Bias, yet a good road map to how we got to this quagmire.
‘Bigotry’ without addressing the inherent characteristics of Buddhism and more importantly Islam, in light of the fact that Myanmar is and will be a Buddhist country.
As Thailand is Myanmar will have been if not for the glaringly passes given to factors:
1) Colonial legacy
With a note to remind the author of this article that, the 2nd longest next to Pagan Dynasty that has changed Myanmar with all the quagmires.
2) The West of letting BSPP period (1962-1988) to proceed unmolested while imposing a policy that were useless and careless (1988-? 2013).
Again to the author to see the significant of nearly 1/2 a century of policy that contributed to present quagmires, to a country with so called 1948 to present to solve any problem.
If any country has to endure what Myanmar and the citizenry has gone through due to the West policy the author will see the significance of Buddhism, Bigotry DO NOT apply here.
The road to reconciliation in Myanmar can not exist w/o the religion.
Joshua Kurlantzick raises good points – BUT : Indonesia has two HUGE Muslim organistions – Nhadtul Ulama and Muhamidayh – which give it the democratic stability Thailand lacks.
” … In trying to purge the system of a corrupt element, could the system end up attracting the kind of corruption it’s trying to remove in the first place?” – Apivat Hanvongse
Seriously Apivat, and as a serious scholar of Thai political events both past and ongoing, and considering what you know of the very toxic Thaksin corruptive system, would you not yourself join or symphatize with those 400,000 or so angry Thais “to try to purge the present system of a corrupt (Thaksin) elements” period? Why worry hypothetically about whether the next system, after Thaksin, could be worse?
What could be worse than the baroque but very systematic ‘Thaksin corruption machine’?
Compared to any of the neighbours, Thailand is unique in the way the resident western commentariat see it and write about it. Perhaps we have also bought into the “uniqueness” myth?
I agree, Jon. Good pics and descriptions. Shows the Thai ability to enjoy the celebrations even when there is political unease (as there is in all countries.) During the Bangkok troubles they still held Songkran events. They are not fazed and thrown into despair.
Michael Nelson, Duncan McCargo, and Paul Chambers are worth reading. And especially Kuriantzick. Ther’s some good factual stuff out there. Well summarised article, NF. Thanks for sharing.
[…] Overall, the Thailand-as-unique narrative can be seen in the general reluctance of many Thai opinion leaders on both red and yellow sides to admit that many of the country’s problems do bear a strong resemblance to those of many of Thailand’s neighbors. (New Mandala had a fine short summary of the anger expressed against foreign journalists in Thailand.) […]
As the Russians say: ‘Yours is a spy, ours is an intelligence officer’. Likewise, whether Chin Peng was a terrorist or a freedom fighter is a matter of perspective. We can argue until the cows come home.
Thanks everyone for your engagement and stimulating discussion. As expected, different people gravitate towards different frames, informed by their own background, experience and training. Some are drawn to covert processes, others found that the social constructionist perspective had more resonance.
I appreciate your comments – whether it’s to explore a narrative framework; the lack of a historical perspective; the idea of competing moral systems; as well as reference to other authors (McCargo, Chambers) – and will take them into consideration for future work.
Given a highly politicized environment that seems impose a binary, right/wrong, yellow/red, us vs. them frame, I try to inject complexity and diverse views into the conversation. I do strive for balance and impartiality, even if I sometimes fall short. Happy holidays 😉
I don’t foresee the problem ending any time soon. Until a man sees a fellow man as just another human being,without the attachment of his ethnicity and religion, I am afraid the problem will continue. The only way to solve this type of problem is to modernize his mind through education. And I believe the Central government and the international community are in position to do so.
It’s weird, Lieij, that two people could give a thumbs down to your comletely innocuous and fair comment. Seems someone does not like people to have their own opinions.
I have some reservations but k.Apivat’s article is well researched and detailed. Overall it is fair and balanced though a bias does sometimes creep in. I have re-tweeted the link and hope it gets widely read.
Everyone is entitled of course to their view. This concept of having to like or agree with everything a writer says is nonsensical and unprofessional. “Found and lost” made a good point and it was interesting that two readers took exception to my even referring to McCargo and Chambers, for example. What is the problem in reading widely and getting a balanced view?
Speaking of bigotry, wasn’t Buddha an Indian (“Kalar” as the Burmese call them) and of course Mohammed was not a “Bengali” but an Arab, no?
Racial purity (“Rassenhygiene”) is an oxymoron. 135 racially distinct indigenous tribes in Burma? What a joke! I bet most so-called “Rakhines” or “Bamars” or “Karens” or “Mons” or whatever are all mixed.
I probably have traces of Neanderthal, Denisovan and Homo Erectus genes (I don’t believe in “creationism”)
[…] decade – he was recently singled out for physical attack by the PDRC and then later produced an exceptional report on PDRC attacks on a pro-democracy Red Shirt rally – told me this about possible future Thai […]
[…] So what next? Suthep has now taken to threatening PM Yingluck’s 11year old son from the protest stage whilst his acolytes have said they will lead a mob to ‘storm’ the US Embassy. The PDRC, who have vowed to stop the February 2014 general election, still rely on the support of Abhisit’s Democrats who look increasingly likely to boycott the elections. And, waiting in the wings, is the notoriously coup-happy Thai Army. […]
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Beyond bigotry: Unravelling ethnic violence in Rakhine
Bias, yet a good road map to how we got to this quagmire.
‘Bigotry’ without addressing the inherent characteristics of Buddhism and more importantly Islam, in light of the fact that Myanmar is and will be a Buddhist country.
As Thailand is Myanmar will have been if not for the glaringly passes given to factors:
1) Colonial legacy
With a note to remind the author of this article that, the 2nd longest next to Pagan Dynasty that has changed Myanmar with all the quagmires.
2) The West of letting BSPP period (1962-1988) to proceed unmolested while imposing a policy that were useless and careless (1988-? 2013).
Again to the author to see the significant of nearly 1/2 a century of policy that contributed to present quagmires, to a country with so called 1948 to present to solve any problem.
If any country has to endure what Myanmar and the citizenry has gone through due to the West policy the author will see the significance of Buddhism, Bigotry DO NOT apply here.
The road to reconciliation in Myanmar can not exist w/o the religion.
Another big weekend for Thailand
Joshua Kurlantzick raises good points – BUT : Indonesia has two HUGE Muslim organistions – Nhadtul Ulama and Muhamidayh – which give it the democratic stability Thailand lacks.
How to understand Thailand’s conflict
“baroque but very systemic” ??
You talk of the 400,000. What of the other 64 million voters. Apivat would anyway be wrong to take sides or show bias in an academic work.
How to understand Thailand’s conflict
Suthep?
How to understand Thailand’s conflict
” … In trying to purge the system of a corrupt element, could the system end up attracting the kind of corruption it’s trying to remove in the first place?” – Apivat Hanvongse
Seriously Apivat, and as a serious scholar of Thai political events both past and ongoing, and considering what you know of the very toxic Thaksin corruptive system, would you not yourself join or symphatize with those 400,000 or so angry Thais “to try to purge the present system of a corrupt (Thaksin) elements” period? Why worry hypothetically about whether the next system, after Thaksin, could be worse?
What could be worse than the baroque but very systematic ‘Thaksin corruption machine’?
Another big weekend for Thailand
Compared to any of the neighbours, Thailand is unique in the way the resident western commentariat see it and write about it. Perhaps we have also bought into the “uniqueness” myth?
Another big weekend for Thailand
Who is the ugly guy sitting surrounded by the Reds? He looks familiar. Friend or foe (of what camp)? Being arrested or being freed?
Had his gun been found and matched with the victims at Ramkhamhaeng U riots? (now I remember)
http://www.newmandala.org/2013/12/10/ramkhamhaeng-a-view-from-inside-the-stadium/
Chachoengsao: Celebrating the King’s 80th Birthday
I agree, Jon. Good pics and descriptions. Shows the Thai ability to enjoy the celebrations even when there is political unease (as there is in all countries.) During the Bangkok troubles they still held Songkran events. They are not fazed and thrown into despair.
Another big weekend for Thailand
Michael Nelson, Duncan McCargo, and Paul Chambers are worth reading. And especially Kuriantzick. Ther’s some good factual stuff out there. Well summarised article, NF. Thanks for sharing.
Islamist conservatism in Malaysia
[…] Ahmad Fauzi Abdul Hamid is Associate professor and Chairman of the Political Science programme, School of Distance Education, University Sains Malaysia. http://www.newmandala.org/2013/12/07/islamist-conservatism-in-malaysia/ […]
Pesky foreigners
[…] Overall, the Thailand-as-unique narrative can be seen in the general reluctance of many Thai opinion leaders on both red and yellow sides to admit that many of the country’s problems do bear a strong resemblance to those of many of Thailand’s neighbors. (New Mandala had a fine short summary of the anger expressed against foreign journalists in Thailand.) […]
Chin Peng, an obituary
As the Russians say: ‘Yours is a spy, ours is an intelligence officer’. Likewise, whether Chin Peng was a terrorist or a freedom fighter is a matter of perspective. We can argue until the cows come home.
How to understand Thailand’s conflict
Thanks everyone for your engagement and stimulating discussion. As expected, different people gravitate towards different frames, informed by their own background, experience and training. Some are drawn to covert processes, others found that the social constructionist perspective had more resonance.
I appreciate your comments – whether it’s to explore a narrative framework; the lack of a historical perspective; the idea of competing moral systems; as well as reference to other authors (McCargo, Chambers) – and will take them into consideration for future work.
Given a highly politicized environment that seems impose a binary, right/wrong, yellow/red, us vs. them frame, I try to inject complexity and diverse views into the conversation. I do strive for balance and impartiality, even if I sometimes fall short. Happy holidays 😉
Beyond bigotry: Unravelling ethnic violence in Rakhine
I don’t foresee the problem ending any time soon. Until a man sees a fellow man as just another human being,without the attachment of his ethnicity and religion, I am afraid the problem will continue. The only way to solve this type of problem is to modernize his mind through education. And I believe the Central government and the international community are in position to do so.
How to understand Thailand’s conflict
It’s weird, Lieij, that two people could give a thumbs down to your comletely innocuous and fair comment. Seems someone does not like people to have their own opinions.
How to understand Thailand’s conflict
I have some reservations but k.Apivat’s article is well researched and detailed. Overall it is fair and balanced though a bias does sometimes creep in. I have re-tweeted the link and hope it gets widely read.
Everyone is entitled of course to their view. This concept of having to like or agree with everything a writer says is nonsensical and unprofessional. “Found and lost” made a good point and it was interesting that two readers took exception to my even referring to McCargo and Chambers, for example. What is the problem in reading widely and getting a balanced view?
Beyond bigotry: Unravelling ethnic violence in Rakhine
Speaking of bigotry, wasn’t Buddha an Indian (“Kalar” as the Burmese call them) and of course Mohammed was not a “Bengali” but an Arab, no?
Racial purity (“Rassenhygiene”) is an oxymoron. 135 racially distinct indigenous tribes in Burma? What a joke! I bet most so-called “Rakhines” or “Bamars” or “Karens” or “Mons” or whatever are all mixed.
I probably have traces of Neanderthal, Denisovan and Homo Erectus genes (I don’t believe in “creationism”)
Nick Nostitz in the killing zone
[…] Chilling account of the killing zone near Din Daeng from Nick Nostitz, as well as a tenant at the Complete’s video of the events Nick […]
Ramkhamhaeng: A view from inside the stadium
[…] decade – he was recently singled out for physical attack by the PDRC and then later produced an exceptional report on PDRC attacks on a pro-democracy Red Shirt rally – told me this about possible future Thai […]
Counting Thailand’s coups
[…] So what next? Suthep has now taken to threatening PM Yingluck’s 11year old son from the protest stage whilst his acolytes have said they will lead a mob to ‘storm’ the US Embassy. The PDRC, who have vowed to stop the February 2014 general election, still rely on the support of Abhisit’s Democrats who look increasingly likely to boycott the elections. And, waiting in the wings, is the notoriously coup-happy Thai Army. […]