I’m sure racists and bigots have no logical brain and that’s why they can be racists. Here are some facts for all the bigots:
1) U Nu’s government, the only democratically elected government that ran the country after the independent, recognized us as “Rohingya” and “ethnic of Arakan” and “citizens” of Burma.
2) Burmese encyclopedia or “Myanmar Swezon-kyann” was NOT written by any Kallar or Taliban or any of your fantasized enemy–it was written by Burmese historian and approved by the Burmese government. Go and read page 90 of Volume 9 and educate yourself about Rohingya.
3) Go and read the textbook “Geography for Std. 9th and 10th, printed in 1978, printed press 361 Pyay Rd. Sarbay Viman, on page 86 map Mayu area was clearly marked as “Rohingya’s dwelling place”. It was printed in Ne Win’s era.
4) Arakanese DOES NOT mean Rakhaing nor Buddhists. Arakanese simply means all the peoples of Arakan regardless of race or religion. That includes Rakhaing (Mogh), Rohingya, Chakma (Daing-nak), Mro, etc. There are Buddhists, Muslims, Hindus, Christians, Animists, and Atheists in Arakan.
5) Arakan was colonized and destroyed by the Burmese king Bo Dow Maung Wane–NOT by Muslims. In fact Muslims helped reinstalled the dethrone king Naramik Hla.
6) Rakhaing Phra was forcefully taken away by the Burman king….Muslim should not be blame for it.
You are a bunch of bigots and ignorant, and government backed thugs. Go and learn the real facts before barking nonsense.
This is the perfect example, of white people knowingly play the race card, by proxy (think Crusoe).
Thus driving the “RHETORIC” out of hand.
KALAR; A term generally referred to persons of Indian/Dravidian descent in Myanmar. There are sub divisions among the kalar people.
Those who ID themselves as per religion, believes, languages or ethnic origins. Very few that does not fall under this descriptions. Sikh is one of the group. Anyone with a Dravidian feature and dark skin is usually called a ‘kalar’. This apply even to pure blooded Bamar or any other ethnic sons and to a certain extend daughters who share the dark skin and Dravidian feature. They are usually referred endearingly as kalar ley ( little kalar) or kalamart Ley (Female gender).
Anyone with any correct motivation can easily find out these basic facts.
The kalar people in Yakhine state get the shortest ends of the the sanctions/deprivation, 2┬║ to the nature:
“the most different minority get the worst deal”.
This period transpired among the kalar in other states such as Shan and Maulamyein etc as well.
The difference being the kalar in Yakhine are already marginalized by their poverty related disadvantages as well as practices and other differences among the other Yakhines.
The resulting persecutions of, kalar and others fighting over scraps, by the SPDC is used as another example of SPDC atrociousness.
There are numerous articles available for those who really care. Especially by the HR entities in the west who care to know nothing of Myanmar history. Some in post #4.
Knowing the useless careless sanctions as the cause, only by making the kalar as ‘the very original inhabitants’ as ‘the majority Yakhine Lu Myo’ can this persecution be used against SPDC as legitimate anti ethnic minority.
The struggles among the kalar and the rest of Yakhne as among any ethnic groups, as in present ongoing war has always been over economic issue.
Only after the west insisted and injected race as an issue on kalar in Yakhine as Rohingyas, a legitimate ethnic group, does this present faux nationalism induced animosity become an issue.
Therefore making all these vile, genocidal posts in this article an issue nonplus other than “absolutely out of context and irrelevant”.
Mr Damage@4: sure, the King’s “good intention” cannot be faulted – because there is a law against “faulting” the King for anything – for which one can go to prison for 15 years.
The principle should be, if the King wishes to involve himself in water management, he must be able to be HELD ACCOUNTABLE for what he says and does.
It is not currently possible to hold the King accountable for anything he says or does because of Article 112 and the general “culture of absolutism” in Thailand, which silences any public criticism of the monarchy.
Apart from water management, none of the 2000+ “royal projects” should be considered successful (as promoted in the royalist propaganda) while such accountability is lacking.
In fact, NONE of the activities of the entire royal family can rationally be judged to be beneficial to the country while there is no possibility to freely evaluate these activities. One can only evaluate something if you are allowed to criticize it should it be found to be faulty.
In considering the future of the Thai monarchy, like all other institutions, it must be judged to be of benefit to the country. Hence the argument for the abolition of 112, so Thais can freely and openly judge the value of the monarchy to Thailand.
I’m truly amazed by how these pro-rohingya and journalists painting the whole rohingya issue. Neo-Fascist ? Racist ? Potential Genocide ?
Seriously I myself is a Myanmar born Chinese and have a lot of Bamar(burman), Indian and other Myanmar ethnic friends (shan, kayin, kachin, rakkine, mon). Different religious believes: buddhist, christian, muslims and hindus .. all sorts. We debate, argue about races, traditions and religions (have to admit sometimes even insult each other) but hatred? NO. We lived/grew up harmoniously …
Lets face it. With over 87% of population is Buddhists, Myanmar culture/customs are mainly based on Buddhist believes and teachings. Its all about love and respect. These pro-rohingya articles been “selectively highlighting” racist and hatred comments from facebook campaign and trying to make it look like whole rakkine and bamar are the bad guys. I’m not taking anyone’s side here. Of course there are a few immature, irresponsible people, who loves to discriminate and insult other race/religion. But these people do not represent the whole campaign. I’d like to ask how many percentages out of all the comments? And yes, there is no option to click dislike on facebook comment. Don’t forget Myanmar is a few months old democratic nation and most of the people don’t even know how wrong it is to discriminate on skin color, believes, race and sexual orientation. Even centuries old democratic nations still have discriminations, you can’t blame the whole campaign for a few bad eggs.
I’m not anti-rohingya. But after following both sides news and articles, I personally doubt the true intentions behind “rohingyas movement”, i.e. “to be accepted as one of native Myanmar Ethic group” and I’m oppose to this. I’m not against granting citizenship to “some” of these people as they have been living in Myanmar for generations like me. But as Myanmar citizen, I do not welcome influx of any foreigners illegally and not living harmoniously.
This leads to the topic of living harmoniously. If you move to another country you have to be able to accept and regard their culture and norms. There is a saying in burmese “Guest must not insult the host”. The historical facts pointed out that there had been many occasions where these “rohingyas” committed Genocides, Targeted Rapes and Religious insults and attacks against Rakkines. And I myself surprisingly found some websites purely dedicated to such things. These are an act of terrorism.
Its quite to the contrary to what many of foreign journalists trying to make the whole situation look like. There’s never been a Single genocide or Targeted Rape against “Rohingyas”, that’s the fact! They’ve been frowned upon? Yes! Religious Insults? Some responded it, only when they provoked or attack on Buddhism.
Those illegal immigrants were deported just like every other country in the world. You can’t single handedly blame Myanmar for this, even Muslim countries like Malaysia and Indonesia cannot accept them as refugees anymore. We’ve done enough taking them in as refugees. We have our own issues.
I’m sure there are many good “rohingyas” but the whole “Pro-Rohingya Campaign” smells fishy and I’m against it. And as a democratic nation, WE Myanmar nationals have the right to decide whether they have to right to become native race or not. After all the very foundation of the democracy is majority rules!
[…] is ‘centrist’, PAS is ‘moderate’, DAP is ‘centre-left’), was hosted by the Australian National University (or ANU), which earlier this year also gave Petra the same platform to launch his pasar malam sale […]
Many probably know that Denis D. Gray lent his talents at hagiography when functioning as editor-in-chief of “The King of Thailand in World Focus”, a book-length puff piece. He’s a dues-paying monarchy junkie of long-standing repute.
As for matters hydro, perhaps Dear Father’s interest in water should have remained limited to yachting.
Ineptocracy – a definition
Ineptocracy (in-ep-toc’-ra-cy) – a system of government where the least capable to lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a diminishing number of producers.
Could ineptocracy be an apt description of Yingluck’s government?
In today’s borderless world, where all people interact on so many fronts, there must be freedom of belief and preaching the concepts of all religions should be the norm. It is up to the various religious groups to strengthen the faith of their own adherents and not to impose restrictive laws and rules upon themselves and others.
Those advocating anti-apostasy and anti-proselytisation laws are definitely not in sync with modern realities and they will find themselves going around in vicious circles without finding the peace which their religion offers.
It is indeed a very sensitive and emotive issue. The plight of the boatpeople in Thai waters in February 2009 kicked off the perennial debate once more in The Irrawaddy.
Interestingly The Muslim “Rohingya” of Burma by Martin Smith 1995, not the most favourable account, was posted October 2006 by the Arakan Rohingya National Organisation.
As a first fact I would like to point out, I’d like to mention that the author of this article didn’t describe the main theme of this Campaign, refusal for Illegal Immigrants.
What we described so far is the fact that we are denying their citizenship status, which can be followed by religious conflicts and armed forces to claim their own state.
To analyze Burmese Politics critically, you all need to consider all situations in side Burma. As a fact you’ve just excerpted, 135 sub-ethnic groups in a state with nearly all armed forces are not in an easy-to-control stage. So, if militants in a suspicious relation with Al-Queda (Muslim Extremists) would bring a lot of negative impacts to Burma rather than positive gains.
I really doubt the agenda of this author because in this article, harsh comments and imprudent expressions regarding Racism, anti-Muslim and oppression based descriptions were mainly cited. Why didn’t you put academic rejections on this issue? We did argue why Rohingyas should not be accepted with logical reasons.
I would like to request the author to be professional. Thank you.
There is indeed a strong element of racism in the Burmese identity – they seem to hate absolutely everyone, Indians, Chinese, Thais, the lot. One begins to understand why minority groups such as the Karen and Shan and Kachin are less than enthused about the Bama-dominated NLDP.
Dear Vikas – I do not mean that when someone convert to other faith, the person is a bad person. Please do not take that to your heart if you feel that my writing point to that direction. that was not my intention. Peace.
To Stephen Wiedemann: check out the writings of L.A.Briunzeel, Ian Calder, and others, who are hydrologists. They argue the connection between deforestation and flooding might appear to be common sense, but there are four important controlling factors that are less visible: (i) the amount of rain (see previous posting to this site); (ii) the absorbptive capacity of soil whether it is covered by trees or not (ie compacting soil increases run off; whereas non-compaced soil can be just as absorbing as soil under forest, if not more so); (iii) the amount of paving or compacting of roads and surfaces in basins; (iv) basin morphometry (ie the ways tributaries all connect to one big river quickly). In Thailand, the Chao Phraya and associated basins are really connected to one end point (ie morphometry plays a role); soil compaction and paving is increasing all the time (but it is difficult to measure); and forest cover has increased (if you include plantations). The problem with blaming deforestation is that it allows the government to use this argument to increase the number of plantations. But this does not necessarily increase the absorption of water: indeed Calder’s work (not in Thailand) suggests plantation forestry can *increase* runoff and compaction.
The king has been into this for 40 years with thousand of projects implimented, and still we have drought and flood every year. Last year the governer of Had Yai was bragging about the royal projects that should help with Had Yai chronic flood, a couple of months later, the city was flooded anyway. Not to mention the reservior in Pak Panang in Nakorn Ratchasrima province which turn out to be one of the largest ecological disaster. If this is not a total failure then I dont know what is. I’m not too sure if the king is really trying or if it is just another propaganda.
It seems that there are definitely 2 sides of the story here, very relevant shares on the argument for logging having an impact on severe flooding, particularly if you fill out the equation with grasslands, wetlands etc. The question may come to what size of development (and destruction) is required to have a signficant impact. And then more questions come up. In the English press in Thailand the role of development has been referred to as an important factor, particularly when you have canals built over, waterways redirected or built over, waterrsheds being built over. So perhaps the discussion needs to be more focused on development issues, and sustainability issues. Interesting discussion in the context of climate change and recessions that could lead to depressions.
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BBC under fire on Rohingyas
I’m sure racists and bigots have no logical brain and that’s why they can be racists. Here are some facts for all the bigots:
1) U Nu’s government, the only democratically elected government that ran the country after the independent, recognized us as “Rohingya” and “ethnic of Arakan” and “citizens” of Burma.
2) Burmese encyclopedia or “Myanmar Swezon-kyann” was NOT written by any Kallar or Taliban or any of your fantasized enemy–it was written by Burmese historian and approved by the Burmese government. Go and read page 90 of Volume 9 and educate yourself about Rohingya.
3) Go and read the textbook “Geography for Std. 9th and 10th, printed in 1978, printed press 361 Pyay Rd. Sarbay Viman, on page 86 map Mayu area was clearly marked as “Rohingya’s dwelling place”. It was printed in Ne Win’s era.
4) Arakanese DOES NOT mean Rakhaing nor Buddhists. Arakanese simply means all the peoples of Arakan regardless of race or religion. That includes Rakhaing (Mogh), Rohingya, Chakma (Daing-nak), Mro, etc. There are Buddhists, Muslims, Hindus, Christians, Animists, and Atheists in Arakan.
5) Arakan was colonized and destroyed by the Burmese king Bo Dow Maung Wane–NOT by Muslims. In fact Muslims helped reinstalled the dethrone king Naramik Hla.
6) Rakhaing Phra was forcefully taken away by the Burman king….Muslim should not be blame for it.
You are a bunch of bigots and ignorant, and government backed thugs. Go and learn the real facts before barking nonsense.
BBC under fire on Rohingyas
This is the perfect example, of white people knowingly play the race card, by proxy (think Crusoe).
Thus driving the “RHETORIC” out of hand.
KALAR; A term generally referred to persons of Indian/Dravidian descent in Myanmar. There are sub divisions among the kalar people.
Those who ID themselves as per religion, believes, languages or ethnic origins. Very few that does not fall under this descriptions. Sikh is one of the group. Anyone with a Dravidian feature and dark skin is usually called a ‘kalar’. This apply even to pure blooded Bamar or any other ethnic sons and to a certain extend daughters who share the dark skin and Dravidian feature. They are usually referred endearingly as kalar ley ( little kalar) or kalamart Ley (Female gender).
Anyone with any correct motivation can easily find out these basic facts.
The kalar people in Yakhine state get the shortest ends of the the sanctions/deprivation, 2┬║ to the nature:
“the most different minority get the worst deal”.
This period transpired among the kalar in other states such as Shan and Maulamyein etc as well.
The difference being the kalar in Yakhine are already marginalized by their poverty related disadvantages as well as practices and other differences among the other Yakhines.
The resulting persecutions of, kalar and others fighting over scraps, by the SPDC is used as another example of SPDC atrociousness.
There are numerous articles available for those who really care. Especially by the HR entities in the west who care to know nothing of Myanmar history. Some in post #4.
Knowing the useless careless sanctions as the cause, only by making the kalar as ‘the very original inhabitants’ as ‘the majority Yakhine Lu Myo’ can this persecution be used against SPDC as legitimate anti ethnic minority.
The struggles among the kalar and the rest of Yakhne as among any ethnic groups, as in present ongoing war has always been over economic issue.
Only after the west insisted and injected race as an issue on kalar in Yakhine as Rohingyas, a legitimate ethnic group, does this present faux nationalism induced animosity become an issue.
Therefore making all these vile, genocidal posts in this article an issue nonplus other than “absolutely out of context and irrelevant”.
Royal politics and the floods
Mr Damage@4: sure, the King’s “good intention” cannot be faulted – because there is a law against “faulting” the King for anything – for which one can go to prison for 15 years.
The principle should be, if the King wishes to involve himself in water management, he must be able to be HELD ACCOUNTABLE for what he says and does.
It is not currently possible to hold the King accountable for anything he says or does because of Article 112 and the general “culture of absolutism” in Thailand, which silences any public criticism of the monarchy.
Apart from water management, none of the 2000+ “royal projects” should be considered successful (as promoted in the royalist propaganda) while such accountability is lacking.
In fact, NONE of the activities of the entire royal family can rationally be judged to be beneficial to the country while there is no possibility to freely evaluate these activities. One can only evaluate something if you are allowed to criticize it should it be found to be faulty.
In considering the future of the Thai monarchy, like all other institutions, it must be judged to be of benefit to the country. Hence the argument for the abolition of 112, so Thais can freely and openly judge the value of the monarchy to Thailand.
BBC under fire on Rohingyas
I’m truly amazed by how these pro-rohingya and journalists painting the whole rohingya issue. Neo-Fascist ? Racist ? Potential Genocide ?
Seriously I myself is a Myanmar born Chinese and have a lot of Bamar(burman), Indian and other Myanmar ethnic friends (shan, kayin, kachin, rakkine, mon). Different religious believes: buddhist, christian, muslims and hindus .. all sorts. We debate, argue about races, traditions and religions (have to admit sometimes even insult each other) but hatred? NO. We lived/grew up harmoniously …
Lets face it. With over 87% of population is Buddhists, Myanmar culture/customs are mainly based on Buddhist believes and teachings. Its all about love and respect. These pro-rohingya articles been “selectively highlighting” racist and hatred comments from facebook campaign and trying to make it look like whole rakkine and bamar are the bad guys. I’m not taking anyone’s side here. Of course there are a few immature, irresponsible people, who loves to discriminate and insult other race/religion. But these people do not represent the whole campaign. I’d like to ask how many percentages out of all the comments? And yes, there is no option to click dislike on facebook comment. Don’t forget Myanmar is a few months old democratic nation and most of the people don’t even know how wrong it is to discriminate on skin color, believes, race and sexual orientation. Even centuries old democratic nations still have discriminations, you can’t blame the whole campaign for a few bad eggs.
I’m not anti-rohingya. But after following both sides news and articles, I personally doubt the true intentions behind “rohingyas movement”, i.e. “to be accepted as one of native Myanmar Ethic group” and I’m oppose to this. I’m not against granting citizenship to “some” of these people as they have been living in Myanmar for generations like me. But as Myanmar citizen, I do not welcome influx of any foreigners illegally and not living harmoniously.
This leads to the topic of living harmoniously. If you move to another country you have to be able to accept and regard their culture and norms. There is a saying in burmese “Guest must not insult the host”. The historical facts pointed out that there had been many occasions where these “rohingyas” committed Genocides, Targeted Rapes and Religious insults and attacks against Rakkines. And I myself surprisingly found some websites purely dedicated to such things. These are an act of terrorism.
Its quite to the contrary to what many of foreign journalists trying to make the whole situation look like. There’s never been a Single genocide or Targeted Rape against “Rohingyas”, that’s the fact! They’ve been frowned upon? Yes! Religious Insults? Some responded it, only when they provoked or attack on Buddhism.
Those illegal immigrants were deported just like every other country in the world. You can’t single handedly blame Myanmar for this, even Muslim countries like Malaysia and Indonesia cannot accept them as refugees anymore. We’ve done enough taking them in as refugees. We have our own issues.
I’m sure there are many good “rohingyas” but the whole “Pro-Rohingya Campaign” smells fishy and I’m against it. And as a democratic nation, WE Myanmar nationals have the right to decide whether they have to right to become native race or not. After all the very foundation of the democracy is majority rules!
Moving forward from racial tensions in Malaysia
[…] is ‘centrist’, PAS is ‘moderate’, DAP is ‘centre-left’), was hosted by the Australian National University (or ANU), which earlier this year also gave Petra the same platform to launch his pasar malam sale […]
Managing people harder than managing water
Vichai # 24
Or, any other previous government for a very long time eh Vichai?
But, this constant harping on about this or that government, or this or that PM is not the only issue.
Anyone care to consider the rank ineptitude of the civil servants and government experts in this current crisis or any other for that matter?
You know, those simple folk actually responsible for implementing the law and making policy work.
Royal politics and the floods
Many probably know that Denis D. Gray lent his talents at hagiography when functioning as editor-in-chief of “The King of Thailand in World Focus”, a book-length puff piece. He’s a dues-paying monarchy junkie of long-standing repute.
As for matters hydro, perhaps Dear Father’s interest in water should have remained limited to yachting.
Royal politics and the floods
Chris B – 6
Apologized, it was Nokorn Sri Tammarath.
Royal politics and the floods
@chris b
Pretty certain Tarrin meant to say Nakhon Si Thammarat. I don’t know anything about the reservoir at Pak Panang though.
Managing people harder than managing water
Ineptocracy – a definition
Ineptocracy (in-ep-toc’-ra-cy) – a system of government where the least capable to lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a diminishing number of producers.
Could ineptocracy be an apt description of Yingluck’s government?
Royal politics and the floods
Tarrin @ 5
I’ve not heard of Pak Panang in Nakhon Ratchasima. Can you give more details about exactly where it is and what it was all about?
Malaysian Muslims responses to conversion
In today’s borderless world, where all people interact on so many fronts, there must be freedom of belief and preaching the concepts of all religions should be the norm. It is up to the various religious groups to strengthen the faith of their own adherents and not to impose restrictive laws and rules upon themselves and others.
Those advocating anti-apostasy and anti-proselytisation laws are definitely not in sync with modern realities and they will find themselves going around in vicious circles without finding the peace which their religion offers.
And that is the truth of the matter.
BBC under fire on Rohingyas
Thank you Anna Jones …you are the real hero in this world .
Anno Jones you deserve the title Rohingya Princess . Our prayer always with you and your family .
The racists are belongs to those evil tribes who used to eat human , they are modern cannibals .
BBC under fire on Rohingyas
It is indeed a very sensitive and emotive issue. The plight of the boatpeople in Thai waters in February 2009 kicked off the perennial debate once more in The Irrawaddy.
Burma Insists Rohingyas are ‘Bengalis’
Skin Color and Prejudice Endangers the Rohingya
Who are the Rohingya?
A Historian Looks at the Rohingya October 2009
Interestingly The Muslim “Rohingya” of Burma by Martin Smith 1995, not the most favourable account, was posted October 2006 by the Arakan Rohingya National Organisation.
BBC under fire on Rohingyas
As a first fact I would like to point out, I’d like to mention that the author of this article didn’t describe the main theme of this Campaign, refusal for Illegal Immigrants.
What we described so far is the fact that we are denying their citizenship status, which can be followed by religious conflicts and armed forces to claim their own state.
To analyze Burmese Politics critically, you all need to consider all situations in side Burma. As a fact you’ve just excerpted, 135 sub-ethnic groups in a state with nearly all armed forces are not in an easy-to-control stage. So, if militants in a suspicious relation with Al-Queda (Muslim Extremists) would bring a lot of negative impacts to Burma rather than positive gains.
I really doubt the agenda of this author because in this article, harsh comments and imprudent expressions regarding Racism, anti-Muslim and oppression based descriptions were mainly cited. Why didn’t you put academic rejections on this issue? We did argue why Rohingyas should not be accepted with logical reasons.
I would like to request the author to be professional. Thank you.
BBC under fire on Rohingyas
There is indeed a strong element of racism in the Burmese identity – they seem to hate absolutely everyone, Indians, Chinese, Thais, the lot. One begins to understand why minority groups such as the Karen and Shan and Kachin are less than enthused about the Bama-dominated NLDP.
Malaysian Muslims responses to conversion
Dear Vikas – I do not mean that when someone convert to other faith, the person is a bad person. Please do not take that to your heart if you feel that my writing point to that direction. that was not my intention. Peace.
Has forest clearing contributed to Thailand’s floods?
To Stephen Wiedemann: check out the writings of L.A.Briunzeel, Ian Calder, and others, who are hydrologists. They argue the connection between deforestation and flooding might appear to be common sense, but there are four important controlling factors that are less visible: (i) the amount of rain (see previous posting to this site); (ii) the absorbptive capacity of soil whether it is covered by trees or not (ie compacting soil increases run off; whereas non-compaced soil can be just as absorbing as soil under forest, if not more so); (iii) the amount of paving or compacting of roads and surfaces in basins; (iv) basin morphometry (ie the ways tributaries all connect to one big river quickly). In Thailand, the Chao Phraya and associated basins are really connected to one end point (ie morphometry plays a role); soil compaction and paving is increasing all the time (but it is difficult to measure); and forest cover has increased (if you include plantations). The problem with blaming deforestation is that it allows the government to use this argument to increase the number of plantations. But this does not necessarily increase the absorption of water: indeed Calder’s work (not in Thailand) suggests plantation forestry can *increase* runoff and compaction.
Royal politics and the floods
The king has been into this for 40 years with thousand of projects implimented, and still we have drought and flood every year. Last year the governer of Had Yai was bragging about the royal projects that should help with Had Yai chronic flood, a couple of months later, the city was flooded anyway. Not to mention the reservior in Pak Panang in Nakorn Ratchasrima province which turn out to be one of the largest ecological disaster. If this is not a total failure then I dont know what is. I’m not too sure if the king is really trying or if it is just another propaganda.
Has forest clearing contributed to Thailand’s floods?
It seems that there are definitely 2 sides of the story here, very relevant shares on the argument for logging having an impact on severe flooding, particularly if you fill out the equation with grasslands, wetlands etc. The question may come to what size of development (and destruction) is required to have a signficant impact. And then more questions come up. In the English press in Thailand the role of development has been referred to as an important factor, particularly when you have canals built over, waterways redirected or built over, waterrsheds being built over. So perhaps the discussion needs to be more focused on development issues, and sustainability issues. Interesting discussion in the context of climate change and recessions that could lead to depressions.