Pressure mounts on the Malaysian government. Bersih co-chair Ambiga Sreenevasan talks to Jim Middleton on Newsline on the “Bersih concert” scheduled for this weekend.
Ibrahim Suffian, the director of programs, of the respected Merdeka Centre For Opinion Research, Malaysia, discusses Malaysia’s much anticipated general election.
Almost a thousand titles… Is this a catalogue of his own library? Selth is carving himself a position of legend. Why isn’t he in Canberra where something newly constructed at ANU could be named after him? Or even a room in Coombs. The Indonesia Project has its own library. Why couldn’t a future Myanmar Project have “The Selth Room”? It would require a substantial book donation, of course…
Since we already have discounted the possibility of “Annie” being the clever invention on aw and nf, maybe she is the image created by a poor soul, and this image now reproduces itself in that person’s compulsive posts. Not sure whether an old mayong master could help.
Looking at the European Union, interested in your views, whether this very slow process of integration, may actually be better, than an elite driven, quick integration (even if they are for valid reasons).
As a critic to the West’s policy , as well as being a co-conspirator for all the present ills in Myanmar, I and my ilk should be glad to see the universal trashing of the USA.
The instigator of the now well known flawed policy of the ‘Dominoes Theory’ that has resulted all the aforementioned tragic historical consequences.
The main different b/t the West continued hegemony and other dynasties is ‘the willingness to reverse the misery that have been created by the flawed policy that were espoused. All without the help of revisionists like Shamir.
One can argue, hopefully none seriously, that all dictators from Hitler to Pol Pot might have been as magnanimous as the West if given a chance to be successful as this onerous article is suggesting.
Given the manners which these dictators all had used, Stalin included to achieve the respective ends very much goes against such assumption.
To those equating collateral damages by the West with active genocide might seem reasonable thus making Nixon,Kissinger/the US gvernment as guilty as Pol Pot.
The West as a dictating entity and the guilty party to the former, resulting in more than the combine Hitlers and Pol Pot genocide is and will be different because of the respective more democratic citizenry/electorate.
Respective citizenry with an unquestionable conscience, that will always show compassion leading to a willingness to either reverse or recompense for their respective government ills.
The effectiveness of the recompenses through NGO or through local individuals are other topics to be re-discussed hopefully here at New mandala, again in the future.
Sorry, Khun V, my first reply was censored … I’ll try again. This time I’ll just refer you to Mass protest against threatened Turkey-Syria war for a description of what is, as always, not current in the globalized msm. It’s pretty clear the the ersatz ‘civil war’in Syria is just the latest in the string of US/NATO serial aggressions against Islamic countries.
@ Andrew Spooner
Posted October 6, 2012 at 6:47 PM
“I would also say that it is self-evident that Vietnam have been far less of a threat to SE Asia than the US who always seem to back the nastiest regimes… I can’t remember Vietnam indiscriminately bombing farmers in Isaan never mind the USA but maybe I missed something.”
– It was North Vietnam that first violated the territorial sovereignty of Laos and Cambodia
– In Laos, it was the Vietnamese organised Pathet Lao that indiscriminately swept up Royalist bureaucrats and their families, sending 30,000 people to the camps in Sam Neua.
There was lots of bad political behaviour to go around Indochina in the 1960s and 70s.
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Andrew’s article does reflect what i have seen on numerous occasions in villages, especially in my wife’s village.
There is a very pragmatic streak in the relationship between the spirit world and in our mundane world. I remember one ceremony i have photographed, in which the clan medium went into a trance to allow an ancestor spirit to possess her, and who then in turn, while drinking a whole bottle of Lao Khao, gave over more than one hour advice (and admonishment) to different family members. What still somehow baffles me, is that when the old lady came out of the trance, she was absolutely sober, nevertheless the whole bottle of Lao Khao she drank in large gulps during the ceremony.
Anyhow, one of the for me most fascinating things during the now almost 7 years of protest was that on all sides the spirit world was part of this conflict. All sides drew power from the spirit world, be it in large ceremonies, such as Sondhi’s infamous curse lifting by surrounding the Rama 6 statue with sanetay napkin’s of female PAD supporters (which was a freshly invented ceremony as there is no example in Thai tradition), or the blood ceremony of the Red Shirt Brahmin priest at Government House and the Democrat Party headquarters (and members of the Democrat Party straight after the Red Shirts left quickly sprinkling sacred water over the blooded steps of the entry of their headquarters, while in the next days the held more elaborate ceremonies to lift the curse).
During the time of the 2010 protests i photographed a Red Shirt protester, a villager from Buriram with a mummified arm of an “Ajarn Thong” which he used as a curse against Abhisit and the Democrat Party. This example in particular shows Andrew’s point of using the spirit world to challenge authority.
I have a large collection of Amulets given out at protests, or even issued in direct connection with the protests. Lets remember, for example, the 1-Baht Jatukam Ramathep amulet, which was minted under strong resistance by the coup government, which in itself was a direct challenge to the military, which at the time issued countless Jatukam amulets for soldiers fighting in the South.
Or even more sensitive, the different King Taksin amulets worn and distributed under Red Shirt protesters, especially from the hardcore Thonburi organisations…
I agree fully with Andrew Walker in his view here. One may not believe in spirits, but one cannot ignore the complex relationship between the spirit world and the mundane world in all aspects of Thai society and also in conflict, in which indeed power from the Spirit world is channeled to challenge authority.
That encounter by AW with not one, but two, forest spirits must have a very jarring experience (I am presuming that’s the first time for AW); jarring yet left him obviosly with a deep impression.
Having seen and ‘touched’ the two apparitions, what is it (from his encounter) that made AW believe that ‘you can actually negotiate with, make deals with and domesticate them’?
Here is one straight-forward way of looking at the subject. The spirits don’t exist, but the mumbo-jumbo certainly does. That is what is used to exploit people, or at the very least, waste their time.
“Since we now seem to be in basic epistemology,
You might be, I am not, I am discussing opinion and beliefs – to which I might add, we are as entitled to have as you are to have opposing opinions and beliefs.
It is in the nature of things that we adopt beliefs after accepting what we believe is adequate evidence, however that is constructed.Your denials of what someone else believes merely signifies you have not seen adequate evidence for you, whereas others have adequate evidence for them. Perhaps you ought to just accept that some people have more or better evidence than you have.
one might add that the symbol of a spirit does not represent it, because spirits do not exist.
That is your belief, probably based on a lack of knowledge, experience or understanding, and you are entitled to it.
The symbol of a spirit only represents the image of a spirit that people have constructed themselves.
Correct.
Therefore, a spirit does not have any power, and there cannot be any power relations with it. Incorrect, faulty logic.
Only the images have “power,” and they merely relate to themselves. Incorrect. Allow me to illustrate: We have all seen those sould who, when seeing a picture of the king of Thailand, burst into tears. Assuming this is real emotion and not just humbug or hysteria (which I am not at all sure about), this illustrates the power of symbols. Anothe example: if you are driving and you see s stop sign, it is a symbol representing an action. You stop (well, you may not but I do). Your argument is not only specious but naive as well, The human mind only thinks in pictures, and establishes links between those and actions, emotions or knowledge etc. This is how the human mind works. Including yours.
It becomes a little more tricky when one says that the word “tree” does not “represent” the “tree,” but also merely is an image. The shift here is one in emphasis.
Not al all. The sound of the word when heard and the shape of the word when viewed evoke a mental picture of a tree. Nothing to do with emphasis or tricky or anything else, merely cognition.
“Representation” refers back to the “thing,” while “image” puts the emphasis on those who construct it.
Wrong but understandably – because you have extended upon your own faulty reasoning above.
Though I by and large agree with this view, I gladly leave the details to the constructivists.
Given your apparent expertise in the subjects of cognitive psychology and religion, I think that is probably the best and safest course.
Annie
A human being responds to exactly the same emotional states as other animals. More evolved perhaps but not otherwise different.
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Government of Malaysia vs people of Malaysia
Pressure mounts on the Malaysian government. Bersih co-chair Ambiga Sreenevasan talks to Jim Middleton on Newsline on the “Bersih concert” scheduled for this weekend.
http://youtu.be/r7FF2M1uymU
The power of spirits
@Lleij Samuel Schwartz
In what way?
The power of spirits
The one thing I gather from this discussion is that Structuralism seems to be coming back in vogue.
Tea with PKR expose man
Rafizi Ramli on the opposition’s chances at the upcoming general election.
http://www.radioaustralia.net.au/international/radio/program/asia-pacific/malaysias-opposition-says-ge13-will-be-a-very-tight-race/1027244
Megatrends at Malaysia’s 13th general elections
Ibrahim Suffian, the director of programs, of the respected Merdeka Centre For Opinion Research, Malaysia, discusses Malaysia’s much anticipated general election.
http://www.radioaustralia.net.au/international/radio/program/asia-pacific/youth-vote-to-make-big-difference-in-malaysias-ge13/1027916
Andrew Selth’s Burma bibiliography
Almost a thousand titles… Is this a catalogue of his own library? Selth is carving himself a position of legend. Why isn’t he in Canberra where something newly constructed at ANU could be named after him? Or even a room in Coombs. The Indonesia Project has its own library. Why couldn’t a future Myanmar Project have “The Selth Room”? It would require a substantial book donation, of course…
The power of spirits
Since we already have discounted the possibility of “Annie” being the clever invention on aw and nf, maybe she is the image created by a poor soul, and this image now reproduces itself in that person’s compulsive posts. Not sure whether an old mayong master could help.
Not so Happy Birthdays
ggod food for thought.
By the way, 60 decades meean 600 years!?! I thing the writer means 6 decades.
ASEAN’s missed opportunities
G’day Murray,
Looking at the European Union, interested in your views, whether this very slow process of integration, may actually be better, than an elite driven, quick integration (even if they are for valid reasons).
Thanks
Counterpunch: Pol Pot wasn’t so bad
As a critic to the West’s policy , as well as being a co-conspirator for all the present ills in Myanmar, I and my ilk should be glad to see the universal trashing of the USA.
The instigator of the now well known flawed policy of the ‘Dominoes Theory’ that has resulted all the aforementioned tragic historical consequences.
The main different b/t the West continued hegemony and other dynasties is ‘the willingness to reverse the misery that have been created by the flawed policy that were espoused. All without the help of revisionists like Shamir.
One can argue, hopefully none seriously, that all dictators from Hitler to Pol Pot might have been as magnanimous as the West if given a chance to be successful as this onerous article is suggesting.
Given the manners which these dictators all had used, Stalin included to achieve the respective ends very much goes against such assumption.
To those equating collateral damages by the West with active genocide might seem reasonable thus making Nixon,Kissinger/the US gvernment as guilty as Pol Pot.
The West as a dictating entity and the guilty party to the former, resulting in more than the combine Hitlers and Pol Pot genocide is and will be different because of the respective more democratic citizenry/electorate.
Respective citizenry with an unquestionable conscience, that will always show compassion leading to a willingness to either reverse or recompense for their respective government ills.
The effectiveness of the recompenses through NGO or through local individuals are other topics to be re-discussed hopefully here at New mandala, again in the future.
Counterpunch: Pol Pot wasn’t so bad
Yes there was. But the 800 kilogram guerilla was and remains the USA,
Counterpunch: Pol Pot wasn’t so bad
Sorry, Khun V, my first reply was censored … I’ll try again. This time I’ll just refer you to Mass protest against threatened Turkey-Syria war for a description of what is, as always, not current in the globalized msm. It’s pretty clear the the ersatz ‘civil war’in Syria is just the latest in the string of US/NATO serial aggressions against Islamic countries.
Counterpunch: Pol Pot wasn’t so bad
@ Andrew Spooner
Posted October 6, 2012 at 6:47 PM
“I would also say that it is self-evident that Vietnam have been far less of a threat to SE Asia than the US who always seem to back the nastiest regimes… I can’t remember Vietnam indiscriminately bombing farmers in Isaan never mind the USA but maybe I missed something.”
– It was North Vietnam that first violated the territorial sovereignty of Laos and Cambodia
– In Laos, it was the Vietnamese organised Pathet Lao that indiscriminately swept up Royalist bureaucrats and their families, sending 30,000 people to the camps in Sam Neua.
There was lots of bad political behaviour to go around Indochina in the 1960s and 70s.
Counterpunch: Pol Pot wasn’t so bad
“Polpot’s bad” is just about settled. The idea is to be fixed by it. Syria- all bad things – Assad. Venezuela- Chavas. Etc.
In this mordern progressive day of non-retributary eglitarian thoughts.
For self indulgence. One thing must be said.
Polpot’s crime are equal to Henry Kissinger. polpot is dead. Kissinger is around. War Crimes. Oh. NOOOOO.
Polpot was trying cruellest, weirdest way for HIS country’s survival. Kisssinger and sidekick Nixon were……..
Seditious tales in Thailand
[…] are at a Facebook page requiring login. They go back to 2009, and an introduction for them is at New Mandala. Share this:FacebookTwitterStumbleUponDiggTumblrPinterestRedditLinkedInEmailPrint by […]
The power of spirits
Andrew’s article does reflect what i have seen on numerous occasions in villages, especially in my wife’s village.
There is a very pragmatic streak in the relationship between the spirit world and in our mundane world. I remember one ceremony i have photographed, in which the clan medium went into a trance to allow an ancestor spirit to possess her, and who then in turn, while drinking a whole bottle of Lao Khao, gave over more than one hour advice (and admonishment) to different family members. What still somehow baffles me, is that when the old lady came out of the trance, she was absolutely sober, nevertheless the whole bottle of Lao Khao she drank in large gulps during the ceremony.
Anyhow, one of the for me most fascinating things during the now almost 7 years of protest was that on all sides the spirit world was part of this conflict. All sides drew power from the spirit world, be it in large ceremonies, such as Sondhi’s infamous curse lifting by surrounding the Rama 6 statue with sanetay napkin’s of female PAD supporters (which was a freshly invented ceremony as there is no example in Thai tradition), or the blood ceremony of the Red Shirt Brahmin priest at Government House and the Democrat Party headquarters (and members of the Democrat Party straight after the Red Shirts left quickly sprinkling sacred water over the blooded steps of the entry of their headquarters, while in the next days the held more elaborate ceremonies to lift the curse).
During the time of the 2010 protests i photographed a Red Shirt protester, a villager from Buriram with a mummified arm of an “Ajarn Thong” which he used as a curse against Abhisit and the Democrat Party. This example in particular shows Andrew’s point of using the spirit world to challenge authority.
I have a large collection of Amulets given out at protests, or even issued in direct connection with the protests. Lets remember, for example, the 1-Baht Jatukam Ramathep amulet, which was minted under strong resistance by the coup government, which in itself was a direct challenge to the military, which at the time issued countless Jatukam amulets for soldiers fighting in the South.
Or even more sensitive, the different King Taksin amulets worn and distributed under Red Shirt protesters, especially from the hardcore Thonburi organisations…
I agree fully with Andrew Walker in his view here. One may not believe in spirits, but one cannot ignore the complex relationship between the spirit world and the mundane world in all aspects of Thai society and also in conflict, in which indeed power from the Spirit world is channeled to challenge authority.
The power of spirits
That encounter by AW with not one, but two, forest spirits must have a very jarring experience (I am presuming that’s the first time for AW); jarring yet left him obviosly with a deep impression.
Having seen and ‘touched’ the two apparitions, what is it (from his encounter) that made AW believe that ‘you can actually negotiate with, make deals with and domesticate them’?
The power of spirits
One thing is for sure: This is a rather “spirited” debate!
The power of spirits
Here is one straight-forward way of looking at the subject. The spirits don’t exist, but the mumbo-jumbo certainly does. That is what is used to exploit people, or at the very least, waste their time.
The power of spirits
“Since we now seem to be in basic epistemology,
You might be, I am not, I am discussing opinion and beliefs – to which I might add, we are as entitled to have as you are to have opposing opinions and beliefs.
It is in the nature of things that we adopt beliefs after accepting what we believe is adequate evidence, however that is constructed.Your denials of what someone else believes merely signifies you have not seen adequate evidence for you, whereas others have adequate evidence for them. Perhaps you ought to just accept that some people have more or better evidence than you have.
one might add that the symbol of a spirit does not represent it, because spirits do not exist.
That is your belief, probably based on a lack of knowledge, experience or understanding, and you are entitled to it.
The symbol of a spirit only represents the image of a spirit that people have constructed themselves.
Correct.
Therefore, a spirit does not have any power, and there cannot be any power relations with it. Incorrect, faulty logic.
Only the images have “power,” and they merely relate to themselves. Incorrect. Allow me to illustrate: We have all seen those sould who, when seeing a picture of the king of Thailand, burst into tears. Assuming this is real emotion and not just humbug or hysteria (which I am not at all sure about), this illustrates the power of symbols. Anothe example: if you are driving and you see s stop sign, it is a symbol representing an action. You stop (well, you may not but I do). Your argument is not only specious but naive as well, The human mind only thinks in pictures, and establishes links between those and actions, emotions or knowledge etc. This is how the human mind works. Including yours.
It becomes a little more tricky when one says that the word “tree” does not “represent” the “tree,” but also merely is an image. The shift here is one in emphasis.
Not al all. The sound of the word when heard and the shape of the word when viewed evoke a mental picture of a tree. Nothing to do with emphasis or tricky or anything else, merely cognition.
“Representation” refers back to the “thing,” while “image” puts the emphasis on those who construct it.
Wrong but understandably – because you have extended upon your own faulty reasoning above.
Though I by and large agree with this view, I gladly leave the details to the constructivists.
Given your apparent expertise in the subjects of cognitive psychology and religion, I think that is probably the best and safest course.
Annie
A human being responds to exactly the same emotional states as other animals. More evolved perhaps but not otherwise different.