Actually, Forbes does not regularly do in-depth studies. This is not common. I have seen the link to the page. I would like to see a hard copy of the original magazine. I do not believe the study is accurate at all. I do not know what their researchers believe or not, but I do not accept that Thaksin is only the tenth richest person in Thailand. I will check other sources, as well.
I do not think they have much competition and I doubt the veracity of this Forbes page regarding the wealth of Thaksin and co.
When THE PEOPLE triumph in Bangkok,the People’s Courts will be convened.Their goal will be to root out the Thaksin Regime.”Are you or have you ever been a member of the Thaksin Regime?” will be the question.Those found guilty will be sent to Santi Asoke farms to experience work, celibacy and vegetarianism,supervised by former regime member Chamlong.
The answers to this article are told by men with vast freedom fighting experience like Surachai sae Dan, Arcom Sydney (tprud.org), Chupong Teetuan(norporchorusa).
By the way this is a great blog even though its infested by cockcroaches.
So the hopelessly out-numbered Rajamangala Red Shirts have left – not without a fight.
This week’s The Economist’s leader article,(p.15, Nov.30) :”Thailand’s constitution not only has undemocratic elements, but also gives the central government too much power. That has helped fuel a long-running bloody conflict in the Muslim south. It may yet help spark another in the Thaksin-supporting north-east”.
I agree with Arthurson. If violence escalates (as it may well do) General Prayuth is in a quandary. Does he stage a coup, and if so who does he support? 2006 was a failure for the army in every way. As Arthurson says, Peua Thai has not interfered with the annual military promotions nor the inflated arms procurement budget. Who will he support? And who put Suthep up to this campaign? It is hard not to believe that he has not embarked on this attempted coup without tacit approval from certain establishment and military figures. Note the meeting between Prayuth, Suthep and Yingluck. Was it real or cosmetic? We know who directs Yingluck’s decisions. But who is directing Suthep’s strategy? There are surely “dark figures” behind his campaign. Is General Prayuth seeking a position of neutrality? If, after escalating violence he intervenes “in the national interest” on whose behalf will it be?
People prefer the narrative of revolution to the messy complex reality.
Its sad that taking sides, avoiding real issues, and untying the Gordian knots that make up this shoe mess, is preferable. Its doubly sad that not only people detached from the scene do that, but so do important actors who make the good v evil narrative work for their own benefit.
Neither side is championing rights and democracy. Don’t people get that?
The idea that everyone on the street is “deluded” is altogether patronizing and completely misses the point. Obviously different people and different groups have different perceptions and are motivated by different goals.
Yes, to some extent there is a disconnect between the actual goals between different people, but they all are being united behind an anti-Thaksin banner. That is what happened before. Sure there is media manipulation and people and the leaders are making plans behind the scene that are much less innocent and much more manipulative than the average protester is aware of or would share. What is new with that? How many political movements are so altogether different?
I am not justifying these activities, but the kind of anti-demonstrator commentary coming from English language sources is really not helpful and doesn’t connect with the motivations of the protestors, and so underestimates or dismisses the actual magnitude of actions being taken.
In the end one cannot simply dismiss this or so easily summarize it as Democrats-Yellowshirts-Students. Yes, this is a useful summary but not enough to explain events or what will happen next.
Like this article, we need more informed info than the press are giving in Thailand and internationally. The distant rhetoric narrative of good versus evil is depressing. So thanks for this informative article.
However, why have you not performed a similar analysis on the Shinawatra machine? Why is transparancy, naming and your barely concealed analysis above the purely descriptive, reserved for what you term the old blood?
In order to understand what is going on, a similar analysis of the machine or dispositif of the “red shirts” is required. Otherwise your essay merely unpacks the uncritical.
Please, critique from multiple angles to maintain perspective and to justify your analysis.
There are powerful machines on both sides of this particularly depressing equation. Unpacking only one is rather suspect.
Good luck to Nick in devoting the next decade or so in pursuing justice through the Thai and German courts. Claiming damages in Thailand would involve a detailed disclosure his income backed up by notarised receipts from the Revenue Department. Damages awards in the case of death where it was quite clear that earning power had been impaired, e.g. the Santika fire, have been derisory and this claim would involve putting a rather complex argument before the Thai court. The judge would quite likely rule that allegations of being a red shirt sympathiser were not defamatory, since that sould be applied to the entire cabinet without impairment of their earnings power, while passing on information of criminal wrongdoings is simply a civic duty that anyone should be proud to perform.
To cap it all, if Nick won in the Thai court the defendant would be ordered to publish the ruling including the defamatory material in several newspapers, thereby repeating the defamation. Meanwhile, the sponsors of BlueSkyChannelTV might countersue Nick separately in every Southern province where his writings could have been accessed via the Internet and have him running around the country to different court hearings of the same charges like Andrew Drummond is doing at the moment.
Suing in a German court would not be very worthwhile unless Clara Holzer turns out to be a real person and German to boot, as her name suggests, with impoundable assets there. I am sure BlueSky doesn’t have any.
Realistically threats of legal action would ring very hollow indeed and would only make it take longer for all this to blow over and allow Nick get back to work.
The idea that a political party is antidemocratic seems outrageous to the author but most of history has political parties subverting the system of democracy to their aim for power. Thai people understand this quite well (and at least 40% or so accept such a tradeoff). Western observers need to break out of their blinders in order to understand this country.
I heard rumours that the so called “people putsch” is only a democratic front for a military / elite faction attempt to take control of the government to manage the succession. International community would not accept direct military junta – but maybe they would swallo this “people revolution” bullshit?
Thank you very much for this interesting summary. It would be very helpful for me – having spent a bit of time in Isaan over the years – to have the underlying and seemingly intractable issues explained and discussed. It does seem to me that whatever the outcome of the turmoil in BKK there will be little, if any, significant benefit for the rural poor in Isaan.
The Thaksin system is unstoppable. But wait … hey. The Suthep gang has developed a brilliant plan to employ BIOLOGICAL WEAPONS against the unstoppable Thaksin system!
” … It was reported that the demonstrators had faecal suction trucks ready to use …”
That’s awesome! I’m sufficiently inspired by their biological invention that I’m ready to iron and suit myself again with fighting uniform! I’m ready for biological war against the Thaksin system, yeah!
Actually Forbes does regularly track the richest families and largest companies in almost every country in the world, as many of my students learned while researching multinational corporations for class projects. Their journalist ‘niche’ is in-depth information on global business and finance and they have a significant research arm that tracks these things (and BTW their researchers/reporters don’t just credulously believe everything they are told – although of course they may not be able to get the whole picture).
Whether or not Thaksin and co are hiding significant assets (and I suspect they are), it seems clear that the Shinawatra’s nevertheless have some real competition for the “richest family” title in Thailand:
I never said the King should be thrown out, those are your words. I think the monarchy should be preserved but without the mystery surrounding it or the monopoly it represents in terms of power, prestige and privilege.
And talking of monopolies the Shinawatra empire – like all other big business groups in Thailand- has been built by exclusively cornering lucrative sectors of the economy. Ultimately this business method is an imitation of the model of monarchy, where one institution is preserved at the cost of every other in the country. Getting rid of Thaksin by itself will solve no problems in Thailand as the entire national elite is full of ‘mini-Thaksins’. Breaking the mirror that shows your true face is a foolish thing to do and even suicidal as the splinters are likely to end up killing you.
The only way to ensure Thailand remains a sane and stable society is by changing the grossly unequal power and income balance between the entire elite and the ordinary Thai citizens. There is a fairly good chance of that happening now and that is why Thailand still has the possibility of becoming an example of true democracy in the future. All power to the Thai people and none to their squabbling masters!
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Who can stop the Thaksin system?
Actually, Forbes does not regularly do in-depth studies. This is not common. I have seen the link to the page. I would like to see a hard copy of the original magazine. I do not believe the study is accurate at all. I do not know what their researchers believe or not, but I do not accept that Thaksin is only the tenth richest person in Thailand. I will check other sources, as well.
I do not think they have much competition and I doubt the veracity of this Forbes page regarding the wealth of Thaksin and co.
What does Suthep really want?
When THE PEOPLE triumph in Bangkok,the People’s Courts will be convened.Their goal will be to root out the Thaksin Regime.”Are you or have you ever been a member of the Thaksin Regime?” will be the question.Those found guilty will be sent to Santi Asoke farms to experience work, celibacy and vegetarianism,supervised by former regime member Chamlong.
Who can stop the Thaksin system?
The answers to this article are told by men with vast freedom fighting experience like Surachai sae Dan, Arcom Sydney (tprud.org), Chupong Teetuan(norporchorusa).
By the way this is a great blog even though its infested by cockcroaches.
Who’s who in Thailand’s anti-government forces?
So the hopelessly out-numbered Rajamangala Red Shirts have left – not without a fight.
This week’s The Economist’s leader article,(p.15, Nov.30) :”Thailand’s constitution not only has undemocratic elements, but also gives the central government too much power. That has helped fuel a long-running bloody conflict in the Muslim south. It may yet help spark another in the Thaksin-supporting north-east”.
Thailand’s elite coup culture
I agree with Arthurson. If violence escalates (as it may well do) General Prayuth is in a quandary. Does he stage a coup, and if so who does he support? 2006 was a failure for the army in every way. As Arthurson says, Peua Thai has not interfered with the annual military promotions nor the inflated arms procurement budget. Who will he support? And who put Suthep up to this campaign? It is hard not to believe that he has not embarked on this attempted coup without tacit approval from certain establishment and military figures. Note the meeting between Prayuth, Suthep and Yingluck. Was it real or cosmetic? We know who directs Yingluck’s decisions. But who is directing Suthep’s strategy? There are surely “dark figures” behind his campaign. Is General Prayuth seeking a position of neutrality? If, after escalating violence he intervenes “in the national interest” on whose behalf will it be?
What is to be done in Thailand?
Excellent points.
People prefer the narrative of revolution to the messy complex reality.
Its sad that taking sides, avoiding real issues, and untying the Gordian knots that make up this shoe mess, is preferable. Its doubly sad that not only people detached from the scene do that, but so do important actors who make the good v evil narrative work for their own benefit.
Neither side is championing rights and democracy. Don’t people get that?
Frustrated.
What is to be done in Thailand?
The figure of 2,500 is well documented. Good ole Wikipedia refers to 14 different sources, rather more than most claims.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Thailand#Deaths_relating_to_the_2003_war_on_drugs
Here is just one source.
http://stopthedrugwar.org/chronicle/2007/nov/30/southeast_asia_most_killed_thail – noting that
“The death toll was highest in February when the policy was first implemented. The number of deaths had lowered in the two following months,…”
So, anyway, quite a lot of people were killed as soon as the policy was implemented.
I am open to alternative accounts. If the number is propaganda, please do let me know. It is a key issue in the background to this whole sorry time.
What is to be done in Thailand?
Please don’t cease your analysis at the slippery word “democracy” but look to how it is implemented and acted out across the nation.
If you don’t wish to look at that, how do you know the process is democratic? By listening to Amsterdam above, or other PR minions?
Both sides are guilty of much, and have much to gain.
For me, I would not want a president/prime minister who had authorised the extra-judicial killing of 2,500 people under the banner of a drugs war.
Would you want that person as your leader, … in your country …. ? IS that the price to pay for the slippery linguistic claim to “democracy”?
Review of Singapore, ASEAN and the Cambodian Conflict
[…] http://www.newmandala.org/2013/10/10/review-of-singapore-asean-cambodian-conflict-tlc… […]
Who’s who in Thailand’s anti-government forces?
The idea that everyone on the street is “deluded” is altogether patronizing and completely misses the point. Obviously different people and different groups have different perceptions and are motivated by different goals.
Yes, to some extent there is a disconnect between the actual goals between different people, but they all are being united behind an anti-Thaksin banner. That is what happened before. Sure there is media manipulation and people and the leaders are making plans behind the scene that are much less innocent and much more manipulative than the average protester is aware of or would share. What is new with that? How many political movements are so altogether different?
I am not justifying these activities, but the kind of anti-demonstrator commentary coming from English language sources is really not helpful and doesn’t connect with the motivations of the protestors, and so underestimates or dismisses the actual magnitude of actions being taken.
In the end one cannot simply dismiss this or so easily summarize it as Democrats-Yellowshirts-Students. Yes, this is a useful summary but not enough to explain events or what will happen next.
Who’s who in Thailand’s anti-government forces?
Like this article, we need more informed info than the press are giving in Thailand and internationally. The distant rhetoric narrative of good versus evil is depressing. So thanks for this informative article.
However, why have you not performed a similar analysis on the Shinawatra machine? Why is transparancy, naming and your barely concealed analysis above the purely descriptive, reserved for what you term the old blood?
In order to understand what is going on, a similar analysis of the machine or dispositif of the “red shirts” is required. Otherwise your essay merely unpacks the uncritical.
Please, critique from multiple angles to maintain perspective and to justify your analysis.
There are powerful machines on both sides of this particularly depressing equation. Unpacking only one is rather suspect.
Peace for all Thais.
Assault on Nick Nostitz
Good luck to Nick in devoting the next decade or so in pursuing justice through the Thai and German courts. Claiming damages in Thailand would involve a detailed disclosure his income backed up by notarised receipts from the Revenue Department. Damages awards in the case of death where it was quite clear that earning power had been impaired, e.g. the Santika fire, have been derisory and this claim would involve putting a rather complex argument before the Thai court. The judge would quite likely rule that allegations of being a red shirt sympathiser were not defamatory, since that sould be applied to the entire cabinet without impairment of their earnings power, while passing on information of criminal wrongdoings is simply a civic duty that anyone should be proud to perform.
To cap it all, if Nick won in the Thai court the defendant would be ordered to publish the ruling including the defamatory material in several newspapers, thereby repeating the defamation. Meanwhile, the sponsors of BlueSkyChannelTV might countersue Nick separately in every Southern province where his writings could have been accessed via the Internet and have him running around the country to different court hearings of the same charges like Andrew Drummond is doing at the moment.
Suing in a German court would not be very worthwhile unless Clara Holzer turns out to be a real person and German to boot, as her name suggests, with impoundable assets there. I am sure BlueSky doesn’t have any.
Realistically threats of legal action would ring very hollow indeed and would only make it take longer for all this to blow over and allow Nick get back to work.
Who’s who in Thailand’s anti-government forces?
The idea that a political party is antidemocratic seems outrageous to the author but most of history has political parties subverting the system of democracy to their aim for power. Thai people understand this quite well (and at least 40% or so accept such a tradeoff). Western observers need to break out of their blinders in order to understand this country.
Thailand’s elite coup culture
I heard rumours that the so called “people putsch” is only a democratic front for a military / elite faction attempt to take control of the government to manage the succession. International community would not accept direct military junta – but maybe they would swallo this “people revolution” bullshit?
Who’s who in Thailand’s anti-government forces?
Thank you very much for this interesting summary. It would be very helpful for me – having spent a bit of time in Isaan over the years – to have the underlying and seemingly intractable issues explained and discussed. It does seem to me that whatever the outcome of the turmoil in BKK there will be little, if any, significant benefit for the rural poor in Isaan.
Who can stop the Thaksin system?
The Thaksin system is unstoppable. But wait … hey. The Suthep gang has developed a brilliant plan to employ BIOLOGICAL WEAPONS against the unstoppable Thaksin system!
” … It was reported that the demonstrators had faecal suction trucks ready to use …”
http://www.bangkokpost.com/breakingnews/382806/tankers-with-faecal-matter-to-counter-police-tear-gas.
That’s awesome! I’m sufficiently inspired by their biological invention that I’m ready to iron and suit myself again with fighting uniform! I’m ready for biological war against the Thaksin system, yeah!
Who can stop the Thaksin system?
Actually Forbes does regularly track the richest families and largest companies in almost every country in the world, as many of my students learned while researching multinational corporations for class projects. Their journalist ‘niche’ is in-depth information on global business and finance and they have a significant research arm that tracks these things (and BTW their researchers/reporters don’t just credulously believe everything they are told – although of course they may not be able to get the whole picture).
Whether or not Thaksin and co are hiding significant assets (and I suspect they are), it seems clear that the Shinawatra’s nevertheless have some real competition for the “richest family” title in Thailand:
http://www.forbes.com/thailand-billionaires/list/
Who can stop the Thaksin system?
Check this out for the most recent Forbes list of richest people in Thailand…and this does not include the Monarch yet:
http://www.forbes.com/thailand-billionaires/list/
Who can stop the Thaksin system?
Has “to Cambodian” always been a verb in Thai? What exactly does it mean, to “cambodian”?
Thailand’s elite coup culture
I never said the King should be thrown out, those are your words. I think the monarchy should be preserved but without the mystery surrounding it or the monopoly it represents in terms of power, prestige and privilege.
And talking of monopolies the Shinawatra empire – like all other big business groups in Thailand- has been built by exclusively cornering lucrative sectors of the economy. Ultimately this business method is an imitation of the model of monarchy, where one institution is preserved at the cost of every other in the country. Getting rid of Thaksin by itself will solve no problems in Thailand as the entire national elite is full of ‘mini-Thaksins’. Breaking the mirror that shows your true face is a foolish thing to do and even suicidal as the splinters are likely to end up killing you.
The only way to ensure Thailand remains a sane and stable society is by changing the grossly unequal power and income balance between the entire elite and the ordinary Thai citizens. There is a fairly good chance of that happening now and that is why Thailand still has the possibility of becoming an example of true democracy in the future. All power to the Thai people and none to their squabbling masters!