If the foreign red shirts were only paid 300 baht a day, it seems there was some discrimination, as their Thai counterparts were reportedly paid more than that. But at least it was in line with the minimum wage, assuming that none had bachelors degrees.
[…] orang menyebarkan artikel kampanye yang kebanyakan isinya (mohon maaf) sampah, saya menemukan satu artikel yang sangat menarik dari Prof. John Roosa, seorang sejarawan dari University of British Columbia, yang mempelajari tentang sejarah […]
They were on the news, but since it contain a particular person, not many news outlet dare play the story more than once.
The Royal Administration Security Unit (RASU) is quite new and not have much coverage in English. http://www.economist.com/blogs/banyan/2014/05/future-thailands-elite
The point is it does not need to match strength. Which faction is going to dare openly oppose it in the field?
One wonders why, at this tragic moment in Thailand’s history, Grant Evans felt compelled to share his peculiar musings about Lao participation in Red Shirt rallies. Is he unaware that the bogus narrative of malevolent foreign infiltration of the Red Shirts is a central theme of anti-democracy propaganda in Thailand? Or is he doing his part to propagate this dangerous nonsense? Most ultra-nationalist Thais blame Cambodians rather than Laotians for conspiring with Thaksin to destroy Thailand, but the underlying argument is the same – the Red Shirts are not “real Thai” and do not adhere to the virtues of Thainess, so they should be condemned.
Frankly, the abysmal quality of Evans’ analysis of Thailand in recent years has made me question the veracity of his findings on Laos, which previously I had respected. Perhaps scholars should reexamine his work on Laos – if it is as crudely misleading and ideological as his analysis of Thailand, it is worse than useless and needs to be exposed as such.
It’s a fact that people always question Jokowi ability, due to his short tenure as Jakarta Governor and whether he will be leading the government or the head of PDI-P will be leading it. (Which strikes me weird why PDI-P has not hand over the party leader role to Jokowi).
However, one thing that has never been discussed is on the ability of Prabowo in the first place.
People only assume because he is a businessman, he will be fine. This is quite weird given that, one of his companies Kertas Nusantara is highly in debt and owed workers few months of salaries, alleged Rp14 Triliun (not sure if it has been resolved, but this question his ability to “care” about people and his “ability” as an overall).
And whether this issue is directly in conflict with 2008 Law No. 42 about Presidential and Vice Presidential Election, for the presidential candidates.
Also not forgetting how Prabowo has been barred from entering United States of America in year 2000, allegedly over the 1998 incident, who he himself refusing to talk about it. (Also not forgetting that he is actually discharged from Military rather than retiring from it)
If getting rid of the fuel subsidy is shifting PDI-P rightward, how should a leftist political platform approach this issue? Is the continuation of the fuel subsidy still a viable policy in Indonesia anyhow?
The problem here is that this is exactly how urban legend gets started – by rumor and unsubstantiated allegations.
While you state that you look at a “political-psychological relationship of the Lao to the Red Shirts” – some people/powers with an agenda other than research will quote this article as fact to further their agenda, even though it does not contain much fact.
That is where we are here in Thailand. Regardless the military coup we still are at a winner takes all conflict, no holds barred, no trick too dirty. According to rumor and a hate campaign it now is a fact believed by maybe millions of people that i am on Thaksin’s payroll, and these people won’t believe the truth – that i am not and have never been.
There is a lot of information i am getting. Some turns out to be true, and some not. But before i cannot get corroboration, and/or clear data, i will not write about those topics. And even in some cases that turned out to be true, i will hold back until i can present that in proper context.
My advise would be, if indeed you are interested in the “political-psychological relationship of the Lao to the Red Shirts” to write an article why Lao people like to watch Red Shirt TV stations. You may also have a look at why Laos as a country (like Cambodia) seems to prefer a pro-Thaksin government over a Democrat led government, and why that is so. You may also look in the idea if historical conflicts of these countries with Thailand may play a role there.
Sorry got lost in my own sentences; by “in light of…” I meant to say that your reluctance in discussing Prabowo beyond your statement about his business pedigree seems to suggest that you have little faith in persuading the readers here to agree with your assessment of Prabowo.
Isn’t it a bit naive to expect Jokowi to fix the problems you used against him in such a short period of time (2 years)? Such an one-sided allocation of onus amounts to nothing short of Prabowo apologitism. Whilst I do not share the enthusiasm of the author on Jokowi’s performance as a governor, his examples are perfectly valid. Jokowi did do an impressive job comparing to his predecessors. Besides, that’s not really the core of the author’s comparison of the two candidates anyway – he placed much stronger emphasis on the campaign platforms of both sides and how Prabowo and Jokowi present themselves to the electorate.
To dismiss the article just because you don’t share the author’s more optimistic assessment of Jokowi’s performance as a governor (a small part of the article) is ridiculous.
Equally ridiculous, unless you have some insider informations that somehow escape the rest of us, I doubt if you can really make the claim that Ahok is the one doing the work whereas Jokowi is jut an empty media darling. In light of your reluctance to discuss Prabowo beyond a preposterous statement implying that his pedigree as a businessman makes him more experienced in laying the groundwork – whatever that means. If Prabowo’s family’s wealth is the winning aspect of his CV, you must consider that his extraordinary wealth has a lot more to do with his family’s connection to Suharto during the New Order than Prabowo’s managerial genius.
I think that the daily rate of 300 baht ($10) would not encourage many Lao to make the journey to BKK. Maybe those already in casual work in BKK would find the rally incentive payment useful between jobs. If the Lao were traveling with border passes rather than passports they could get in some strife too. In my opinion, those Lao who can afford passports would not bother trekking to BKK for a protest rally, unless still wearing off the affects of Red Bull and Lao Khao shots after a LOSO concert. Maybe they are warming seats at rallies in Phak Isan or Phak Neua. Most Vientiane Lao fear crowd anger and violence so I doubt that they would be stirred into a frenzy like Newin Chitchob did so well with Isan Tai locals in the past.
I was just going to post that the author needed someone like Nick Nostitz on the ground to back up his assertions with hard evidence.
Then there he was!
Welcome back Nick! You sure are a tonic in these troubled times.
Why is the photo a four year old one showing (literally) red shirts? Whose decision was that?
Which particular demonstrations is the author talking about? To what extent is it accurate to label these as red shirt demonstrations and not spontaneous responses by people in general?
The knee jerk response to label anything anti-government as red shirt is much in evidence in Bangkok. There were literally no red shirts to be seen in the recent demonstrations the author refers to.
Ooops! I nearly missed this recent Chris Beale poster which he passes for FACTUAL:
” …Crucial analysis from current edition of The Economist, worth reading in full :
the army, the force defending the throne, has recently had unpalatable news. In late November the king signed a decree mandating that all decisions by the powerful defence council were subject to veto by the crown prince. The council includes the service heads and the permanent defence secretary. The heir apparent is now, in effect, their boss.”
And I could NOT find the particular Chris Beale ‘story’ about The Crown Prince had suddenly been ‘decreed’ by HMK as the now ‘acting Thailand Commander-in-Chief’.
More Thaksin-Prince buddy fairy tales from Chris Beale it seems.
The posters here are dreaming if they imagine that there will be any democratic element at all in the “reforms” that the military dictatorship plans. To the contrary, the business at hand is to complete the disenfranchisement of the majority of the Thai voters begun in the 2007 constitution. Practically speaking this means eliminating elections to the extent possible (wholly appointed Senate, partially appointed House) and, especially, transferring real power to the unelected “independent” agencies. However, a return to an old-style dictatorship with no elections at all is also a real possibility as Prayuth comes to the appreciate the concentration of power in his hands.
I know ‘many’ NM readers struggle to read things carefully.
To say ‘many’ Lao attended the rallies does not mean that most of the people at the rallies were Lao. Even if it was hundreds of Lao they still would have been a miniscule group at these enormous rallies, as Nick Nostitz points out. And as just a miniscule group they seem to have escaped the roving eye of Nick Nostitz.
The latter seems worried that somehow their attendance de-legitimises Red Shirt rallies. Of course, it does not. And I did put ‘foreign influence’ in scare quotes. Indeed it reminds me of a reverse situation after 1975 when Lao were fleeing to camps in Isan as refugees after the revolution. ‘Many’ Thai-Isan passed themselves off as Lao and became ‘refugees’. Did that de-legitimise the Lao refugees’ claims? No.
Of course, the Red Shirt leaders had no need to hire people from Laos, and there is no suggestion that they did. The Lao attended spontaneously. My interest is the rather peculiar political-psychological relationship of the Lao to the Red Shirts. However, I realise this is of only passing interest to those obsessed with Thailand.
The ignorance, or indifference, of some (not ‘many’) NM readers towards Laos I sometimes find unbelievable. For instance, a reader who can ask, ‘would yellow shirt demonstrations be possible in Laos?’ must be living in another universe from me.
There are must be more of these northeastern stories told by someone heard from someone to someone like your ” …never have the beautiful skin that Queen Sirikit has. The man (he may have been a commie, though) told me that Queen Sirikit had truck-load of fresh milk delivered to the palace daily for her bathing …”.
Pssst come closer Guest! I have a really juicy one you should hear about told by the princess’ driver about the unbelievable tons of food served at the palace every day.
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“Foreign influence” in Red Shirt demonstrations
If the foreign red shirts were only paid 300 baht a day, it seems there was some discrimination, as their Thai counterparts were reportedly paid more than that. But at least it was in line with the minimum wage, assuming that none had bachelors degrees.
Counting Thailand’s coups
Surely this would have been Rama VII?
Sukarno’s two bodies
[…] orang menyebarkan artikel kampanye yang kebanyakan isinya (mohon maaf) sampah, saya menemukan satu artikel yang sangat menarik dari Prof. John Roosa, seorang sejarawan dari University of British Columbia, yang mempelajari tentang sejarah […]
Thailand, what next?
They were on the news, but since it contain a particular person, not many news outlet dare play the story more than once.
The Royal Administration Security Unit (RASU) is quite new and not have much coverage in English.
http://www.economist.com/blogs/banyan/2014/05/future-thailands-elite
The point is it does not need to match strength. Which faction is going to dare openly oppose it in the field?
“Foreign influence” in Red Shirt demonstrations
One wonders why, at this tragic moment in Thailand’s history, Grant Evans felt compelled to share his peculiar musings about Lao participation in Red Shirt rallies. Is he unaware that the bogus narrative of malevolent foreign infiltration of the Red Shirts is a central theme of anti-democracy propaganda in Thailand? Or is he doing his part to propagate this dangerous nonsense? Most ultra-nationalist Thais blame Cambodians rather than Laotians for conspiring with Thaksin to destroy Thailand, but the underlying argument is the same – the Red Shirts are not “real Thai” and do not adhere to the virtues of Thainess, so they should be condemned.
Frankly, the abysmal quality of Evans’ analysis of Thailand in recent years has made me question the veracity of his findings on Laos, which previously I had respected. Perhaps scholars should reexamine his work on Laos – if it is as crudely misleading and ideological as his analysis of Thailand, it is worse than useless and needs to be exposed as such.
Sukarno’s two bodies
I totally agree with what Angrymagpie said.
It’s a fact that people always question Jokowi ability, due to his short tenure as Jakarta Governor and whether he will be leading the government or the head of PDI-P will be leading it. (Which strikes me weird why PDI-P has not hand over the party leader role to Jokowi).
However, one thing that has never been discussed is on the ability of Prabowo in the first place.
People only assume because he is a businessman, he will be fine. This is quite weird given that, one of his companies Kertas Nusantara is highly in debt and owed workers few months of salaries, alleged Rp14 Triliun (not sure if it has been resolved, but this question his ability to “care” about people and his “ability” as an overall).
And whether this issue is directly in conflict with 2008 Law No. 42 about Presidential and Vice Presidential Election, for the presidential candidates.
Also not forgetting how Prabowo has been barred from entering United States of America in year 2000, allegedly over the 1998 incident, who he himself refusing to talk about it. (Also not forgetting that he is actually discharged from Military rather than retiring from it)
Sukarno’s two bodies
If getting rid of the fuel subsidy is shifting PDI-P rightward, how should a leftist political platform approach this issue? Is the continuation of the fuel subsidy still a viable policy in Indonesia anyhow?
“Foreign influence” in Red Shirt demonstrations
The problem here is that this is exactly how urban legend gets started – by rumor and unsubstantiated allegations.
While you state that you look at a “political-psychological relationship of the Lao to the Red Shirts” – some people/powers with an agenda other than research will quote this article as fact to further their agenda, even though it does not contain much fact.
That is where we are here in Thailand. Regardless the military coup we still are at a winner takes all conflict, no holds barred, no trick too dirty. According to rumor and a hate campaign it now is a fact believed by maybe millions of people that i am on Thaksin’s payroll, and these people won’t believe the truth – that i am not and have never been.
There is a lot of information i am getting. Some turns out to be true, and some not. But before i cannot get corroboration, and/or clear data, i will not write about those topics. And even in some cases that turned out to be true, i will hold back until i can present that in proper context.
My advise would be, if indeed you are interested in the “political-psychological relationship of the Lao to the Red Shirts” to write an article why Lao people like to watch Red Shirt TV stations. You may also have a look at why Laos as a country (like Cambodia) seems to prefer a pro-Thaksin government over a Democrat led government, and why that is so. You may also look in the idea if historical conflicts of these countries with Thailand may play a role there.
Such a research would be useful.
Sukarno’s two bodies
Sorry got lost in my own sentences; by “in light of…” I meant to say that your reluctance in discussing Prabowo beyond your statement about his business pedigree seems to suggest that you have little faith in persuading the readers here to agree with your assessment of Prabowo.
Sukarno’s two bodies
Isn’t it a bit naive to expect Jokowi to fix the problems you used against him in such a short period of time (2 years)? Such an one-sided allocation of onus amounts to nothing short of Prabowo apologitism. Whilst I do not share the enthusiasm of the author on Jokowi’s performance as a governor, his examples are perfectly valid. Jokowi did do an impressive job comparing to his predecessors. Besides, that’s not really the core of the author’s comparison of the two candidates anyway – he placed much stronger emphasis on the campaign platforms of both sides and how Prabowo and Jokowi present themselves to the electorate.
To dismiss the article just because you don’t share the author’s more optimistic assessment of Jokowi’s performance as a governor (a small part of the article) is ridiculous.
Equally ridiculous, unless you have some insider informations that somehow escape the rest of us, I doubt if you can really make the claim that Ahok is the one doing the work whereas Jokowi is jut an empty media darling. In light of your reluctance to discuss Prabowo beyond a preposterous statement implying that his pedigree as a businessman makes him more experienced in laying the groundwork – whatever that means. If Prabowo’s family’s wealth is the winning aspect of his CV, you must consider that his extraordinary wealth has a lot more to do with his family’s connection to Suharto during the New Order than Prabowo’s managerial genius.
“Foreign influence” in Red Shirt demonstrations
>> Of course, the Red Shirt leaders had no need to hire people from Laos, and there is no suggestion that they did.
Yet the article says they were paid 300++ baht per day.
Friday wrap
Thanks Umar for pointing that, consider it corrected.
“Foreign influence” in Red Shirt demonstrations
I think that the daily rate of 300 baht ($10) would not encourage many Lao to make the journey to BKK. Maybe those already in casual work in BKK would find the rally incentive payment useful between jobs. If the Lao were traveling with border passes rather than passports they could get in some strife too. In my opinion, those Lao who can afford passports would not bother trekking to BKK for a protest rally, unless still wearing off the affects of Red Bull and Lao Khao shots after a LOSO concert. Maybe they are warming seats at rallies in Phak Isan or Phak Neua. Most Vientiane Lao fear crowd anger and violence so I doubt that they would be stirred into a frenzy like Newin Chitchob did so well with Isan Tai locals in the past.
Friday wrap
PUAN is not Muhammadiyah’s Women Wing. PUAN is affiliated with National Mandate Party (PAN) and does not have any linkage to Muhammadiyah.
“Foreign influence” in Red Shirt demonstrations
I was just going to post that the author needed someone like Nick Nostitz on the ground to back up his assertions with hard evidence.
Then there he was!
Welcome back Nick! You sure are a tonic in these troubled times.
Why is the photo a four year old one showing (literally) red shirts? Whose decision was that?
Which particular demonstrations is the author talking about? To what extent is it accurate to label these as red shirt demonstrations and not spontaneous responses by people in general?
The knee jerk response to label anything anti-government as red shirt is much in evidence in Bangkok. There were literally no red shirts to be seen in the recent demonstrations the author refers to.
Thailand, what next?
Ooops! I nearly missed this recent Chris Beale poster which he passes for FACTUAL:
” …Crucial analysis from current edition of The Economist, worth reading in full :
the army, the force defending the throne, has recently had unpalatable news. In late November the king signed a decree mandating that all decisions by the powerful defence council were subject to veto by the crown prince. The council includes the service heads and the permanent defence secretary. The heir apparent is now, in effect, their boss.”
Current edition of The Economist Chris Beale cites: http://www.economist.com/news/asia/21602759-sudden-move-army-brings-only-near-term-calm-path-throne
And I could NOT find the particular Chris Beale ‘story’ about The Crown Prince had suddenly been ‘decreed’ by HMK as the now ‘acting Thailand Commander-in-Chief’.
More Thaksin-Prince buddy fairy tales from Chris Beale it seems.
Thailand, what next?
The posters here are dreaming if they imagine that there will be any democratic element at all in the “reforms” that the military dictatorship plans. To the contrary, the business at hand is to complete the disenfranchisement of the majority of the Thai voters begun in the 2007 constitution. Practically speaking this means eliminating elections to the extent possible (wholly appointed Senate, partially appointed House) and, especially, transferring real power to the unelected “independent” agencies. However, a return to an old-style dictatorship with no elections at all is also a real possibility as Prayuth comes to the appreciate the concentration of power in his hands.
“Foreign influence” in Red Shirt demonstrations
I know ‘many’ NM readers struggle to read things carefully.
To say ‘many’ Lao attended the rallies does not mean that most of the people at the rallies were Lao. Even if it was hundreds of Lao they still would have been a miniscule group at these enormous rallies, as Nick Nostitz points out. And as just a miniscule group they seem to have escaped the roving eye of Nick Nostitz.
The latter seems worried that somehow their attendance de-legitimises Red Shirt rallies. Of course, it does not. And I did put ‘foreign influence’ in scare quotes. Indeed it reminds me of a reverse situation after 1975 when Lao were fleeing to camps in Isan as refugees after the revolution. ‘Many’ Thai-Isan passed themselves off as Lao and became ‘refugees’. Did that de-legitimise the Lao refugees’ claims? No.
Of course, the Red Shirt leaders had no need to hire people from Laos, and there is no suggestion that they did. The Lao attended spontaneously. My interest is the rather peculiar political-psychological relationship of the Lao to the Red Shirts. However, I realise this is of only passing interest to those obsessed with Thailand.
The ignorance, or indifference, of some (not ‘many’) NM readers towards Laos I sometimes find unbelievable. For instance, a reader who can ask, ‘would yellow shirt demonstrations be possible in Laos?’ must be living in another universe from me.
Thailand’s invitation to violence
” … They’re always too shocked to hit (on) me …
Have you tried taking morning baths or a change of cologne Chris?
Thorns of the Thai rose
There are must be more of these northeastern stories told by someone heard from someone to someone like your ” …never have the beautiful skin that Queen Sirikit has. The man (he may have been a commie, though) told me that Queen Sirikit had truck-load of fresh milk delivered to the palace daily for her bathing …”.
Pssst come closer Guest! I have a really juicy one you should hear about told by the princess’ driver about the unbelievable tons of food served at the palace every day.