Your article fails to emphasize that the task of figuring out who is covered by any amnesty bill the Thai Parliament enacts will be the entrenched royalist network of politicized judges who have already staged two judicial coups against two elected government since the army coup of 2006.
If amnesty, like beauty,lies in the mind of the beholder,then the royalist judges of Thailand, who occupy a position of judicial primacy under the coup constitution created by the army,may end up deciding who gets amnesty.
How about the Osama Bin Laden mudflaps on transport trucks…. as well as — perhaps even more oddly– those mudflaps featuring Andy Gibb from the Bee Gees.
making some of the same points made by this reviewer, notably that it has a contemporary, nationalistic and pro-military (Tatmadaw) subtext. Nevertheless, it also says that “this is really the only general survey out there.”
“Over the years of conflict though there is a clear rise of increasing political awareness to be seen””
Nick, you are spot on with this, especially this statement. My Wife, who was born in Chiang Dao, Chiang Mai in 1956, never paid any attention at all to Thai politics until 2006, and then in 2008 she really started watching what was going on, and started getting emotional about things in April 2009. That is true about a lot of the people around here. Of course, the Shinawatras are liked cause they are from the Hood, but that is not why they favor them. The TRT did a lot of good up here, villages that got electricity for the first time, living up to his promise about paved roads into each village, it is a large list.
Nick, thanks. Yes, I agree my argument suffers from a degree of bluntness. Sometimes I need to sacrifice the finer points and subtleties to drive home my main point.
It is heartening that there is some complexity to the relationship between the red shirts and Thaksin, which is probably some indicator of individualism and independence. However, it strikes me that the red shirts and Thaksin are using each other for their own quite different ends rather than a common march towards a liberal democracy. Thaksin needs their votes while the red shirts enjoy the dividends of that support – an unholy alliance, as it were. Long may it last.
I’ve said this several times before on this forum, but I really do believe Thaksin still suffers from ‘big man’ syndrome despite the successful march of red shirt aspirations. However, having woken up the peasants he’s going to have a hard time putting them back to bed again. I’m not sure he’s thought that through yet, or even appreciates what that will mean.
There are a few points that i would like to comment on, especially the use of absolutes in your comment here.
While indeed there is the notion of “Thainess” existing, this idea is increasingly challenged, on a broader non-academic base especially by many Red Shirts. While this occurs less on UDD stages than on free Red Shirt stages, in more informal discussions under Red Shirts of all groups the discussion is quite open nowadays. But also the topics in UDD schools get increasingly structural.
Also your rather simple analyses on why the Red Shirts may be drawn to Thaksin does not reflect the complexities of the Thaksin/Red Shirt relationship, which has been quite fluid and has been, and still is, a development process. While initially a significant factor for the support for Thaksin may have been the strongman factor (especially the drug war issue), there were other factors involved as well, such as aspirations by his supporters to economically and politically catch up with more advanced countries, which Thaksin especially through his populist policies symbolized for them.
Over the years of conflict though there is a clear rise of increasing political awareness to be seen, in which the discussion moved more and more into structural issues (separation of institutions, role of the military, etc), which, as we have seen on numerous occasions (such as during the Red Shirts’ anger and disappointment over Thaksin’s speech on May 19, 2012), brought the Red Shirts in conflict with Thaksin and the purely political wing of the Pueah Thai party. While it is quite difficult to describe Thaksin as a paragon of liberal democracy, the Red Shirts’ demands on the system are increasingly resembling what one day may lead to such a system in Thailand.
As to expressions of admiration for Hitler – in Thailand this is much less than for example in India – the biggest dysfunctional yet somewhat miraculously working democracy in the world.
It has been countless times that when in India i was asked where i am from, and answered “Germany”, and had to deal then with the enormous cringe factor when people stated with shining eyes how great Hitler was, and just would not want to listen to my arguments why he was more of the opposite.
It’s an astute observation. Thais do seem to have an inherent insecurity that drives them to embrace stability above all things – even if that stability is fundamentally evil.
A culture of collective ‘Thainess’ trumps individual thought and independent action. Subservience and dependence hold less risk and greater reward. There is only danger in standing alone.
I imagine after a few generations of this it would be quite hard to think otherwise; dangerous even. Consequently, it makes them poor democrats. In this kind of culture there’s more to be gained by taking sides than standing alone, whatever one’s personal reservations might be. The concepts of ‘big, bigger, biggest’ become more important than ‘good, better, best’.
While westerners like to think red shirts embrace Thaksin because he supposedly represents the liberal democratic ideals we’re more used to, it’s more likely because he’s the richest and biggest bully on the block.
Until the education system – indeed the entire system – empowers individualism, independent thought and action from a young age then I fear little will change.
“They all seem to agree with the government doctrine that there are exactly 135 ethnic groups”?
This is true for the people who have no choice but to consume government propaganda and other Burmese centered doctrines/teachings.
There are many ethnic members who knew this hoax and rejected it for so long. Their problem is not being able to access to a wide range of mass media. This might change in future and hope things will headed for a better direction.
Do Rohingjas have any other options?
If someone is pushed to his limit, it is natural that he’ll retaliate. As simple as that. There’s nothing wrong with this.
But wait, many Burmese/Buddhists love to accuse Rohingja of burning their own homes which is ridiculously sad part of their mentality.
I wish there’ll be a tolerant society in Burma which is a distant reality for the time being.
You are actually confirming what I was saying. When the majority of the “ethnic” minority groups from Burma – Kachin, Karen, Chin, Shan,etc. – (majority of minority groups is such an oxymoronic concept!) think about “human rights” it’s not in a broad and universal sense that most people in the West (like me and Bono from U2 lol) understand it – as a universal right applicable to every human being, irrespective of race, religion or ethnicity – but in a much narrower and more selfish way. I find it very hypocritical if “dissidents” and other people from Burma think of organisations like the UNHCR and HRW as “doing a good job” when the “true ethnic IDP’s” are given refugee status (and a plane ticket, preferably to a “nice” Western country, such as Norway, UK, Denmark, Canada, USA, New Zealand, or even Australia but not to China please(LOL)), but the same people would then claim that these organisations are “biased” when Rohingyas get some help. They would even start this Orwellian-rant about “we don’t have Rohingyas in Myanmar, they are not ethnic and so they don’t count” This is not only blatantly discriminatory but also shows a total misinterpretation of the word “ethnic” and “human rights”. Bringing in the “Angst vor Jihad” argument can make matters even worse. (“you might get what you wish for” as they say).
Mind you, I am neither pro- or anti- Rohingya or Kachin or Karen or whatever. I am against classification of humans by race (Nazis and others have tried that unsuccessfully) but I believe in Universal Human Rights and I can’t stand double standards and hypocrisy!
Good article, touching delicate subject, well present on the problem and counter arguments, and short.
The problem seem to be that Thai history is full of strong men, be it lords or men with big guns. But Thai education does not allow actual analysis or criticize of these strong men.
As Professor Thongchai stated, “We don’t know the world, we don’t know our neighbours, we don’t know our region because we are so Thai-centric. We believe in [our] superiority, our being exceptional, our never having been colonized.”
Thanks for tackling such a delicate topic Cod, which, seeing as the issue continues to arise, needs a broader discussion such as that you’ve started.
Cheers,
A.
Khun Cod, I summarise your article into two arguments:
ARGUMENT 1:
(1) Thai people are infatuated with strong leaders (because they can bring stability and economic prosperity).
(2) For Thai people, despite his evil deeds, Hitler is a strong leader.
Therefore,
(3) Thai people are infatuated with Hitler.
ARGUMENT 2:
Thai people’s infatuation with Hitler makes them think it’s okay to put up banners with him among superheroes, or name a fried chicken shop after him, etc. (This one is more like a claim than an argument.)
————————
Let us consider ARGUMENT 1 first. I think (1) is over-generalised. If “Thai people” include university students, then surely strong men like Thanom Kittikachorn and Prapas Jarusathian were not very well-liked by “Thai people”. If “Thai people” include the Bangkok middle class, then surely strong men like Suchinda Kraprayoon were not well-liked either.
So being a strong leader alone, it seems, is not enough to make Thai people “infatuated” with him. It falls on you then, Khun Cod, to tell us, firstly, what other qualities, apart from strength, a leader must have in order to make Thai people “infatuated” with him; and secondly, why you think Hitler has these qualities.
I doubt (2) too. First of all, I doubt that Thai people consider Hitler’s positive impact on the German economy when they think of Hitler. To me, most Thai people who know Hitler seem to know him in the same way as they know Che Guevara – i.e. as a symbol whose meaning is unclear. Secondly, it’s hard to imagine that people would be “infatuated” with a leader just because he’s strong, despite knowing that he killed over 10 million people. There might be some such people (just as there are insane people), but I doubt there are very many of them.
Now let us consider ARGUMENT 2. Even if we grant that Thai people in general are really “infatuated” with Hitler, I don’t think the likeness of Hitler in the “superheroes” banner was painted out of infatuation. Neither do I think that the Hitler-themed chicken shop was a result of infatuation with Hitler. I think these were done by people who know Hitler through pop culture, and not through history books. I doubt that half the Thai people who wear Che Guevara t-shirts have any strong opinion about him. The same goes for Thai people who do Nazi salute or paint Hitler among cartoon characters.
we don,t have term “rohingya” – Indian intelligence agencies fear that the Bangladesh-Myanmar border may emerge as a new theatre of jihad in the not-too-distant future, said The Times of India newspaper on Sunday. http://www.thefinancialexpress-bd.com/index.php?ref=MjBfMDdfMjJfMTNfMV8zXzE3NzMzNg%3D%3D
also 2 Rohingya leaders go shopping for terror in Indonesia by Jakarta Post
Never has a writer been better named when it comes to philosophising…
And he seems to have missed out that Thailand, to all intents and purposes, declared war on the Allies in WW2 and that it was the Soviet Union which ultimately defeated the Nazis.
But what’s a little bit of cod-historicising in an article written by someone who calls themselves Cod but doesn’t seem to understand the basics of constructing an argument.
Facebook 
Twitter 
Soundcloud 
Youtube 
Rss
Thailand’s international human rights obligations in question
Your article fails to emphasize that the task of figuring out who is covered by any amnesty bill the Thai Parliament enacts will be the entrenched royalist network of politicized judges who have already staged two judicial coups against two elected government since the army coup of 2006.
If amnesty, like beauty,lies in the mind of the beholder,then the royalist judges of Thailand, who occupy a position of judicial primacy under the coup constitution created by the army,may end up deciding who gets amnesty.
Hitler again
How about the Osama Bin Laden mudflaps on transport trucks…. as well as — perhaps even more oddly– those mudflaps featuring Andy Gibb from the Bee Gees.
Review of History of Myanmar Since Ancient Times
An interesting review of the same book here:
http://alwestmeditates.blogspot.com/2012/12/review-history-of-myanmar-since-ancient.html
making some of the same points made by this reviewer, notably that it has a contemporary, nationalistic and pro-military (Tatmadaw) subtext. Nevertheless, it also says that “this is really the only general survey out there.”
Hitler again
“he brought stability and economic stability…”
Interview with Myanmar labour activist Su Su Nway
Regarding some of the issues raised in this interview, the following may be of furthur interest:
On Labour Organisations in Myanmar,” Global Labour Column
Thailand’s international human rights obligations in question
To which Thaksin’s sister Yingluck could be tempted to avow: “The United Nations is not my father either.”
Hitler again
“Over the years of conflict though there is a clear rise of increasing political awareness to be seen””
Nick, you are spot on with this, especially this statement. My Wife, who was born in Chiang Dao, Chiang Mai in 1956, never paid any attention at all to Thai politics until 2006, and then in 2008 she really started watching what was going on, and started getting emotional about things in April 2009. That is true about a lot of the people around here. Of course, the Shinawatras are liked cause they are from the Hood, but that is not why they favor them. The TRT did a lot of good up here, villages that got electricity for the first time, living up to his promise about paved roads into each village, it is a large list.
Hitler again
Nick, thanks. Yes, I agree my argument suffers from a degree of bluntness. Sometimes I need to sacrifice the finer points and subtleties to drive home my main point.
It is heartening that there is some complexity to the relationship between the red shirts and Thaksin, which is probably some indicator of individualism and independence. However, it strikes me that the red shirts and Thaksin are using each other for their own quite different ends rather than a common march towards a liberal democracy. Thaksin needs their votes while the red shirts enjoy the dividends of that support – an unholy alliance, as it were. Long may it last.
I’ve said this several times before on this forum, but I really do believe Thaksin still suffers from ‘big man’ syndrome despite the successful march of red shirt aspirations. However, having woken up the peasants he’s going to have a hard time putting them back to bed again. I’m not sure he’s thought that through yet, or even appreciates what that will mean.
Hitler again
There are a few points that i would like to comment on, especially the use of absolutes in your comment here.
While indeed there is the notion of “Thainess” existing, this idea is increasingly challenged, on a broader non-academic base especially by many Red Shirts. While this occurs less on UDD stages than on free Red Shirt stages, in more informal discussions under Red Shirts of all groups the discussion is quite open nowadays. But also the topics in UDD schools get increasingly structural.
Also your rather simple analyses on why the Red Shirts may be drawn to Thaksin does not reflect the complexities of the Thaksin/Red Shirt relationship, which has been quite fluid and has been, and still is, a development process. While initially a significant factor for the support for Thaksin may have been the strongman factor (especially the drug war issue), there were other factors involved as well, such as aspirations by his supporters to economically and politically catch up with more advanced countries, which Thaksin especially through his populist policies symbolized for them.
Over the years of conflict though there is a clear rise of increasing political awareness to be seen, in which the discussion moved more and more into structural issues (separation of institutions, role of the military, etc), which, as we have seen on numerous occasions (such as during the Red Shirts’ anger and disappointment over Thaksin’s speech on May 19, 2012), brought the Red Shirts in conflict with Thaksin and the purely political wing of the Pueah Thai party. While it is quite difficult to describe Thaksin as a paragon of liberal democracy, the Red Shirts’ demands on the system are increasingly resembling what one day may lead to such a system in Thailand.
As to expressions of admiration for Hitler – in Thailand this is much less than for example in India – the biggest dysfunctional yet somewhat miraculously working democracy in the world.
It has been countless times that when in India i was asked where i am from, and answered “Germany”, and had to deal then with the enormous cringe factor when people stated with shining eyes how great Hitler was, and just would not want to listen to my arguments why he was more of the opposite.
Malaysian PM should resign, says expert
Really, that’s the lame reason you are parroting the “Chinese Tsunami” crap??
Look into the mirror every now and then.. there is at least a 6 inch space between your left and right ears. The brain usually goes there.. use it.
Hitler again
It’s an astute observation. Thais do seem to have an inherent insecurity that drives them to embrace stability above all things – even if that stability is fundamentally evil.
A culture of collective ‘Thainess’ trumps individual thought and independent action. Subservience and dependence hold less risk and greater reward. There is only danger in standing alone.
I imagine after a few generations of this it would be quite hard to think otherwise; dangerous even. Consequently, it makes them poor democrats. In this kind of culture there’s more to be gained by taking sides than standing alone, whatever one’s personal reservations might be. The concepts of ‘big, bigger, biggest’ become more important than ‘good, better, best’.
While westerners like to think red shirts embrace Thaksin because he supposedly represents the liberal democratic ideals we’re more used to, it’s more likely because he’s the richest and biggest bully on the block.
Until the education system – indeed the entire system – empowers individualism, independent thought and action from a young age then I fear little will change.
Protesters greet Thein Sein in Britain
“They all seem to agree with the government doctrine that there are exactly 135 ethnic groups”?
This is true for the people who have no choice but to consume government propaganda and other Burmese centered doctrines/teachings.
There are many ethnic members who knew this hoax and rejected it for so long. Their problem is not being able to access to a wide range of mass media. This might change in future and hope things will headed for a better direction.
Protesters greet Thein Sein in Britain
Do Rohingjas have any other options?
If someone is pushed to his limit, it is natural that he’ll retaliate. As simple as that. There’s nothing wrong with this.
But wait, many Burmese/Buddhists love to accuse Rohingja of burning their own homes which is ridiculously sad part of their mentality.
I wish there’ll be a tolerant society in Burma which is a distant reality for the time being.
Protesters greet Thein Sein in Britain
You are actually confirming what I was saying. When the majority of the “ethnic” minority groups from Burma – Kachin, Karen, Chin, Shan,etc. – (majority of minority groups is such an oxymoronic concept!) think about “human rights” it’s not in a broad and universal sense that most people in the West (like me and Bono from U2 lol) understand it – as a universal right applicable to every human being, irrespective of race, religion or ethnicity – but in a much narrower and more selfish way. I find it very hypocritical if “dissidents” and other people from Burma think of organisations like the UNHCR and HRW as “doing a good job” when the “true ethnic IDP’s” are given refugee status (and a plane ticket, preferably to a “nice” Western country, such as Norway, UK, Denmark, Canada, USA, New Zealand, or even Australia but not to China please(LOL)), but the same people would then claim that these organisations are “biased” when Rohingyas get some help. They would even start this Orwellian-rant about “we don’t have Rohingyas in Myanmar, they are not ethnic and so they don’t count” This is not only blatantly discriminatory but also shows a total misinterpretation of the word “ethnic” and “human rights”. Bringing in the “Angst vor Jihad” argument can make matters even worse. (“you might get what you wish for” as they say).
Mind you, I am neither pro- or anti- Rohingya or Kachin or Karen or whatever. I am against classification of humans by race (Nazis and others have tried that unsuccessfully) but I believe in Universal Human Rights and I can’t stand double standards and hypocrisy!
Hitler again
Good article, touching delicate subject, well present on the problem and counter arguments, and short.
The problem seem to be that Thai history is full of strong men, be it lords or men with big guns. But Thai education does not allow actual analysis or criticize of these strong men.
As Professor Thongchai stated, “We don’t know the world, we don’t know our neighbours, we don’t know our region because we are so Thai-centric. We believe in [our] superiority, our being exceptional, our never having been colonized.”
Hitler again
Thanks for tackling such a delicate topic Cod, which, seeing as the issue continues to arise, needs a broader discussion such as that you’ve started.
Cheers,
A.
Hitler again
Khun Cod, I summarise your article into two arguments:
ARGUMENT 1:
(1) Thai people are infatuated with strong leaders (because they can bring stability and economic prosperity).
(2) For Thai people, despite his evil deeds, Hitler is a strong leader.
Therefore,
(3) Thai people are infatuated with Hitler.
ARGUMENT 2:
Thai people’s infatuation with Hitler makes them think it’s okay to put up banners with him among superheroes, or name a fried chicken shop after him, etc. (This one is more like a claim than an argument.)
————————
Let us consider ARGUMENT 1 first. I think (1) is over-generalised. If “Thai people” include university students, then surely strong men like Thanom Kittikachorn and Prapas Jarusathian were not very well-liked by “Thai people”. If “Thai people” include the Bangkok middle class, then surely strong men like Suchinda Kraprayoon were not well-liked either.
So being a strong leader alone, it seems, is not enough to make Thai people “infatuated” with him. It falls on you then, Khun Cod, to tell us, firstly, what other qualities, apart from strength, a leader must have in order to make Thai people “infatuated” with him; and secondly, why you think Hitler has these qualities.
I doubt (2) too. First of all, I doubt that Thai people consider Hitler’s positive impact on the German economy when they think of Hitler. To me, most Thai people who know Hitler seem to know him in the same way as they know Che Guevara – i.e. as a symbol whose meaning is unclear. Secondly, it’s hard to imagine that people would be “infatuated” with a leader just because he’s strong, despite knowing that he killed over 10 million people. There might be some such people (just as there are insane people), but I doubt there are very many of them.
Now let us consider ARGUMENT 2. Even if we grant that Thai people in general are really “infatuated” with Hitler, I don’t think the likeness of Hitler in the “superheroes” banner was painted out of infatuation. Neither do I think that the Hitler-themed chicken shop was a result of infatuation with Hitler. I think these were done by people who know Hitler through pop culture, and not through history books. I doubt that half the Thai people who wear Che Guevara t-shirts have any strong opinion about him. The same goes for Thai people who do Nazi salute or paint Hitler among cartoon characters.
Protesters greet Thein Sein in Britain
we don,t have term “rohingya” – Indian intelligence agencies fear that the Bangladesh-Myanmar border may emerge as a new theatre of jihad in the not-too-distant future, said The Times of India newspaper on Sunday.
http://www.thefinancialexpress-bd.com/index.php?ref=MjBfMDdfMjJfMTNfMV8zXzE3NzMzNg%3D%3D
also 2 Rohingya leaders go shopping for terror in Indonesia by Jakarta Post
Hitler again
Oh no it’s Cod again…
Never has a writer been better named when it comes to philosophising…
And he seems to have missed out that Thailand, to all intents and purposes, declared war on the Allies in WW2 and that it was the Soviet Union which ultimately defeated the Nazis.
But what’s a little bit of cod-historicising in an article written by someone who calls themselves Cod but doesn’t seem to understand the basics of constructing an argument.
Malaysian PM should resign, says expert
IF NAJIB STEPS DOWN THEN MUHIDIN WILL BE PM. IT WILL BE WORSE.