I agree with your concerns regarding the proximity of Prabowo’s coalition to FPI&FUI, I think there is a much more significant factor that the article did not address -the fact that discrmination towards Shiite & Ahmadiyah followers goes beyond the confine of smalll & loud radical groups. Although most would not agree with the use of violence, it is not uncommon to hear Shiite & Ahmadiyah been described as deviant in both NU & Muhammadiyah circles. Many NU & Muhammadiyah leaders have publicly expressed concerns about the so-called deviant groups, and advocated for the need for government to “maintain” social order with intervention. The view that the rights of minorities can be subjected to restrictions in the name of maintaining “social order” and/or “communal values” is not even a controversial one to many mainstream figures. Mahfud MD was most certinly a champion of this idea before the presidential election (though we can’t know for sure now since he’s been demonstrating a remarkable level of flexibility recently). Some supposedly “moderate” figures even publically called for the banning of Ahmadiyah and Shiite. So without discounting the role of FPI & FUI in the mobilisation of intolerance, I am not too convinced that they are the puppet masters here. Faces of intolerance, yes, but high profile figures with intolerant views (such as the master of haj-way robbery Suryadharma Ali) and those who simply let the bullies run wild (SBY comes to mind) should take a bigger share of the blame in my book.
You really should listen to the Sex Pistols KR and read the newspapers at the time of Princess Diana’s death. English people have been as disrepectful of the royal family as they wish to be. I don’t think that they get paid to be disrespectful either.
Islam in Indonesia has a diverse culture and understanding due to the previous religion background. Having support from one of conservative islamic outlets does not mean that the candidate will do the same attitude as his supporter. The most important thing about the issue of sectarian divides is the government give a freedom for each citizens to hold a particular religion.
C Beale observes that (in) My personal experience – after decades visiting Thailand – is that the CP has a widespread, and loyal, following. He’s a man with a tremendous sense of humour, very much in the Thai tradition of “sanuk”
You cannot be serious in making such a comment. In the forty years since I first came here I have never heard one Thai person (from arch conservatives on down the line) say anything that could be construed as positive about the CP. The ‘Thailand’ you claim to be visiting sounds like the one so nicely portrayed in Not the Nation.
And as for your comment on another thread about rocker Sek Lo So uniting the nation – have you been smoking the same gear he got outed for a couple of years back?
Kalla also has a shocking record in this regard and his use of militant Islamic preman gangs to attack Christians and Chinese goes back further than Prabowo.
Kalla was only brought to heel after the US nabbed his Makassar AQ buddy Agus Andi Dwikarna [Laskar Jundullah]. Realising Dwikarna, with the help of a bit of speech therapy, would probably dob on the Makassar crew who backed him, Kalla rolled over and the US has tickled his tummy ever since. Agus Dwi’s men came to regard Kalla as a traitor for dropping him and attacked one of Kalla’s auto outlets.
Kalla’s fraudulent Malino ‘reconciliation’ accords should be seen as a result of a process that began when Dwi was pinched. The real work in Ambon was done by Megawati appointee Sinyo Harry S from Manado, while a reduction of violence in Poso relied upon 3 outsiders being sacrificed while the true guilty parties, local Muslims and their backers from Makassar and Java, and local Protestants and their backers from Manado, went free.
A number of books have been written about the execution of the three Catholics and are emailed, without fail, whenever SBY’s name is mentioned in the same breath as an international award. The true, complete story is yet to be told for fear of reprisal. When it is, SBY and Kalla will probably be seen in quite a different light by historians.
Indonesia has achieved a 100 % success rate. It has manifested everything that Abdurrahman Wahid (Gus Dur) warned that it should not.
Indonesians should be proud of their waves of paranoia, religious chicanery, and bouts of Shari’a-deflating Taqiyya. A wonderful way to end a recent election, hardly better off than before it started. I recommend Indonesians, of broader thinking and greater depth of empathy, to examine what Malay NGOs, like Isma and Perkasa, are doing to their neighbour, Malaysia, to get a sense of what Indonesia’s future might be, if fanatical Islamic autarchy replaces consensual and tolerant political and social dialogue. When shouts of “Pendatang” start to ring through the air, one will then realise that it is well-past the midnight hour.
Indonesia has achieved a 100 % success rate. It has manifested everything that Abdurrahman Wahid (Gus Dur) warned that it should not.
Indonesians should be proud of their waves paranoia, religious chicanery, and bouts of Shari’a-deflating Taqiyya. A wonderful way to end a recent election, hardly better off than before it started. I recommend Indonesians, of broader thinking and greater depth of empathy, to examine what Malay NGOs, like Isma and Perkasa, are doing to their neighbour, Malaysia, to get a sense of what Indonesia’s future might be, if fanatical Islamic autarchy replaces consensual and tolerant political and social dialogue. When shouts of “Pendatang” start to ring through the air, one will then realise that it is well-past the midnight hour.
The actual story in actual history there is a Taksin past over 200 years ago a bloodline true King and his most trusted Army Chief a civilian ebolish him out and ‘Write’ the story of new false history.
Than the story begin until today the other civilian man also with the similiar name as Thaksin. Therefore, in order to remain the story of the written history, the Thaksin have also to be demolish.
I sometimes feel there is just a huge river of this kind of analysis yet very little exploration of coherent political solutions.
What does the opposition to the junta need to do next?
What should be its strategy?
This piece speaks of “fairness” but for me that is too wooly – what does that actually mean in a concrete way?
And once the meaning of fairness has been established how to achieve it?
The real issue does seem persistent; that there are a well-organised, well-motivated, well-financed group – who could be roughly defined as the Thai establishment – who are prepared to use extreme forms of violence and force to get their own way and maintaining their hegemony, even if that means destroying the political, civil and democratic rights of every ordinary Thai.
So how to curtail the power of that group?
If that group are not brought to heel they will continue to dominate and continue to destroy Thai democracy.
Any long term solution includes the defeat of that group.
Look at the Sultanate of Oman. You have a good Monarchy, he is great. He knows technology and he privately visits sites to see development in progress. He replaced his cabinet in 2012 of non performance.
Looking at Nazrin, intellectual he will bring development to Perak. I prefer Monarchy.
I am good I manage one guy. In democracy, I manage many guys pay more and cost go up.
‘The longest journey begins with a single step.’ It’s going to take a generation or two if/when they ever stop scratching around and start in earnest. But you’ll know it’s begun to kick in when kids get quizzed coming in from school and their ‘guardians’ squark,’What on earth are they teaching you at that school of yours ??!!’
On any matter related to the monarchy, it is always hard to provide conclusive evidence; so we make do with what we have.
Before the coup I had a Thai teacher at Thammasat University who spent some time explaining the prince’s low popularity, caused by the many rumors on HIV, mistresses, bad temper and so on (yes, that was before the explosion of lese-majeste trials). I have also met many Thais who felt ambivalent if not distrustful towards the prince (back in 2005). Most would say so only in private and in full confidence of the person they spoke to, because this is not a matter you can discuss publicly. But this is hardly evidence, rather my own experience. For something more serious on the topic, see Thaistory by Andrew Mac Gregor Marshall, where the low popularity of the CP is discussed; or note the absence of a crowd at the celebration of the prince 60’s birthday.
But saying that the prince has a low popularity does not mean that this general lack of sympathy is based on actual facts or that the prince is a bad person. As I stated before his image may have been manipulated by his ennemies: there are no ways to know for sure.
Anyway I have not been back in Thailand in the last 3 years, so opinions on the crown prince may have changed since then.
Promsop – what EVIDENCE have you got for making this statement “The CP has had a very low popularity in Thai society for decades” ? Frankly I think it is baloney – spread by the CP’s rivals and enemies. My personal experience – after decades visiting Thailand – is that the CP has a widespread, and loyal, following. He’s a man with a tremendous sense of humour, very much in the Thai tradition of “sanuk”.
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Defending the Faith
I agree with your concerns regarding the proximity of Prabowo’s coalition to FPI&FUI, I think there is a much more significant factor that the article did not address -the fact that discrmination towards Shiite & Ahmadiyah followers goes beyond the confine of smalll & loud radical groups. Although most would not agree with the use of violence, it is not uncommon to hear Shiite & Ahmadiyah been described as deviant in both NU & Muhammadiyah circles. Many NU & Muhammadiyah leaders have publicly expressed concerns about the so-called deviant groups, and advocated for the need for government to “maintain” social order with intervention. The view that the rights of minorities can be subjected to restrictions in the name of maintaining “social order” and/or “communal values” is not even a controversial one to many mainstream figures. Mahfud MD was most certinly a champion of this idea before the presidential election (though we can’t know for sure now since he’s been demonstrating a remarkable level of flexibility recently). Some supposedly “moderate” figures even publically called for the banning of Ahmadiyah and Shiite. So without discounting the role of FPI & FUI in the mobilisation of intolerance, I am not too convinced that they are the puppet masters here. Faces of intolerance, yes, but high profile figures with intolerant views (such as the master of haj-way robbery Suryadharma Ali) and those who simply let the bullies run wild (SBY comes to mind) should take a bigger share of the blame in my book.
Thorns of the Thai rose
You really should listen to the Sex Pistols KR and read the newspapers at the time of Princess Diana’s death. English people have been as disrepectful of the royal family as they wish to be. I don’t think that they get paid to be disrespectful either.
Examining ISMA’s Nam Tien ideology
The “authorities” are actually using this to “superglue” themselves to power. It is not like they cannot do “something” about it.
Tacitly approving all Islamic and political gangsterism the Govt has shown itself to be hypocritical.
This is however not new, it just got desperate when the BN Govt lost too many parliamentary seats.
BTW, the Law doesn’t actually work in Malaysia unless it is used against ordinary folks like myself.
Defending the Faith
Islam in Indonesia has a diverse culture and understanding due to the previous religion background. Having support from one of conservative islamic outlets does not mean that the candidate will do the same attitude as his supporter. The most important thing about the issue of sectarian divides is the government give a freedom for each citizens to hold a particular religion.
Thailand, what next?
We’ve got trouble in River City:
http://www.nationmultimedia.com/breakingnews/Supinya-disagrees-with-idea-for-World-Cup-broadcas-30236012.html
Thailand, what next?
who is this going to end badly for?
http://www.bangkokpost.com/business/telecom/414816/nbtc-takes-hard-line-on-dtac
Thailand, what next?
More on the cure of Thaksinitis courtesy of the good folks in the junta:
http://www.telecomasia.net/blog/content/thai-junta-holding-mother-all-garage-sales
Thorns of the Thai rose
C Beale observes that (in) My personal experience – after decades visiting Thailand – is that the CP has a widespread, and loyal, following. He’s a man with a tremendous sense of humour, very much in the Thai tradition of “sanuk”
You cannot be serious in making such a comment. In the forty years since I first came here I have never heard one Thai person (from arch conservatives on down the line) say anything that could be construed as positive about the CP. The ‘Thailand’ you claim to be visiting sounds like the one so nicely portrayed in Not the Nation.
And as for your comment on another thread about rocker Sek Lo So uniting the nation – have you been smoking the same gear he got outed for a couple of years back?
Defending the Faith
Kalla also has a shocking record in this regard and his use of militant Islamic preman gangs to attack Christians and Chinese goes back further than Prabowo.
Kalla was only brought to heel after the US nabbed his Makassar AQ buddy Agus Andi Dwikarna [Laskar Jundullah]. Realising Dwikarna, with the help of a bit of speech therapy, would probably dob on the Makassar crew who backed him, Kalla rolled over and the US has tickled his tummy ever since. Agus Dwi’s men came to regard Kalla as a traitor for dropping him and attacked one of Kalla’s auto outlets.
Kalla’s fraudulent Malino ‘reconciliation’ accords should be seen as a result of a process that began when Dwi was pinched. The real work in Ambon was done by Megawati appointee Sinyo Harry S from Manado, while a reduction of violence in Poso relied upon 3 outsiders being sacrificed while the true guilty parties, local Muslims and their backers from Makassar and Java, and local Protestants and their backers from Manado, went free.
A number of books have been written about the execution of the three Catholics and are emailed, without fail, whenever SBY’s name is mentioned in the same breath as an international award. The true, complete story is yet to be told for fear of reprisal. When it is, SBY and Kalla will probably be seen in quite a different light by historians.
Defending the Faith
Indonesia has achieved a 100 % success rate. It has manifested everything that Abdurrahman Wahid (Gus Dur) warned that it should not.
Indonesians should be proud of their waves of paranoia, religious chicanery, and bouts of Shari’a-deflating Taqiyya. A wonderful way to end a recent election, hardly better off than before it started. I recommend Indonesians, of broader thinking and greater depth of empathy, to examine what Malay NGOs, like Isma and Perkasa, are doing to their neighbour, Malaysia, to get a sense of what Indonesia’s future might be, if fanatical Islamic autarchy replaces consensual and tolerant political and social dialogue. When shouts of “Pendatang” start to ring through the air, one will then realise that it is well-past the midnight hour.
Defending the Faith
Indonesia has achieved a 100 % success rate. It has manifested everything that Abdurrahman Wahid (Gus Dur) warned that it should not.
Indonesians should be proud of their waves paranoia, religious chicanery, and bouts of Shari’a-deflating Taqiyya. A wonderful way to end a recent election, hardly better off than before it started. I recommend Indonesians, of broader thinking and greater depth of empathy, to examine what Malay NGOs, like Isma and Perkasa, are doing to their neighbour, Malaysia, to get a sense of what Indonesia’s future might be, if fanatical Islamic autarchy replaces consensual and tolerant political and social dialogue. When shouts of “Pendatang” start to ring through the air, one will then realise that it is well-past the midnight hour.
Who’s who in the Thai coup?
Khun Ngaanadeeleg, thank you for links to additional information.
Thailand, what next?
The actual story in actual history there is a Taksin past over 200 years ago a bloodline true King and his most trusted Army Chief a civilian ebolish him out and ‘Write’ the story of new false history.
Than the story begin until today the other civilian man also with the similiar name as Thaksin. Therefore, in order to remain the story of the written history, the Thaksin have also to be demolish.
Thailand’s forgotten key
Again all very worthy analysis but what next?
I sometimes feel there is just a huge river of this kind of analysis yet very little exploration of coherent political solutions.
What does the opposition to the junta need to do next?
What should be its strategy?
This piece speaks of “fairness” but for me that is too wooly – what does that actually mean in a concrete way?
And once the meaning of fairness has been established how to achieve it?
The real issue does seem persistent; that there are a well-organised, well-motivated, well-financed group – who could be roughly defined as the Thai establishment – who are prepared to use extreme forms of violence and force to get their own way and maintaining their hegemony, even if that means destroying the political, civil and democratic rights of every ordinary Thai.
So how to curtail the power of that group?
If that group are not brought to heel they will continue to dominate and continue to destroy Thai democracy.
Any long term solution includes the defeat of that group.
Thailand’s forgotten key
You are of course right, but I get a chicken and egg feeling here.
The confusion about “Constitutional Monarchy” in Malaysia
Dear friend,
Look at the Sultanate of Oman. You have a good Monarchy, he is great. He knows technology and he privately visits sites to see development in progress. He replaced his cabinet in 2012 of non performance.
Looking at Nazrin, intellectual he will bring development to Perak. I prefer Monarchy.
I am good I manage one guy. In democracy, I manage many guys pay more and cost go up.
The Arabs tell me that.
Cheers!
Thailand’s forgotten key
‘The longest journey begins with a single step.’ It’s going to take a generation or two if/when they ever stop scratching around and start in earnest. But you’ll know it’s begun to kick in when kids get quizzed coming in from school and their ‘guardians’ squark,’What on earth are they teaching you at that school of yours ??!!’
Thorns of the Thai rose
Promsop …. agree, thanks….
Thorns of the Thai rose
On any matter related to the monarchy, it is always hard to provide conclusive evidence; so we make do with what we have.
Before the coup I had a Thai teacher at Thammasat University who spent some time explaining the prince’s low popularity, caused by the many rumors on HIV, mistresses, bad temper and so on (yes, that was before the explosion of lese-majeste trials). I have also met many Thais who felt ambivalent if not distrustful towards the prince (back in 2005). Most would say so only in private and in full confidence of the person they spoke to, because this is not a matter you can discuss publicly. But this is hardly evidence, rather my own experience. For something more serious on the topic, see Thaistory by Andrew Mac Gregor Marshall, where the low popularity of the CP is discussed; or note the absence of a crowd at the celebration of the prince 60’s birthday.
But saying that the prince has a low popularity does not mean that this general lack of sympathy is based on actual facts or that the prince is a bad person. As I stated before his image may have been manipulated by his ennemies: there are no ways to know for sure.
Anyway I have not been back in Thailand in the last 3 years, so opinions on the crown prince may have changed since then.
Thorns of the Thai rose
Promsop – what EVIDENCE have you got for making this statement “The CP has had a very low popularity in Thai society for decades” ? Frankly I think it is baloney – spread by the CP’s rivals and enemies. My personal experience – after decades visiting Thailand – is that the CP has a widespread, and loyal, following. He’s a man with a tremendous sense of humour, very much in the Thai tradition of “sanuk”.