where are red shirts and thai voters in his analysis? does pavin really see them as a non-consequential actor in the entire thing? …… does pavin needs to have a better grounding in how democracy itself works?
You’ve based your question on assumption that Thailand is “democratic”. Actually, no matter how big of the crowd the red can mustered or how large of the vote PTP can get from the ballot box, it matter very little under current political system.
The prove of that?? Thaksin still got kick out from the coup, and he got 17 millions vote under the belt.
About 30 years ago, I was sitting with other youngsters in the local shop located at the edge of our street. A coporal from adjacent barrack was there and proudly told his interesting frontline experiences to us.
Guess what?
He said, they chased Kachin women for sex whenever they see these women in remote areas. He was literally bragging and I only realized this as rapes almost a decade later.
Another story I could remember was about a damned porter who elbowed him and disappeared after rolling down to a thick forest ravine. Of course, now I know that it was a poor guy who tried to escape from his slow-death process at front line which now called forced labour.
Kachin and Karen might forgive for these atrocities but to forget is not an easy task. Sadly, state media and some Burmese are trying to twist the truth and making people to be confused. Reconciliation is a long way to go.
Myitkyina and Bamaw (Bhamo) are still Shan Burmese majority cities to this day with a sizable and growing Chinese minority like most towns along the upper Irrawaddy valley such as Shwegu and not a lot of Kachin who remain basically hill dwellers and stick by the headwaters of the Irrawaddy.
Having said that the war is a disgrace to have gone on for as long as it has without ever trying to find a viable political solution, no different in other ethnic homelands. Going through the motions of peace parleys from time to time as a self serving and chauvinistic tactical retreat is not good enough and never going to produce results beneficial to all concerned namely internal peace and genuine development, not a free for all happy hunting ground for Chinese and international Big Business.
Makes you wonder there’s something seriously wrong with the common denominator, doesn’t it? The Burmese term is Nga Pwa Gyi that the regime itself is very fond of in describing the West. Touche.
” My favourite line:
р╕кр╣Ир╕зр╕Щр╕Хр╕▒р╕зр╕гр╕╣р╣Йр╕Ир╕▒р╕Бр╕Эр╕гр╕▒р╣Ир╕Зр╕Юр╕нр╕кр╕бр╕Др╕зр╕г р╣Др╕бр╣Ир╕Др╕┤р╕Фр╕зр╣Ир╕▓р╕Эр╕гр╕▒р╣Ир╕Зр╕Ир╕░р╕кр╕Щр╣Гр╕Ир╕Бр╕▓р╕гр╣Ар╕бр╕╖р╕нр╕Зр╣Др╕Чр╕вр╕бр╕▓р╕Бр╣Ар╕Юр╕╡р╕вр╕Зр╕Юр╕нр╕Чр╕╡р╣Ир╕Ир╕░р╕зр╕┤р╕Ир╕▓р╕гр╕Ур╣Мр╣Бр╕Фр╕Бр╕Фр╕▒р╕Щр╕бр╕▓р╕гр╣Мр╕Др╕лр╕гр╕нр╕Бр╕Др╣Ир╕░ ”
This is a typical “Thai Salim” (who embarce coup d’etat and also love democracy LOL), may I translate:
“I’m quite accustomed to Farangs and don’t think that they
actually know deeply about Thailand’s political problems enought to call Abhisit Vejjajiva ‘The Butcher of Bangkok’.
What a poor Salim girl, you know Farangs a lot but don’t you think that many Farangs may also know ‘you’ a lot in return?
If I compare John Smith’s remarks with Andrew Spooner’s whining, I think the winner clearly is Smith (even though the quality marks have it the other way round).
I should add that it is a shame you have to deflect this debate into some kind of personal attack on myself.
Everyone else here is discussing the film, the censorship of that film, the film-makers, the politics of the film-makers etc.
You, however, seem to have a personal grudge against me for reasons that seem unfathomable. You don’t even contend the points I raise but just become abusive.
You ask “How did this get to be discussion on the PTP electoral mandate?”
Please look at your comment numbered 11 on this thread.
You asked
“As some 51% of the people in the 2011 election did not choose Thaksin’s party on their ballot, you are saying that over half the people that voted in that election prefer less democracy?”
The issue of Pheu Thai’s mandate had not been raised before that.
So, in response to your original question – you need to answer that yourself.
I also think calling me a “pet rabid dog” is the only example of ” hate filled, vitriolic demagoguery” on this entire thread.
Surprise, surprise. The vultures have landed to join the hyenas in the feeding frenzy.
Burma might even be seen as part of the answer in solving their own recessionary crises. And we’ll have our own crises up a much higher and more modern level when the dust has settled. The Burmese Way to the New World Order. Up the smart generals! They are on to a win win scenario, stronger and more prosperous with assured membership to the billionaires’ club.
The mighty Sibeh Ah Beng, Sabai Sabai, Martino Ray, Grasshopper pop quiz team says:
How should Australia and Thailand interact, especially with respect to sensitive issue like “public policy process and governance”?
This question is difficult to answer without knowing more details about the current interactions of Thailand Australia in relation to improving governance processes. Obviously there needs to be greater transparency in relation to public policy from Bangkok, and I’d hope that this website allows Australian officials some leverage in negotiating with Thai officials in that respect. However, I suspect that this website causes more introverted behaviour from Thai officials, and subsequently, this website proves to be much more of a pain for coaxing more transparent policy than coaxing anything ‘win-win’… at the moment… because New Mandala is confrontational, and confrontation doesn’t lend itself to recovering face and basking in mutual respect.
Are some issues of public policy and governance simply too-hot-to-handle?
No there aren’t any public policy and governance issues too-hot-to-handle because actual public policy and governance issues are usually kept private between bureaucrats who are all playing the same game. Public policy issues may, however, be too hot to handle for the public which is why they are kept private. With regards to transparency, of course, it is best if those public policy issues are not private for long. But, that depends on the maturity of the society to have reasoned debates, and perhaps Thai bureaucrats don’t think their society is very mature…?
What lessons can we draw from the past 6 years of interaction?
Shame is a difficult position to recover from. Transparency is difficult to achieve. Thai public policy is a prickly pear…
What does this recent history tell us about the future of Thailand-Australia ties?
In this marriage we ignore many flaws and only concentrate on what’s best. Likely to continue to avoid trading in honesty directly, but instead speak more honestly about the partner to the ceilings of hotel rooms at regional forums.
And are there elements that are relevant to Australia’s ties with other Asian nations?
Many, but the main one is, how do slightly open, but still conservative and mostly authoritarian Southeast Asian states deal with Australians who, at their core and even if they’re not immediately conscious of it, are more conservative about liberalism, and I mean liberalism in its classical sense, than they are about their system, ruler or demi-god?
How did this get to be discussion on the PTP electoral mandate? It’s a discussion on your statement that 95% of Thaksin’s opponents are anti-democracy. That simply is not true, you know it’s not true, and is just a shining example of the type of statements you are prone to make. When confronted with facts you resort to long straw man dissertations attempting to deflect attention away from your untrue statements. Now man up and admit it was an excessive exaggeration you made in the heat of the moment.
Here is my current favorite from your post #21
Ing K is nothing more than another PAD-inflected anti-Thaksin propagandist willing to get into bed with violent neo-fascists and the killers in the military
This again is nothing more than a hate filled, vitriolic demagoguery that contributes nothing constructive to any rational discussion. The only reason it is tolerated here is simply because the point of view is shared with the editors here and you are their pet rabid dog.
The issue is Asia is not relevant to most Australians lives the reasons for this are :
1: Australia has European traditions that make it difficult
to understand the many different Asian cultures.
2: We are not accepted by other Asian countries and must likely it will
be a while before that changes.
3: Australian businesses have a had a string of failures when doing business in Asia this I would imagine make Australian CEO’s look to Europe and the U.S.A were at least they know they have an even chance.
This may change in the future who knows ? However this change will be along time in coming.
The AFP is most certainly not infallible. They have had some very good reporters in Cambodia and also some absolutely terrible ones who were little more than local hire gap year kids sprouted laterally from the Cambodia Daily and grateful for beans. I have no idea who is manning the bureau there now…. Nick Nostitz tends very much to be as scrupulous as he possibly can be with his facts…. And estimating crowds is always exactly that…. Estimation.
I fully support Ing K’s right to free speech/artistic expression and would have no problem coming out to march with her even though it appears that we may differ ideologically.
Be glad the Hebrew Jesus will not be rolling in his grave after seeing this:
“The Kachin are Christian to a large degree. Your careless useless post indicates that you feel they should be good little Buddhists and go along with the Burmese majority.”
the knavish attempt to divide Myanmar Citizenry along religious line.
For the simple obvious reason of EASTER.
SPDC tactics of Buddhist Karen against Cristian Karen.
Please leave your brand of “Crusader Christianity” out of Myanmar. The ongoing shameful and tragic result are still every where from AFrica to the middle East.
ALL religious CBO help Myanmar Citizenry to endure the unspeakable suffering that this government has inflicted with the help of the West useless careless policy.
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Royal pardon for Thaksin? Or coup for the king?
taxirubjang – 3
We appreciate a man who surrender and feel guilty for what he has done.
Unless he got a retrial under a proper due process, I still think the man got nothing to feel guilty about.
Thaksin’s freedom: The price of royalist-military dominance?
anon – 1
where are red shirts and thai voters in his analysis? does pavin really see them as a non-consequential actor in the entire thing? …… does pavin needs to have a better grounding in how democracy itself works?
You’ve based your question on assumption that Thailand is “democratic”. Actually, no matter how big of the crowd the red can mustered or how large of the vote PTP can get from the ballot box, it matter very little under current political system.
The prove of that?? Thaksin still got kick out from the coup, and he got 17 millions vote under the belt.
Double, double toil and trouble…
Srithanonchai
It’s weird, huh?
And it’s also happened on every other single thread John Smith and I have “debated” on.
What do you make of that, eh?
Seriously though, let’s bring the debate back to the matter at hand.
I’ll be interested to get to read Ricardo’s review. Particularly if Shakespeare Must Die is anything like any of Ing K’s films.
Hopefully someone can also put it on Youtube…
Internationalising the Kachin war
About 30 years ago, I was sitting with other youngsters in the local shop located at the edge of our street. A coporal from adjacent barrack was there and proudly told his interesting frontline experiences to us.
Guess what?
He said, they chased Kachin women for sex whenever they see these women in remote areas. He was literally bragging and I only realized this as rapes almost a decade later.
Another story I could remember was about a damned porter who elbowed him and disappeared after rolling down to a thick forest ravine. Of course, now I know that it was a poor guy who tried to escape from his slow-death process at front line which now called forced labour.
Kachin and Karen might forgive for these atrocities but to forget is not an easy task. Sadly, state media and some Burmese are trying to twist the truth and making people to be confused. Reconciliation is a long way to go.
Kachin State: Don’t mention the war
Myitkyina and Bamaw (Bhamo) are still Shan Burmese majority cities to this day with a sizable and growing Chinese minority like most towns along the upper Irrawaddy valley such as Shwegu and not a lot of Kachin who remain basically hill dwellers and stick by the headwaters of the Irrawaddy.
Having said that the war is a disgrace to have gone on for as long as it has without ever trying to find a viable political solution, no different in other ethnic homelands. Going through the motions of peace parleys from time to time as a self serving and chauvinistic tactical retreat is not good enough and never going to produce results beneficial to all concerned namely internal peace and genuine development, not a free for all happy hunting ground for Chinese and international Big Business.
Makes you wonder there’s something seriously wrong with the common denominator, doesn’t it? The Burmese term is Nga Pwa Gyi that the regime itself is very fond of in describing the West. Touche.
Questions for Abhisit Vejjajiva
For the funny’s sake;
” My favourite line:
р╕кр╣Ир╕зр╕Щр╕Хр╕▒р╕зр╕гр╕╣р╣Йр╕Ир╕▒р╕Бр╕Эр╕гр╕▒р╣Ир╕Зр╕Юр╕нр╕кр╕бр╕Др╕зр╕г р╣Др╕бр╣Ир╕Др╕┤р╕Фр╕зр╣Ир╕▓р╕Эр╕гр╕▒р╣Ир╕Зр╕Ир╕░р╕кр╕Щр╣Гр╕Ир╕Бр╕▓р╕гр╣Ар╕бр╕╖р╕нр╕Зр╣Др╕Чр╕вр╕бр╕▓р╕Бр╣Ар╕Юр╕╡р╕вр╕Зр╕Юр╕нр╕Чр╕╡р╣Ир╕Ир╕░р╕зр╕┤р╕Ир╕▓р╕гр╕Ур╣Мр╣Бр╕Фр╕Бр╕Фр╕▒р╕Щр╕бр╕▓р╕гр╣Мр╕Др╕лр╕гр╕нр╕Бр╕Др╣Ир╕░ ”
This is a typical “Thai Salim” (who embarce coup d’etat and also love democracy LOL), may I translate:
“I’m quite accustomed to Farangs and don’t think that they
actually know deeply about Thailand’s political problems enought to call Abhisit Vejjajiva ‘The Butcher of Bangkok’.
What a poor Salim girl, you know Farangs a lot but don’t you think that many Farangs may also know ‘you’ a lot in return?
Double, double toil and trouble…
If I compare John Smith’s remarks with Andrew Spooner’s whining, I think the winner clearly is Smith (even though the quality marks have it the other way round).
Booming Burma
[…] New Mandala […]
Double, double toil and trouble…
John Smith
I should add that it is a shame you have to deflect this debate into some kind of personal attack on myself.
Everyone else here is discussing the film, the censorship of that film, the film-makers, the politics of the film-makers etc.
You, however, seem to have a personal grudge against me for reasons that seem unfathomable. You don’t even contend the points I raise but just become abusive.
Why not stick to the actual debate instead?
Double, double toil and trouble…
I’ve been invited to a private screening of the film and will write a review if I have time for all those interested.
-RD
Double, double toil and trouble…
John Smith
You ask “How did this get to be discussion on the PTP electoral mandate?”
Please look at your comment numbered 11 on this thread.
You asked
“As some 51% of the people in the 2011 election did not choose Thaksin’s party on their ballot, you are saying that over half the people that voted in that election prefer less democracy?”
The issue of Pheu Thai’s mandate had not been raised before that.
So, in response to your original question – you need to answer that yourself.
I also think calling me a “pet rabid dog” is the only example of ” hate filled, vitriolic demagoguery” on this entire thread.
You’re not very good at this are you?
Booming Burma
Surprise, surprise. The vultures have landed to join the hyenas in the feeding frenzy.
Burma might even be seen as part of the answer in solving their own recessionary crises. And we’ll have our own crises up a much higher and more modern level when the dust has settled. The Burmese Way to the New World Order. Up the smart generals! They are on to a win win scenario, stronger and more prosperous with assured membership to the billionaires’ club.
Insufficient interest? Australia, Thailand and Asia
Just some quick responses…
How should Australia and Thailand interact, especially with respect to sensitive issue like “public policy process and governance”?
This question is difficult to answer without knowing more details about the current interactions of Thailand Australia in relation to improving governance processes. Obviously there needs to be greater transparency in relation to public policy from Bangkok, and I’d hope that this website allows Australian officials some leverage in negotiating with Thai officials in that respect. However, I suspect that this website causes more introverted behaviour from Thai officials, and subsequently, this website proves to be much more of a pain for coaxing more transparent policy than coaxing anything ‘win-win’… at the moment… because New Mandala is confrontational, and confrontation doesn’t lend itself to recovering face and basking in mutual respect.
Are some issues of public policy and governance simply too-hot-to-handle?
No there aren’t any public policy and governance issues too-hot-to-handle because actual public policy and governance issues are usually kept private between bureaucrats who are all playing the same game. Public policy issues may, however, be too hot to handle for the public which is why they are kept private. With regards to transparency, of course, it is best if those public policy issues are not private for long. But, that depends on the maturity of the society to have reasoned debates, and perhaps Thai bureaucrats don’t think their society is very mature…?
What lessons can we draw from the past 6 years of interaction?
Shame is a difficult position to recover from. Transparency is difficult to achieve. Thai public policy is a prickly pear…
What does this recent history tell us about the future of Thailand-Australia ties?
In this marriage we ignore many flaws and only concentrate on what’s best. Likely to continue to avoid trading in honesty directly, but instead speak more honestly about the partner to the ceilings of hotel rooms at regional forums.
And are there elements that are relevant to Australia’s ties with other Asian nations?
Many, but the main one is, how do slightly open, but still conservative and mostly authoritarian Southeast Asian states deal with Australians who, at their core and even if they’re not immediately conscious of it, are more conservative about liberalism, and I mean liberalism in its classical sense, than they are about their system, ruler or demi-god?
Double, double toil and trouble…
Andrew S. #16
How did this get to be discussion on the PTP electoral mandate? It’s a discussion on your statement that 95% of Thaksin’s opponents are anti-democracy. That simply is not true, you know it’s not true, and is just a shining example of the type of statements you are prone to make. When confronted with facts you resort to long straw man dissertations attempting to deflect attention away from your untrue statements. Now man up and admit it was an excessive exaggeration you made in the heat of the moment.
Here is my current favorite from your post #21
Ing K is nothing more than another PAD-inflected anti-Thaksin propagandist willing to get into bed with violent neo-fascists and the killers in the military
This again is nothing more than a hate filled, vitriolic demagoguery that contributes nothing constructive to any rational discussion. The only reason it is tolerated here is simply because the point of view is shared with the editors here and you are their pet rabid dog.
Asia literacy for Australia
The issue is Asia is not relevant to most Australians lives the reasons for this are :
1: Australia has European traditions that make it difficult
to understand the many different Asian cultures.
2: We are not accepted by other Asian countries and must likely it will
be a while before that changes.
3: Australian businesses have a had a string of failures when doing business in Asia this I would imagine make Australian CEO’s look to Europe and the U.S.A were at least they know they have an even chance.
This may change in the future who knows ? However this change will be along time in coming.
When Thaksin comes home
The AFP is most certainly not infallible. They have had some very good reporters in Cambodia and also some absolutely terrible ones who were little more than local hire gap year kids sprouted laterally from the Cambodia Daily and grateful for beans. I have no idea who is manning the bureau there now…. Nick Nostitz tends very much to be as scrupulous as he possibly can be with his facts…. And estimating crowds is always exactly that…. Estimation.
Double, double toil and trouble…
I fully support Ing K’s right to free speech/artistic expression and would have no problem coming out to march with her even though it appears that we may differ ideologically.
Internationalising the Kachin war
Is this post with videos more proofs of KIA fighting a loosing war?
http://hlaoo1980.blogspot.com/2012/04/kia-forced-recruits-surrendered.html#more
Kachin State: Don’t mention the war
Charles F.
Be glad the Hebrew Jesus will not be rolling in his grave after seeing this:
“The Kachin are Christian to a large degree. Your careless useless post indicates that you feel they should be good little Buddhists and go along with the Burmese majority.”
the knavish attempt to divide Myanmar Citizenry along religious line.
For the simple obvious reason of EASTER.
SPDC tactics of Buddhist Karen against Cristian Karen.
Please leave your brand of “Crusader Christianity” out of Myanmar. The ongoing shameful and tragic result are still every where from AFrica to the middle East.
ALL religious CBO help Myanmar Citizenry to endure the unspeakable suffering that this government has inflicted with the help of the West useless careless policy.
Review of This World’s a Stage
Isnt ‘soap opera’ a better translation of ‘lakhorn’ – ie ‘this world’s (the bureacracy) a soap opera?