question:
Thailand gold reserves are around 100 Tones. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold_reserve
As most countries they deposit gran part of heir gold at the United States Bullion Depository, commonly called Fort Knox.
Could the Liquidator confiscate those deposits once the USA court is completed and won by Walter Bau.
One is reminded of the US ambassador’s comment about Thaksin “investing in crown prince futures”. What are the odds on King Rama X appointing Thaksin chief privy counsellor?
If only everyone stopped vilifying and demonizing ‘the present entity’, eh?
Blame the ubiquitous cameras, why don’t you, for putting a mirror up to things?
Mirror, mirror on the wall, who’s the baddest of them all?
And you still can’t tell the difference between patriotism and chauvinism.
The Bangkok Post reports the CP is paying the bond to release the Boeing 737 in Germany and:
The Crown prince hoped the payment of the bond would help end the legal dispute between the Thai government and German construction company Walter Bau AG over revenue sharing from toll fees on the Don Muang Tollway. … The Crown Prince did not wish to be involved in the dispute, and wanted it to be settled quickly and smoothly ….
The Nation reports:
The Crown Prince will use his personal funds to settle the dispute involving a German firm and the impounding of his personal jet in Germany,
The payment will not accomplish any of these goals. It will only allow the plane to be released. The arbitration award remains unpaid and the issue of who owns the 737 remains unresolved and subject to further litigation in Germany.
For the CP to get his money back, he or the Thai government still has to prove to the German court that the CP, not Thailand, owns the plane. The issue will remain alive and presumably will continue to be discussed in the media.
Also, Thailand’s obligation to Walter Bau remains unpaid and a controversial issue between the two countries.
So nothing has changed except the plane will no longer be ground-bound in Munich.
I am a community worker I have known this so called war criminal for four weeks, he is a fraud, he told me he was a serving member of the Australian Federal Police, and A.S.I.O. I believe this person is a member of Burmese military intelligence not as he claimed back in 1988 but now with instructions to cause as much damage to the Burmese democracy movement in Australia, if true Htoo Htoo Han is equally guilty of crimes against humanity like his master Thitsaphout Than Shwe .
I personally think you are all mistaken, (sure 210+ comments), this is just Thailand exporting their lovable nak leng culture to the world.Thaksin looks to be the nak leng in this case and sure it hasn’t gone wonderfully well this first attempt at showing the international audience the true depth of Thai culture, the one beyond the smile but before the threats. It’s most notable victim, however, didn’t turn out to be some forgettable foreign investor but our beloved CP.
Now some may think that Abhisit and Kasit haven’t performed at their very best in their dying hour. and that they appear to have inflamed and bungled the whole affair.I feel this is far from the truth, they are merely demonstrating that they believe that the relationship between the CP and Thaksin is still extremely close and they are only endeavouring to poke a stick into that shining wheel with their last gasp.
Not allowing the toll-way to raise it’s prices and thereby stiffing the company into bankruptcy must have played well with both the little and big end of town.A win win for rich and poor alike and honour to a true nak leng. Now, who ended up with the toll-way when the dust settled?
Really, Kasit was a Foreign Minister? It just seems so unreal.
Amazing Thailand!
The Nation reports a fascinating turn of events in that the CP, who previously urged the government not to pay the security deposit and is not noted for his personal largesse or deep pockets, has decided to pay the security deposit himself. I sense the magic hand of Mr T, who has miraculously been declared persona grata again in Germany just in the nick of time. Helping out with petty cash of 20 million euros behind the scenes is a brilliant way of giving the CP face and defusing a difficult situation for the incoming FM.
(CT#206) What makes you think the letter is censored (846 words from “Dear Friends’ to ‘We remain faithfully yours’, yes? ) and for that matter, what makes you think it is authentic?
Re: the real BP’s comment “the Crown Prince wants the issue resolved as the issue has been escalating and he feels that the case is having an impact on his reputation.”
One point I omitted to mention about Mann’s column is his suggestion that the German submarine deal would be scuttled.
If this were to happen because of the involvement of the Crown Prince in the matter surely this would redeem him in the eyes of many of his critics.
My comment about “bug business” was of course mistyped. My attack was aimed at more than the pesticide industry.
PS – I hope they do “sink the German submarine contract”! Why the Royal Thai Navy wants to buy these old, obsolete submarines is beyond my comprehension. As HMK has pointed out, if the average depth of the Gulf of Siam is only 15 m, the Thai Navy really can’t make good strategic use of them, and they are a bad deal for the Thai people and the rest of us taxpayers.
Re Sam @ 204
I get your point, but I fundamentally disagree with it. There has been no convincing proof presented that the “innocent plane” you mention belongs to the Crown Prince. I remained convinced that the actual ownership remains with the RTAF, and that the Prince merely has (had) use of it. If this is the case, and I believe the facts will eventually emerge to prove that no transfer of ownership ever actually occurred, then the the plane is a legititmate seizure target and the impounding of the plane by the court was a proper measure. Whether it enflames the tempers of the royalists is irrelevant to the matter before the court. There is no “second wrong” here as you contend, merely some legitimate arm twisting by a creditor upon a deadbeat debtor.
This commentary continues to amuse more so than inform. Take Sam’s wonderful rant in response to our favourite satirical column by not-the-editor Mann and his characterization of O as an “innocent party”. Not what one usually hears around. Also the news that “CP will stump up with the bond money” comes as a worry. Will the prices rise at 7-Eleven to compensate or will the benefactor who paid the gambling debts come to the party?
The “my thumbs down” vs. “Your thumbs up” adds to the fun. I wonder how proud I should be for scoring 18 thumbs down (comment 168) for calling all parties crooks and suggesting the plane be forfeited and no payment be made?
Thanks to Pete S (171) for his thoughtful and highly thumbs-uped response. I do think, however, this indicates a need for the readership to read more widely. Just pick up any of Noam Chomsky’s political writings or talks on youtube.com to see that highway building is the free world’s version of social engineering and that bug business is all about privatizing profits and socializing costs.
I also suggest when it comes to the debt issue readers consider the strong movement for cancelling 3rd World Debt, which even gets recognition by the likes of Tony Blair.
Frank Anderson may be right about the meanness of the Thai’s as a motive for non payment of the tollway debt, however a case can be made that evil debts like this should not be paid, just as say demanding the Iraqis pay for Saddam’s chandeliers. For I do maintain that ignoring rail development while the Americans taught the country to build super highways was evil. But then I am not a mate of Banharn the super highway builder of Supanburi.
Perhaps Andrew might like to invite a guest to write about Thailand and 3rd World debt? And perhaps in the context of how Thailand has been a champion for the poor in need of cheap drugs.
Entirely agree with the marketing point, not only ‘democratisation’ but ‘revolutionary chic’ and all that, and cyberwarfare divisions. Look at the recent example of the phone hacking saga by Rupert Murdoch’s News International in the UK. And that’s just a media empire, not the state security apparatus.
They do however want to sell and make profits in as large a market as they can, and digital technology inevitably enhances the efficacy and potential success of popular networking and struggles around the world as one of the unintended consequences. Satellite TV and mobile phones being widespread in Burma is a case in point. It remains a double edged sword.
It has just come to my attention that the Vivacharawongse Family (Yuvathida who is the second wife of Prince V and her four sons) has recently released their open letter, telling us what they are doing. Apparently the second son of Prince V is now a lawyer in the US, and the first & fourth sons are also pursuing their legal studies to be admitted. The third one is pursuing a degree in medicine. He also has health problems.
I have seen the censored version of the letter, is there anyone who knows where to look for the ‘uncensored version’?
As I have said from the beginning, “Two wrongs don’t make a right!”
So much of the commentary herein focuses on the ‘wrongs’ of the Thai position, but ignore the WRONGFUL, crude and insulting way the Germans have gone about ‘righting their perceived wrong.’
Note the inflamed response to the German ‘wrong approach’ from Bangkok Post editor Thirasant Mann:
”…Thai prestige is insulted _ and insulted in such a way as to shock the very core of our being.”
“…this uber ugly, crass beyond crudity, highly indecent and morally reprehensible action by the deutsche government in striking at an institution which they fully know we highly revere…”
“…instead of discussing the legal merits of the case, our government should have taken immediate steps to retrieve the plane.” German actions have created “…animus which will reap them the whirlwind in future relations,” beginning with, Thirasant demanded, ‘sinking the German submarine contract.’
Now ask yourself, ‘Is there something wrong with the legally ‘self-righteous’ way the Germans have acted, when it produces such a counter-productive response?’
Bau German liquidators have needlessly insulted a ‘sacred’ Thai institution having nothing to do with the suit. This wrongful victimization of a sacred innocent party was intentionally planned by the Germans to be provocative. Well, as we see from the about, it has worked.
But victimizing an innocent party calls for a counter-response of ‘righting this new wrong,’ NOT righting the old perceived debt wrong. Instead, a new grievance has been created, that must now be righted. And, so it goes, ever increasing victimization going round and round in a self reinforcing continuous cycle of perceived injustice.
The German’s feel victimized by the Thais and demand ‘justice’. But the wrongful way the Germans seek their justice, victimizes the Thais in a new way, which the Thais see as a new German injustice that must be punished in order to gain justice.
So now what? The Thai’s to gain justice cancel the German Sub contract(?), another party having nothing to do with the original debt injustice, but now turned into a new innocent German victim, which the Germans will react to by demanding that this new perceived injustice be punished in the name of justice….
And, so it goes, ever spinning in a reinforcing circle of abuse, victimization, and escalating demands for justice creating new innocent victims on the way to spinning out of control.
Or, as I’ve been saying all along, “Two wrongs don’t make a right!”
It’s in German hands to stop this endless cycle now, before it truly gets out of hand. They should take their finger out of the Thai eye and release the innocent plane and return the issue to the original debt injustice, rather than face the no-win new injustice reaction, the Germans have created by insulting a sacred Thai institution.
That is, if the Germans are mature, civilized and pragmatic enough to let go of that delicious and addictive barbaric desire for ‘vengeance at all costs’, no matter how self destructive it may be.
Dan ajarn // Jul 30, 2011 at 3:31 am
I’m skeptical when the President of the German-Thai Chamber of Commerce, with personal ongoing business interests in Thailand probably dependent on his good relations with Thai government officials, says the following to a Bangkok Post Reporter.
Interesting that you don’t believe what a real businessman, doing real business in Thailand, says about the impact of this case on the perception of the international business community.
You say that as apparently an “ajarn”, which gives you what insight into the international business community and its perception of doing business In Thailand? Or is your comment more about your opinion of Thailand and the need to disparage anyone that has a different view?
Also interesting that my post on what a real businessman thinks about doing business in Thailand got 6 thumbs down and your post on what an English teacher thinks about it got 6 thumbs up.
As a wishy-washy liberal I assure you it is possible to plausibly combine “Yellow Moron” with “Red-Shirt Thug” in a single sentence. I come across both quite frequently at the extremes of conversation. You also meet a lot of nice folks in the middle of whom a percentage will gravitate to the corners depending on
a) the group they are with
b) the amount of alcohol flowing
c) the particular topic of conversation. (there are reds who want a Thai Preah Vihear and yellows who want a free tablet PC)
Is the idea that the societies formerly colonized by Western nations exhibit traits more easily recognized as, for instance, ‘intellectualism’ by members of Western elites?
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Plane audacity in Thai dispute
question:
Thailand gold reserves are around 100 Tones.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold_reserve
As most countries they deposit gran part of heir gold at the United States Bullion Depository, commonly called Fort Knox.
Could the Liquidator confiscate those deposits once the USA court is completed and won by Walter Bau.
Plane audacity in Thai dispute
Portman #212
One is reminded of the US ambassador’s comment about Thaksin “investing in crown prince futures”. What are the odds on King Rama X appointing Thaksin chief privy counsellor?
Taking photos in Burma
plan B,
If only everyone stopped vilifying and demonizing ‘the present entity’, eh?
Blame the ubiquitous cameras, why don’t you, for putting a mirror up to things?
Mirror, mirror on the wall, who’s the baddest of them all?
And you still can’t tell the difference between patriotism and chauvinism.
Plane audacity in Thai dispute
@Superanonymous (#211)
I do not have any comment about its authenticity until I see the letter itself in full. Thanks.
Plane audacity in Thai dispute
The Bangkok Post reports the CP is paying the bond to release the Boeing 737 in Germany and:
The Nation reports:
The payment will not accomplish any of these goals. It will only allow the plane to be released. The arbitration award remains unpaid and the issue of who owns the 737 remains unresolved and subject to further litigation in Germany.
For the CP to get his money back, he or the Thai government still has to prove to the German court that the CP, not Thailand, owns the plane. The issue will remain alive and presumably will continue to be discussed in the media.
Also, Thailand’s obligation to Walter Bau remains unpaid and a controversial issue between the two countries.
So nothing has changed except the plane will no longer be ground-bound in Munich.
Htoo Htoo Han the confessor
I am a community worker I have known this so called war criminal for four weeks, he is a fraud, he told me he was a serving member of the Australian Federal Police, and A.S.I.O. I believe this person is a member of Burmese military intelligence not as he claimed back in 1988 but now with instructions to cause as much damage to the Burmese democracy movement in Australia, if true Htoo Htoo Han is equally guilty of crimes against humanity like his master Thitsaphout Than Shwe .
Plane audacity in Thai dispute
I personally think you are all mistaken, (sure 210+ comments), this is just Thailand exporting their lovable nak leng culture to the world.Thaksin looks to be the nak leng in this case and sure it hasn’t gone wonderfully well this first attempt at showing the international audience the true depth of Thai culture, the one beyond the smile but before the threats. It’s most notable victim, however, didn’t turn out to be some forgettable foreign investor but our beloved CP.
Now some may think that Abhisit and Kasit haven’t performed at their very best in their dying hour. and that they appear to have inflamed and bungled the whole affair.I feel this is far from the truth, they are merely demonstrating that they believe that the relationship between the CP and Thaksin is still extremely close and they are only endeavouring to poke a stick into that shining wheel with their last gasp.
Not allowing the toll-way to raise it’s prices and thereby stiffing the company into bankruptcy must have played well with both the little and big end of town.A win win for rich and poor alike and honour to a true nak leng. Now, who ended up with the toll-way when the dust settled?
Really, Kasit was a Foreign Minister? It just seems so unreal.
Amazing Thailand!
Plane audacity in Thai dispute
The Nation reports a fascinating turn of events in that the CP, who previously urged the government not to pay the security deposit and is not noted for his personal largesse or deep pockets, has decided to pay the security deposit himself. I sense the magic hand of Mr T, who has miraculously been declared persona grata again in Germany just in the nick of time. Helping out with petty cash of 20 million euros behind the scenes is a brilliant way of giving the CP face and defusing a difficult situation for the incoming FM.
Next stop Pra Viharn. Can’t wait.
Plane audacity in Thai dispute
(CT#206) What makes you think the letter is censored (846 words from “Dear Friends’ to ‘We remain faithfully yours’, yes? ) and for that matter, what makes you think it is authentic?
Plane audacity in Thai dispute
Re: the real BP’s comment “the Crown Prince wants the issue resolved as the issue has been escalating and he feels that the case is having an impact on his reputation.”
One point I omitted to mention about Mann’s column is his suggestion that the German submarine deal would be scuttled.
If this were to happen because of the involvement of the Crown Prince in the matter surely this would redeem him in the eyes of many of his critics.
My comment about “bug business” was of course mistyped. My attack was aimed at more than the pesticide industry.
Plane audacity in Thai dispute
PS – I hope they do “sink the German submarine contract”! Why the Royal Thai Navy wants to buy these old, obsolete submarines is beyond my comprehension. As HMK has pointed out, if the average depth of the Gulf of Siam is only 15 m, the Thai Navy really can’t make good strategic use of them, and they are a bad deal for the Thai people and the rest of us taxpayers.
Plane audacity in Thai dispute
Re Sam @ 204
I get your point, but I fundamentally disagree with it. There has been no convincing proof presented that the “innocent plane” you mention belongs to the Crown Prince. I remained convinced that the actual ownership remains with the RTAF, and that the Prince merely has (had) use of it. If this is the case, and I believe the facts will eventually emerge to prove that no transfer of ownership ever actually occurred, then the the plane is a legititmate seizure target and the impounding of the plane by the court was a proper measure. Whether it enflames the tempers of the royalists is irrelevant to the matter before the court. There is no “second wrong” here as you contend, merely some legitimate arm twisting by a creditor upon a deadbeat debtor.
Plane audacity in Thai dispute
This commentary continues to amuse more so than inform. Take Sam’s wonderful rant in response to our favourite satirical column by not-the-editor Mann and his characterization of O as an “innocent party”. Not what one usually hears around. Also the news that “CP will stump up with the bond money” comes as a worry. Will the prices rise at 7-Eleven to compensate or will the benefactor who paid the gambling debts come to the party?
The “my thumbs down” vs. “Your thumbs up” adds to the fun. I wonder how proud I should be for scoring 18 thumbs down (comment 168) for calling all parties crooks and suggesting the plane be forfeited and no payment be made?
Thanks to Pete S (171) for his thoughtful and highly thumbs-uped response. I do think, however, this indicates a need for the readership to read more widely. Just pick up any of Noam Chomsky’s political writings or talks on youtube.com to see that highway building is the free world’s version of social engineering and that bug business is all about privatizing profits and socializing costs.
I also suggest when it comes to the debt issue readers consider the strong movement for cancelling 3rd World Debt, which even gets recognition by the likes of Tony Blair.
Frank Anderson may be right about the meanness of the Thai’s as a motive for non payment of the tollway debt, however a case can be made that evil debts like this should not be paid, just as say demanding the Iraqis pay for Saddam’s chandeliers. For I do maintain that ignoring rail development while the Americans taught the country to build super highways was evil. But then I am not a mate of Banharn the super highway builder of Supanburi.
Perhaps Andrew might like to invite a guest to write about Thailand and 3rd World debt? And perhaps in the context of how Thailand has been a champion for the poor in need of cheap drugs.
Taking photos in Burma
john francis lee
Entirely agree with the marketing point, not only ‘democratisation’ but ‘revolutionary chic’ and all that, and cyberwarfare divisions. Look at the recent example of the phone hacking saga by Rupert Murdoch’s News International in the UK. And that’s just a media empire, not the state security apparatus.
They do however want to sell and make profits in as large a market as they can, and digital technology inevitably enhances the efficacy and potential success of popular networking and struggles around the world as one of the unintended consequences. Satellite TV and mobile phones being widespread in Burma is a case in point. It remains a double edged sword.
Plane audacity in Thai dispute
Allow me to go off topic a bit.
It has just come to my attention that the Vivacharawongse Family (Yuvathida who is the second wife of Prince V and her four sons) has recently released their open letter, telling us what they are doing. Apparently the second son of Prince V is now a lawyer in the US, and the first & fourth sons are also pursuing their legal studies to be admitted. The third one is pursuing a degree in medicine. He also has health problems.
I have seen the censored version of the letter, is there anyone who knows where to look for the ‘uncensored version’?
Many thanks, CT
Plane audacity in Thai dispute
Both BP’s report this morning that CP will stump up with the bond money for his plane.
http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/local/249761/prince-to-use-own-funds-to-end-dispute
http://asiancorrespondent.com/61408/thai-crown-prince-issues-statement-on-seized-boeing-737
Plane audacity in Thai dispute
As I have said from the beginning, “Two wrongs don’t make a right!”
So much of the commentary herein focuses on the ‘wrongs’ of the Thai position, but ignore the WRONGFUL, crude and insulting way the Germans have gone about ‘righting their perceived wrong.’
Note the inflamed response to the German ‘wrong approach’ from Bangkok Post editor Thirasant Mann:
”…Thai prestige is insulted _ and insulted in such a way as to shock the very core of our being.”
“…this uber ugly, crass beyond crudity, highly indecent and morally reprehensible action by the deutsche government in striking at an institution which they fully know we highly revere…”
“…instead of discussing the legal merits of the case, our government should have taken immediate steps to retrieve the plane.” German actions have created “…animus which will reap them the whirlwind in future relations,” beginning with, Thirasant demanded, ‘sinking the German submarine contract.’
http://www.bangkokpost.com/opinion/opinion/249446/damn-their-euros-save-our-pride
Now ask yourself, ‘Is there something wrong with the legally ‘self-righteous’ way the Germans have acted, when it produces such a counter-productive response?’
Bau German liquidators have needlessly insulted a ‘sacred’ Thai institution having nothing to do with the suit. This wrongful victimization of a sacred innocent party was intentionally planned by the Germans to be provocative. Well, as we see from the about, it has worked.
But victimizing an innocent party calls for a counter-response of ‘righting this new wrong,’ NOT righting the old perceived debt wrong. Instead, a new grievance has been created, that must now be righted. And, so it goes, ever increasing victimization going round and round in a self reinforcing continuous cycle of perceived injustice.
The German’s feel victimized by the Thais and demand ‘justice’. But the wrongful way the Germans seek their justice, victimizes the Thais in a new way, which the Thais see as a new German injustice that must be punished in order to gain justice.
So now what? The Thai’s to gain justice cancel the German Sub contract(?), another party having nothing to do with the original debt injustice, but now turned into a new innocent German victim, which the Germans will react to by demanding that this new perceived injustice be punished in the name of justice….
And, so it goes, ever spinning in a reinforcing circle of abuse, victimization, and escalating demands for justice creating new innocent victims on the way to spinning out of control.
Or, as I’ve been saying all along, “Two wrongs don’t make a right!”
It’s in German hands to stop this endless cycle now, before it truly gets out of hand. They should take their finger out of the Thai eye and release the innocent plane and return the issue to the original debt injustice, rather than face the no-win new injustice reaction, the Germans have created by insulting a sacred Thai institution.
That is, if the Germans are mature, civilized and pragmatic enough to let go of that delicious and addictive barbaric desire for ‘vengeance at all costs’, no matter how self destructive it may be.
Plane audacity in Thai dispute
Dan ajarn // Jul 30, 2011 at 3:31 am
I’m skeptical when the President of the German-Thai Chamber of Commerce, with personal ongoing business interests in Thailand probably dependent on his good relations with Thai government officials, says the following to a Bangkok Post Reporter.
Interesting that you don’t believe what a real businessman, doing real business in Thailand, says about the impact of this case on the perception of the international business community.
You say that as apparently an “ajarn”, which gives you what insight into the international business community and its perception of doing business In Thailand? Or is your comment more about your opinion of Thailand and the need to disparage anyone that has a different view?
Also interesting that my post on what a real businessman thinks about doing business in Thailand got 6 thumbs down and your post on what an English teacher thinks about it got 6 thumbs up.
Yingluck’s Foreign Minister
As a wishy-washy liberal I assure you it is possible to plausibly combine “Yellow Moron” with “Red-Shirt Thug” in a single sentence. I come across both quite frequently at the extremes of conversation. You also meet a lot of nice folks in the middle of whom a percentage will gravitate to the corners depending on
a) the group they are with
b) the amount of alcohol flowing
c) the particular topic of conversation. (there are reds who want a Thai Preah Vihear and yellows who want a free tablet PC)
(Like most countries then!)
Burma’s reading culture
Intellectual Society = Colonial Society?
Is the idea that the societies formerly colonized by Western nations exhibit traits more easily recognized as, for instance, ‘intellectualism’ by members of Western elites?