” … I have been personally involved with Thailand for 44 years and it was the 1992 fighting over political power that made me become aware of the rot within the system that your King and his many unsavoury mentors have presided over …”
Why do tell more Dan Brown. 44 years as a foreigner in Thailand and year 1992 was Dan Brown’s ‘turning point’. I will be delighted with an education on that ‘turning point’.
Because I have always been left with the impression that it was because you were ‘enamored of Thaksin’ to account for your passionate venom directed at the Thai monarchy.
However like Chris Beale it appears that Dan Brown is an even more staunch Thai royalist than the ‘yellows’; with their overly concern that Thaksin’s ‘invested interest’ in the CP (also dutifully cursorily mentioned in an Andrew McGreggor Marshall article somewhere) might hit a snag sometime in the future succession. Is that what Kamnan Suthep and his protesters are deceitfully cooking Dan Brown – to thwart Thaksin ‘royalty plans’? Why that’s Lese Majeste isn’t it Dan Brown and you should be raising a justified ruckus to General Prayuth on the matter.
But yet what do you Dan Brown really mean then by ” … until today recognising how the Royals and their sycophantic network of elites, military, bureaucratic hangers-on continue to live like leaches on the backs of the beautiful Thai people…”
You have to make up your minds Dan Brown and Chris Beale. You could not both ‘love the CP’ (because Thaksin mouths so) and bad mouth HMK Bhumibhol (just because he won’t royally pardon your beloved Thaksin).
In the end what will be will be … There’s nothing we can do to stop the ‘ill winds blowing’ to Thailand. Only very exceptional people could think clearly while in rage and/or intoxicatingly lured by the temptations of lucre and power. Perhaps, and this a very big perhaps, General Prayuth could. Or else ‘ill winds’ will hit Thailand like a devastating storm.
And like the Saudis all those ‘respectable’ gun running states will be bending over backwards to supply the Burmese generals with the firearms or thanut (death spirirt), the latest weaponry not just command, control and communications systems, at the end of the day.
Where does the perceived importance by the West of close military ties come in aside the rhetoric of training the Burmese army in ‘humane warfare’ and proper rules of engagement? Is collateral damage part of the modern concepts of ‘humane warfare’?
The parasite has taken over the host since 1962, and has certainly no plans to leave when it has no other host to colonise.
To spend time investigating which Thai politician or other public figure is corrupt is a fool’s errand. It’s all a matter of degree. Better to investigate which Thai public figures are supporting the welfare of working Thais – farmers, etc.
Some folks (bless their delusional hearts) appear to believe that military dictatorship can resolve certain negative features of Thai society (e.g. “to clean up the Justice System”). Hint – it ain’t gonna happen. Someday, hopefully in the not-too-distant future, the generals will be retired in their villas (constitutionally absolved of wrongdoing, and well-fed with ill-gotten public monies.)
The polarisation of Thaksin in Thailand is unbelievable when you look at the facts. Some of the actions I found more dubious regarding human rights in the South/drug dealing where well received by the Thai population.
You have to commend the establishment for one of the greatest smear campaigns of all time to the point where democracy can be continually disregarded using an argument that is solely based upon the influence of one man. Unfortunately, I believe it is impossible to have a logical argument with middle class folk in Bangkok about democratic process whilst Thaksin remains in the picture. The problem is the propaganda machine will probably be ready to reload it when the next opponent arise.
Here in the international community you have every right to love and respect the King for what you see as his many good deeds, just as Rose has every right to condemn the actions that she sees as unjust and a crime against the Thai people.
Outside of Thailand many countries consider ‘freedom of expression’ to be a basic human right. Clearly Thailand is not one of those countries as dozens of current Lesse Majest inmates can attest.
Unfortunately for Rose, the use of her basic human right in the UK has earned her and her family consistent death threats from a veritable army of brainwashed right wing fanatics who have absolutely no tolerance for anyone who wishes to practice freedom of expression.
I think this behavior of threatening death and lengthy incarceration to anyone who merely express a difference of opinion on a blog is what most civilized people around the world find most disturbing.
This extreme behavior really helps the international community understand the mindset of staunch monarchists in Thailand who are apparently incapable of tolerating others who merely wish to practice their basic human right of freedom of expression.
I sincerely hope that some day freedom of expression becomes a right of our nation because on that day a mature public political discussion that includes all if the most powerful political players will be possible.
Until then, we as Thais will have to leave it to foreigners in foreign lands to have all of the open and concise discussions about Thai politics because open political discussion in Thailand that includes all of the key political players is legally considered worse than murder or rape.
If you don’t believe me, then please go to your nearest jail and compare the sentences of convicted murderers, rapists and child molesterers to those who spoke their minds regarding the monarchy’s role in politics.
“What Thailand desperately needs now is not unity but strong institutions that can peacefully manage disagreement.”
This is surely one of the most crucial points, as so helpfully illustrated by the poster named “THAI” who rolls out the usual “you don’t understand Thailand” line.
This line of thinking reminds me of what I hear from my 5-year old child when he asks: “Daddy, are they a goody or a baddie?”
It is all black or white, you are wrong/bad, I am right/good, and there is no prospect of informed critical discussion. Learning by rote has progressed into thinking by formula.
To be honest, I think the formala for foreigners of “you don’t understand Thailand” arises from being the easiest thing to say when they can’t employ the formula that applies to Thai people who think differently, i.e. “You are not a real Thai”.
Obviously it would look somewhat ridiculous if you chided an Australian academic by telling him that he wasn’t Thai.
The focus on vote-buying by those who favour the coup does not stand up to scrutiny at all.
Clearly “vote-buying” had much more influence on the result BEFORE Thaksin, for example in the 1996 (Banharn!) and 1997 elections.
Why is this? Well back then the fragmentation of political parties (with total reliance on the patronage networks of local bosses like Banharn, Newin and Suthep) and the complete absence of any policy platforms naturally facilitated vote-buying.
Thaksin, for all his faults, whether intentionally or not, has undermined the “vote buying” system by having clear policies and a national party presence. It was far from perfect but at least signified progress – and progress will inevitably not be overnight.
The coup-supporting elites, however, seem to want to regress to the old system in order to preserve their power. And no doubt the latest constitution that they come up with will duly seek to re-instate the fragentation of electoral politics.
hear what you say… am interested in what you think about many people in Thailand that have discovered that democracy offers them the chance to be part of selecting people to manage Thai society and if those people don’t seem to be doing good for them then to vote them out at the next election.
Have you thought about Thailand when the King that you respect dies? Have you thought about why Suthep and his anti-democracy mob have been disturbing Bangkok and are happy that the military are now making sure noone in Thailand is allowed to discuss politics and the royal family? And that Suthep’s bosses respect the King so much that they want to change the succession from what he has decreed?
btw… I have been personally involved with Thailand for 44 years and it was the 1992 fighting over political power that made me become aware of the rot within the system that your King and his many unsavoury mentors have presided over.
Andrew’s excellent article misses a very important point. The Justice System is rotten to the core, manipulated by money and cronyism.
I believe (from experience) that 90% of lawyers are crooked. This “rot” infects all levels of Thai society, and is a root cause of dirty politicians. Most Thais avoid the Court system, prefering instead to use “San Tia” (more violence!)
The Military currently have a unique opportunity to clean up the Justice System, with their sweeping powers. The Lawyers Counsel is totally useless at regulating the legal profession. It should be replaced with a new regulator, overseen by the Police and the Military. Lawyers are incapable of regulating themselves; they protect each other, irrespective of the seriousness of their crimes.
Do the Military have the will, or the guts to carry this out, and leave a lasting legacy to uplift Thailand?
[…] North Thailand and the original idea was, after spending a couple of days up there- to cross the new 4th Friendship Bridge over the Mekong, to enter Laos and hang out there for about three weeks till we cross back to […]
I would like to share with you something about this article. I’d lived in the UK for a year and many of my friends still live there too, but you know what we’ve never thought even a second that Thailand had limited our freedom and nothing in Thailand is like North Korea. Because if we are, she wouldn’t be telling the lies like this on any social medias until now.
We have such a great king who has devoted his entire life to develop this country. He could live an easy life and did nothing for the country, but he didn’t. Since I was a little kid, I have always seen him going from east to west, from north to south without any day offs to see how he could help even the land that is far out of every things. Why ? A wealthy man like him could do whatever to make his life easy and full of fun, but he didn’t choose that way. He is not only the symbol of Thailand, but he is also the soul of the nation. It goes without saying that why when your ” British Rose ” has made bad comments with false evidences, use the curse words and show disrespect acts toward the king,she stamped her feet on the King picture on the latest clip, we are all so mad and couldn’t forgive her.
If your ” British Rose ” thinks that she has been doing this for Thai people, so why she choose to hurt our feeling this way ! “Stamping her feet on the king picture, Calling our king a murderer “, Calling our King a dog’s hubby ” Now you tell me again, this is the way of civilized person that you should believe in her ?
We love our king because of what he has been doing for our country not because he is the king with absolute power. If you are not Thai, please stop judging us just because you know this and that from the news.
To be fair, we used to live peacefully under the monarchy, but since someone’s stared to change it without any true knowledge and only based on individual need, both parties don’t want to listens to each other,then it turns to be a turmoil. That ‘ s why the military has to take an action to control the situation and stabilize the economy before it’s getting worse. This is how it is and that ‘s why we are so grateful that the military finally decided to take action.
Please listen to both sides of the story, don’t believe me but also don’t believe her until you know everything clearly then you can judge us. The Thai soldiers dedicate their lives a lots when we were facing natural disasters, please feel free to take a look on internet about what they have been doing for our country so far.
Only what I can tell you now, ” British Rose ” didn’t do this for Thailand and she always say that she loves the Queen of England, so could you please tell her to stay away from my country and thank you so much for her concern about Thailand but no need. We were great before she started her ” try-to-get-attention ” acts which is against the majority of Thais.
.
And for you David, our king and the royal family are healthy and fine. If you are that thoughtful, please mind your own parents health, go back to see if they are still alive and not incapable.
Karma is real ya ” British Rose ” , from what I heard it’s getting back to you, sooner than I was expecting actually.
Watching soldiers machine gunning down protesting civilians of one┬┤s own nation is a watershed experience, like the Sharpville massacre in South-Africa in 1962, that set the ball rolling for international condemnation and isolation, disinvestment and trade boycotts. The face of the resistance was Nelson Mandela.It took 30 years for regime change to be accomplished.
I am afraid that Thailand is probably not that important on the world stage, and human thought span being rather short, once the dust has settled down, and things have returned to “normal”, it will be business as usual.
I suppose that Western investors that could perhaps influence the course of affairs are making calculations of their projected losses if they were to pull out.It is very disheatening to realize that power and money rule the world.
This young lady is courageous to the point of sacrificing her life and happiness for a cause. There are not many of her metal around today.
The Thai military had been undeniably helpless and to this day clueless on how to prevent or contain the near daily mayhem at Thailand’s Muslim Southern ongoing insurgency.
The Red/Black Shirts could quite quickly be a much deadlier and more difficult to identify threat to Thailand’s peace.
General Prayuth should be a realist and make an “about face” now. It is NOT yet too late.
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Thailand’s invitation to violence
Foreigners just can’t understand Thailand, 555.
Thorns of the Thai rose
” … I have been personally involved with Thailand for 44 years and it was the 1992 fighting over political power that made me become aware of the rot within the system that your King and his many unsavoury mentors have presided over …”
Why do tell more Dan Brown. 44 years as a foreigner in Thailand and year 1992 was Dan Brown’s ‘turning point’. I will be delighted with an education on that ‘turning point’.
Because I have always been left with the impression that it was because you were ‘enamored of Thaksin’ to account for your passionate venom directed at the Thai monarchy.
However like Chris Beale it appears that Dan Brown is an even more staunch Thai royalist than the ‘yellows’; with their overly concern that Thaksin’s ‘invested interest’ in the CP (also dutifully cursorily mentioned in an Andrew McGreggor Marshall article somewhere) might hit a snag sometime in the future succession. Is that what Kamnan Suthep and his protesters are deceitfully cooking Dan Brown – to thwart Thaksin ‘royalty plans’? Why that’s Lese Majeste isn’t it Dan Brown and you should be raising a justified ruckus to General Prayuth on the matter.
But yet what do you Dan Brown really mean then by ” … until today recognising how the Royals and their sycophantic network of elites, military, bureaucratic hangers-on continue to live like leaches on the backs of the beautiful Thai people…”
You have to make up your minds Dan Brown and Chris Beale. You could not both ‘love the CP’ (because Thaksin mouths so) and bad mouth HMK Bhumibhol (just because he won’t royally pardon your beloved Thaksin).
In the end what will be will be … There’s nothing we can do to stop the ‘ill winds blowing’ to Thailand. Only very exceptional people could think clearly while in rage and/or intoxicatingly lured by the temptations of lucre and power. Perhaps, and this a very big perhaps, General Prayuth could. Or else ‘ill winds’ will hit Thailand like a devastating storm.
Myanmar’s military: Money and guns
And like the Saudis all those ‘respectable’ gun running states will be bending over backwards to supply the Burmese generals with the firearms or thanut (death spirirt), the latest weaponry not just command, control and communications systems, at the end of the day.
Where does the perceived importance by the West of close military ties come in aside the rhetoric of training the Burmese army in ‘humane warfare’ and proper rules of engagement? Is collateral damage part of the modern concepts of ‘humane warfare’?
The parasite has taken over the host since 1962, and has certainly no plans to leave when it has no other host to colonise.
Thailand’s information war
I have no problem with your comment. What I object to is knee-jerk reactions and ad hominem attacks.
Thailand, what next?
To spend time investigating which Thai politician or other public figure is corrupt is a fool’s errand. It’s all a matter of degree. Better to investigate which Thai public figures are supporting the welfare of working Thais – farmers, etc.
Thailand’s invitation to violence
Some folks (bless their delusional hearts) appear to believe that military dictatorship can resolve certain negative features of Thai society (e.g. “to clean up the Justice System”). Hint – it ain’t gonna happen. Someday, hopefully in the not-too-distant future, the generals will be retired in their villas (constitutionally absolved of wrongdoing, and well-fed with ill-gotten public monies.)
Thailand, what next?
The polarisation of Thaksin in Thailand is unbelievable when you look at the facts. Some of the actions I found more dubious regarding human rights in the South/drug dealing where well received by the Thai population.
You have to commend the establishment for one of the greatest smear campaigns of all time to the point where democracy can be continually disregarded using an argument that is solely based upon the influence of one man. Unfortunately, I believe it is impossible to have a logical argument with middle class folk in Bangkok about democratic process whilst Thaksin remains in the picture. The problem is the propaganda machine will probably be ready to reload it when the next opponent arise.
Thorns of the Thai rose
Thai Tulip,
Here in the international community you have every right to love and respect the King for what you see as his many good deeds, just as Rose has every right to condemn the actions that she sees as unjust and a crime against the Thai people.
Outside of Thailand many countries consider ‘freedom of expression’ to be a basic human right. Clearly Thailand is not one of those countries as dozens of current Lesse Majest inmates can attest.
Unfortunately for Rose, the use of her basic human right in the UK has earned her and her family consistent death threats from a veritable army of brainwashed right wing fanatics who have absolutely no tolerance for anyone who wishes to practice freedom of expression.
I think this behavior of threatening death and lengthy incarceration to anyone who merely express a difference of opinion on a blog is what most civilized people around the world find most disturbing.
This extreme behavior really helps the international community understand the mindset of staunch monarchists in Thailand who are apparently incapable of tolerating others who merely wish to practice their basic human right of freedom of expression.
I sincerely hope that some day freedom of expression becomes a right of our nation because on that day a mature public political discussion that includes all if the most powerful political players will be possible.
Until then, we as Thais will have to leave it to foreigners in foreign lands to have all of the open and concise discussions about Thai politics because open political discussion in Thailand that includes all of the key political players is legally considered worse than murder or rape.
If you don’t believe me, then please go to your nearest jail and compare the sentences of convicted murderers, rapists and child molesterers to those who spoke their minds regarding the monarchy’s role in politics.
Thailand’s invitation to violence
“What Thailand desperately needs now is not unity but strong institutions that can peacefully manage disagreement.”
This is surely one of the most crucial points, as so helpfully illustrated by the poster named “THAI” who rolls out the usual “you don’t understand Thailand” line.
This line of thinking reminds me of what I hear from my 5-year old child when he asks: “Daddy, are they a goody or a baddie?”
It is all black or white, you are wrong/bad, I am right/good, and there is no prospect of informed critical discussion. Learning by rote has progressed into thinking by formula.
To be honest, I think the formala for foreigners of “you don’t understand Thailand” arises from being the easiest thing to say when they can’t employ the formula that applies to Thai people who think differently, i.e. “You are not a real Thai”.
Obviously it would look somewhat ridiculous if you chided an Australian academic by telling him that he wasn’t Thai.
Thailand, what next?
The focus on vote-buying by those who favour the coup does not stand up to scrutiny at all.
Clearly “vote-buying” had much more influence on the result BEFORE Thaksin, for example in the 1996 (Banharn!) and 1997 elections.
Why is this? Well back then the fragmentation of political parties (with total reliance on the patronage networks of local bosses like Banharn, Newin and Suthep) and the complete absence of any policy platforms naturally facilitated vote-buying.
Thaksin, for all his faults, whether intentionally or not, has undermined the “vote buying” system by having clear policies and a national party presence. It was far from perfect but at least signified progress – and progress will inevitably not be overnight.
The coup-supporting elites, however, seem to want to regress to the old system in order to preserve their power. And no doubt the latest constitution that they come up with will duly seek to re-instate the fragentation of electoral politics.
Thorns of the Thai rose
Thai Tulip
hear what you say… am interested in what you think about many people in Thailand that have discovered that democracy offers them the chance to be part of selecting people to manage Thai society and if those people don’t seem to be doing good for them then to vote them out at the next election.
Have you thought about Thailand when the King that you respect dies? Have you thought about why Suthep and his anti-democracy mob have been disturbing Bangkok and are happy that the military are now making sure noone in Thailand is allowed to discuss politics and the royal family? And that Suthep’s bosses respect the King so much that they want to change the succession from what he has decreed?
btw… I have been personally involved with Thailand for 44 years and it was the 1992 fighting over political power that made me become aware of the rot within the system that your King and his many unsavoury mentors have presided over.
Thorns of the Thai rose
Pray for you Rose. I’m sure the truth will prevail! The righteous will be victorious! May you be well and happy always.
Thorns of the Thai rose
[…] http://www.newmandala.org/2014/05/26/thorns-of-the-thai-rose/ […]
Thailand’s invitation to violence
Andrew’s excellent article misses a very important point. The Justice System is rotten to the core, manipulated by money and cronyism.
I believe (from experience) that 90% of lawyers are crooked. This “rot” infects all levels of Thai society, and is a root cause of dirty politicians. Most Thais avoid the Court system, prefering instead to use “San Tia” (more violence!)
The Military currently have a unique opportunity to clean up the Justice System, with their sweeping powers. The Lawyers Counsel is totally useless at regulating the legal profession. It should be replaced with a new regulator, overseen by the Police and the Military. Lawyers are incapable of regulating themselves; they protect each other, irrespective of the seriousness of their crimes.
Do the Military have the will, or the guts to carry this out, and leave a lasting legacy to uplift Thailand?
New Thai-Lao Friendship Bridge across the Mekong
[…] North Thailand and the original idea was, after spending a couple of days up there- to cross the new 4th Friendship Bridge over the Mekong, to enter Laos and hang out there for about three weeks till we cross back to […]
Thailand, what next?
Thanks, I will send to your email . I have also left message in your facebook.
Thorns of the Thai rose
David Brown;
I would like to share with you something about this article. I’d lived in the UK for a year and many of my friends still live there too, but you know what we’ve never thought even a second that Thailand had limited our freedom and nothing in Thailand is like North Korea. Because if we are, she wouldn’t be telling the lies like this on any social medias until now.
We have such a great king who has devoted his entire life to develop this country. He could live an easy life and did nothing for the country, but he didn’t. Since I was a little kid, I have always seen him going from east to west, from north to south without any day offs to see how he could help even the land that is far out of every things. Why ? A wealthy man like him could do whatever to make his life easy and full of fun, but he didn’t choose that way. He is not only the symbol of Thailand, but he is also the soul of the nation. It goes without saying that why when your ” British Rose ” has made bad comments with false evidences, use the curse words and show disrespect acts toward the king,she stamped her feet on the King picture on the latest clip, we are all so mad and couldn’t forgive her.
If your ” British Rose ” thinks that she has been doing this for Thai people, so why she choose to hurt our feeling this way ! “Stamping her feet on the king picture, Calling our king a murderer “, Calling our King a dog’s hubby ” Now you tell me again, this is the way of civilized person that you should believe in her ?
We love our king because of what he has been doing for our country not because he is the king with absolute power. If you are not Thai, please stop judging us just because you know this and that from the news.
To be fair, we used to live peacefully under the monarchy, but since someone’s stared to change it without any true knowledge and only based on individual need, both parties don’t want to listens to each other,then it turns to be a turmoil. That ‘ s why the military has to take an action to control the situation and stabilize the economy before it’s getting worse. This is how it is and that ‘s why we are so grateful that the military finally decided to take action.
Please listen to both sides of the story, don’t believe me but also don’t believe her until you know everything clearly then you can judge us. The Thai soldiers dedicate their lives a lots when we were facing natural disasters, please feel free to take a look on internet about what they have been doing for our country so far.
Only what I can tell you now, ” British Rose ” didn’t do this for Thailand and she always say that she loves the Queen of England, so could you please tell her to stay away from my country and thank you so much for her concern about Thailand but no need. We were great before she started her ” try-to-get-attention ” acts which is against the majority of Thais.
.
And for you David, our king and the royal family are healthy and fine. If you are that thoughtful, please mind your own parents health, go back to see if they are still alive and not incapable.
Karma is real ya ” British Rose ” , from what I heard it’s getting back to you, sooner than I was expecting actually.
Thorns of the Thai rose
Watching soldiers machine gunning down protesting civilians of one┬┤s own nation is a watershed experience, like the Sharpville massacre in South-Africa in 1962, that set the ball rolling for international condemnation and isolation, disinvestment and trade boycotts. The face of the resistance was Nelson Mandela.It took 30 years for regime change to be accomplished.
I am afraid that Thailand is probably not that important on the world stage, and human thought span being rather short, once the dust has settled down, and things have returned to “normal”, it will be business as usual.
I suppose that Western investors that could perhaps influence the course of affairs are making calculations of their projected losses if they were to pull out.It is very disheatening to realize that power and money rule the world.
This young lady is courageous to the point of sacrificing her life and happiness for a cause. There are not many of her metal around today.
Thailand’s invitation to violence
The Thai military had been undeniably helpless and to this day clueless on how to prevent or contain the near daily mayhem at Thailand’s Muslim Southern ongoing insurgency.
The Red/Black Shirts could quite quickly be a much deadlier and more difficult to identify threat to Thailand’s peace.
General Prayuth should be a realist and make an “about face” now. It is NOT yet too late.
Sukarno’s two bodies
A beautifully written and devastatingly effective critique of Prabowo. Thank you for the great read.