[…] the claim that “rally stages are packed every night with people from all regions” is not accurate at all. That said, we do not doubt that “massive amounts of donations continue to pour in” to […]
The tax part is fully legal. The sale itself is technically legal- through use of multiple layers of proxies and nominees. The use of such of course raise the question of ethics. Then again, every major foreign companies investing in Thailand is in as deep as Temasek holdings investing in Shincorp. Most relevant case will probably be Dtac (40% foreign own b4 law amend) and TA Orange (49%).
The amending of the law to up cap on foreign ownership from 25% to 49% just prior to sale, raise questions of conflict of interests, even if it benefits Dtac n Orange more than Shin Corp at the point of amendment.
Then again, Thaksin claims he is selling Shin Corp to avoid future conflict of interest being PM and owning majority shares in a major player of the telco industry.(ie satellite deal with Cambodia)
—
Then again it was about that time I was disposing of my various telco shares, so it could also be business decision. BUT…
—
Politically, I was never able to make sense of dumping all 49% at that time in one go. Why Temasek was the easier part- available cash. There were other postulations re involvement of privy councils and others, that pushed this particular clearance move, or percieved clearance move. I suppose that leads back to your question re: who own the shares after Temasek unloaded them. I am curious too. If not for the 06 coup, the bulk of it might have returned to square one.
“vote for any political parties willing to compete in the democratic arena.”
That my friend is the key statement. Sadly we have one side who always had the military backing and had always resorted to coups to gain power. This bunch is unwilling to change their outlook (maybe can’t)so is not willing to compete in the democratic arena.
Maybe I am thinking with my reptilian brain, but is seems the only way this bunch would change is for the current leadership to be decimated (Kim Yong Un style)
Thanks Matt. Thought there might be a reason. Some folks aren’t heeding, or don’t understand, the rules, however. Some comments are leaking out attributed.
On a more fundamental level, both sides are guilty of maintaining the dominance of Confucian-based formal education at all levels, which is largely responsible for the pervasive weakness of critical thinking skills in the populace, because an education system which places more importance on group activities than individual academic merit will have a very strong tendency to channel their intelligence more in that direction. hence the relatively easy manipulation and mobilization of political opinion, despite the ‘quietist’ nature of Thais in general.
Those of us in the middle between the extremists and the blind are still able to respect differences of opinion enough to have a dialogue. Not always, but almost always: a simple rider in Thai – the equivalent of ‘it depends on your opinion’ – is effective in maintaining civility.
If you followed the story in the local press, as I did, you would have understood that Samak would have probably gotten off with a slap on the wrist IF he hadn’t perjured himself while giving evidence. So instead of a jail term for perjury, he lost his job. Moreover, Samaks’s cooking show has always been a blatant excuse for him to air his facist political views. This was the guy as Interior Minister in 1974 (?) urged troops in helicopter gunships to shoot hundreds of student demonstrators at Thammasat U.
Agreed perceptions do matter. Those on the receiving end are of course entitled to take umbrage. Indians are still called Indians in the English language although Red Indians are now Native Americans or First Nations. Asians mean different things on opposite shores of the Atlantic, a generic term used for a disparate group from the same region of the world. Likewise kalar was a generic term for all races West of our borders.
It’s not just Kalar and Tayoke names given to children born to Bamar families, also Caucasian looking kids may be named BoBo or Boma. Bo-pyu is a popular name for a puppy.
Yes, dog or rotten is a popular qualifier as in khway kalar or tayoke poke used in anger. You can’t legislate swear words out of the national lexicon, but you can educate people and ban it from broadcast and print media except in the right context in fiction.
Crucial as grassroots efforts are in defusing and resolving communal tensions, the role of high profile persons such as ASSK (not helping) must help. Kudos to Sitagu Sayadaw for his stance in this disgraceful state of affairs.
Speaking to reporters during a discussion break, Wirathu said religious tensions would not be eased by “high level” discussions like the one that took place on Sunday, and called for more dialogue “on the ground.” Wirathu added that he would help by educating Arakanese Buddhists on the rule of law in the hopes of avoiding future violent confrontation.
Several foreign embassies also sent representatives to participate in Sunday’s discussion. The US Embassy’s deputy chief of mission, Virginia E. Murray, said solutions to the country’s religious divisions would ultimately need to come from within.
“It’s not for the international community, it’s not for outsiders to say what happens next, but what we can do is offer that support and help you ask the questions that you yourselves perhaps need to answer,” she said.
In a real democracy, laws are made by the people’s elected representatives, or by the people at referenda, and by nobody else. A democratic constitution ensures that. A grossly undemocratic constitution, like Thailand’s, made by men with guns and their allies, oppresses the majority of people and their representatives. Thailand’s present constitution was approved by the electorate, but in a gun-at-the-head, take-it-or-leave-it deal that left it full of oppressive laws. Not only that, it provides for courts that oppress the people’s representatives because their judges are corrupted by royal patronage. In a democracy like Australia, the Constitution was framed by gatherings of people who met at many places throughout the country, in a genuine attempt to shape something that matched the moral sentiments and aspirations of as many of the people as possible.
In a real democracy, if the majority don’t like the laws their representatives are making, they throw them out of office AT ELECTIONS. If most of them want part of the constitution changed, they can do it in a referendum. It’s not perfect. It’s not possible to please everybody. Pleasing the majority is the best you can do. But it produces much more stability and prosperity than Thailand has at the moment. I am not trying to thrust my system on the people of Thailand. I am indicating examples of the way they can free themselves from much of the oppression they suffer now, by exerting adequate counter-control on those who govern them.
I can understand your emotions. The king of Thailand is well entitled to the love of the Thai people. Every time since 1947, when Thailand was in turmoil and chaos reigned the streets, the king brought harmony and well being to the Thai people (may be with some help from others). With his wisdom and understanding of what is right and good in combination to nearly divine moral righteousness, he reminded the conflicting parties that Thais should not fight Thais like in 1973, 1976, 1981,1992, 2006 etc. Thailand is waiting that the father again solves the problems the children created with their whimsical quarrels.
Here at New Mandala there is a paucity of the subjects on:
1) Muslim minority behavior as well as Majority Buddhist Largess.
2) Economic deprivation factors.
Matt
If an NGO worker tearful comment on the plight of the minority, certainly there must be quotable minority atrocious behavior against the Buddhist as well as Buddhist generosity towards Muslim.
As much as Kalar Muslim are portray as victims within Buddhist Myanmar there are much more doing well. Mainly due to better economic opportunity.
As long as economic/survival desperation exist among majority citizenry these sectarian strives will continue over religion or any idiotic difference.
The court sacked PM Samak for running a cooking show. As a foreigner you may not understand it, but Thais take cooking very seriously indeed. People cannot be allowed to do pesky sidejobs like running the country if they are to be able to cook properly.
Thank you Saxer. This is useful and persuasive. The analysis lays bare the imperative of political compromise for a stable outcome. Tocqueville is indeed a useful guide here. I would build on him more, not only in terms of analysis but also for the content of “political reform” in Thailand.
Tocqueville’s recommendations for “political reform” would involve less institutional tinkering and constitutional re-engineering than we’ve seen in past decades and more reform of political culture toward enlightened self-interest on the parts of today’s Yellow and Red leaders and their respective supporters:
The Yellow coalition would do well to read Tocqueville to learn how to combat the majority-led despotism they so fear: through encouraging free institutions (actual and full free speech, free press, and association), a truly independent judiciary, a civil society detached from political parties and patronage, and an acceptance that people are born “socially equal” regardless of their birthplace, family income, or parent’s education.
The Red coalition would do well to read Tocqueville and learn how well-intended but blind allegiance to Napoleonic-style leaders can ironically put at risk their own democratic interests by creating an “endless servitude” to a single authority; that they too can only make electoral democracy succeed by embracing civil institutions detached from political parties, by decentralized government, and by embracing their enlightened self-interest when it comes the interests of political minorities.
As for corruption: Tocqueville essentially argues that no institutional checks will end corrupt government fully; rather, in addition to enforced laws, corruption is best reduced by the collective recognition by society that there is utility in rejecting corruption through “small acts of self denial” – that in a democracy one should “follow virtue” because it is in your long term interest to do so: a.k.a. “enlightened self-interest.”
Post-Napoleanic French society, which also loathed political compromise, ultimately had to reconcile itself to it and finally accepted Tocqueville’s advice after many painful reconfigurations. How long will it take Thai society? How painful will be the process? How many more constitutions, coups, street protests, and “final” battles will it take?
I widely agree with your argument with some minor modifications concerning the cases mentioned. However, I want to maintain that it is misleading to speak of middle class, because the everyday life and “class consiousness” differs widely. The only common denominator is probably fear of decline of social status.
I find the term “bourgoisie” more useful, including the distinction towards the petty bourgoisie. Marx described their political orientations quite well in the 18th brumaire.
[…] article then refers to an article by Pavin Chachavalpongpun who, at New Mandala, rounded up material that had been widely circulated on social media and made it available in […]
The Thai middle class is just like the middle classes in other countries. These middle classes instinctively, and by their education, grasp when their flawed and flagrantly self-seeking leader(s) and abettors had breached ‘the middle class’ tolerance point of no return. Thaksin, sister Yingluck and many others, who repeatedly and loudly flaunt their ‘democracy credentials’ but flagrantly abuse their powers with their rampant kleptocratic corruption and corrosive manipulation of constitutional checks & balances … had reached such ‘points of no return’. Hence the angry ‘middle class’ protests in Bangkok (and other Thai cities) we see today.
Thaksin/Yingluck and abettors after thus violating the people’s trust and because of their constitutional transgressions, must indeed face the full mettle of Thailand’s justice system. That is middle class justice in Thailand.
What gave R.N.England the idea that Prime Ministers and members of Parliament should be above the law?
The Bangkok kleptocracy won’t tolerate any competition, that’s for sure!
To an outsider, the “checks and balances” that Thaksin is supposed to have disregarded seem more like shackles and booby traps that the elected government has to endure.
A court that bans Members of Parliament and sacks Prime Ministers is an outrage to anyone with experience of real democracy. And now we have the spectacle of the highest institution in Thailand, since 1932 the people voting in an election, thrown into disarray by thugs the monarchy refuses to disown.
as some reseach pointed out corruption is somehow linked to poorer/developing economies and reduces as the economy improves, so basically ignore,corruption and wait for it to fade when democratic institutions and the economy improves.
meanwhile the power elites want control of succession, PT/Reds want democracy, somehow they should just agree now who succeeds then confirm democracy by restructuring the “checks and balances” organisations and vote for any political parties willing to compete in the democratic arena.
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The shutdown: In honor of NN
[…] the claim that “rally stages are packed every night with people from all regions” is not accurate at all. That said, we do not doubt that “massive amounts of donations continue to pour in” to […]
Thoughts of a pro-government leader
The tax part is fully legal. The sale itself is technically legal- through use of multiple layers of proxies and nominees. The use of such of course raise the question of ethics. Then again, every major foreign companies investing in Thailand is in as deep as Temasek holdings investing in Shincorp. Most relevant case will probably be Dtac (40% foreign own b4 law amend) and TA Orange (49%).
The amending of the law to up cap on foreign ownership from 25% to 49% just prior to sale, raise questions of conflict of interests, even if it benefits Dtac n Orange more than Shin Corp at the point of amendment.
Then again, Thaksin claims he is selling Shin Corp to avoid future conflict of interest being PM and owning majority shares in a major player of the telco industry.(ie satellite deal with Cambodia)
—
Then again it was about that time I was disposing of my various telco shares, so it could also be business decision. BUT…
—
Politically, I was never able to make sense of dumping all 49% at that time in one go. Why Temasek was the easier part- available cash. There were other postulations re involvement of privy councils and others, that pushed this particular clearance move, or percieved clearance move. I suppose that leads back to your question re: who own the shares after Temasek unloaded them. I am curious too. If not for the 06 coup, the bulk of it might have returned to square one.
Middle class rage threatens democracy
David Brown –
“vote for any political parties willing to compete in the democratic arena.”
That my friend is the key statement. Sadly we have one side who always had the military backing and had always resorted to coups to gain power. This bunch is unwilling to change their outlook (maybe can’t)so is not willing to compete in the democratic arena.
Maybe I am thinking with my reptilian brain, but is seems the only way this bunch would change is for the current leadership to be decimated (Kim Yong Un style)
Middle class rage threatens democracy
Following “The Nation”? tsk! tsk!. BTW, he did not run the cooking show, he was the guest cook.
Sleeping dogs
Thanks Matt. Thought there might be a reason. Some folks aren’t heeding, or don’t understand, the rules, however. Some comments are leaking out attributed.
Middle class rage threatens democracy
On a more fundamental level, both sides are guilty of maintaining the dominance of Confucian-based formal education at all levels, which is largely responsible for the pervasive weakness of critical thinking skills in the populace, because an education system which places more importance on group activities than individual academic merit will have a very strong tendency to channel their intelligence more in that direction. hence the relatively easy manipulation and mobilization of political opinion, despite the ‘quietist’ nature of Thais in general.
Middle class rage threatens democracy
Those of us in the middle between the extremists and the blind are still able to respect differences of opinion enough to have a dialogue. Not always, but almost always: a simple rider in Thai – the equivalent of ‘it depends on your opinion’ – is effective in maintaining civility.
Middle class rage threatens democracy
If you followed the story in the local press, as I did, you would have understood that Samak would have probably gotten off with a slap on the wrist IF he hadn’t perjured himself while giving evidence. So instead of a jail term for perjury, he lost his job. Moreover, Samaks’s cooking show has always been a blatant excuse for him to air his facist political views. This was the guy as Interior Minister in 1974 (?) urged troops in helicopter gunships to shoot hundreds of student demonstrators at Thammasat U.
Sleeping dogs
Agreed perceptions do matter. Those on the receiving end are of course entitled to take umbrage. Indians are still called Indians in the English language although Red Indians are now Native Americans or First Nations. Asians mean different things on opposite shores of the Atlantic, a generic term used for a disparate group from the same region of the world. Likewise kalar was a generic term for all races West of our borders.
It’s not just Kalar and Tayoke names given to children born to Bamar families, also Caucasian looking kids may be named BoBo or Boma. Bo-pyu is a popular name for a puppy.
Yes, dog or rotten is a popular qualifier as in khway kalar or tayoke poke used in anger. You can’t legislate swear words out of the national lexicon, but you can educate people and ban it from broadcast and print media except in the right context in fiction.
Crucial as grassroots efforts are in defusing and resolving communal tensions, the role of high profile persons such as ASSK (not helping) must help. Kudos to Sitagu Sayadaw for his stance in this disgraceful state of affairs.
Sleeping dogs
Names mentioned here in The Irrawaddy.
Speaking to reporters during a discussion break, Wirathu said religious tensions would not be eased by “high level” discussions like the one that took place on Sunday, and called for more dialogue “on the ground.” Wirathu added that he would help by educating Arakanese Buddhists on the rule of law in the hopes of avoiding future violent confrontation.
Several foreign embassies also sent representatives to participate in Sunday’s discussion. The US Embassy’s deputy chief of mission, Virginia E. Murray, said solutions to the country’s religious divisions would ultimately need to come from within.
“It’s not for the international community, it’s not for outsiders to say what happens next, but what we can do is offer that support and help you ask the questions that you yourselves perhaps need to answer,” she said.
Middle class rage threatens democracy
In a real democracy, laws are made by the people’s elected representatives, or by the people at referenda, and by nobody else. A democratic constitution ensures that. A grossly undemocratic constitution, like Thailand’s, made by men with guns and their allies, oppresses the majority of people and their representatives. Thailand’s present constitution was approved by the electorate, but in a gun-at-the-head, take-it-or-leave-it deal that left it full of oppressive laws. Not only that, it provides for courts that oppress the people’s representatives because their judges are corrupted by royal patronage. In a democracy like Australia, the Constitution was framed by gatherings of people who met at many places throughout the country, in a genuine attempt to shape something that matched the moral sentiments and aspirations of as many of the people as possible.
In a real democracy, if the majority don’t like the laws their representatives are making, they throw them out of office AT ELECTIONS. If most of them want part of the constitution changed, they can do it in a referendum. It’s not perfect. It’s not possible to please everybody. Pleasing the majority is the best you can do. But it produces much more stability and prosperity than Thailand has at the moment. I am not trying to thrust my system on the people of Thailand. I am indicating examples of the way they can free themselves from much of the oppression they suffer now, by exerting adequate counter-control on those who govern them.
The King Never Smiles?
I can understand your emotions. The king of Thailand is well entitled to the love of the Thai people. Every time since 1947, when Thailand was in turmoil and chaos reigned the streets, the king brought harmony and well being to the Thai people (may be with some help from others). With his wisdom and understanding of what is right and good in combination to nearly divine moral righteousness, he reminded the conflicting parties that Thais should not fight Thais like in 1973, 1976, 1981,1992, 2006 etc. Thailand is waiting that the father again solves the problems the children created with their whimsical quarrels.
Sleeping dogs
Here at New Mandala there is a paucity of the subjects on:
1) Muslim minority behavior as well as Majority Buddhist Largess.
2) Economic deprivation factors.
Matt
If an NGO worker tearful comment on the plight of the minority, certainly there must be quotable minority atrocious behavior against the Buddhist as well as Buddhist generosity towards Muslim.
As much as Kalar Muslim are portray as victims within Buddhist Myanmar there are much more doing well. Mainly due to better economic opportunity.
As long as economic/survival desperation exist among majority citizenry these sectarian strives will continue over religion or any idiotic difference.
Middle class rage threatens democracy
The court sacked PM Samak for running a cooking show. As a foreigner you may not understand it, but Thais take cooking very seriously indeed. People cannot be allowed to do pesky sidejobs like running the country if they are to be able to cook properly.
Middle class rage threatens democracy
Thank you Saxer. This is useful and persuasive. The analysis lays bare the imperative of political compromise for a stable outcome. Tocqueville is indeed a useful guide here. I would build on him more, not only in terms of analysis but also for the content of “political reform” in Thailand.
Tocqueville’s recommendations for “political reform” would involve less institutional tinkering and constitutional re-engineering than we’ve seen in past decades and more reform of political culture toward enlightened self-interest on the parts of today’s Yellow and Red leaders and their respective supporters:
The Yellow coalition would do well to read Tocqueville to learn how to combat the majority-led despotism they so fear: through encouraging free institutions (actual and full free speech, free press, and association), a truly independent judiciary, a civil society detached from political parties and patronage, and an acceptance that people are born “socially equal” regardless of their birthplace, family income, or parent’s education.
The Red coalition would do well to read Tocqueville and learn how well-intended but blind allegiance to Napoleonic-style leaders can ironically put at risk their own democratic interests by creating an “endless servitude” to a single authority; that they too can only make electoral democracy succeed by embracing civil institutions detached from political parties, by decentralized government, and by embracing their enlightened self-interest when it comes the interests of political minorities.
As for corruption: Tocqueville essentially argues that no institutional checks will end corrupt government fully; rather, in addition to enforced laws, corruption is best reduced by the collective recognition by society that there is utility in rejecting corruption through “small acts of self denial” – that in a democracy one should “follow virtue” because it is in your long term interest to do so: a.k.a. “enlightened self-interest.”
Post-Napoleanic French society, which also loathed political compromise, ultimately had to reconcile itself to it and finally accepted Tocqueville’s advice after many painful reconfigurations. How long will it take Thai society? How painful will be the process? How many more constitutions, coups, street protests, and “final” battles will it take?
Middle class rage threatens democracy
I widely agree with your argument with some minor modifications concerning the cases mentioned. However, I want to maintain that it is misleading to speak of middle class, because the everyday life and “class consiousness” differs widely. The only common denominator is probably fear of decline of social status.
I find the term “bourgoisie” more useful, including the distinction towards the petty bourgoisie. Marx described their political orientations quite well in the 18th brumaire.
Princess Chulabhorn’s politics
[…] article then refers to an article by Pavin Chachavalpongpun who, at New Mandala, rounded up material that had been widely circulated on social media and made it available in […]
Middle class rage threatens democracy
The Thai middle class is just like the middle classes in other countries. These middle classes instinctively, and by their education, grasp when their flawed and flagrantly self-seeking leader(s) and abettors had breached ‘the middle class’ tolerance point of no return. Thaksin, sister Yingluck and many others, who repeatedly and loudly flaunt their ‘democracy credentials’ but flagrantly abuse their powers with their rampant kleptocratic corruption and corrosive manipulation of constitutional checks & balances … had reached such ‘points of no return’. Hence the angry ‘middle class’ protests in Bangkok (and other Thai cities) we see today.
Thaksin/Yingluck and abettors after thus violating the people’s trust and because of their constitutional transgressions, must indeed face the full mettle of Thailand’s justice system. That is middle class justice in Thailand.
What gave R.N.England the idea that Prime Ministers and members of Parliament should be above the law?
Middle class rage threatens democracy
The Bangkok kleptocracy won’t tolerate any competition, that’s for sure!
To an outsider, the “checks and balances” that Thaksin is supposed to have disregarded seem more like shackles and booby traps that the elected government has to endure.
A court that bans Members of Parliament and sacks Prime Ministers is an outrage to anyone with experience of real democracy. And now we have the spectacle of the highest institution in Thailand, since 1932 the people voting in an election, thrown into disarray by thugs the monarchy refuses to disown.
Middle class rage threatens democracy
as some reseach pointed out corruption is somehow linked to poorer/developing economies and reduces as the economy improves, so basically ignore,corruption and wait for it to fade when democratic institutions and the economy improves.
meanwhile the power elites want control of succession, PT/Reds want democracy, somehow they should just agree now who succeeds then confirm democracy by restructuring the “checks and balances” organisations and vote for any political parties willing to compete in the democratic arena.