” … When they found a red T-shirt and a membership card from Gotee’s group, they forcibly brought him to one of their tents. Kampong said that there they proceeded to beat him. Then they poured water over him, and tortured him with electroshocks. They also burned plastic, and let the burning drops drip on his body, constantly asking him to admit that he was hired by Gotee. Kampong said that the torture went on until 19 January 2014, when at about 4 am normal protesters found him, and led him out of the protest area. He then made his way to Gotee’s stage. Gotee then accompanied Kampong to file a case with police and to the hospital …”
What’s the point of the torture (for two days?) of a garbage man … to get a confession that he was a Gotee man? What valuable information could one get from torturing a Red garbage man, huh? Who the f… is Gotee anyway, never heard of him until this Nostitz story.
This torture story is as fishy as Bialao’s Lao revolution … and as fishy as Nostitz Rajmangala Stadium photo of the captured shooter (remember him?) who had vanished.
It was my decision to name the Palestinian in a way that he/she could not be identified. You will find this is often standard practice in these delicate situations.
For example, when I visited one of the Refugee Centres in Bangkok to discuss an issue related to the interview I was requested to withhold real names since the issue was one of advocacy.
I am not an expert in these things and see no reason to question the practice.
Can we get more information about Buddha Issara? I thought he’s based in the same town as Nenkham, which would put him in the Northeast. How did he end up on the wrong side of the revolution?
It is so interesting to hear the Shinawatra clan defenders rail against perceived hedonism in the Thai urban middle-class, but such individuals would praise the middle-class for attaining affluence in any other Asian nation, but not Thailand. The possible inference, given no concurrent criticisms of Malaysian, Singaporean, Filipino, Chinese, Japanese, Korean or Taiwanese middle-class individuals, might be that Thai middle-class people somehow attained their status more underhandedly, with less effort or perhaps
more hedonistically, than their counterparts
elsewhere. Given no such comparisons with, say, Malaysian or Singaporean middle-class voters, and no obvious empirical evidence of a cultural predilection among urban Thais towards undemocratic practices not found elsewhere, the all-too-frequent criticisms of urban Thai middle-class voters, seems far more to do with whom they may choose to vote for, than anything inherent in the voters themselves, as I see no such comparable (entirely subjective) negative opinion assigned to their counterparts elsewhere in Asia, at least not on New Mandala.
Indeed, even as they massacre Pakistani Shiites, Pakistan takes in Afghans. And as Iran hangs Jews and Bahai’s, will take in other Muslims. I guess one man’s refugee is another dictator’s victim, eh ?
Pakistan hosts millions of Afghan refugees. It has the largest refugee population in the world. Iran also hosts millions of Afghans and has the second highest number of refugees in the world.
The richer ME countries employ millions of people from around the world. If they choose to not take in more refugees then that is their right. Just because they share a religion does not make them responsible for the welfare of every Muslim on the planet.
While there is no denying that the plight of the Rohingya is dire, unfortunately with the best will in the world this ethnic and religious divide may prove impossible to bridge. The differences are all too apparent outwardly as well as profoundly, more so than in Northern Ireland or Sri Lanka, even that between the Latinos and Anglos in the US.
What tends to be overlooked after a casual reference is not just the enduring historical animosity but the controversy in the coining of the term Rohingya itself unheard of by so many of the mainstream Burmese until recent times whereas they are aware of a disappearing Mongoloid pygmy tribe in the icy far north of the country. Sadly not the case for the Rakhine who had been on the receiving end of ethnic cleansing in the northern townships of the remote Arakan coast. Little wonder Thein Sein wanted deportation, and ASSK remains evasive.
But yes, the power relationship changed after the British left and more so when the military took over. The wealth of the cronies and the military elite is indicative of the same, excluding the majority of the peoples of Burma not just Muslims. The Chinese and other foreign powers complicating the picture may merely add fuel to the fire. The Burmese expression – a flaming torch in one hand, a fire bucket in the other – aptly describes the foreign policy of the superpowers east or west.
Gesture politics to reconciliation aside voluntary resettlement and dispersion across the country may be the only way out after defusing the situation in which direction neither the regime (lacking the political will or having a different agenda altogether similar to its dealings with the armed ethnic groups) nor the well meaning foreign bodies, states and NGOs alike, have made any headway.
It is incredibly naive that many people including the Guest Contributor Matt Schissler himself honestly believe the peaceful coexistence with Muslim minority who are basically Bengali-speaking descendants of Bangladeshi-Migrants is eventually achievable in predominantly-Buddhist Burma.
The enormous Islamic elephant sitting in the room is the neighboring Bangladesh which is slowly sinking and trying to find a place large enough for her nearly 180 million Muslims within next 30 or 40 years.
Burma which is 5 times bigger than Bangladesh with only 60 million population is a perfect place to move in.
Can anyone imagine what horrible things 180 million Muslims could do to a native Buddhist people of only 60 millions. History wasn’t really kind to the Buddhists at all.
Pakistan, Afghanistan, Indonesia, and Malaysia are the solid proof of that Islamic horror descended onto native Buddhist people.
For them Bangladeshis to establish a toe-hold in neighbouring Burma’s Arakan through so-called Rohingya (Bengali-Muslims) is not a dream but a real strategic plan.
From there they will swallow alive whole Buddhist Burma like they have been doing to the Yakhine-Buddhists for many decades since 1942.
And Burmese Buddhists (especially the Sangha or Monks) know that very well and they have been fighting back for years and years since 1962 as the Muslim numbers exponentially grow in Burma from less than 4% in 1962 to now more than 15% or even nearly 20% according to some aggressive Islamic organizations.
My fellow Burmese-Buddhists are now fighting back for the ultimate survival of their race, religion, and culture and thus the peaceful coexistence with Bengali-Muslims is not a real option for them as long as that existential threat from Bangladesh is right there on the Western Border.
You get “two thumbs” up from me. You could
not be more correct.
“Only a matter of time … Yingluck’s regime is on the verge of imploding. No ifs and buts. No more Thaksins and no more Yinglucks … that is how this ‘Middle Class Rage’ story will end.”
Actually, the story will end with Thaksin seeking exile in Beijing or Taipei, possibly
Singapore, where (God/Buddha willing) he will remain indefinitely. His money, on the other hand, will remain in Zurich, well-protected from appropriately prying eyes.
As for his sister, the unschooled school-girl, her lessons in leadership (or non-leadership) will not be easily forgotten, both by her and the Thai people.
Do you preface Suthep’s name with fugitive when you write about him? You should, because that is what he is at the moment as charges have been laid against him (as they would in any other country) and he has not made an appearance to answer them.
Very very wishful thinking that Yuth. Thaksin is far too bone-headedly stubborn (& stupid) to be deflected by a few discontented Bangkok grannies. Having(perhaps)got rid of him a few years from now, you will then have to also think about ridding yourself of the other set of succession parasites.
She should have died hereafter;
There would have been a time for such a word.
Tomorrow, and tomorrow, and tomorrow,
Creeps in this petty pace from day to day,
To the last syllable of recorded time;
And all our yesterdays have lighted fools
The way to dusty death. Out, out, brief candle!
Life’s but a walking shadow, a poor player
That struts and frets his hour upon the stage
And then is heard no more. It is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury
Signifying nothing. – Macbeth (Act 5, Scene 5, lines 17-28)
I don’t see the Thai middle class’ rage against the Thaksin/Yingluck & gang diminishing even a fraction anytime soon or ever. Yingluck’s ‘State of Emergency’ only hardens the resolve of the ‘Uproot’ protesters to rid Thailand of the Thaksins/Yinglucks corruptive and toxic influence.
Because Yingluck is a mere puppet to the fugitive/criminal Thaksin, her legitimacy to rule had been completely eroded. The Thai middle class is in the right to demand a ‘government for the people’, not a ‘government to service the Shinawatras and their kleptomanic gang’. Thaksin and Yingluck had completely manipulated, corrupted and toxified democracy to its break-down, thus the ‘Uproot’ peoples anger against the Thaksins/Yinglucks rages on with more intensity each day.
With Bangkok’s notorious thug Chalerm Yubamrung now being charged with enforcing Yingluck’s ‘State of Emergency’, it is easy to gauge the near comic desperation of the Thaksin/Yingluck camp.
Only a matter of time … Yingluck’s regime is on the verge of imploding. No ifs and buts. No more Thaksins and no more Yinglucks … that is how this ‘Middle Class Rage’ story will end.
QUOTE:In order to bring the Bangkok middle class back into the democratic flock, …..UNQUOTE
Shaky start. There are plenty of flocks in Thailand, but it highly doubtful that any of them have ever been even remotely approaching ‘democratic’. It also implies that democratic things are happening outside Bangkok, but the Bangkok middle classes have previously opted out of them. This seems like painting a complete Shangrila theater backdrop to me. All the evidence that I have is that most rural voters’ idea of democracy has always been what they are told what to do by the local kamnan – who is usually allied to one of the so-called strongmen of Thai politics. But are the Bangkok middle classes really that much different to their rural brethren. Not really! They also pretty much have to be told what to do – as is much in evidence right now. About the only real difference is that the Bangkok lot continue to want strongmen who keep the rural population in awe and economic reverence of their centralized hegemony. Somewhat unfortunately for such urbanites (I find little to like about them myself), the (so-called) Democrats have been asleep on the job for several decades, and have only recently woken up to find they have been almost completely usurped by a bunch of up-and-coming rural rice merchants in the old old local game of elected kleptocracy.
Many people have said that Kong Lae was Lao Theung, but which ethnic group exactly? Sad to see that there has been no obituary in any major newspaper for Kong Lae, given that he graced the cover of TIME 50 years ago. Shows how everyone dumped him for being an idealist. Will Kong Lae’s relatives have his remains brought back to Laos? I noticed last year that Inpeng Suryadhay had a memorial on Khong Island. Seems the LDPR is happy to let relatives of “patikan” build graves.
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Bangkok’s last Red Shirt fortress
He’s the abbot at a wat in Nakorn Pathom that keeps caged tigers for tourists to pose with. Other monks have filed a police complaint against him. http://www.bangkokpost.com/breakingnews/390695/luang-pu-buddha-issara-targetted-by-buddhist-organisation-of-thailand
Bangkok’s last Red Shirt fortress
” … When they found a red T-shirt and a membership card from Gotee’s group, they forcibly brought him to one of their tents. Kampong said that there they proceeded to beat him. Then they poured water over him, and tortured him with electroshocks. They also burned plastic, and let the burning drops drip on his body, constantly asking him to admit that he was hired by Gotee. Kampong said that the torture went on until 19 January 2014, when at about 4 am normal protesters found him, and led him out of the protest area. He then made his way to Gotee’s stage. Gotee then accompanied Kampong to file a case with police and to the hospital …”
What’s the point of the torture (for two days?) of a garbage man … to get a confession that he was a Gotee man? What valuable information could one get from torturing a Red garbage man, huh? Who the f… is Gotee anyway, never heard of him until this Nostitz story.
This torture story is as fishy as Bialao’s Lao revolution … and as fishy as Nostitz Rajmangala Stadium photo of the captured shooter (remember him?) who had vanished.
Interview with a Palestinian refugee in Thailand
It was my decision to name the Palestinian in a way that he/she could not be identified. You will find this is often standard practice in these delicate situations.
For example, when I visited one of the Refugee Centres in Bangkok to discuss an issue related to the interview I was requested to withhold real names since the issue was one of advocacy.
I am not an expert in these things and see no reason to question the practice.
Interview with a Palestinian refugee in Thailand
True dat. Is there a reason he’s anonymous? “Raheem” and no last name? Is his life in danger for being a refugee? Just askin…
Bangkok’s last Red Shirt fortress
Can we get more information about Buddha Issara? I thought he’s based in the same town as Nenkham, which would put him in the Northeast. How did he end up on the wrong side of the revolution?
Middle class rage threatens democracy
It is so interesting to hear the Shinawatra clan defenders rail against perceived hedonism in the Thai urban middle-class, but such individuals would praise the middle-class for attaining affluence in any other Asian nation, but not Thailand. The possible inference, given no concurrent criticisms of Malaysian, Singaporean, Filipino, Chinese, Japanese, Korean or Taiwanese middle-class individuals, might be that Thai middle-class people somehow attained their status more underhandedly, with less effort or perhaps
more hedonistically, than their counterparts
elsewhere. Given no such comparisons with, say, Malaysian or Singaporean middle-class voters, and no obvious empirical evidence of a cultural predilection among urban Thais towards undemocratic practices not found elsewhere, the all-too-frequent criticisms of urban Thai middle-class voters, seems far more to do with whom they may choose to vote for, than anything inherent in the voters themselves, as I see no such comparable (entirely subjective) negative opinion assigned to their counterparts elsewhere in Asia, at least not on New Mandala.
Interview with a Palestinian refugee in Thailand
Indeed, even as they massacre Pakistani Shiites, Pakistan takes in Afghans. And as Iran hangs Jews and Bahai’s, will take in other Muslims. I guess one man’s refugee is another dictator’s victim, eh ?
Middle class rage threatens democracy
Exactly what the PDRC wants, that is to “reform” the election process such that the “proper political party” will win and the PTP cannot.
Interview with a Palestinian refugee in Thailand
I have to say this refugee is very articulate.
Interview with a Palestinian refugee in Thailand
Pakistan hosts millions of Afghan refugees. It has the largest refugee population in the world. Iran also hosts millions of Afghans and has the second highest number of refugees in the world.
The richer ME countries employ millions of people from around the world. If they choose to not take in more refugees then that is their right. Just because they share a religion does not make them responsible for the welfare of every Muslim on the planet.
Sleeping dogs
While there is no denying that the plight of the Rohingya is dire, unfortunately with the best will in the world this ethnic and religious divide may prove impossible to bridge. The differences are all too apparent outwardly as well as profoundly, more so than in Northern Ireland or Sri Lanka, even that between the Latinos and Anglos in the US.
What tends to be overlooked after a casual reference is not just the enduring historical animosity but the controversy in the coining of the term Rohingya itself unheard of by so many of the mainstream Burmese until recent times whereas they are aware of a disappearing Mongoloid pygmy tribe in the icy far north of the country. Sadly not the case for the Rakhine who had been on the receiving end of ethnic cleansing in the northern townships of the remote Arakan coast. Little wonder Thein Sein wanted deportation, and ASSK remains evasive.
But yes, the power relationship changed after the British left and more so when the military took over. The wealth of the cronies and the military elite is indicative of the same, excluding the majority of the peoples of Burma not just Muslims. The Chinese and other foreign powers complicating the picture may merely add fuel to the fire. The Burmese expression – a flaming torch in one hand, a fire bucket in the other – aptly describes the foreign policy of the superpowers east or west.
Gesture politics to reconciliation aside voluntary resettlement and dispersion across the country may be the only way out after defusing the situation in which direction neither the regime (lacking the political will or having a different agenda altogether similar to its dealings with the armed ethnic groups) nor the well meaning foreign bodies, states and NGOs alike, have made any headway.
Sleeping dogs
It is incredibly naive that many people including the Guest Contributor Matt Schissler himself honestly believe the peaceful coexistence with Muslim minority who are basically Bengali-speaking descendants of Bangladeshi-Migrants is eventually achievable in predominantly-Buddhist Burma.
The enormous Islamic elephant sitting in the room is the neighboring Bangladesh which is slowly sinking and trying to find a place large enough for her nearly 180 million Muslims within next 30 or 40 years.
Burma which is 5 times bigger than Bangladesh with only 60 million population is a perfect place to move in.
Can anyone imagine what horrible things 180 million Muslims could do to a native Buddhist people of only 60 millions. History wasn’t really kind to the Buddhists at all.
Pakistan, Afghanistan, Indonesia, and Malaysia are the solid proof of that Islamic horror descended onto native Buddhist people.
For them Bangladeshis to establish a toe-hold in neighbouring Burma’s Arakan through so-called Rohingya (Bengali-Muslims) is not a dream but a real strategic plan.
From there they will swallow alive whole Buddhist Burma like they have been doing to the Yakhine-Buddhists for many decades since 1942.
And Burmese Buddhists (especially the Sangha or Monks) know that very well and they have been fighting back for years and years since 1962 as the Muslim numbers exponentially grow in Burma from less than 4% in 1962 to now more than 15% or even nearly 20% according to some aggressive Islamic organizations.
My fellow Burmese-Buddhists are now fighting back for the ultimate survival of their race, religion, and culture and thus the peaceful coexistence with Bengali-Muslims is not a real option for them as long as that existential threat from Bangladesh is right there on the Western Border.
Middle class rage threatens democracy
Yuth,
You took the words right out of my mouth.
You get “two thumbs” up from me. You could
not be more correct.
“Only a matter of time … Yingluck’s regime is on the verge of imploding. No ifs and buts. No more Thaksins and no more Yinglucks … that is how this ‘Middle Class Rage’ story will end.”
Actually, the story will end with Thaksin seeking exile in Beijing or Taipei, possibly
Singapore, where (God/Buddha willing) he will remain indefinitely. His money, on the other hand, will remain in Zurich, well-protected from appropriately prying eyes.
As for his sister, the unschooled school-girl, her lessons in leadership (or non-leadership) will not be easily forgotten, both by her and the Thai people.
Middle class rage threatens democracy
Do you preface Suthep’s name with fugitive when you write about him? You should, because that is what he is at the moment as charges have been laid against him (as they would in any other country) and he has not made an appearance to answer them.
Middle class rage threatens democracy
Very very wishful thinking that Yuth. Thaksin is far too bone-headedly stubborn (& stupid) to be deflected by a few discontented Bangkok grannies. Having(perhaps)got rid of him a few years from now, you will then have to also think about ridding yourself of the other set of succession parasites.
Middle class rage threatens democracy
She should have died hereafter;
There would have been a time for such a word.
Tomorrow, and tomorrow, and tomorrow,
Creeps in this petty pace from day to day,
To the last syllable of recorded time;
And all our yesterdays have lighted fools
The way to dusty death. Out, out, brief candle!
Life’s but a walking shadow, a poor player
That struts and frets his hour upon the stage
And then is heard no more. It is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury
Signifying nothing. – Macbeth (Act 5, Scene 5, lines 17-28)
Middle class rage threatens democracy
I don’t see the Thai middle class’ rage against the Thaksin/Yingluck & gang diminishing even a fraction anytime soon or ever. Yingluck’s ‘State of Emergency’ only hardens the resolve of the ‘Uproot’ protesters to rid Thailand of the Thaksins/Yinglucks corruptive and toxic influence.
Because Yingluck is a mere puppet to the fugitive/criminal Thaksin, her legitimacy to rule had been completely eroded. The Thai middle class is in the right to demand a ‘government for the people’, not a ‘government to service the Shinawatras and their kleptomanic gang’. Thaksin and Yingluck had completely manipulated, corrupted and toxified democracy to its break-down, thus the ‘Uproot’ peoples anger against the Thaksins/Yinglucks rages on with more intensity each day.
With Bangkok’s notorious thug Chalerm Yubamrung now being charged with enforcing Yingluck’s ‘State of Emergency’, it is easy to gauge the near comic desperation of the Thaksin/Yingluck camp.
Only a matter of time … Yingluck’s regime is on the verge of imploding. No ifs and buts. No more Thaksins and no more Yinglucks … that is how this ‘Middle Class Rage’ story will end.
Middle class rage threatens democracy
QUOTE:In order to bring the Bangkok middle class back into the democratic flock, …..UNQUOTE
Shaky start. There are plenty of flocks in Thailand, but it highly doubtful that any of them have ever been even remotely approaching ‘democratic’. It also implies that democratic things are happening outside Bangkok, but the Bangkok middle classes have previously opted out of them. This seems like painting a complete Shangrila theater backdrop to me. All the evidence that I have is that most rural voters’ idea of democracy has always been what they are told what to do by the local kamnan – who is usually allied to one of the so-called strongmen of Thai politics. But are the Bangkok middle classes really that much different to their rural brethren. Not really! They also pretty much have to be told what to do – as is much in evidence right now. About the only real difference is that the Bangkok lot continue to want strongmen who keep the rural population in awe and economic reverence of their centralized hegemony. Somewhat unfortunately for such urbanites (I find little to like about them myself), the (so-called) Democrats have been asleep on the job for several decades, and have only recently woken up to find they have been almost completely usurped by a bunch of up-and-coming rural rice merchants in the old old local game of elected kleptocracy.
The colonel from Savannakhet
Many people have said that Kong Lae was Lao Theung, but which ethnic group exactly? Sad to see that there has been no obituary in any major newspaper for Kong Lae, given that he graced the cover of TIME 50 years ago. Shows how everyone dumped him for being an idealist. Will Kong Lae’s relatives have his remains brought back to Laos? I noticed last year that Inpeng Suryadhay had a memorial on Khong Island. Seems the LDPR is happy to let relatives of “patikan” build graves.
Middle class rage threatens democracy
Privately and preferably individually, we do talk about it in Thai – albeit usually not at length.