are wrongly blaming their King. Maybe I am being naive, I don’t know… I guess not many do know for sure.
Thai Coup: A normal way of life
They are a commoner because that is the way they were born… Nothing makes a rich person better than a poor person. Some poor people get very lucky if they work incredibly hard and overcome the barriers that rich people put up to help themselves. The rich were just lucky enough to be born that way, to their parents and in their social situation and everything in their life is made easier because they were lucky enough to be born with money. I assume you must be joking because no one is that ignorant of the facts of life, not even commoners… It is a very strange person who thinks that they deserve to live longer, to get access to better education, better drinking water etc just because they have an easier life.. very odd comment.. maybe I just didn’t get the joke.
Thai Coup: A normal way of life
The point is definitely about who wrote it. Because one must know who the authpr is and then reflect on their ability to know fact from fiction. You must be able to ascertain the process reason of the research and hence the conclusion of that research. If it was done to denigrate and demean and thus to undermine a respected insitution for an otherwise deceptive ulterior motive.
Nmites will accept anything from anyone who against 112 no matter who is the author, even Bozo the Clown. Well actually you have accepted Bozo’s writings under the guise of Andrew MacGregor Marshall. That already says much about the open-mindedness and clarity of “most” readers here.
Thai Coup: A normal way of life
I post an excerpt from Michael Yon’s interview on FOX News. Something more believable that the know-it-all attitude of farangs who know ntohing and care nothing about Thailand and her people and culture. Who choose to believe the deception of a ghost-writtten traash post from a trash mouth rose. And who lap-up the regurgitation of a drug muddled racist trash talking and garbage spewing faux journalist andymac.
“Occasionally people send links to Marshall’s latest crazy rantings about Thailand. Most everyone who has read Marshall realizes he is amazingly dishonest.
It is important to remember that he lost his job at Reuters after 17 years due to his massive substance abuse problems, personal issues, and serial dishonesty.
Marshall has openly attacked his long time colleagues and employer. Each time he gets caught in a lie, Marshall publishes images of his baby and wife.
Thai people must STOP reading Marshall, and block his page. Everyone knows that he lies. As with that lady in London, Rose Amornpat, the moment people stopped paying attention to her, she became irrelevant.
Would you roll loaded dice in a real game, knowing they are loaded? Marshall and Rose are loaded dice. The answer is always the same.
Marshall depends on angering readers so that they will forward his links. Anyone who forwards his links is doing a disservice to Thailand, and to truth in general.
Marshall’s recent book was a complete failure. Outside of his family and close circle — which obviously is small — practically nobody bought it.”
Their notoriety stems from their trash talk that finds a limited audience that is aided and abetted thus perpetrated by this site of like-mindned individuals who should look at and analyse their own countries’ democracy and governance before involving themselves and their bigotry into the affairs of another country.
Everyone is a politician
Wrong. Everyone IS a politician in the generic sense of the word. All social intercourse is politics, and indeed the definition of politics is to define, guide, create and determine social intercourse.
Thai Coup: A normal way of life
Honestly you’re comments are so absurd and predictable that I actually think you making fun of ultra-royalists a la The Colbert Report. Its really impossible to take you seriously.
Id debate with you, but then again, I can’t, cause of the lese majeste law.
and libel for ordinary people and the lese majeste law are two completely different things. if you think they are the same or even similar, why not just allow the king to be protected by the libel law?
Thai Coup: A normal way of life
when in doubt, lese majeste