Thanks Stephen for this timely KHRG but NOT KNU/KNLA point of view
This illustrate the tip of the iceberg of existing diversity among among Kayin.
From CBOs that protect women and children from exploitation to hospitals and clinics that help everyone, from doctors to social workers and volunteers that are Kayin that toil to give the citizenry hope illustrate a vision of “A Common Destiny” among majority of Kayin that the west ignore lest encourage.
Instead focusing incessantly only on ‘for violence only’ KNU/KNLA.
Yes, we can chalk up the borders of the modern Burmese state to colonial machination and consolidation. That is arguably the biggest reason for modern Burma’s ethnic strife, as it was never really united as a consolidated polity as such before the British showed up.
But when does blaming colonialism get old? There’s no doubt that building a nation-state from disparate parts is challenging in the Burmese context, but the fact that it never really happened is a function of ineptitude and pathological leadership.
While this is an imperfect comparison, India – with which Burma shares a direct colonial history – was able to craft a unified polity and national identity based on regional difference and federalism that has managed to be pretty inclusive (albeit not without its problems). Burma started off on this track but got derailed pretty quickly.
The Panglong conference wasn’t particularly successful; perhaps the its most glaring failure was the absence of the Karen, who weren’t willing to trust Aung San’s entreaties towards them. After he and his multiethnic (including Rohingya people!) cabinet were killed (by forces that saw federalism as leading to the end of the modern Burmese state), whatever trust was beginning to emerge between the Karen and the Burman-dominated heartland was undone.
This was compounded by U Nu’s ineptitude (naming Buddhism the state religion was a fantastic way of alienating a good 40% of the population) and Ne Win’s pathological obsession with enforcing a warped sense of national unity at the barrel of a gun.
But the respect shown for Aung San Suu Kyi by ethnic people pretty well across the board (at least, until recently) shows that with the right leadership, a lot of these issues can be sorted out. Burma’s in massive need of a second Panglong conference.
While colonial divide-and-conquer is obviously the source of many of these problems, to blame colonialism entirely while overlooking the massive mismanagement of the past 65-odd years is disingenuous and inaccurate.
Thanks for the sffirmation. Just a slight addition to Judson, a true exaple of christianity for all Myanmar.
He worked hard sacrificiallly to introduced Christianity to the Kayin as well as others, Higher Education and numerous saintly philantrophy.
Accordinly true to his faith NEVER justifying any killing especially brothers against brothers.
Those Kayin brothers that uphold the true christian faith,continuslly provide vital help to fellow brothers victims of Nargis as well as establishing staffed hospitals and clinics without which this government will be up the creek in providing healthcate are ongoing testaments to his loving effort.
KNLA’s claimed to chritianity at best justify HR groups and similar in the west claiming to be ‘christian’, white washing equally atrocious KNLA as well as the west hypocrisy, and at the worst simply unnecessarily prolong this epic tragedy.
Plan B is right about British Colonialist wedge between Burmese and Karen.
During the First Anglo-Burmese War (1824-1826) the English Political Officers attached to British Invading Army were planning to use Mon locals in the Lower Burma against Burmese from Upper Burma.
But their plan didn’t materialize as Mon the Buddhists were not really willing to go against Burmese Buddhists even though Burmese had conquered the Mons well before the British came.
Fortunately for the British they discovered the Kayins, then the Animists, and used them effectively against Burmese.
Later the American Baptist missionaries such as Judson converted them to Christianity. Once they became Christians British recruited them into British Burma army and the rest is the history of Divide and Rule and never-ending civil war as we now know it.
We can blame it all on the English Colonialists and the American Christian missionaries.
I have not said elections are not important. Answer this question: what us more important for democracy. That the president of the USA is elected by a fair and free election or that he follows the constitution once he is elected?
You only focus on one aspect of democracy, it’s just a totemic ritual for you, what you defending us not democracy.
If you think about it, holding politicians accountable and ensuring they adhere to the laws even if other groups do nit will make it very difficult to non elected power blocs to use their power against the wishes of the electorate. When politicians play games, it’s the people who lose, not the politicians.
Which country colonize Myanmar, that started this NEVER existed Kayin Bamar animosity?
Did the West,raise any objection at any international forums on unimaginable blood letting, just b/t Kayin and Bamar following Myanmar independence?
Did the West let ‘enigmatic’ Ne Win be Ne Win despite his notorious and unspeakably cruel 4 cuts strategy on Pegu Yoma and other Campaigns that put KNLA Bamar to this quagmire that has endured?
Did the same party that has hegemony over world politic and economic use the influence to implement ‘the useless careless policy’ that maintain if not strengthen the ongoing intransigence for nearly 3 decades?
Yes the West is responsible by volition, to what degree only history will decide.
Will the West knowing the solution to bitter struggle among KNOWN historical brothers, is neither more divisiveness nor misguided sympathy for one side through HR organizations, yet absolutely neglecting to promote “a common Destiny” to eventual reconciliation makes the West guilty by omission as well?
ALL Your posts at New Mandala consistently and maintain a glaring “misguided sympathy to outright hatred” towards the Kayin and Bamar respectively.
It is indeed an irony that Your pretension to caring about justice for the Kayin or is it KNLA, do not go beyond killing Bamar that are brothers in every sense historically.
Plan B chimes in again with another careless, useless post. Nowhere does he offer an alternative viewpoint. Just attack, attack, attack.
Oh, and blame it on the West.
[…] Amanda Whiting is Associate Director, Malaysia, at the Asian Law Centre, the Melbourne Law School, University of Melbourne. Dr Whiting presented her research at this year’s Malaysia and Singapore Update at the Australian National University. Video footage of the event is available here. […]
There does seem to be a portion of the armed groups desperate to sell out their people for a cut from, Tavoy, Moulmine -ports, trade routes, SEZ’s. Etc.
Money and power are hard to resist for mere mortals.
Beside Great Leader Aung San Suu Kyi (moralist apparently)has shown that the principles are nothing. She gets lauded for (and only because of) having NO principles whatsoever. Even called “Smart”. Like Clinton, Suzanne Nossal, Joseph Nye’s “smart power”. Smart people. Just rotten.
They (leaders of the armed groups)will lie to themselves to take various deals. Then like Kachin, one day the hungover starts.
“…an increase in business, development, natural resource extraction, accompanied by a continued military presence. KHRG believes that the perpetration of abuses is exacerbated, and villagers’ options to respond effectively limited, both by the lack of opportunities for genuine local input and a dearth of information-sharing concerning new developments.”
If you seriously want to know, there is the answer by Stephen.
The Karen area is no different in the “change” from the other areas of the country including western Arakan and Latpadaung except the degree of sufferings and displacement are millions times worse in Karen.
The perpetrators are the Bamar Sit-tut. Always have been, always will be. That Bamar Sit-tut is now feted and praised and sucked up by the international communities ( as Gillard did just this week) who until just a short while ago for twenty years had been treating the Sit-tut with utmost contempt it deserved and still does.
By simple act of putting on a Gaung-paung and being vouched for by Aung San Suu Kyi who is simple product of carefully cultivated image styling just like in Mandela before her, every thing the Sit-tut does is good, wonderful and admirable now, all of a sudden.
Even the most horrid killing and displacing of the Rohingya or whatever they are called is not condemned by any one.
In this buoyant state of elation, the Sit-tut has no reason to change their ways but plenty reasons to push even harder.
Yes. Cash awash,there are people they can buy out in other armed groups around the country now. The armed groups are not there by democracy and are definitely not representative of the people whose fate the armed gangs (Sit-tut and themselves) are going to decide. Yet they now are approved and applauded by the international communities who WILL benefit from those deals.
Norwegians with their baby face are there just to make sure things are done in right order. Their deeds in Sri Lanka have been surely for no human to be proud of and are still going on.
Kachins had been razing the forests and digging up the gems and jade and flogging to the Chinese in bargain price. They, them and the Sit-tut, were eating of each other’s hands days before they started to kill each others resulting in thousands and thousands of dead bodies. Sit-tut, far delayed in their Pipe laying enterprise for the Chinese is now trying to annihilate them once for all, in their dreams.
Yes, there WILL be “peace”. Yes, the people with guns, both sides together, will decide where now totally defenceless Karen can live and work and move around or not according to Norwegian map to fit in with the needs of international business and resource requirement.
And yes, there will be time they simply start to kill each other again like in Kachin. Simple matter of time.
Greed and dishonesty simply cannot reign the world forever for mathematical reason. One does run out of suckers.
The trick for the international communities is to reap quick before it happens.
There have been daily attacks by the Tatmadaw against the KNLA, and they’re escalating.
While the KNLA is bending over backwards to adhere to the ceasefire, the tatmadaw has been reinforcing its garrisons,cutting roads through the jungle in order to move up heavy equipment, and conducting reconnaissance in force against KNLA positions.
On this subject, the Karen Human Rights Group released a commentary yesterday, which may be of interest to NM readers:
Steps towards peace: Local participation in the Karen ceasefire process
This commentary considers Karen villagers’ perspectives on impacts of the ceasefire between the Karen National Union (KNU) and the Government of the Union of Myanmar. In light of their concerns, this commentary makes workable recommendations about what the most effective next steps could be for negotiating parties and for stakeholders in the ceasefire process. Building on KHRG’s previous analysis in Safeguarding human rights in a post-ceasefire in eastern Burma, published in January 2012, this commentary brings to light new evidence of villagers’ perspectives. Documentation received since the ceasefire reveals some positive changes, but also raises concerns about ongoing human rights abuses in the post-conflict environment, as a result of ingrained abusive practices and a lack of accountability, particularly in areas where there has been an increase in business, development, natural resource extraction, accompanied by a continued military presence. KHRG believes that the perpetration of abuses is exacerbated, and villagers’ options to respond effectively limited, both by the lack of opportunities for genuine local input and a dearth of information-sharing concerning new developments. Analysis for this commentary was prepared based on a collaborative workshop held between all staff members at KHRG’s administrative office, as well as field documentation and oral testimony received since January 2012 from villagers in all KHRG research areas, which incorporate all or parts of Kayin and Mon States, and Bago and Tanintharyi Regions
There are tribal groups and ethnic groups that reside along trans border regions surrounding Myanmar. Tribal groups that are still not yet classified/documented/recognized exist even b/f there was Rohingyas.
It is only when the respective government of areas that they traverse requiring them to have documentation for any purpose, usually residency status, that these group are subjected to documentation.
Rhohingyas is a recognized resident Kala entity in western Myanmar. Despite BBC false claim of Western Myanmar as Rohingyas area most are without residency status.
Their advocates such as Naw San Lwin must not insist on claim beyond wanting to be part of resident or related status to citizenry of Myanmar.
Overreaching for a separate special status because of lawlessness and corruption suffered by all Myanmar Citizenry under the military regime will certainly invite back lash.
This present strife b/t Yakhine and Kala with the minority getting the short end again is mainly due to poverty induced scarce opportunity, clashing two cultures based on race and religion.
The other contributing factors that make the above even worst are
1)More Kala seeking better life from Bangladesh coming across.
2)Long existing chauvinism against each other due to extreme cultural difference. Promoted by the Bamar military government as strategy to divide and conquer.
3)General lack of any Rule of Laws, replaced by Rule by Force
with ‘near intractable corruption’ everywhere for decades.
U Thein Sein is correct describing “Tolerance”.
What he does to restore RoL eventually will be to his credit.
One need no further evidence of tolerance, than Yangon and other Major cities with centers ondicating thriving Kala Muslim or Hindus, Christians and others religions.
The simple difference being comparatively enough to go around for every groups be it Kala, Bamar , Chinese etc.
at those regions.
Believe it or not the undocumented Chinese are doing the best every where despite their residency status, creating simmering unrest that will need future input at New Mandala.
Hastening a return to RoL must be the West priority in order to avoid perpetual looming human tragedy.
As of now the ongoing events have set back the sorely need RoL in Western Myanmar with the minority Kala Muslim getting the short end, again.
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Will Karen State go to war again?
Thanks Stephen for this timely KHRG but NOT KNU/KNLA point of view
This illustrate the tip of the iceberg of existing diversity among among Kayin.
From CBOs that protect women and children from exploitation to hospitals and clinics that help everyone, from doctors to social workers and volunteers that are Kayin that toil to give the citizenry hope illustrate a vision of “A Common Destiny” among majority of Kayin that the west ignore lest encourage.
Instead focusing incessantly only on ‘for violence only’ KNU/KNLA.
Will Karen State go to war again?
Yes, we can chalk up the borders of the modern Burmese state to colonial machination and consolidation. That is arguably the biggest reason for modern Burma’s ethnic strife, as it was never really united as a consolidated polity as such before the British showed up.
But when does blaming colonialism get old? There’s no doubt that building a nation-state from disparate parts is challenging in the Burmese context, but the fact that it never really happened is a function of ineptitude and pathological leadership.
While this is an imperfect comparison, India – with which Burma shares a direct colonial history – was able to craft a unified polity and national identity based on regional difference and federalism that has managed to be pretty inclusive (albeit not without its problems). Burma started off on this track but got derailed pretty quickly.
The Panglong conference wasn’t particularly successful; perhaps the its most glaring failure was the absence of the Karen, who weren’t willing to trust Aung San’s entreaties towards them. After he and his multiethnic (including Rohingya people!) cabinet were killed (by forces that saw federalism as leading to the end of the modern Burmese state), whatever trust was beginning to emerge between the Karen and the Burman-dominated heartland was undone.
This was compounded by U Nu’s ineptitude (naming Buddhism the state religion was a fantastic way of alienating a good 40% of the population) and Ne Win’s pathological obsession with enforcing a warped sense of national unity at the barrel of a gun.
But the respect shown for Aung San Suu Kyi by ethnic people pretty well across the board (at least, until recently) shows that with the right leadership, a lot of these issues can be sorted out. Burma’s in massive need of a second Panglong conference.
While colonial divide-and-conquer is obviously the source of many of these problems, to blame colonialism entirely while overlooking the massive mismanagement of the past 65-odd years is disingenuous and inaccurate.
Will Karen State go to war again?
Ko Aung Moe
Thanks for the sffirmation. Just a slight addition to Judson, a true exaple of christianity for all Myanmar.
He worked hard sacrificiallly to introduced Christianity to the Kayin as well as others, Higher Education and numerous saintly philantrophy.
Accordinly true to his faith NEVER justifying any killing especially brothers against brothers.
Those Kayin brothers that uphold the true christian faith,continuslly provide vital help to fellow brothers victims of Nargis as well as establishing staffed hospitals and clinics without which this government will be up the creek in providing healthcate are ongoing testaments to his loving effort.
KNLA’s claimed to chritianity at best justify HR groups and similar in the west claiming to be ‘christian’, white washing equally atrocious KNLA as well as the west hypocrisy, and at the worst simply unnecessarily prolong this epic tragedy.
Seeking practical benefits from national reconciliation in Myanmar
For a new article on the Burmese diaspora, see
Burma in Diaspora: A Preliminary Research Note on the Politics of Burmese Diasporic Communities in Asia
Renaud Egreteau
Free download from http://hup.sub.uni-hamburg.de/giga/jsaa
Will be some time before Burmese migrant workers will have the practical benefit of being able to return home from Thailand…
Serhat ├Ьnaldi on kingship in Thailand and Spain
For a new article version, see
Modern Monarchs and Democracy: Thailand’s Bhumibol Adulyadej and Juan Carlos of Spain
Serhat ├Ьnaldi
Free download at http://hup.sub.uni-hamburg.de/giga/jsaa
Analysis of Myanmar’s NLD landslide
Here is a new article in elections and civil society in Burma.
Democratic Dawn? Civil Society and Elections in Myanmar 2010–2012
Michael Lidauer
Free download at http://hup.sub.uni-hamburg.de/giga/jsaa
Will Karen State go to war again?
Plan B is right about British Colonialist wedge between Burmese and Karen.
During the First Anglo-Burmese War (1824-1826) the English Political Officers attached to British Invading Army were planning to use Mon locals in the Lower Burma against Burmese from Upper Burma.
But their plan didn’t materialize as Mon the Buddhists were not really willing to go against Burmese Buddhists even though Burmese had conquered the Mons well before the British came.
Fortunately for the British they discovered the Kayins, then the Animists, and used them effectively against Burmese.
Later the American Baptist missionaries such as Judson converted them to Christianity. Once they became Christians British recruited them into British Burma army and the rest is the history of Divide and Rule and never-ending civil war as we now know it.
We can blame it all on the English Colonialists and the American Christian missionaries.
Thaksin and the palace
I have not said elections are not important. Answer this question: what us more important for democracy. That the president of the USA is elected by a fair and free election or that he follows the constitution once he is elected?
You only focus on one aspect of democracy, it’s just a totemic ritual for you, what you defending us not democracy.
If you think about it, holding politicians accountable and ensuring they adhere to the laws even if other groups do nit will make it very difficult to non elected power blocs to use their power against the wishes of the electorate. When politicians play games, it’s the people who lose, not the politicians.
Will Karen State go to war again?
” Oh, and blame it on the West.”
You decide.
Which country colonize Myanmar, that started this NEVER existed Kayin Bamar animosity?
Did the West,raise any objection at any international forums on unimaginable blood letting, just b/t Kayin and Bamar following Myanmar independence?
Did the West let ‘enigmatic’ Ne Win be Ne Win despite his notorious and unspeakably cruel 4 cuts strategy on Pegu Yoma and other Campaigns that put KNLA Bamar to this quagmire that has endured?
Did the same party that has hegemony over world politic and economic use the influence to implement ‘the useless careless policy’ that maintain if not strengthen the ongoing intransigence for nearly 3 decades?
Yes the West is responsible by volition, to what degree only history will decide.
Will the West knowing the solution to bitter struggle among KNOWN historical brothers, is neither more divisiveness nor misguided sympathy for one side through HR organizations, yet absolutely neglecting to promote “a common Destiny” to eventual reconciliation makes the West guilty by omission as well?
Will Karen State go to war again?
Charles F
http://www.newmandala.org/2012/11/05/civil-war-and-naypyidaw/
ALL Your posts at New Mandala consistently and maintain a glaring “misguided sympathy to outright hatred” towards the Kayin and Bamar respectively.
It is indeed an irony that Your pretension to caring about justice for the Kayin or is it KNLA, do not go beyond killing Bamar that are brothers in every sense historically.
Will Karen State go to war again?
Plan B chimes in again with another careless, useless post. Nowhere does he offer an alternative viewpoint. Just attack, attack, attack.
Oh, and blame it on the West.
Will Karen State go to war again?
“While the KNLA is bending over backwards to adhere to the ceasefire”
It is this kind of misguided if not outright, fraudulent claim that kept, evil Tamadaw vs saintly KNLA THE divisiveness among brothers alive.
There are already enough justifiable animosities far more worst than this that most westerners are oblivious of.
Taking a microcosm of an epic tragedy to justify one’s view only make one a fool unfortunately at the expense of Myanmar.
Fraudulent?
Just reread Alex Bookbinder article again.
Protect Siam: What’s new?
Ha!!..they are reformed CPT..oops!..I mean royalist CPT!
Malaysia and Singapore Update 2012 videos
[…] Amanda Whiting is Associate Director, Malaysia, at the Asian Law Centre, the Melbourne Law School, University of Melbourne. Dr Whiting presented her research at this year’s Malaysia and Singapore Update at the Australian National University. Video footage of the event is available here. […]
Will Karen State go to war again?
There does seem to be a portion of the armed groups desperate to sell out their people for a cut from, Tavoy, Moulmine -ports, trade routes, SEZ’s. Etc.
Money and power are hard to resist for mere mortals.
Beside Great Leader Aung San Suu Kyi (moralist apparently)has shown that the principles are nothing. She gets lauded for (and only because of) having NO principles whatsoever. Even called “Smart”. Like Clinton, Suzanne Nossal, Joseph Nye’s “smart power”. Smart people. Just rotten.
They (leaders of the armed groups)will lie to themselves to take various deals. Then like Kachin, one day the hungover starts.
Will Karen State go to war again?
Nich,
“…an increase in business, development, natural resource extraction, accompanied by a continued military presence. KHRG believes that the perpetration of abuses is exacerbated, and villagers’ options to respond effectively limited, both by the lack of opportunities for genuine local input and a dearth of information-sharing concerning new developments.”
If you seriously want to know, there is the answer by Stephen.
The Karen area is no different in the “change” from the other areas of the country including western Arakan and Latpadaung except the degree of sufferings and displacement are millions times worse in Karen.
The perpetrators are the Bamar Sit-tut. Always have been, always will be. That Bamar Sit-tut is now feted and praised and sucked up by the international communities ( as Gillard did just this week) who until just a short while ago for twenty years had been treating the Sit-tut with utmost contempt it deserved and still does.
By simple act of putting on a Gaung-paung and being vouched for by Aung San Suu Kyi who is simple product of carefully cultivated image styling just like in Mandela before her, every thing the Sit-tut does is good, wonderful and admirable now, all of a sudden.
Even the most horrid killing and displacing of the Rohingya or whatever they are called is not condemned by any one.
In this buoyant state of elation, the Sit-tut has no reason to change their ways but plenty reasons to push even harder.
Yes. Cash awash,there are people they can buy out in other armed groups around the country now. The armed groups are not there by democracy and are definitely not representative of the people whose fate the armed gangs (Sit-tut and themselves) are going to decide. Yet they now are approved and applauded by the international communities who WILL benefit from those deals.
Norwegians with their baby face are there just to make sure things are done in right order. Their deeds in Sri Lanka have been surely for no human to be proud of and are still going on.
Kachins had been razing the forests and digging up the gems and jade and flogging to the Chinese in bargain price. They, them and the Sit-tut, were eating of each other’s hands days before they started to kill each others resulting in thousands and thousands of dead bodies. Sit-tut, far delayed in their Pipe laying enterprise for the Chinese is now trying to annihilate them once for all, in their dreams.
Yes, there WILL be “peace”. Yes, the people with guns, both sides together, will decide where now totally defenceless Karen can live and work and move around or not according to Norwegian map to fit in with the needs of international business and resource requirement.
And yes, there will be time they simply start to kill each other again like in Kachin. Simple matter of time.
Greed and dishonesty simply cannot reign the world forever for mathematical reason. One does run out of suckers.
The trick for the international communities is to reap quick before it happens.
Will Karen State go to war again?
“Will Karen State go to war again?”
Does the bear shit in the woods?
There have been daily attacks by the Tatmadaw against the KNLA, and they’re escalating.
While the KNLA is bending over backwards to adhere to the ceasefire, the tatmadaw has been reinforcing its garrisons,cutting roads through the jungle in order to move up heavy equipment, and conducting reconnaissance in force against KNLA positions.
A renewal of fighting? Not ‘if’, but ‘when’.
Will Karen State go to war again?
Stephen, many thanks for this.
Will Karen State go to war again?
On this subject, the Karen Human Rights Group released a commentary yesterday, which may be of interest to NM readers:
Steps towards peace: Local participation in the Karen ceasefire process
Making Rohingya statelessness
There are tribal groups and ethnic groups that reside along trans border regions surrounding Myanmar. Tribal groups that are still not yet classified/documented/recognized exist even b/f there was Rohingyas.
It is only when the respective government of areas that they traverse requiring them to have documentation for any purpose, usually residency status, that these group are subjected to documentation.
Rhohingyas is a recognized resident Kala entity in western Myanmar. Despite BBC false claim of Western Myanmar as Rohingyas area most are without residency status.
Their advocates such as Naw San Lwin must not insist on claim beyond wanting to be part of resident or related status to citizenry of Myanmar.
Overreaching for a separate special status because of lawlessness and corruption suffered by all Myanmar Citizenry under the military regime will certainly invite back lash.
This present strife b/t Yakhine and Kala with the minority getting the short end again is mainly due to poverty induced scarce opportunity, clashing two cultures based on race and religion.
The other contributing factors that make the above even worst are
1)More Kala seeking better life from Bangladesh coming across.
2)Long existing chauvinism against each other due to extreme cultural difference. Promoted by the Bamar military government as strategy to divide and conquer.
3)General lack of any Rule of Laws, replaced by Rule by Force
with ‘near intractable corruption’ everywhere for decades.
U Thein Sein is correct describing “Tolerance”.
What he does to restore RoL eventually will be to his credit.
One need no further evidence of tolerance, than Yangon and other Major cities with centers ondicating thriving Kala Muslim or Hindus, Christians and others religions.
The simple difference being comparatively enough to go around for every groups be it Kala, Bamar , Chinese etc.
at those regions.
Believe it or not the undocumented Chinese are doing the best every where despite their residency status, creating simmering unrest that will need future input at New Mandala.
Hastening a return to RoL must be the West priority in order to avoid perpetual looming human tragedy.
As of now the ongoing events have set back the sorely need RoL in Western Myanmar with the minority Kala Muslim getting the short end, again.