Andrew
“A very simple rule is that a lawyer has to act in the interests of their clients.”
Yes. I’ve made this point several times. So you agree then that while the application is on behalf of the UDD, A&P’s actual client is Thaksin, so the lawyers will be acting in Thaksin’s best interest. Is that right?
“The other side need to put their case forward themselves. As I pointed out Dems/Abhisit could’ve put forward a counter case against Thaksin via the ICC. Ask them why they haven’t.”
Well there are two obvious reasons. First, the application is a bogus and cynical PR exercise. Second, no Thai government is ever going to ask the ICC to investigate anything. Why hasn’t the PTP-led administration invited the ICC to investigate? Surely they would have done if Thaksin’s motivations for supporting the application were sincere.
[…] McCargo pithily skewered the book as an “error-strewn 1999 hagiography”, while Chris Baker said of Stevenson that: ”His book on the king is … best read as a comic […]
Could another reason that the Thai government leaves them more or less alone is that if they so wished these old boys could dish vast dollops of dirt on the workings of the RTP, the RTA and Taharn Phran, past present & future? (It has to be said though that they would have to be seriously pissed to take such a perilous step.) One of your comments has already noted how they were used as buffers. As such, they were left to work their stuff until such time as Pao Siyanond and others figured out how easy it would be to shift opium out of the area by RTP aircraft, in Air America-style operations. By all means let the old KMT live in peace, but never forget how they were managed by this country’s uniformed mafias.
What A Noo NY Mouse (20) has outlined is the criminalising effects of absolutism on the Thai legal system. Absolutism is a system of criminal connections, many of them secret, that corrupts and demeans the legal system, the parliament, government administration, and necessarily the royal family and the King himself.
After 80 years of false starts, failure, and regression, the time is ripe for the system to be changed, but by persuasion. There is no point in blaming individuals, in holding them to account. That will provoke the fiercest resistance. There are also too many of them. The worst of the corrupted people will grow old still burning with resentment and hate: that is sufficient punishment for them. But the best of them will be persuaded that there was nothing to be proud of in holding office under such a system, that the Thai people deserve better, and to join in the work for it.
Marteau, #16: “… a lot of useful information that gets posted here would no longer materialise”
I think a lot of that information gets posted under real names, many of them Thai and many based in Thailand. That aside, if the information wouldn’t/shouldn’t be appearing if contributors were operating under the risks you describe, then it also surely shouldn’t be transmitted over a plain http connection either.
“In some places I think the trends are pretty good. In others they are nearly as bad as they have ever been.”
Generous assessment.
A year today.
No end in sight for Kachin. Not nearly as bad. Worse than ever on all acconts. Than Shwe would let any thing Thein Sein and Aung Min want to give away so long as there is no equal status for Kachin ( no federalism) and the pipes, rails, etc, Thant Myint- U is so delighted about keeps going on for the Chinese who treat the land as their own. Peope displaced, killed and tortured are so common place, people learned of them themselves got inured and inhuman.
Karen, at least KNU is not heeding the warning by he Kachin Environment network as there is a lage cut from large largesse from prospective loot is on offer.
What the international communities are celebrating is definately not the triumph of the Burmese public but the consolidation of the power of the military who are now firmly on their side along with their cheerleader, Aung San Suu Kyi.
Current gradual awakening of Burmese in spite of various distraction will spell the end of this injustice in Kachinland. Definately not the deadline of UNFC where majority of leaders are proving Dr Zarni’s prediction, people will not be able to resist 500 billions in store for Burma. In store for whom? And how come? Most importantly do the Burmese public want it?
” . . .Then they raped her, shot her in the head and blew up her body with C4 explosives from Najib’s defence ministry . . .”
‘But that does not make sense’ Sherlock himself could have said. If her body had been blown up with C4 explosives, how could they prove the ‘rape and shot her in the head’ claim? Coerced confession perhaps.
Irreconcilable differences are just too deep, the hurts and wounds still too fresh, and the distrust unshakeable that the Thaksin-Yingluck resort to ‘reconciliation games’ is bound to fail. It was very stupid of Thaksin-Yingluck to think that Thaksin could ever be amnestied.
Two people in Thailand must reconcile to the fact that they could never ever again be Prime Minister of Thailand: Thaksin Shinawatra and Abhisit Vejajiva.
Thaksin’s resume of criminal misconducts (the Black Shirts terror run in Year2010 the most despicable of all) are just too long and many Thais demand that Thaksin be held accountable. And Abhisit Vejajiva had been ‘tagged’ as ordering the ‘massacre’ of the Red Shirts followers in May2010 . . . and it is irrelevant whether Abhisit acted legally or otherwise.
Thank you for highlighting that very fact. (against the government and everyone)
It is tiring to call for people to go and LISTEN the people in the street everywhere, if possible everyone.
Real democracy is to fulfill their desires and wishes. They do also need unbiased full up-to-date explanation of the current situation, forces around and afoot and their likely implications, again unbiased and complete, and what if any interventions can be chosen with possible effects. Differences- discussed, debated and justly arbitrated.
No one in the world does that. Doesn’t mean one cannot start to do hat. Hard and slow, it will be for happiness of majority if not all. Wethali Kingdoms supposed to have that.
What the world has now is some romantics and elitists deciding for the future of the public like people trying to decide which particular horde of slaves for which job in good old cotton fields which has gone with the wind to end up now in Burma.
See all the most atrocious deeds in history were done by people who believed they knew what was required for the “greater good”. Unless the deeds are Done for the expressed desire of the public directly affected, all who want to impse on them are little Hitlers, Mao’s, Starlings and Franco’s. They were all for the “Greater Good”. They all got overwhelming public support never finding out what the public wanted until the sticky end.
Public of Burma, quietly forgotten while their sentences are passed by self- styled judges and executioners.
While the US wasted no time in seeking military ties, at least the Australians to their credit have pledged funding of TMU’s Yangon Heritage Trust and education.
In fairness, The Irrawaddy‘s Lawi Weng continues to report on the KIO and the ongoing war.
The law is intentionally vague and sweeping to allow the authorities the leeway to strike at opponents, as well as at random in order to incite fear and self-censorship.
I wonder why the analysts are giving so much weight to the case of Prachathai admin as a “legal precedent”. There is no such concept in Thailand, no requirement for consistency, or even basic respect for facts, in judicial decisions. All this decision means is that the judges decided it’s the best way to balance things to advance their own positions.
Law is used just for appearances, to provide cover for official decisions, and discarded as needed (note how often the *constitution* is simply tossed out).
In LM cases, a Thai judge simply cannot acquit the defendant, even in a remarkably weak case and even when there’s strong evidence of innocence. Acquittal would mean the judge opens himself to accusations by peers and superiors that he does not sufficiently love the king. Officials typically hand-picked due to connections simply won’t do it.
In this case, Khun Chiranuch was lucky that there was enough of a public outcry (including from commercial interests), so the judges saw the suspended sentence as the path of least resistance (instead of a heavy jail sentence). Nothing to do at all with guilt, innocence, legal precedent, or even phrasing of laws.
The recently passed Evidence (Amendment) (No 2) Act 2012, whereby internet users are held liable for any content posted through their registered networks or data processing device, is both unfair and an attempt to put fear in people, says civil society.
Section 114A, which explains presumption of fact in publication, states:
– a person whose name, photograph or pseudonym appears on any publication depicting himself as the owner, host, administrator, editor or sub-editor, or who in any manner facilitates to publish or re-publish the publication is presumed to have published or re-published the contents of the publication unless the contrary is proved.
– a person who is registered with a network service provider as a subscriber of a network service on which any publication originates from is presumed to be the person who published or re-published the publication unless the contrary is proved.
– Any person who has in his custody or control any computer on which any publication originates from is presumed to have published or re-published the content of the publication unless the contrary is proved. (Computer here means any data processing device, including tablets, laptops and mobile phones.)
Najib Razak, the Nottingham educated leader of the global movement of moderates, who wants Malaysia to become a world class democracy, is surely taking lessons from Thailand.
A article that described “A potpourri of near insurmountable challenges” that lay ahead.
Absolute lacking in apportioning blame/responsibility to the West policy of just yesterday however make the author’s sentiment abundantly clear.
A sentiment absolutely inline with the like of Ohn and Ko Moe Aung.
Reliably always anti this government as well as anti everyone, such as David Steinberg in the past and now Ko Thant Myint-U, who will even dare to suggest ideas that will effect a paradigm shift.
All problems mentioned created over decades, WILL be solved with improvement in Education, Healthcare and Economic opportunities to a deprived Citizenry, a Citizenry with know resiliency as well as inextinguishable hope.
@ tocherian #6
Get over the hangover you got from too much of The Irrawaddy.
For the curious Hla Oo’s blog from Australia has this post on recent disturbing events in Arrakan. There is a warning that the story and photos are extremely graphic.
“Again the money would have been better spent on 300 primary schools for the children of the public.”
Sure sounds like an after thought, mentioned to legitimize one’s ranting on distantly related Kachin-Bamar conflicts, Bamar chauvinism and other myriad of issues yet need to be addressed.
Due to unconscionable willful neglect in every respect, by both the Myanmar government made worst by the absolute absent of inputs from the West yesterday policy of prohibition.
1┬║ and 2┬║ ed system are thoroughly broken in all it tripartite manifestation of: the Parents, the Teachers and the Students.
Yet the unabashed zeal to have a good education within Myanmar is well described here @ New Mandala.
The only real constraints to the potentials of the tripartite to the ed. system are lack of opportunity to Economic well being and Healthcare.
At present Investment by McDonald in any respect will bode well to the overall economy.
Even better will be the Australian Government and similarly directed investments in specific projects that will improve a Citizenry through economic opportunities locally, in Yangon, thus partially negating the constraints to the ed. system.
A very simple rule is that a lawyer has to act in the interests of their clients. The other side need to put their case forward themselves. As I pointed out Dems/Abhisit could’ve put forward a counter case against Thaksin via the ICC. Ask them why they haven’t.
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Reconciliation games
Andrew
“A very simple rule is that a lawyer has to act in the interests of their clients.”
Yes. I’ve made this point several times. So you agree then that while the application is on behalf of the UDD, A&P’s actual client is Thaksin, so the lawyers will be acting in Thaksin’s best interest. Is that right?
“The other side need to put their case forward themselves. As I pointed out Dems/Abhisit could’ve put forward a counter case against Thaksin via the ICC. Ask them why they haven’t.”
Well there are two obvious reasons. First, the application is a bogus and cynical PR exercise. Second, no Thai government is ever going to ask the ICC to investigate anything. Why hasn’t the PTP-led administration invited the ICC to investigate? Surely they would have done if Thaksin’s motivations for supporting the application were sincere.
Stevenson on King Bhumibol
[…] McCargo pithily skewered the book as an “error-strewn 1999 hagiography”, while Chris Baker said of Stevenson that: ”His book on the king is … best read as a comic […]
Reconciliation games
C49.
The question then arises why do the Dems keep Abhisit as their leader?
Kuomintang in northern Thailand
Could another reason that the Thai government leaves them more or less alone is that if they so wished these old boys could dish vast dollops of dirt on the workings of the RTP, the RTA and Taharn Phran, past present & future? (It has to be said though that they would have to be seriously pissed to take such a perilous step.) One of your comments has already noted how they were used as buffers. As such, they were left to work their stuff until such time as Pao Siyanond and others figured out how easy it would be to shift opium out of the area by RTP aircraft, in Air America-style operations. By all means let the old KMT live in peace, but never forget how they were managed by this country’s uniformed mafias.
Comments, comments, comments
What A Noo NY Mouse (20) has outlined is the criminalising effects of absolutism on the Thai legal system. Absolutism is a system of criminal connections, many of them secret, that corrupts and demeans the legal system, the parliament, government administration, and necessarily the royal family and the King himself.
After 80 years of false starts, failure, and regression, the time is ripe for the system to be changed, but by persuasion. There is no point in blaming individuals, in holding them to account. That will provoke the fiercest resistance. There are also too many of them. The worst of the corrupted people will grow old still burning with resentment and hate: that is sufficient punishment for them. But the best of them will be persuaded that there was nothing to be proud of in holding office under such a system, that the Thai people deserve better, and to join in the work for it.
Comments, comments, comments
Marteau, #16: “… a lot of useful information that gets posted here would no longer materialise”
I think a lot of that information gets posted under real names, many of them Thai and many based in Thailand. That aside, if the information wouldn’t/shouldn’t be appearing if contributors were operating under the risks you describe, then it also surely shouldn’t be transmitted over a plain http connection either.
A deadline looms in Kachin war
“In some places I think the trends are pretty good. In others they are nearly as bad as they have ever been.”
Generous assessment.
A year today.
No end in sight for Kachin. Not nearly as bad. Worse than ever on all acconts. Than Shwe would let any thing Thein Sein and Aung Min want to give away so long as there is no equal status for Kachin ( no federalism) and the pipes, rails, etc, Thant Myint- U is so delighted about keeps going on for the Chinese who treat the land as their own. Peope displaced, killed and tortured are so common place, people learned of them themselves got inured and inhuman.
Karen, at least KNU is not heeding the warning by he Kachin Environment network as there is a lage cut from large largesse from prospective loot is on offer.
Norwegian involvement is not necessarily a wonderful news either. http://www.tamilnet.com/art.html?catid=79&artid=35252
What the international communities are celebrating is definately not the triumph of the Burmese public but the consolidation of the power of the military who are now firmly on their side along with their cheerleader, Aung San Suu Kyi.
Current gradual awakening of Burmese in spite of various distraction will spell the end of this injustice in Kachinland. Definately not the deadline of UNFC where majority of leaders are proving Dr Zarni’s prediction, people will not be able to resist 500 billions in store for Burma. In store for whom? And how come? Most importantly do the Burmese public want it?
Altantuya and Malaysia’s 13th general elections
” . . .Then they raped her, shot her in the head and blew up her body with C4 explosives from Najib’s defence ministry . . .”
‘But that does not make sense’ Sherlock himself could have said. If her body had been blown up with C4 explosives, how could they prove the ‘rape and shot her in the head’ claim? Coerced confession perhaps.
Reconciliation games
Irreconcilable differences are just too deep, the hurts and wounds still too fresh, and the distrust unshakeable that the Thaksin-Yingluck resort to ‘reconciliation games’ is bound to fail. It was very stupid of Thaksin-Yingluck to think that Thaksin could ever be amnestied.
Two people in Thailand must reconcile to the fact that they could never ever again be Prime Minister of Thailand: Thaksin Shinawatra and Abhisit Vejajiva.
Thaksin’s resume of criminal misconducts (the Black Shirts terror run in Year2010 the most despicable of all) are just too long and many Thais demand that Thaksin be held accountable. And Abhisit Vejajiva had been ‘tagged’ as ordering the ‘massacre’ of the Red Shirts followers in May2010 . . . and it is irrelevant whether Abhisit acted legally or otherwise.
Getting real about Myanmar’s development
Plan B,
Thank you for highlighting that very fact. (against the government and everyone)
It is tiring to call for people to go and LISTEN the people in the street everywhere, if possible everyone.
Real democracy is to fulfill their desires and wishes. They do also need unbiased full up-to-date explanation of the current situation, forces around and afoot and their likely implications, again unbiased and complete, and what if any interventions can be chosen with possible effects. Differences- discussed, debated and justly arbitrated.
No one in the world does that. Doesn’t mean one cannot start to do hat. Hard and slow, it will be for happiness of majority if not all. Wethali Kingdoms supposed to have that.
What the world has now is some romantics and elitists deciding for the future of the public like people trying to decide which particular horde of slaves for which job in good old cotton fields which has gone with the wind to end up now in Burma.
See all the most atrocious deeds in history were done by people who believed they knew what was required for the “greater good”. Unless the deeds are Done for the expressed desire of the public directly affected, all who want to impse on them are little Hitlers, Mao’s, Starlings and Franco’s. They were all for the “Greater Good”. They all got overwhelming public support never finding out what the public wanted until the sticky end.
Public of Burma, quietly forgotten while their sentences are passed by self- styled judges and executioners.
Getting real about Myanmar’s development
Joshua Kurlantzick, a fellow for Southeast Asia at the Council on Foreign Relations gives us his take on the current situation.
Thant Myint-U on Yangon
While the US wasted no time in seeking military ties, at least the Australians to their credit have pledged funding of TMU’s Yangon Heritage Trust and education.
In fairness, The Irrawaddy‘s Lawi Weng continues to report on the KIO and
the ongoing war.
Comments, comments, comments
The law is intentionally vague and sweeping to allow the authorities the leeway to strike at opponents, as well as at random in order to incite fear and self-censorship.
I wonder why the analysts are giving so much weight to the case of Prachathai admin as a “legal precedent”. There is no such concept in Thailand, no requirement for consistency, or even basic respect for facts, in judicial decisions. All this decision means is that the judges decided it’s the best way to balance things to advance their own positions.
Law is used just for appearances, to provide cover for official decisions, and discarded as needed (note how often the *constitution* is simply tossed out).
In LM cases, a Thai judge simply cannot acquit the defendant, even in a remarkably weak case and even when there’s strong evidence of innocence. Acquittal would mean the judge opens himself to accusations by peers and superiors that he does not sufficiently love the king. Officials typically hand-picked due to connections simply won’t do it.
In this case, Khun Chiranuch was lucky that there was enough of a public outcry (including from commercial interests), so the judges saw the suspended sentence as the path of least resistance (instead of a heavy jail sentence). Nothing to do at all with guilt, innocence, legal precedent, or even phrasing of laws.
Comments, comments, comments
Amazing – is Malaysia following Thailand’s lead?
Najib Razak, the Nottingham educated leader of the global movement of moderates, who wants Malaysia to become a world class democracy, is surely taking lessons from Thailand.
Getting real about Myanmar’s development
A article that described “A potpourri of near insurmountable challenges” that lay ahead.
Absolute lacking in apportioning blame/responsibility to the West policy of just yesterday however make the author’s sentiment abundantly clear.
A sentiment absolutely inline with the like of Ohn and Ko Moe Aung.
Reliably always anti this government as well as anti everyone, such as David Steinberg in the past and now Ko Thant Myint-U, who will even dare to suggest ideas that will effect a paradigm shift.
All problems mentioned created over decades, WILL be solved with improvement in Education, Healthcare and Economic opportunities to a deprived Citizenry, a Citizenry with know resiliency as well as inextinguishable hope.
@ tocherian #6
Get over the hangover you got from too much of The Irrawaddy.
Here at New Mandala
Burma=Myanmar=Myanmar Pye
Burmese+?=Bamar+?
Thant Myint-U on Yangon
For the curious Hla Oo’s blog from Australia has this post on recent disturbing events in Arrakan. There is a warning that the story and photos are extremely graphic.
http://hlaoo1980.blogspot.com/2012/06/arrakan-boiling-with-anti-islamic-fever.html
Thant Myint-U on Yangon
#35
“Again the money would have been better spent on 300 primary schools for the children of the public.”
Sure sounds like an after thought, mentioned to legitimize one’s ranting on distantly related Kachin-Bamar conflicts, Bamar chauvinism and other myriad of issues yet need to be addressed.
Due to unconscionable willful neglect in every respect, by both the Myanmar government made worst by the absolute absent of inputs from the West yesterday policy of prohibition.
1┬║ and 2┬║ ed system are thoroughly broken in all it tripartite manifestation of: the Parents, the Teachers and the Students.
Yet the unabashed zeal to have a good education within Myanmar is well described here @ New Mandala.
The only real constraints to the potentials of the tripartite to the ed. system are lack of opportunity to Economic well being and Healthcare.
At present Investment by McDonald in any respect will bode well to the overall economy.
Even better will be the Australian Government and similarly directed investments in specific projects that will improve a Citizenry through economic opportunities locally, in Yangon, thus partially negating the constraints to the ed. system.
Comments, comments, comments
You could have a verified ID check system with anonymous commenting.
There’s advantages and disadvantages with going with that same as there are with persisting with the status quo.
Yes, LM has universal jurisdiction which therefore turns it into a “global” issue and not just one for Thais.
Reconciliation games
Marteau
Sorry but you’re wrong. The UK has no veto over the ICC.
If the ICC decide to conduct an investigation into Mark, the only way the UK could stop it is if they investigate him instead.
Reconciliation games
Greg
A very simple rule is that a lawyer has to act in the interests of their clients. The other side need to put their case forward themselves. As I pointed out Dems/Abhisit could’ve put forward a counter case against Thaksin via the ICC. Ask them why they haven’t.