Agreed – this census will be an intensely political event.
My understanding is that the 2014 census will offer the 135 ethnic classifications listed as the national races plus the category “other”. The 135 are usually divided into eight clusters. The name of each cluster, and the first classification within it, matches the current name of each of the seven states plus the generic name for the regions (Bamar). These eight are officially referred to as the “major races”.
Confronted with a clearly lengthy census document, in (for many) a foreign language, a likely default response will be to tick one of the eight major-race classifications. It will require some effort or guidance to search out a potentially more self-aligned classification. ‘Minor-race” counts are likely to be diluted into multiple classifications e.g. even should the majority of people residing in Kachin State not identify as Kachin, many of them will identify as “minor” Shan classifications rather than Shan per se.
Local school-teachers will provide the person-power to carry out the census count. They are overwhelmingly Burman-speaking and most will self-identify as Bamar. Their assistance in filling out census forms will influence the count. At the same time, campaigns by clan, culture and new political groupings will result in numbers of “minor-race” citizens residing in other countries returning for the census.
Moe Aung, I appreciate your point that this is more complex (even) than Yugoslavia. Bosnia is now concluding its first census in 22 years. It has been described as “resembling an election more than a census”. As will be the case in Myanmar, campaigning around the census has been intense, including a movement for citizens to self-identify as “other” and thus challenge the country’s system of ethnic politics. While not a bad idea, such a movement is not going to fly in 2014. “Other” as a 136th option is very different from “other” as a 4th option. And in Myanmar, identifying as “other” will not mark you as a progressive, but put you into a group with Indians, Chinese, itinerant carpet-baggers and other expatriates “not residing in an Embassy compound on census night”.
Significant census campaigns in Bosnia have also been led by the “major-races”, in particular the Bosniaks in their goal of establishing a 50%+ head-count. Variations on this are likely in 2014, both at local and national level. .
Thankfully the Australian government has given Mr. Anwar Ibrahim a visa to speak at the Adelaide Festival of Ideas.
Mr. Anwar Ibrahim who also has several pending court cases, will be introduced by Senator Xenaphon, and will have a conversation with Waleed Aly on the topic of “Dissent and Democracy”.
The Military is inimical to progress in Burma. Burma has gone down hill since U Nu. Most Burmese do not support the military (I have been to Burma). The NLD has not been given a chance to prove itself politically by the military. Perhaps Aung San Suu Kyi can run Burma; I don’t know. But the military has raped the country and must go.
Burmese Socialism did not start with Ne Win
or Than Shwe. The concept began with Aung San and was conceptualized by U Nu. But it
was overtaken by the military who abused the
concept and used it to sustain their rule over the country.
Sorry, Lleij. But if you haven’t been there you can’t comment with any credibility. That’s the rule. You just have to take his word for it that you cannot compare Israel with Malaysia, capiche?
An UMNO politician claimed that an unwritten policy of no longer granting banking license to the Chinese was implemented since the 80’s after Dr Mahathir was briefed about such policy utilized against Jews under Nazi. No UMNO politicians, including the former PM, had refuted such claim despite it making headlines!!
Do not ‘personalize” my comment. Judge it on merit, not personal experience.
One question regarding this and other series – not only in Thailand – is what is their objective. Is the aim to enlighten an audience of problems and life styles of youth? Is it to provide entertainment for young people by using figures they can identify with? Is it to showcase the rich and beautiful, or is it merely to make money? The main problem of all private stations is how to make a profit. Usually this is done by either making the advertisements more expensive, what depends on the quota of listeners, or to reduce the cost for production. Best is to combine both. Here hormones is certainly an excellent example. Unfortunately, the NBTC gave the series an even wider audience (at least on the internet). The problem is not this series. The problem is that there are hardly any series or movies produced with sufficient quality in terms of plot, technique and skills of the actors.
“Still you can take the man out of Israel, you can’t take Israel out of the man..”
So you can take the man out of Burma but not the Burman out of the man ?
You complain of my generalizations in your post and then you make a stereotype and generalization at the end of your post. Your comments shows you cannot be objective about Israel or Jews.
If follows that I have lived in Malay(si)a
a long time, as well as Israel and you have not. Knowledge develops from first-hand experience. Nobody says you can’t have an opinion, but yours is not based on a direct
knowledge of Israel or its people.
My posts are not “longwinded and repetitive”..but sometimes yours are ad hominem, flippant and lack credibility.
And I have visited Rangoon (Yangon) and Mandalay. Have you been to Israel ? No…
A very interesting and valid point, Des. Remote areas may have a more exclusive demographic but many more accessible areas are a bit of a melting pot, Indian and Chinese communities included.
The other point about Burma’s minorities is that they themselves are hardly monolithic comprised of smaller minorities within those territorial and electoral boundaries. You already have the Palaung and the Wa who do not wish to be subsumed within the Shan state. It looks like a more complex conundrum than Yugoslavia, not to mention China or India. I guess PR still has some mileage.
Meanwhile the minorities get busy drafting a new federalist constitution, perhaps somewhat prematurely. We all know what kind of bargaining position they, and for that matter the Burman opposition, enjoy.
Like the majority of people in the advanced liberal democracies have a “non-personalised view of local politics and history”? Do we sense a smidgen of a superiority complex here?
Granted the swinish multitude shows a stronger herd instinct in our part of the world (ASSK and the Burmese for instance), but are we forgetting the two world wars, the Cold War, and the unabated aggression in the name of ‘freedom and democracy’ (read local through regional to global resource grabbing and I suppose the majority are insightful enough to see through that)? The world would have been a better place had love thy neighbour and all the rest prevailed. The reality on the ground is very different.
yes – nicholas – Thailand has stormy times behind and the break in the society is not yet healed.
But unlike you , I believe that there are very clear signs of stabilization and democratization in the society. Also, the separation of powers is slowly but surely prevailed.
The military has returned to the barracks and will remain there
– As a result that the king and the queen went to their “retirement”, something fundamental has changed in Thai politics – and paves the way for a new ” Free Thailand ” so that it can finally be living up to its name ” land of the free ” .
Since the king and queen are in Hua Hin gradually returns normality in political life.
– But this also shows very clearly that the two not just “constitutional characters” had been – but very political.
With their end – see also the military coups and double standarts in the Court an end.
It is not a process that goes abruptly – but you can still clearly see the change.
That – what with the death of Ananda and the help of Sarit began – will be finally over
Does it follow that Jews should focus on Jewish politics i.e. global, so should Americans ditto… they are everywhere and the world is their oyster? The rest just ain’t worthy?
Does it follow too that every Burmese/Malaysian/Israeli is knowledgeable let alone a credible analyst in their respective history and politics?
Two wrongs do not make one right. You said it. I’d say no one has a monopoly on aggression and indefensible atrocities in this world regardless of conventional wisdom /propaganda.
I did read your posts in their entirety however longwinded and repetitive. Granted there is some fairness and objectivity. Still you can take the man out of Israel, you can’t take Israel out of the man.
As the BN continues to lose its grip on Malaysia, it keeps returning to Islamism as a political strategy, which only serves to alienate the Malaysian electorate. For now at least, they are not willing to jeopardize economic stability to bring about a change. Still, as the election in May revealed, that might not last for long.
I am afraid I have to agree with you. There
are some Malaysians that are able to take a non-personalized view of local politics and history, but they are not the majority. It is usually either you are pro or anti-UMNO, pro or anti-PR, pro or anti-PAS and so on and so forth.
I believe The level of maturity in Malaysian politics is very low indeed, which is why I don’t think Malaysia is prepared for full democracy, nor do I see anyone on the horizon
who has the capacity to lead the country ethically and responsibly (my opinion). I feel both the BN and the opposition (PR and DAP) lack sufficient credibility to claim the mantle of power in Malaysia. Clearly, many people are fed-up with UMNO, but does that
translate to an opposition-led Malaysian Government that can heal the divides that tear the nation apart ? I have my doubts….
Sad to know that majority need to wait for the day of economic crisis, unemployment high rate, graduate can’t find job, corruption till poor country …etc then only awake to go protest? Too late … Protest also no use, that time is to “Cabut” not “Bersih” anymore… Wait till cancer only see doctor ah???
Most (not all) constituencies will be contests between members of the same ethnic group.
This depends on whether electorates and political leaderships see the constituencies more as ethnic homelands than as electoral constituencies. The planned 2014 census may further muddy the waters.
The census numbers will show very different patterns from the current myths of settlement, and from the patterns that could (but can’t) be shown on an aggregation of national registration card information. Starting from the national guestimates, current UN agency figures totter in a range between 50m and 58m. The 8m (at least) ghosts could play a key national hand in 2015.
At regional level, so could e.g “Chin” voters in Sagaing, or “Mon” voters in Bago. It is possible that a majority of people residing within the current borders of the “Kachin” state will not so classify themselves at census (the “Shan Tribes” told Tomas Quintana in August that two-thirds of the state’s population is Shan).
Certainly homeland parties will be better established and organized, and many non-homeland voters are tied by NRC’s or sentiment to “go home to vote”. However, the census and elections will expose the fragility of a Union defined by post-war ethnic boundaries.
“Please refrain from personalizing this discussion”
when anyone these days talks about malaysian policies, politics, history or social trends, malaysians cannot refrain from personalising their remarks against those they dont agree with. the opposition supporters especially carry with them this “you are with us or against us” totalitarian attitude. with such people, no meaningful discussion is possible. if you have to say something they dont agree, you have to be prepared for old mother-in-law type of quarrels.
Extrajudicial killing is common in Malaysia.
Zahid seems to approve of it. There are many
Indonesians in Malaysia who do work that Malaysians won’t. Many Malaysians complain
that Indonesians increase crime there; some do but there is also scapegoating involved. Not all Indonesians in Malaysia are criminals. Of course, if Malaysians are willing to do more ‘menial’ (such work is in fact important and not really menial) work, in construction and hotel cleaning and so forth, they don’t need to import Indonesian workers.
You are Burmese or from Burma aren’t you ? You have never been to Israel have you ? So your knowledge of Israel is second-hand. Israel is not a regional bully. Israel does not massacre its people like Syria under Assad or Hezbollah which has taken over Lebanon or in practically every Muslim nation. I see no comments here about the slaughter committed by Assad on a daily basis, or the persecution of both Muslim and non-Muslim minorities throughout the Muslim world; the bombing of Shiite and Ahmadiyya mosques in Pakistan, the bullying of Ahmadiyyas in Indonesia, and the torture of ethnic Arab Sunnis in Shiite Iran. The lack of Democracy in the Islamic world remains a global impediment to world progress.
Maybe you should focus on Burmese politics
since that might be your better area of
knowledge ?
You do not read my posts in their entirety. I defend Israel as a Democracy yet I have also critized people (e.g., Lieberman) and actions (need for more economic development for Israeli-Arabs) when and where I judge there to be need for improvement. I am not a right or wrong person vis-a-vis Israel, as many anti-Israel believers would like to think about supporters of Israel, Zionists and Jews in general.
Negative and false stereotyping of Jews and Israel is rampant on these boards and throughout the world. My point in posting
commentaries by Muslims who support Israel
is that there are different points of view,
even among a few Muslims, about Israel. Just
as in Israel, there are different points of
view. Israel, again for the (hopefully) last
time, is not Burma, Malaysia, Sri Lanka, or
any other country and comparisons have no validity.
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Myanmar could learn from Germany
Agreed – this census will be an intensely political event.
My understanding is that the 2014 census will offer the 135 ethnic classifications listed as the national races plus the category “other”. The 135 are usually divided into eight clusters. The name of each cluster, and the first classification within it, matches the current name of each of the seven states plus the generic name for the regions (Bamar). These eight are officially referred to as the “major races”.
Confronted with a clearly lengthy census document, in (for many) a foreign language, a likely default response will be to tick one of the eight major-race classifications. It will require some effort or guidance to search out a potentially more self-aligned classification. ‘Minor-race” counts are likely to be diluted into multiple classifications e.g. even should the majority of people residing in Kachin State not identify as Kachin, many of them will identify as “minor” Shan classifications rather than Shan per se.
Local school-teachers will provide the person-power to carry out the census count. They are overwhelmingly Burman-speaking and most will self-identify as Bamar. Their assistance in filling out census forms will influence the count. At the same time, campaigns by clan, culture and new political groupings will result in numbers of “minor-race” citizens residing in other countries returning for the census.
Moe Aung, I appreciate your point that this is more complex (even) than Yugoslavia. Bosnia is now concluding its first census in 22 years. It has been described as “resembling an election more than a census”. As will be the case in Myanmar, campaigning around the census has been intense, including a movement for citizens to self-identify as “other” and thus challenge the country’s system of ethnic politics. While not a bad idea, such a movement is not going to fly in 2014. “Other” as a 136th option is very different from “other” as a 4th option. And in Myanmar, identifying as “other” will not mark you as a progressive, but put you into a group with Indians, Chinese, itinerant carpet-baggers and other expatriates “not residing in an Embassy compound on census night”.
Significant census campaigns in Bosnia have also been led by the “major-races”, in particular the Bosniaks in their goal of establishing a 50%+ head-count. Variations on this are likely in 2014, both at local and national level. .
Cancellation of Haris Ibrahim’s seminar
Thankfully the Australian government has given Mr. Anwar Ibrahim a visa to speak at the Adelaide Festival of Ideas.
Mr. Anwar Ibrahim who also has several pending court cases, will be introduced by Senator Xenaphon, and will have a conversation with Waleed Aly on the topic of “Dissent and Democracy”.
http://tix.adelaidefilmfestival.org/session2_aff.asp?sn=Dissent+and+Democracy%3A+An+Audience+with+Anwar+Ibrahim
Military can still be good state-builders for Myanmar
The Military is inimical to progress in Burma. Burma has gone down hill since U Nu. Most Burmese do not support the military (I have been to Burma). The NLD has not been given a chance to prove itself politically by the military. Perhaps Aung San Suu Kyi can run Burma; I don’t know. But the military has raped the country and must go.
Burmese Socialism did not start with Ne Win
or Than Shwe. The concept began with Aung San and was conceptualized by U Nu. But it
was overtaken by the military who abused the
concept and used it to sustain their rule over the country.
UMNO and Nazi Germany
Sorry, Lleij. But if you haven’t been there you can’t comment with any credibility. That’s the rule. You just have to take his word for it that you cannot compare Israel with Malaysia, capiche?
UMNO and Nazi Germany
An UMNO politician claimed that an unwritten policy of no longer granting banking license to the Chinese was implemented since the 80’s after Dr Mahathir was briefed about such policy utilized against Jews under Nazi. No UMNO politicians, including the former PM, had refuted such claim despite it making headlines!!
Do not ‘personalize” my comment. Judge it on merit, not personal experience.
Hormones: Temporary chemistry of rebellion
One question regarding this and other series – not only in Thailand – is what is their objective. Is the aim to enlighten an audience of problems and life styles of youth? Is it to provide entertainment for young people by using figures they can identify with? Is it to showcase the rich and beautiful, or is it merely to make money? The main problem of all private stations is how to make a profit. Usually this is done by either making the advertisements more expensive, what depends on the quota of listeners, or to reduce the cost for production. Best is to combine both. Here hormones is certainly an excellent example. Unfortunately, the NBTC gave the series an even wider audience (at least on the internet). The problem is not this series. The problem is that there are hardly any series or movies produced with sufficient quality in terms of plot, technique and skills of the actors.
UMNO and Nazi Germany
As Malaysia marches toward the bleak future of ethno-religious genocide predicted in Bacigalupi’s 2006 story, “Yellow Card Man”,/a>, the chattering classes of New Mandala turn their attention toward Israel?
What’s the opposite of “cultural cringe”?
UMNO and Nazi Germany
“Still you can take the man out of Israel, you can’t take Israel out of the man..”
So you can take the man out of Burma but not the Burman out of the man ?
You complain of my generalizations in your post and then you make a stereotype and generalization at the end of your post. Your comments shows you cannot be objective about Israel or Jews.
If follows that I have lived in Malay(si)a
a long time, as well as Israel and you have not. Knowledge develops from first-hand experience. Nobody says you can’t have an opinion, but yours is not based on a direct
knowledge of Israel or its people.
My posts are not “longwinded and repetitive”..but sometimes yours are ad hominem, flippant and lack credibility.
And I have visited Rangoon (Yangon) and Mandalay. Have you been to Israel ? No…
Chin Peng and cleavages in Malaysian society
My goodness ! I didn’t know he had large properties and plantations. Where are they located ? In Malaysia or in Thailand ?
I sure hope you can produce the proof for your statements …
Myanmar could learn from Germany
A very interesting and valid point, Des. Remote areas may have a more exclusive demographic but many more accessible areas are a bit of a melting pot, Indian and Chinese communities included.
The other point about Burma’s minorities is that they themselves are hardly monolithic comprised of smaller minorities within those territorial and electoral boundaries. You already have the Palaung and the Wa who do not wish to be subsumed within the Shan state. It looks like a more complex conundrum than Yugoslavia, not to mention China or India. I guess PR still has some mileage.
Meanwhile the minorities get busy drafting a new federalist constitution, perhaps somewhat prematurely. We all know what kind of bargaining position they, and for that matter the Burman opposition, enjoy.
Chin Peng and cleavages in Malaysian society
Like the majority of people in the advanced liberal democracies have a “non-personalised view of local politics and history”? Do we sense a smidgen of a superiority complex here?
Granted the swinish multitude shows a stronger herd instinct in our part of the world (ASSK and the Burmese for instance), but are we forgetting the two world wars, the Cold War, and the unabated aggression in the name of ‘freedom and democracy’ (read local through regional to global resource grabbing and I suppose the majority are insightful enough to see through that)? The world would have been a better place had love thy neighbour and all the rest prevailed. The reality on the ground is very different.
Thai politics, 14 October and all that
yes – nicholas – Thailand has stormy times behind and the break in the society is not yet healed.
But unlike you , I believe that there are very clear signs of stabilization and democratization in the society. Also, the separation of powers is slowly but surely prevailed.
The military has returned to the barracks and will remain there
– As a result that the king and the queen went to their “retirement”, something fundamental has changed in Thai politics – and paves the way for a new ” Free Thailand ” so that it can finally be living up to its name ” land of the free ” .
Since the king and queen are in Hua Hin gradually returns normality in political life.
– But this also shows very clearly that the two not just “constitutional characters” had been – but very political.
With their end – see also the military coups and double standarts in the Court an end.
It is not a process that goes abruptly – but you can still clearly see the change.
That – what with the death of Ananda and the help of Sarit began – will be finally over
UMNO and Nazi Germany
Does it follow that Jews should focus on Jewish politics i.e. global, so should Americans ditto… they are everywhere and the world is their oyster? The rest just ain’t worthy?
Does it follow too that every Burmese/Malaysian/Israeli is knowledgeable let alone a credible analyst in their respective history and politics?
Two wrongs do not make one right. You said it. I’d say no one has a monopoly on aggression and indefensible atrocities in this world regardless of conventional wisdom /propaganda.
I did read your posts in their entirety however longwinded and repetitive. Granted there is some fairness and objectivity. Still you can take the man out of Israel, you can’t take Israel out of the man.
Extremism in the name of Islam and Malaysian Muslims
Alarmist reporting?
http://www.foreignaffairs.com/features/letters-from/malaysian-malaise
Chin Peng and cleavages in Malaysian society
sgnative,
I am afraid I have to agree with you. There
are some Malaysians that are able to take a non-personalized view of local politics and history, but they are not the majority. It is usually either you are pro or anti-UMNO, pro or anti-PR, pro or anti-PAS and so on and so forth.
I believe The level of maturity in Malaysian politics is very low indeed, which is why I don’t think Malaysia is prepared for full democracy, nor do I see anyone on the horizon
who has the capacity to lead the country ethically and responsibly (my opinion). I feel both the BN and the opposition (PR and DAP) lack sufficient credibility to claim the mantle of power in Malaysia. Clearly, many people are fed-up with UMNO, but does that
translate to an opposition-led Malaysian Government that can heal the divides that tear the nation apart ? I have my doubts….
Malaysia’s Lady Liberty
Sad to know that majority need to wait for the day of economic crisis, unemployment high rate, graduate can’t find job, corruption till poor country …etc then only awake to go protest? Too late … Protest also no use, that time is to “Cabut” not “Bersih” anymore… Wait till cancer only see doctor ah???
Myanmar could learn from Germany
Most (not all) constituencies will be contests between members of the same ethnic group.
This depends on whether electorates and political leaderships see the constituencies more as ethnic homelands than as electoral constituencies. The planned 2014 census may further muddy the waters.
The census numbers will show very different patterns from the current myths of settlement, and from the patterns that could (but can’t) be shown on an aggregation of national registration card information. Starting from the national guestimates, current UN agency figures totter in a range between 50m and 58m. The 8m (at least) ghosts could play a key national hand in 2015.
At regional level, so could e.g “Chin” voters in Sagaing, or “Mon” voters in Bago. It is possible that a majority of people residing within the current borders of the “Kachin” state will not so classify themselves at census (the “Shan Tribes” told Tomas Quintana in August that two-thirds of the state’s population is Shan).
Certainly homeland parties will be better established and organized, and many non-homeland voters are tied by NRC’s or sentiment to “go home to vote”. However, the census and elections will expose the fragility of a Union defined by post-war ethnic boundaries.
Chin Peng and cleavages in Malaysian society
“Please refrain from personalizing this discussion”
when anyone these days talks about malaysian policies, politics, history or social trends, malaysians cannot refrain from personalising their remarks against those they dont agree with. the opposition supporters especially carry with them this “you are with us or against us” totalitarian attitude. with such people, no meaningful discussion is possible. if you have to say something they dont agree, you have to be prepared for old mother-in-law type of quarrels.
UMNO and Nazi Germany
Extrajudicial killing is common in Malaysia.
Zahid seems to approve of it. There are many
Indonesians in Malaysia who do work that Malaysians won’t. Many Malaysians complain
that Indonesians increase crime there; some do but there is also scapegoating involved. Not all Indonesians in Malaysia are criminals. Of course, if Malaysians are willing to do more ‘menial’ (such work is in fact important and not really menial) work, in construction and hotel cleaning and so forth, they don’t need to import Indonesian workers.
UMNO and Nazi Germany
Moe Aung,
You are Burmese or from Burma aren’t you ? You have never been to Israel have you ? So your knowledge of Israel is second-hand. Israel is not a regional bully. Israel does not massacre its people like Syria under Assad or Hezbollah which has taken over Lebanon or in practically every Muslim nation. I see no comments here about the slaughter committed by Assad on a daily basis, or the persecution of both Muslim and non-Muslim minorities throughout the Muslim world; the bombing of Shiite and Ahmadiyya mosques in Pakistan, the bullying of Ahmadiyyas in Indonesia, and the torture of ethnic Arab Sunnis in Shiite Iran. The lack of Democracy in the Islamic world remains a global impediment to world progress.
Maybe you should focus on Burmese politics
since that might be your better area of
knowledge ?
You do not read my posts in their entirety. I defend Israel as a Democracy yet I have also critized people (e.g., Lieberman) and actions (need for more economic development for Israeli-Arabs) when and where I judge there to be need for improvement. I am not a right or wrong person vis-a-vis Israel, as many anti-Israel believers would like to think about supporters of Israel, Zionists and Jews in general.
Negative and false stereotyping of Jews and Israel is rampant on these boards and throughout the world. My point in posting
commentaries by Muslims who support Israel
is that there are different points of view,
even among a few Muslims, about Israel. Just
as in Israel, there are different points of
view. Israel, again for the (hopefully) last
time, is not Burma, Malaysia, Sri Lanka, or
any other country and comparisons have no validity.