Actually its bad to generalise that Malaysia is “Good” or “Bad” based on anecdotal incidences. I have seen and felt the changes that have been happening to Malaysia and I realise that I have changed too. All of these have been contributed by religious, educational and political changes. What really irks me is seeing many of the “Privileged” Malaysians especially politicians, malays included, who have sought/succeeded to have a foot in another country whether clandestinely or overtly. They continue to decide the direction this country will take without actually immersing themselves in it. Point of illustration would be a lot of politicians send their children to private or foreign schools(grandchildren of a former premier for eg) while the commoners go to public school where the syllabus are determined by theses politicians. Go Figure.
It does appear Burma is an easy pick for global players. The military with its integral segment changed into some clown uniforms ordinary Burmese wear only for weddings and ceremonies (not funerals) are now of the same mind with the venerable “oppositions” of all sorts to allow in any global players to the country for whatever they want to take away ready to collude to evict the millennia old settlements and populace to dig up (such noble intention!!!) minerals, gems, etc. and destroy the land and environment large scale with irreversibly.
Most people writing in these columns – commentators, “media” people, academics-sure have no land ownership in the country and definitely not earning or supporting a family from the produce of the land. All they want is the ASEAN ROAD/ multiplying this thing called GDP, this and that “Special Whatever ZONES” or anything else IMF, WB and ADB on behalf of their pay masters require.
To that end military and the global corporations have an easy task. They could not ask for more energetic and persuasive leg-work people than the current “activists” and “opposition” leaders/ movers and of course the all important ex-pats screaming for integration of the poor, backward, electricity lacking Burma to international trade to be like shiny Singapore.
With that in mind, greed (Lawba)and misplaced pride (Mawha) are the prime movers of the day in todays’ Burma. To such an extent that when people in Latpadaung refused to simply curl up and die every one led by their Amay Suu denounced them. Same goes for Thilawa site, Tavoy sites and indeed rice fields of the delta.
The issue of ethnicity is simply blurred once the military, who have thus far shown overwhelming ability to use the erstwhile opponents albeit with intimate and solid help of the other erstwhile antagonists “the West” ( their international organizations as well as their media and government personnel), can cheat/ bribe and divide the leadership of various ethnic groups in the name of “development” which is a new word for “Loot Dividend”.
So the Rohingya, the people on the ground being played as pawns from both their own leaders and the oppositions which are aplenty currently and in their current line of strategy have little chance of getting anywhere. Inhumane sufferings will simply be ignored by all amid garrulous lip service.
Ironically, those simple statements like “It is very important for Burma watchers to have a clear understanding of the goals and interests of the Myanmar Government. Not having a clear understanding imperils the peace and democratization processes and also threatens to embolden radical elements within the regiment.” gives solid endorsement that the current guys are good guys under duress from the non-existent “hardliners” or “extremist elements” or as mentioned “radicals” or according to Thant Myint-U “communists”.
That is the real irony. The visible and audible racist, ruthless and covetous portion, floating above the peaceful majority, is buoyant and in command and in control of the society simply because of overwhelming endorsement of their own leaders, the inimitable “Pyithu Tatmadaw” and their integral clown-dressed brethren and venerable similar minded oppositions of sorts invented by the international communities, by the international communities.
An enjoyable read and a most interesting comparison. The segregation is certainly there, though I had thought the gap has narrowed somewhat over the Mahathir years. I assume it has widened since?
But if they do hate the monarchy it’s perfectly logical. Most of the red shirts are Lao people whose ancestors were conquered, killed, enslaved, dispersed from fertile east bank lands into the arid, barely hospitable west bank. Their cities up and down the Mekong were destroyed, with the exception of Luang Prabang. And who did this to them? The founder of the Chakri dynasty.
I’m not saying that they hold grudges two hundred years later, but I find it perfectly logical that they would not be in love with the institution like the Central Thai/Sino-Thai/Siamese.
I just love the irony that now they have the votes to do things like say, move the capital to across the river from Vientiane or send the Emerald Buddha back home or rename the country Lanxang….
I really enjoyed the article. As someone who has visited Malaysia and have been thinking of settling down there, this gives me pause in that it draws attention to issues that will never be apparent to someone visiting in the short term. I myself was very happily surprised when cars of Malays wished my friends and I “Merry Christmas” while walking down the street, so perhaps not all hope is lost.
Don’t know if they do ‘hate’, but if they do, is it ‘hate’ for the institution, individuals within the institution, or some anti-democratic acts that may have been repeatedly done in the institutions name?
If I had to guess, it would be the latter, and the 2006 coup and subsequent shenanigans has helped facilitate an eye-opening to an alternative view of Thai history.
Once someones eyes had been opened to a non ‘official’ version of Thai history, there is always the chance they could rethink previous attitudes to institutions and individuals within them.
The key is to understand Vichai N’s culture. It’s OK in his culture to tell outright lies and fill up this web site with BS, as long as he is serving his patron’s interest.
A truly delightful piece of writing; a brilliant analysis of the socio-political trends and exegesis of the religious subtexts that’s been afflicting the country. The comparison of present day Islam in Malaysia with the Spanish Inquisition is fascinating.
” Neither Thaksin nor his followers hate the monarchy. It’s the monarchy that hates them.” – R.N.England
There there Tom Hoy. You have just THE subject person: Mr. R.N.England for the research: “The Patent Red Shirt hatred against the Thai Monarchy, its origins (originators?) …”
I think, RN, your rebuttal needs to be a little more naunced, if only because it is exactly the type of heated one dimensional response some are looking for.
An advice from an Isaarn worker to me: Dont use the word ‘hate’. Because then you walk into their trap. More importantly, it reflects badly on ourselves, to hate.
Instead, say: We love — —-. But — —- did not see us, did not hear us, did not love us, as we do him.
I think it is a reflection of disappointment, disillusionment.
Of course, there are those who hated the Monarchy. They exist, they are few in comparison, but they are unfortunately loud.
As for Thaksin, I think you previously stated clearly he is a politician. I agree it is unlikely Thaksin hates the monarchy, for it is indeed difficult for one to hate an object that is of supreme use to them. It is possible Thaksin may not like, he may not respect, he may even feel disdain, but do not hate. he will fight to keep it, because it is useful to his ambition.
It seems the Red Shirt “Thaksin” supporters have one similar thought in mind, and this is the core of the problem we are facing.
– They think corruption is black or white…and since every politician is likely to be corrupt in one shape or form…Thaksin have done nothing wrong!
– Well guys, while you are most likely living in Red Shirt territory, or married with Red Shirt supporters; you should know that corruption is NOT black or white…in fact it is scaled and Thaksin tops the scale by a billion baht compared to the rest of the pack. If you accept Thaksin as a leader…you have never even tried to do anything to give the people a chance to live in a less corrupt country, what message will this send to the students in school, that later will run this country…MESSAGE: Corruption rocks! You can do it too.
Not to disagree, but there might be one additional aspect as well. The highly unusual practice of empowering courts and election commissions to ban individuals from all political activity, even to deprive MPs of their posts without allowing a party substitute to take over, may have created an alternative to election politics within the system. Clearly, it is easier to frame a successful politician than to defeat him in elections. This is precisely why in European countries we can sometimes find MPs who keep their posts even while serving a prison term.
Moreover, as Thai politics goes, the capacity to do this has been in the hands of one party, while the other has developed a capacity to win elections. Isn’t it almost logical that the political process has moved from a competition for votes to a competition between the “election subsystem” and the “disenfranchising subsystem”? Both parties concentrate, so to speak, on their comparative advantage.
This is just a thought and it might be wrong. I’m not a political scientist, so I hope to get a more expert response from someone in this forum.
No, Tom Hoy. I’m “complaining” because NM censors and not moderates. I’m “complaining” because posts I make under my name are taken out, the exact same post that i write under a different name is allowed in. I have no problem with free speech and accept other people’s rights to their opinions. NM and Marshall clearly does not. This won’t be posted of course. Truth hurts
Orang Utan can eat banana from Hindu Temple; Rambutan from Tokong; Apple and Orang from Church and Coconut water from Mosques…Worship at any Alter by calling gods any name…No needs Tithe or Sunday services or Friday block all the road…yet quarrel about who own ALL AH…so Orang Utan prayed to Monkey god decided not to be promoted to be Human; incase they need to be circumcised…pls. Nolah, this may be a irrepairable damage.
Federalism, legalized discrimination, right wing military SO on so forth—
Similar to the term “democracy” are westerners imposed ambiguity that contributed to the useless careless policy toward Myanmar.
Until ON THE GROUND reality is FULLY realized these are mere terms that all sides will take advantage to describe progress while the real freedom that a beleagued citizenry need remain unreachable.
The Muslim,Buddhist on going violence in Yakhine illustrated well:
As long as the Muslim refuse to accept self as minority in every way as example in Maulamyain, and improvement in economical opportunities, even with adequate immigration laws, just police activities to enforce this quagmire will NEVER be solved using the westerners concept of discrimination and all other terms described above.
SO please define those terms specifically with respect to Myanmar case.
The Orang Utan in the forest enjoyed Banana from the Batu Caves for Breakfast;it addressed his thirst with coconut water offered to Chandi of Buddha on the way to a Surau cleaning up all timun from left over Nasi lemak for Lunch. In the evening; it was an exciting time by the street some community worship “Hungry Ghost” festival..Variety of imported fruits were served…it was indeed the best of time for dinner. On the way back to the trees; Orang Utan took a nap in the roof of an old Church…listening to the prayers of the congregation…he decided not to become “Human” Why??? These foolish human being got Law forbidding each others from eating foods together and worst some are not allowed to call their gods…ALL AH. Being Orang Utan in the jungle…freedom to feast any fruits from all generous alters no Jais to raid the woods. It is so good to remain as Orang Utan no need the Brands of Religion compete for Market share of tithes…Oh, Yes in the forest no body print money out of thin air to cheat or korup each other…Human is not so civilised after all schooling like fish in broken acquarium in the acean; still swim in circle…check with http://www.saqamaweb.empowernetwork.com
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A Malaysian Inquisition?
The gap has definitely widen thru the Mahathir years. The polarisation is now quite severe, with almost everything being looked at in racial terms.
BTW, Mahathir has now reached the pinnacle of his racial insecurity by founding Perkasa.
A Malaysian Inquisition?
Torquemada=Mahathir ?
A Malaysian Inquisition?
Actually its bad to generalise that Malaysia is “Good” or “Bad” based on anecdotal incidences. I have seen and felt the changes that have been happening to Malaysia and I realise that I have changed too. All of these have been contributed by religious, educational and political changes. What really irks me is seeing many of the “Privileged” Malaysians especially politicians, malays included, who have sought/succeeded to have a foot in another country whether clandestinely or overtly. They continue to decide the direction this country will take without actually immersing themselves in it. Point of illustration would be a lot of politicians send their children to private or foreign schools(grandchildren of a former premier for eg) while the commoners go to public school where the syllabus are determined by theses politicians. Go Figure.
Beyond bigotry: Unravelling ethnic violence in Rakhine
It does appear Burma is an easy pick for global players. The military with its integral segment changed into some clown uniforms ordinary Burmese wear only for weddings and ceremonies (not funerals) are now of the same mind with the venerable “oppositions” of all sorts to allow in any global players to the country for whatever they want to take away ready to collude to evict the millennia old settlements and populace to dig up (such noble intention!!!) minerals, gems, etc. and destroy the land and environment large scale with irreversibly.
Most people writing in these columns – commentators, “media” people, academics-sure have no land ownership in the country and definitely not earning or supporting a family from the produce of the land. All they want is the ASEAN ROAD/ multiplying this thing called GDP, this and that “Special Whatever ZONES” or anything else IMF, WB and ADB on behalf of their pay masters require.
To that end military and the global corporations have an easy task. They could not ask for more energetic and persuasive leg-work people than the current “activists” and “opposition” leaders/ movers and of course the all important ex-pats screaming for integration of the poor, backward, electricity lacking Burma to international trade to be like shiny Singapore.
With that in mind, greed (Lawba)and misplaced pride (Mawha) are the prime movers of the day in todays’ Burma. To such an extent that when people in Latpadaung refused to simply curl up and die every one led by their Amay Suu denounced them. Same goes for Thilawa site, Tavoy sites and indeed rice fields of the delta.
The issue of ethnicity is simply blurred once the military, who have thus far shown overwhelming ability to use the erstwhile opponents albeit with intimate and solid help of the other erstwhile antagonists “the West” ( their international organizations as well as their media and government personnel), can cheat/ bribe and divide the leadership of various ethnic groups in the name of “development” which is a new word for “Loot Dividend”.
So the Rohingya, the people on the ground being played as pawns from both their own leaders and the oppositions which are aplenty currently and in their current line of strategy have little chance of getting anywhere. Inhumane sufferings will simply be ignored by all amid garrulous lip service.
Ironically, those simple statements like “It is very important for Burma watchers to have a clear understanding of the goals and interests of the Myanmar Government. Not having a clear understanding imperils the peace and democratization processes and also threatens to embolden radical elements within the regiment.” gives solid endorsement that the current guys are good guys under duress from the non-existent “hardliners” or “extremist elements” or as mentioned “radicals” or according to Thant Myint-U “communists”.
That is the real irony. The visible and audible racist, ruthless and covetous portion, floating above the peaceful majority, is buoyant and in command and in control of the society simply because of overwhelming endorsement of their own leaders, the inimitable “Pyithu Tatmadaw” and their integral clown-dressed brethren and venerable similar minded oppositions of sorts invented by the international communities, by the international communities.
A Malaysian Inquisition?
An enjoyable read and a most interesting comparison. The segregation is certainly there, though I had thought the gap has narrowed somewhat over the Mahathir years. I assume it has widened since?
How to understand Thailand’s conflict
But if they do hate the monarchy it’s perfectly logical. Most of the red shirts are Lao people whose ancestors were conquered, killed, enslaved, dispersed from fertile east bank lands into the arid, barely hospitable west bank. Their cities up and down the Mekong were destroyed, with the exception of Luang Prabang. And who did this to them? The founder of the Chakri dynasty.
I’m not saying that they hold grudges two hundred years later, but I find it perfectly logical that they would not be in love with the institution like the Central Thai/Sino-Thai/Siamese.
I just love the irony that now they have the votes to do things like say, move the capital to across the river from Vientiane or send the Emerald Buddha back home or rename the country Lanxang….
A Malaysian Inquisition?
I really enjoyed the article. As someone who has visited Malaysia and have been thinking of settling down there, this gives me pause in that it draws attention to issues that will never be apparent to someone visiting in the short term. I myself was very happily surprised when cars of Malays wished my friends and I “Merry Christmas” while walking down the street, so perhaps not all hope is lost.
How to understand Thailand’s conflict
Vichai’s statement -“Is this demonstration by millions of Bangkok city folks against Yingluck’”
There is your answer. Cannot even tell a simple fact and had to lie…millions?!?
It seems that Democrats and Yellow Shirts supporters, having run out of logic or intellectual arguments simply resort to lying. Period.
How to understand Thailand’s conflict
Don’t know if they do ‘hate’, but if they do, is it ‘hate’ for the institution, individuals within the institution, or some anti-democratic acts that may have been repeatedly done in the institutions name?
If I had to guess, it would be the latter, and the 2006 coup and subsequent shenanigans has helped facilitate an eye-opening to an alternative view of Thai history.
Once someones eyes had been opened to a non ‘official’ version of Thai history, there is always the chance they could rethink previous attitudes to institutions and individuals within them.
How to understand Thailand’s conflict
The key is to understand Vichai N’s culture. It’s OK in his culture to tell outright lies and fill up this web site with BS, as long as he is serving his patron’s interest.
A Malaysian Inquisition?
A truly delightful piece of writing; a brilliant analysis of the socio-political trends and exegesis of the religious subtexts that’s been afflicting the country. The comparison of present day Islam in Malaysia with the Spanish Inquisition is fascinating.
How to understand Thailand’s conflict
” Neither Thaksin nor his followers hate the monarchy. It’s the monarchy that hates them.” – R.N.England
There there Tom Hoy. You have just THE subject person: Mr. R.N.England for the research: “The Patent Red Shirt hatred against the Thai Monarchy, its origins (originators?) …”
How to understand Thailand’s conflict
I think, RN, your rebuttal needs to be a little more naunced, if only because it is exactly the type of heated one dimensional response some are looking for.
An advice from an Isaarn worker to me: Dont use the word ‘hate’. Because then you walk into their trap. More importantly, it reflects badly on ourselves, to hate.
Instead, say: We love — —-. But — —- did not see us, did not hear us, did not love us, as we do him.
I think it is a reflection of disappointment, disillusionment.
Of course, there are those who hated the Monarchy. They exist, they are few in comparison, but they are unfortunately loud.
As for Thaksin, I think you previously stated clearly he is a politician. I agree it is unlikely Thaksin hates the monarchy, for it is indeed difficult for one to hate an object that is of supreme use to them. It is possible Thaksin may not like, he may not respect, he may even feel disdain, but do not hate. he will fight to keep it, because it is useful to his ambition.
How to understand Thailand’s conflict
sorry, meant to be Billion Dollar.
How to understand Thailand’s conflict
@Neptune and @R.N England
It seems the Red Shirt “Thaksin” supporters have one similar thought in mind, and this is the core of the problem we are facing.
– They think corruption is black or white…and since every politician is likely to be corrupt in one shape or form…Thaksin have done nothing wrong!
– Well guys, while you are most likely living in Red Shirt territory, or married with Red Shirt supporters; you should know that corruption is NOT black or white…in fact it is scaled and Thaksin tops the scale by a billion baht compared to the rest of the pack. If you accept Thaksin as a leader…you have never even tried to do anything to give the people a chance to live in a less corrupt country, what message will this send to the students in school, that later will run this country…MESSAGE: Corruption rocks! You can do it too.
Nice…really nice guys.
How bad is Thaksinomics?
Not to disagree, but there might be one additional aspect as well. The highly unusual practice of empowering courts and election commissions to ban individuals from all political activity, even to deprive MPs of their posts without allowing a party substitute to take over, may have created an alternative to election politics within the system. Clearly, it is easier to frame a successful politician than to defeat him in elections. This is precisely why in European countries we can sometimes find MPs who keep their posts even while serving a prison term.
Moreover, as Thai politics goes, the capacity to do this has been in the hands of one party, while the other has developed a capacity to win elections. Isn’t it almost logical that the political process has moved from a competition for votes to a competition between the “election subsystem” and the “disenfranchising subsystem”? Both parties concentrate, so to speak, on their comparative advantage.
This is just a thought and it might be wrong. I’m not a political scientist, so I hope to get a more expert response from someone in this forum.
Another big weekend for Thailand
No, Tom Hoy. I’m “complaining” because NM censors and not moderates. I’m “complaining” because posts I make under my name are taken out, the exact same post that i write under a different name is allowed in. I have no problem with free speech and accept other people’s rights to their opinions. NM and Marshall clearly does not. This won’t be posted of course. Truth hurts
A Malaysian Inquisition?
Orang Utan can eat banana from Hindu Temple; Rambutan from Tokong; Apple and Orang from Church and Coconut water from Mosques…Worship at any Alter by calling gods any name…No needs Tithe or Sunday services or Friday block all the road…yet quarrel about who own ALL AH…so Orang Utan prayed to Monkey god decided not to be promoted to be Human; incase they need to be circumcised…pls. Nolah, this may be a irrepairable damage.
Beyond bigotry: Unravelling ethnic violence in Rakhine
Federalism, legalized discrimination, right wing military SO on so forth—
Similar to the term “democracy” are westerners imposed ambiguity that contributed to the useless careless policy toward Myanmar.
Until ON THE GROUND reality is FULLY realized these are mere terms that all sides will take advantage to describe progress while the real freedom that a beleagued citizenry need remain unreachable.
The Muslim,Buddhist on going violence in Yakhine illustrated well:
As long as the Muslim refuse to accept self as minority in every way as example in Maulamyain, and improvement in economical opportunities, even with adequate immigration laws, just police activities to enforce this quagmire will NEVER be solved using the westerners concept of discrimination and all other terms described above.
SO please define those terms specifically with respect to Myanmar case.
A Malaysian Inquisition?
The Orang Utan in the forest enjoyed Banana from the Batu Caves for Breakfast;it addressed his thirst with coconut water offered to Chandi of Buddha on the way to a Surau cleaning up all timun from left over Nasi lemak for Lunch. In the evening; it was an exciting time by the street some community worship “Hungry Ghost” festival..Variety of imported fruits were served…it was indeed the best of time for dinner. On the way back to the trees; Orang Utan took a nap in the roof of an old Church…listening to the prayers of the congregation…he decided not to become “Human” Why??? These foolish human being got Law forbidding each others from eating foods together and worst some are not allowed to call their gods…ALL AH. Being Orang Utan in the jungle…freedom to feast any fruits from all generous alters no Jais to raid the woods. It is so good to remain as Orang Utan no need the Brands of Religion compete for Market share of tithes…Oh, Yes in the forest no body print money out of thin air to cheat or korup each other…Human is not so civilised after all schooling like fish in broken acquarium in the acean; still swim in circle…check with http://www.saqamaweb.empowernetwork.com