Apologies for not getting back earlier. Been updating my own website and busy with household chores.
General sameness in the context I meant it is that perceived from a biased viewpoint where those reports are viewed as inaccurate, biased and written in ignorance and lack of understanding. The term was meant not as an accusation of the foreign content, but rather of the approach that many Thais and others sympathetic to the status quo view such reports. That is, they are often pumped together and viewed as one and the same, which they are from from being.
However, there is a tendency on the part of material that makes it to the mainstream media to be slanted toward a superficial view of events in the kingdom.
Should we conclude that ‘pretty’ PM Yingluck had failed with her Thailand reconciliation strategy? Pretty-face former Thai PM Abhisit had also failed miserably on that very same issue and for that failure Abhisit had been voted out of the Thai PM’s chair …
There’s another very reconciliation issue that the Yingluck regime is now have to grapple with. Rubber farmers are demanding the same degree of subsidy as that the rice farmers got. Somehow the YIngluck administration could not explain adequately or reconcile why her rice pledge (folly) subsidy (staggering financial losses notwitstanding) could not be repeated in the same degree (of folly and losses) with the rubber industry. After all, rubber farmers argue that the export value of their crop is $9.3 billion a year, compared with rice at $5.3 billion, and so they more than deserve an equivalent bailout.
“Maybe Thailand does want a republic and if so your Republic will open its history with one of the most corrupt individuals ever to
walk over Thailands people.”
Are you serious? I couldn’t see Abhisit getting enough votes.
Prof. U miss the crucial document of all ie THE MALAYSIA AGREEMENT 1963 esp Article 8. 20 points is NOT a legal document. In fact, there was no 20p at all. It was simply a 14 points submitted by Fuad n subsequently few days latter, few more points put forward. For this reason, u can’t find 20p being mentioned at all in the Cobbold Commission, IGC n d MA63. Some of d points were there yes.
In the case of England it’s hard to imagine Queen Elizabeth abdicating for a fellow who allegedly once wished that he was a tampon lodged in Camilla Parker Bowles’ fanny. How he ever lived that one down I’ll never know. But at least under the constitutional monarchy in England the Sex Pistols could could put out their classic ‘God Save the Queen’ and not sweat over the bollocks. Totally inconceivable in the ‘Land of Smiles’ – for such a ‘crime’ you’d been drawn and quartered, and that’s just for openers. A genuine constitutional monarchy where no-one is above/beyond the law would be an excellent thing in Thailand (sadly totally unimaginable). By the way I’m not a republican when it comes to this country and believe that slimeball (on many counts) Thaksin should be behind bars doing hard labour along with many other members of the upper echelons of Thai society whether they be ‘amart’ born to rulers or nouveau riche bandits (together with most of the police force and a whole host of serving and former high ranking military figures).
Kaen Phet,
Yes I agree with you that the so called ‘moment in Thai history’ could have been managed, but many Royals [ Queen of England ] absolutely refuse to hand over.
Imagine talking to Bhumibol about this , goodbye jail forever.You can only change the constitution enforcing veneration and worship when the country is stable. An all powerful one party Thaksin ruled democracy can not stabilise this country. You can see for yourself .
I know that the succession is a scary subject for reasons you suggest and others. Maybe Thailand does want a republic and if so your Republic will open its history with one of the most corrupt individuals ever to
walk over Thailands people.
While I agree that expanding the linguistic proficiency of journalists (and Malaysians) might improve coverage, I think that the major problem is the parachuting in of journalists – that is the big difference between Malaysia and Indonesia.
Malaysia’s politics is complex and multi-layered, and parachute journalists rarely scratch the surface of what goes on – I find ABC Radio Australia’s coverage is more nuanced than the broadsheets primarily because they are constantly focused on the area, and so have more specialist knowledge of what is happening (and a large number of (ex-)Malaysians on the staff).
Even within Malaysia, journalists from the peninsula don’t appreciate the complexity, or importance, of politics in East Malaysia, so it’s perhaps a little difficult to expect foreigners to understand our politics. And that points to the other major difference between at least Thailand and Indonesia with Malaysia: the quality of the local English-language press. I’ve had KL-based foreign correspondents complain that in Malaysia because of the poor quality of our newspapers and local sources, they have to work much harder than elsewhere.
And lastly, I think that the point of Malaysia’s importance to Australia is important. How much coverage do we give to Timor Leste, Cambodia, or Vietnam? Compared to Australia, the UK and the USA? The difference is that Malaysia should be quite important to Australia, if only measured in terms of the diaspora residing there. Perhaps if our diaspora identified more as ‘Malaysian’ and exerted pressure on the Australian government and media (as they/ we did during Bersih rallies), coverage of Malaysia in the Australian media would improve.
I must agree with Prach that the majority of Thai people know Hitler through “Pop Culture.” The information presented under “some Thais are willing to say” are too academic and too detailed for the majority of Thais to know about the third Reich. Some Thais are representing those of whom who have been educated in the West or who were fortunate to have a Western style education in Thailand. Thai educational system is an utter failure when it comes to history and current events. Thais do not know that they were once part of the Khmer empire that Khmer blood runs through them. I was briefly educated in Thailand through the 10th grade in Isaan. And the little Thai history that we got was marred by legend. For example, King Naresuan and his brother were reincarnated of Krishna and Rama (Pha Lak and Pha Ram). In the civic class it was about who could “Wai” the prettiest. A comment by a guest of the New Mandala, who had just hosted two law-graduated from Thailand, confirms what I already knew that the Thai educational system has not change in the last 30 years (see comment by Jayzee).
Another point I want to make is about how “some Thais” classify themselves as “middle-class” Thais. My intention certainly is not to bash anyone but to point out how “out-of-touch” the Thais are. Putting in a search word, “Thai’s view,” I came across a piece of writing by an author who described herself and her family as a “middle-class” Thai family. The author was educated in Germany and both of her parents were educated “abroad.” If the author is considering her family middle-class, my Thai family, despite having generations of teachers, nurses, and now a doctor, would have been considered poor or petit bourgeois. They certainly cannot afford to go abroad for an education in America or in Europe. Certainly, Khun Doctor, a cousin, now can afford to go abroad for his education, but his parents, both of whom were teachers, would have to go broke in order to educate him in the West. The author is of the upper middle-class no doubt according to the economy ladder of the West, but certainly she is not a middle-class Thai. I am aware that during the last decade and a half more Thais have been entering into the middle-class stratum than ever before and poverty has been declining. This is no doubt a bright spot in the Thai society, but the fact remains of the income gap between the rich, the true Thai middle-class, and the poor. If what Mr. Satrusaya said about “some Thais are willing to say” are indeed true, (which to me represent the very educated Thais and some of the arrogant well-to-do, who are certainly not of the middle class Thai) then I must have to say that Thais as a nation are simply “out-of-touch.”
I agree fully with the point that there is much, much more in Malay, Mandarin, Tamil, Iban and Kadazan media that is rich, complex and newsworthy. This point would well be taken by Malaysians as well who limit their source of news and resulting point of view to that of only 1 or 2 languages.
I agree with your point that it would be great if more Australian journalists spoke languages other than English while reporting from Malaysia.
However, I’m not sure where you got the idea that the situation is much better for Aust media in Indonesia. Most, if not all, of the Jakarta correspondents at the main Oz media companies do not speak much Indonesian. Because Aust media has bureaus in Jakarta and therefore more staff (including local hires) the quality of reportage is probably better than of Malaysia. But it’s not because of Aust for. corr. language skills in Indonesian.
Merdeka Day also marks the anniversary of the Federal Constitution. As such, there is some basis to bring up Prof. RB’s initiative. More than half a century later, Malaysians are only beginning to think in terms of a rights discourse based on the constitution. Can this initiative be, at the least, quite timely?
Nothing wrong about returning to old questions, as different generations and contexts may have new light to shed.Can Angry Grey please “bore” us with the details as to how the questions, and the answers, are old … perhaps it is our minds that have dulled with age … not the issues, questions or answers.
The inference raised that that Prof. RB contributes “for his name to be known” is absolutely unnesessary and still in sore need of a dedicated apology alongside a full scale review of his website by Angry Grey.
New Mandala Malaysia (kudos to Greg and co.) is gaining traction as a foci of good conversation on Malaysia’s past and present. The organisers and contributors need to be praised and prodded to do even better. They certainly do not need to be the subjects of unfounded and unnecessary criticism.
I would not interpret that as “The people don’t understand the legal system” but you have a very interesting perspective and more broadly your point that there is no new perspective provided on postings about Malaysia on NM other than negative posts requires a proper discussion.
Could I ask you then to kindly provide a review of Rueban’s website & blog (Jurist Malaya Initiative).
I would be most happy to publish it on New Mandala. I believe your review would set an excellent basis for a discussion and debate about Malaysia, and hopefully some suggestions that could meet your ideas that would constitute new perspectives, and possibly also shed light on the positive aspects of Malaysia.
thanks for this post Mr Pavin, I felt really sad when I read it. I wish people like you did follow the trail earlier.
Isn’t it sad one day you just go missing and everyone forgets. You and I also
Is Thailand’s reconciliation process moving forward, backward or nowhere? Many important world leaders (and experts on national reconciliation I am led to believe) were invited by Thai reconciliation-focused Yingluck and making their insights now known, including Former Finland president and Nobel winner Martti Ahtisaari, Priscilla Hayner, senior adviser to the Centre for Humanitarian Dialogue, and former British prime minister Tony Blair addressed the forum.
Me thinks that after the speeches, Yingluck will fly out of Bangkok again to somewhere unimportant to negotiate for unimportant deals for unimportant Thailand … and reconciliation ennui sets it and old animosities stirred.
“…we have never had the benefit of the correct understanding of the ideal of the rule of law or legality as a principle of political legitimacy that shapes our legal and political culture; we have never interpreted our Constitution by reference to a sound understanding that ideal.”
Could you kindly provide the text/paragraph/article where you have interpreted that Rueban has said that “The people don’t understand the legal system.”
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Pesky foreigners
Apologies for not getting back earlier. Been updating my own website and busy with household chores.
General sameness in the context I meant it is that perceived from a biased viewpoint where those reports are viewed as inaccurate, biased and written in ignorance and lack of understanding. The term was meant not as an accusation of the foreign content, but rather of the approach that many Thais and others sympathetic to the status quo view such reports. That is, they are often pumped together and viewed as one and the same, which they are from from being.
However, there is a tendency on the part of material that makes it to the mainstream media to be slanted toward a superficial view of events in the kingdom.
Left out of reconciliation?
Should we conclude that ‘pretty’ PM Yingluck had failed with her Thailand reconciliation strategy? Pretty-face former Thai PM Abhisit had also failed miserably on that very same issue and for that failure Abhisit had been voted out of the Thai PM’s chair …
There’s another very reconciliation issue that the Yingluck regime is now have to grapple with. Rubber farmers are demanding the same degree of subsidy as that the rice farmers got. Somehow the YIngluck administration could not explain adequately or reconcile why her rice pledge (folly) subsidy (staggering financial losses notwitstanding) could not be repeated in the same degree (of folly and losses) with the rubber industry. After all, rubber farmers argue that the export value of their crop is $9.3 billion a year, compared with rice at $5.3 billion, and so they more than deserve an equivalent bailout.
Read more: http://world.time.com/2013/09/04/thailands-protesting-rubber-farmers-reflect-deeper-social-divisions/#ixzz2e1Vt26jE
Defending the monarchy
“Maybe Thailand does want a republic and if so your Republic will open its history with one of the most corrupt individuals ever to
walk over Thailands people.”
Are you serious? I couldn’t see Abhisit getting enough votes.
East Malaysia: primus inter pares
Prof. U miss the crucial document of all ie THE MALAYSIA AGREEMENT 1963 esp Article 8. 20 points is NOT a legal document. In fact, there was no 20p at all. It was simply a 14 points submitted by Fuad n subsequently few days latter, few more points put forward. For this reason, u can’t find 20p being mentioned at all in the Cobbold Commission, IGC n d MA63. Some of d points were there yes.
Defending the monarchy
Charles Kinbote
In the case of England it’s hard to imagine Queen Elizabeth abdicating for a fellow who allegedly once wished that he was a tampon lodged in Camilla Parker Bowles’ fanny. How he ever lived that one down I’ll never know. But at least under the constitutional monarchy in England the Sex Pistols could could put out their classic ‘God Save the Queen’ and not sweat over the bollocks. Totally inconceivable in the ‘Land of Smiles’ – for such a ‘crime’ you’d been drawn and quartered, and that’s just for openers. A genuine constitutional monarchy where no-one is above/beyond the law would be an excellent thing in Thailand (sadly totally unimaginable). By the way I’m not a republican when it comes to this country and believe that slimeball (on many counts) Thaksin should be behind bars doing hard labour along with many other members of the upper echelons of Thai society whether they be ‘amart’ born to rulers or nouveau riche bandits (together with most of the police force and a whole host of serving and former high ranking military figures).
Malaysian Indians: A sad story
Sir, how are Indian doctors treated their ?
Defending the monarchy
Kaen Phet,
Yes I agree with you that the so called ‘moment in Thai history’ could have been managed, but many Royals [ Queen of England ] absolutely refuse to hand over.
Imagine talking to Bhumibol about this , goodbye jail forever.You can only change the constitution enforcing veneration and worship when the country is stable. An all powerful one party Thaksin ruled democracy can not stabilise this country. You can see for yourself .
I know that the succession is a scary subject for reasons you suggest and others. Maybe Thailand does want a republic and if so your Republic will open its history with one of the most corrupt individuals ever to
walk over Thailands people.
The Aussie media on Malaysia: Compromised representation or manicured distortion?
While I agree that expanding the linguistic proficiency of journalists (and Malaysians) might improve coverage, I think that the major problem is the parachuting in of journalists – that is the big difference between Malaysia and Indonesia.
Malaysia’s politics is complex and multi-layered, and parachute journalists rarely scratch the surface of what goes on – I find ABC Radio Australia’s coverage is more nuanced than the broadsheets primarily because they are constantly focused on the area, and so have more specialist knowledge of what is happening (and a large number of (ex-)Malaysians on the staff).
Even within Malaysia, journalists from the peninsula don’t appreciate the complexity, or importance, of politics in East Malaysia, so it’s perhaps a little difficult to expect foreigners to understand our politics. And that points to the other major difference between at least Thailand and Indonesia with Malaysia: the quality of the local English-language press. I’ve had KL-based foreign correspondents complain that in Malaysia because of the poor quality of our newspapers and local sources, they have to work much harder than elsewhere.
And lastly, I think that the point of Malaysia’s importance to Australia is important. How much coverage do we give to Timor Leste, Cambodia, or Vietnam? Compared to Australia, the UK and the USA? The difference is that Malaysia should be quite important to Australia, if only measured in terms of the diaspora residing there. Perhaps if our diaspora identified more as ‘Malaysian’ and exerted pressure on the Australian government and media (as they/ we did during Bersih rallies), coverage of Malaysia in the Australian media would improve.
Hitler again
I must agree with Prach that the majority of Thai people know Hitler through “Pop Culture.” The information presented under “some Thais are willing to say” are too academic and too detailed for the majority of Thais to know about the third Reich. Some Thais are representing those of whom who have been educated in the West or who were fortunate to have a Western style education in Thailand. Thai educational system is an utter failure when it comes to history and current events. Thais do not know that they were once part of the Khmer empire that Khmer blood runs through them. I was briefly educated in Thailand through the 10th grade in Isaan. And the little Thai history that we got was marred by legend. For example, King Naresuan and his brother were reincarnated of Krishna and Rama (Pha Lak and Pha Ram). In the civic class it was about who could “Wai” the prettiest. A comment by a guest of the New Mandala, who had just hosted two law-graduated from Thailand, confirms what I already knew that the Thai educational system has not change in the last 30 years (see comment by Jayzee).
Another point I want to make is about how “some Thais” classify themselves as “middle-class” Thais. My intention certainly is not to bash anyone but to point out how “out-of-touch” the Thais are. Putting in a search word, “Thai’s view,” I came across a piece of writing by an author who described herself and her family as a “middle-class” Thai family. The author was educated in Germany and both of her parents were educated “abroad.” If the author is considering her family middle-class, my Thai family, despite having generations of teachers, nurses, and now a doctor, would have been considered poor or petit bourgeois. They certainly cannot afford to go abroad for an education in America or in Europe. Certainly, Khun Doctor, a cousin, now can afford to go abroad for his education, but his parents, both of whom were teachers, would have to go broke in order to educate him in the West. The author is of the upper middle-class no doubt according to the economy ladder of the West, but certainly she is not a middle-class Thai. I am aware that during the last decade and a half more Thais have been entering into the middle-class stratum than ever before and poverty has been declining. This is no doubt a bright spot in the Thai society, but the fact remains of the income gap between the rich, the true Thai middle-class, and the poor. If what Mr. Satrusaya said about “some Thais are willing to say” are indeed true, (which to me represent the very educated Thais and some of the arrogant well-to-do, who are certainly not of the middle class Thai) then I must have to say that Thais as a nation are simply “out-of-touch.”
Critical review of King Bhumibol’s life
Only a fool or a publicity-hog would use their real name on the internet.
The Aussie media on Malaysia: Compromised representation or manicured distortion?
I agree fully with the point that there is much, much more in Malay, Mandarin, Tamil, Iban and Kadazan media that is rich, complex and newsworthy. This point would well be taken by Malaysians as well who limit their source of news and resulting point of view to that of only 1 or 2 languages.
The Aussie media on Malaysia: Compromised representation or manicured distortion?
I agree with your point that it would be great if more Australian journalists spoke languages other than English while reporting from Malaysia.
However, I’m not sure where you got the idea that the situation is much better for Aust media in Indonesia. Most, if not all, of the Jakarta correspondents at the main Oz media companies do not speak much Indonesian. Because Aust media has bureaus in Jakarta and therefore more staff (including local hires) the quality of reportage is probably better than of Malaysia. But it’s not because of Aust for. corr. language skills in Indonesian.
Pesky foreigners
Place mat for product placement, Andrew? I’m lovin’ it, heh. Pesky piiizzas….!
Jurist Malaya Initiative
Merdeka Day also marks the anniversary of the Federal Constitution. As such, there is some basis to bring up Prof. RB’s initiative. More than half a century later, Malaysians are only beginning to think in terms of a rights discourse based on the constitution. Can this initiative be, at the least, quite timely?
Nothing wrong about returning to old questions, as different generations and contexts may have new light to shed.Can Angry Grey please “bore” us with the details as to how the questions, and the answers, are old … perhaps it is our minds that have dulled with age … not the issues, questions or answers.
The inference raised that that Prof. RB contributes “for his name to be known” is absolutely unnesessary and still in sore need of a dedicated apology alongside a full scale review of his website by Angry Grey.
New Mandala Malaysia (kudos to Greg and co.) is gaining traction as a foci of good conversation on Malaysia’s past and present. The organisers and contributors need to be praised and prodded to do even better. They certainly do not need to be the subjects of unfounded and unnecessary criticism.
Jurist Malaya Initiative
Thank you Angry Grey Man.
I would not interpret that as “The people don’t understand the legal system” but you have a very interesting perspective and more broadly your point that there is no new perspective provided on postings about Malaysia on NM other than negative posts requires a proper discussion.
Could I ask you then to kindly provide a review of Rueban’s website & blog (Jurist Malaya Initiative).
I would be most happy to publish it on New Mandala. I believe your review would set an excellent basis for a discussion and debate about Malaysia, and hopefully some suggestions that could meet your ideas that would constitute new perspectives, and possibly also shed light on the positive aspects of Malaysia.
You can email me at: [email protected]
Thank you very much, and look forward to your review.
Desperately seeking Marylene
thanks for this post Mr Pavin, I felt really sad when I read it. I wish people like you did follow the trail earlier.
Isn’t it sad one day you just go missing and everyone forgets. You and I also
[email protected]/
Left out of reconciliation?
Is Thailand’s reconciliation process moving forward, backward or nowhere? Many important world leaders (and experts on national reconciliation I am led to believe) were invited by Thai reconciliation-focused Yingluck and making their insights now known, including Former Finland president and Nobel winner Martti Ahtisaari, Priscilla Hayner, senior adviser to the Centre for Humanitarian Dialogue, and former British prime minister Tony Blair addressed the forum.
http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/local/367610/reconciliation-cannot-be-hurried-and-must-not-be-guided-by-a-predetermined-end-point-to-serve-the-interests-of-one-side-in-a-dispute-world-leaders-in-the-peace-broking-process-said-in-bangkok
Me thinks that after the speeches, Yingluck will fly out of Bangkok again to somewhere unimportant to negotiate for unimportant deals for unimportant Thailand … and reconciliation ennui sets it and old animosities stirred.
Jurist Malaya Initiative
“…we have never had the benefit of the correct understanding of the ideal of the rule of law or legality as a principle of political legitimacy that shapes our legal and political culture; we have never interpreted our Constitution by reference to a sound understanding that ideal.”
Jurist Malaya Initiative
Hi Angry Grey Man,
Could you kindly provide the text/paragraph/article where you have interpreted that Rueban has said that “The people don’t understand the legal system.”
Thanks very much.
Defending the monarchy
over 60 years of brainwashing – and if then comes the awakening …..
…lulled by this huge propaganda machine – and then suddenly such a successor …….
….. all the people with so much “L O V E” for one ….. and then ? ? ? ? ?