‘Mr Supoj (transport permanent secretary( said the ministry has fresh evidence to show the ruling is distorted and needs to be reviewed.According to Mr Supoj, Walter Bau has ties with Thai nationals who might have meddled with the case.’
The usual attempts to deny responsibility, or are things starting to get even murkier?
And I wonder if this has anything to do with Somchai’s post in the BP? (comments since closed/ deleted) – here’s a reminder from my previous post #95
Discussion 1 : 21/07/2011 at 12:45 AM1
‘Several reports that Robert Amsterdam is involved. Will he get comission from the bank guarantee or a bonus from the fugitive?
What happened to that old adage about respect for courts? If Thailand is so enamored with the principle of justice being automatic with court decisions, it should be more than glad to pay the surety.
Thank you, Hla Oo. I have no reason not to believe your story about the two Japanese VJs given the traditional hospitality of the Burmese towards foreigners. Very different from Kenji Nagai’s fate nearly two decades later in the thick of the protests and in the heat of the moment in downtown Yangon.
It’s easy to tar the people and their rulers with the same brush, no stranger to that yourself. Even the battle hardened and brutalised soldiers of the Tatmadaw do not necessarily behave the same way all the time and in different circumstances. And I doubt it if Mya Gyi, the deep cover assassin who killed Thakin Than Tun in the jungles of the Bago Yoma with a single shot from his rifle, could have done the same things that Htoo Htoo Han claimed to have done.
‘The majority of Thai people say a corrupt government is acceptable to them if, in being dishonest, it can also bring prosperity to the people and to the country, according to the results of an Abac Poll released on Wednesday.’
That is just weird, it goes against all the logic. If the government is corrupted, by default, the country cannot have prosperity. I’m almost sure that corruption and prosperity have negative correlation. I think we have to really think about what “corruption” means in this case. Which bring me to my next point.
VichaiN –
Now that we are in agreement that Thaksin indeed is corrupt (to godzilian scale),
If Thaksin is as corrupted as you said, how come our debt to GDP go down almost 10 percents during his term? there is something really wrong with that.
JohnH#36, that’s because the current government has shown them that being incompetent is even more scarier than corruption.
Seeking war with your neighbors? -check
Rising price of Palm oil, despite being one of the world largest producters? – check
National debt is now at a record high? -check
Not to mention GT200 & 92 people shot dead in the middle of the capital from protests.
The only reason PT won, was that TRT shown that being competent is what really MATTERS. Corruption is secondary, as it should be.
Corruption is like a cancer, and needs to be eradicated.
But you’re more likely to die if you can’t control your limbs while walking along the sidewalk. Not to mention looking idiotic while dying, leaves you with no dignity.
JohnH @95: “The 737 was a ‘gift’ to the CP. It’s a simple as that.”
A transfer by gift would still have to be reflected in documents showing the transfer of ownership. Use of such documents is not limited to transfers by sale.
The necessity for such documents is amply demonstrated by the present dispute. Such documents are necessary in any event to establish rights and responsibilities regarding the plane. For example, if there were an accident, who has liability? And who is entitled to the insurance proceeds for damage to the plane?
You don’t just give away (or sell) a 20-million-euro aircraft without carefully documenting the new ownership. A lack of documentation suggests there was no gift, no sale, no transfer.
The Thai government has now presented the best evidence yet on the ownership of the 737. AFP reports today (21 July):
Thailand’s foreign minister on Thursday ruled out paying a multi-million dollar bank guarantee to secure the release of the Thai crown prince’s jet, which has been impounded in Germany.
In other words, the government is not sufficiently convinced by its own “evidence” to put its money at risk. Its refusal to post the guarantee speaks louder than any words.
There is a bug in the BangkokPost comment system that lets you view all posts that haven’t been deleted (including those that haven’t been approved, yet). It continues to show comments for quite a while after the comments are blocked, too (perhaps because of caching?).
I’ve never seen anyone post anything ‘dangerous’ to the airplane articles . . . perhaps I missed them, or perhaps BP didn’t want to take a chance on it but the censor was slow . . .
Perhaps a silly question but . . . how does he have any power? Do people just do what he says for nothing? What does CP have that people want that he can give? I can’t see him as someone who has any really influence over anyone else. Not even when he goes from CP to become CK. He doesn’t even seem to want to be involved. The current CK gains his power from the deep love/respect/fanaticism of his followers . . . but for the CP?
(no, not Calvin Klein lol)
The German business community is very closely following the development in this case…. An incident a couple of years ago: a Thai court reversed a ruling that would have obliged the state enterprise ETA (Expressway and Rapid Transit Authority of Thailand) “to pay a Thai-German construction company 6.2 billion baht (172 million dollars)”. The ruling was that then governor of ETA Siwa Charoenphan had unlawfully signed the contract to build the expressway so the ETA was not bound to pay any compensation resulting from the contract. … Go figure yourself: http://rawstory.com/news/2007/Thai_court_reverses_compensation_ve_02152007.html
And then an interesting update via AFP:
Thailand rules out paying to free prince’s plane
BANGKOK, July 21, 2011 (AFP) – Thailand’s foreign minister on Thursday ruled out paying a multi-million dollar bank guarantee to secure the release of the Thai crown prince’s jet, which has been impounded in Germany.
The decision not to fork out the 20 million euros ($28 million) ordered by a German court in exchange for Maha Vajiralongkorn’s Boeing 737 adds a further twist to an uncomfortable episode that has threatened ties between the nations.
“We are confident that the aircraft belongs to the crown prince. He is not involved with this case and the documents are very solid, so there is no need to pay the guarantee of 20 million euros,” said Thai Foreign Minister Kasit Piromya. (…)
Kasit has now announced the Thailand government will not put up the 20 million Euro gurantee/bond to free the captive 737 per link below. In addition the delegation/entourage of high Thai government officials travelling to and from Germany to deal with this case keeps increasing in numbers.
BANGKOK, July 21, 2011 (AFP) – Thailand’s foreign minister on Thursday ruled out paying a multi-million dollar bank guarantee to secure the release of the Thai crown prince’s jet, which has been impounded in Germany.
The decision not to fork out the 20 million euros ($28 million) ordered by a German court in exchange for Maha Vajiralongkorn’s Boeing 737 adds a further twist to an uncomfortable episode that has threatened ties between the nations.
“We are confident that the aircraft belongs to the crown prince. He is not involved with this case and the documents are very solid, so there is no need to pay the guarantee of 20 million euros,” said Thai Foreign Minister Kasit Piromya.
TC, aka Tony, aka LD, aka LandDestroyer….you have become very tedious in your repetitive comments & self-prmotion on so many of the Thailand-related blogs……you are such a strident one-note voice….perhaps for the rest of us who wish to participate in a lively thread, you or the respective blog editers could show some consideration, perhaps by just assigning a number to your mantra, perhaps “555”. I assure you that when we all see “555” we will all know exactly what you have to say and economise our time as well.
Due to my limited language proficiency, I just wanted to point out two short notions exerted by “Plan B” which are standing out in my view.
(1) there are over 100 ethnicity within Myanmar
(2) US labelled Myanmar as an “axis of evil” and this caused military to raise its numbers up to 400 + k
(1) I love to hear the names of these so called 100+ ethnicity of Myanmar/Burma or should I point out that the Burmese dominated government created this for their own good end? I bet Plan B would have trouble naming Burma’s ethnicity just to reach up to 30. In reality, there are more than 50 sub-tribes in Chin ethnic alone which could not constitute as separate ethnicity and the government use this to serve their own agenda.
(2) this is just a “teapot calling kettle black” case and I believed that I even do not need to explain as almost everyone know that military expansion came first.
Once again – New Mandala is posting half the story and once again standing firmly behind yet another foreign funded opposition using the facade of “democracy” to dupe well meaning people into ousting one government and replacing it with another – one more conducive to foreign corporate interests.
Bersih’s leader, Ambiga Sreenevassan, admitted to receiving funds from the US government’s National Endowment for Democracy’s NDI (National Democratic Institute) as well as from billionaire bankster George Soros’ Open Society. In turn Bersih is serving as a street front for Malaysia’s opposition coalition led by Anwar Ibrahhim – and is NOT a grassroots movement.
Anwar for his part is a regular guest at the National Endowment for Democracy’s Washington DC headquarters where he participates in frequent events held there. It is no surprise that they are pulling to get him reinstalled into power – also like it is no surprise they are doing something similar in Thailand regarding Thaksin – and NED is also fully funding organizations working toward that end.
If New Mandala wants to take sides, report only half the story, and promote a global corporatocracy – that is fine – their right to do so – but they should fully inform their readership that is what they are doing and stop posing as “academics.”
As seems to be so often the case, the blocking is not universal in Thailand. Clicking on the link took me straight to the site (3BB connection in Chiang Mai).
Dare I say, you’re not missing much. Opposed as I am to the LM laws and certainly to how they’re used, this site isn’t one that would be anywhere near the top of a list of exhibits for campaigning against the laws.
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Plane audacity in Thai dispute
Today, the BP has this:
‘Mr Supoj (transport permanent secretary( said the ministry has fresh evidence to show the ruling is distorted and needs to be reviewed.According to Mr Supoj, Walter Bau has ties with Thai nationals who might have meddled with the case.’
http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/local/248178/govt-refuses-to-pay-surety-for-royal-jet
The usual attempts to deny responsibility, or are things starting to get even murkier?
And I wonder if this has anything to do with Somchai’s post in the BP? (comments since closed/ deleted) – here’s a reminder from my previous post #95
Discussion 1 : 21/07/2011 at 12:45 AM1
‘Several reports that Robert Amsterdam is involved. Will he get comission from the bank guarantee or a bonus from the fugitive?
Long shadow of war in Kachin State
Sad how the Burmese try to control and suppress even the Kachin’s cultural and religious affairs.
Plane audacity in Thai dispute
What happened to that old adage about respect for courts? If Thailand is so enamored with the principle of justice being automatic with court decisions, it should be more than glad to pay the surety.
Htoo Htoo Han the confessor
Thank you, Hla Oo. I have no reason not to believe your story about the two Japanese VJs given the traditional hospitality of the Burmese towards foreigners. Very different from Kenji Nagai’s fate nearly two decades later in the thick of the protests and in the heat of the moment in downtown Yangon.
It’s easy to tar the people and their rulers with the same brush, no stranger to that yourself. Even the battle hardened and brutalised soldiers of the Tatmadaw do not necessarily behave the same way all the time and in different circumstances. And I doubt it if Mya Gyi, the deep cover assassin who killed Thakin Than Tun in the jungles of the Bago Yoma with a single shot from his rifle, could have done the same things that Htoo Htoo Han claimed to have done.
Thailand’s corruption record
JohnH – 36
‘The majority of Thai people say a corrupt government is acceptable to them if, in being dishonest, it can also bring prosperity to the people and to the country, according to the results of an Abac Poll released on Wednesday.’
That is just weird, it goes against all the logic. If the government is corrupted, by default, the country cannot have prosperity. I’m almost sure that corruption and prosperity have negative correlation. I think we have to really think about what “corruption” means in this case. Which bring me to my next point.
VichaiN –
Now that we are in agreement that Thaksin indeed is corrupt (to godzilian scale),
If Thaksin is as corrupted as you said, how come our debt to GDP go down almost 10 percents during his term? there is something really wrong with that.
Thailand’s corruption record
JohnH#36, that’s because the current government has shown them that being incompetent is even more scarier than corruption.
Seeking war with your neighbors? -check
Rising price of Palm oil, despite being one of the world largest producters? – check
National debt is now at a record high? -check
Not to mention GT200 & 92 people shot dead in the middle of the capital from protests.
The only reason PT won, was that TRT shown that being competent is what really MATTERS. Corruption is secondary, as it should be.
Corruption is like a cancer, and needs to be eradicated.
But you’re more likely to die if you can’t control your limbs while walking along the sidewalk. Not to mention looking idiotic while dying, leaves you with no dignity.
Awakening of the Malaysian Diaspora
For NM readers who still have no idea who TC or Tony Cartalucci and his political orientation and ulterior motive are urged to open this link:
http://tony-cartalucci-critic.blogspot.com/
Plane audacity in Thai dispute
JohnH @95: “The 737 was a ‘gift’ to the CP. It’s a simple as that.”
A transfer by gift would still have to be reflected in documents showing the transfer of ownership. Use of such documents is not limited to transfers by sale.
The necessity for such documents is amply demonstrated by the present dispute. Such documents are necessary in any event to establish rights and responsibilities regarding the plane. For example, if there were an accident, who has liability? And who is entitled to the insurance proceeds for damage to the plane?
You don’t just give away (or sell) a 20-million-euro aircraft without carefully documenting the new ownership. A lack of documentation suggests there was no gift, no sale, no transfer.
Plane audacity in Thai dispute
The Thai government has now presented the best evidence yet on the ownership of the 737. AFP reports today (21 July):
http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5ib8YHJAEmDQ2uFMxO4r6FcoMQRCg?docId=CNG.454ffc5a0460a3378f12993e4765f06d.521
In other words, the government is not sufficiently convinced by its own “evidence” to put its money at risk. Its refusal to post the guarantee speaks louder than any words.
Democrat dominance in the deep south
Interesting, almost companion-piece to this article, from Asia Times Online:
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Southeast_Asia/MG22Ae01.html
Plane audacity in Thai dispute
#103 SteveCM
There is a bug in the BangkokPost comment system that lets you view all posts that haven’t been deleted (including those that haven’t been approved, yet). It continues to show comments for quite a while after the comments are blocked, too (perhaps because of caching?).
The secret is to go to the mobile version of the site:
http://m.bangkokpost.com/
I’ve never seen anyone post anything ‘dangerous’ to the airplane articles . . . perhaps I missed them, or perhaps BP didn’t want to take a chance on it but the censor was slow . . .
Plane audacity in Thai dispute
#102 R.N.
Perhaps a silly question but . . . how does he have any power? Do people just do what he says for nothing? What does CP have that people want that he can give? I can’t see him as someone who has any really influence over anyone else. Not even when he goes from CP to become CK. He doesn’t even seem to want to be involved. The current CK gains his power from the deep love/respect/fanaticism of his followers . . . but for the CP?
(no, not Calvin Klein lol)
Plane audacity in Thai dispute
The German business community is very closely following the development in this case…. An incident a couple of years ago: a Thai court reversed a ruling that would have obliged the state enterprise ETA (Expressway and Rapid Transit Authority of Thailand) “to pay a Thai-German construction company 6.2 billion baht (172 million dollars)”. The ruling was that then governor of ETA Siwa Charoenphan had unlawfully signed the contract to build the expressway so the ETA was not bound to pay any compensation resulting from the contract. … Go figure yourself:
http://rawstory.com/news/2007/Thai_court_reverses_compensation_ve_02152007.html
And then an interesting update via AFP:
Thailand rules out paying to free prince’s plane
BANGKOK, July 21, 2011 (AFP) – Thailand’s foreign minister on Thursday ruled out paying a multi-million dollar bank guarantee to secure the release of the Thai crown prince’s jet, which has been impounded in Germany.
The decision not to fork out the 20 million euros ($28 million) ordered by a German court in exchange for Maha Vajiralongkorn’s Boeing 737 adds a further twist to an uncomfortable episode that has threatened ties between the nations.
“We are confident that the aircraft belongs to the crown prince. He is not involved with this case and the documents are very solid, so there is no need to pay the guarantee of 20 million euros,” said Thai Foreign Minister Kasit Piromya. (…)
Plane audacity in Thai dispute
Kasit has now announced the Thailand government will not put up the 20 million Euro gurantee/bond to free the captive 737 per link below. In addition the delegation/entourage of high Thai government officials travelling to and from Germany to deal with this case keeps increasing in numbers.
http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/local/248128/kasit-no-guarantee-deposit-for-the-release-of-royal-jet
Plane audacity in Thai dispute
Back to nearly square one, it seems…..
BANGKOK, July 21, 2011 (AFP) – Thailand’s foreign minister on Thursday ruled out paying a multi-million dollar bank guarantee to secure the release of the Thai crown prince’s jet, which has been impounded in Germany.
The decision not to fork out the 20 million euros ($28 million) ordered by a German court in exchange for Maha Vajiralongkorn’s Boeing 737 adds a further twist to an uncomfortable episode that has threatened ties between the nations.
“We are confident that the aircraft belongs to the crown prince. He is not involved with this case and the documents are very solid, so there is no need to pay the guarantee of 20 million euros,” said Thai Foreign Minister Kasit Piromya.
Awakening of the Malaysian Diaspora
TC, aka Tony, aka LD, aka LandDestroyer….you have become very tedious in your repetitive comments & self-prmotion on so many of the Thailand-related blogs……you are such a strident one-note voice….perhaps for the rest of us who wish to participate in a lively thread, you or the respective blog editers could show some consideration, perhaps by just assigning a number to your mantra, perhaps “555”. I assure you that when we all see “555” we will all know exactly what you have to say and economise our time as well.
New war in Kachin State?
Due to my limited language proficiency, I just wanted to point out two short notions exerted by “Plan B” which are standing out in my view.
(1) there are over 100 ethnicity within Myanmar
(2) US labelled Myanmar as an “axis of evil” and this caused military to raise its numbers up to 400 + k
(1) I love to hear the names of these so called 100+ ethnicity of Myanmar/Burma or should I point out that the Burmese dominated government created this for their own good end? I bet Plan B would have trouble naming Burma’s ethnicity just to reach up to 30. In reality, there are more than 50 sub-tribes in Chin ethnic alone which could not constitute as separate ethnicity and the government use this to serve their own agenda.
(2) this is just a “teapot calling kettle black” case and I believed that I even do not need to explain as almost everyone know that military expansion came first.
Awakening of the Malaysian Diaspora
Hi Tony,
Maybe you could write an article in defence of the ruling regime for New Mandala readers to judge.
Awakening of the Malaysian Diaspora
Once again – New Mandala is posting half the story and once again standing firmly behind yet another foreign funded opposition using the facade of “democracy” to dupe well meaning people into ousting one government and replacing it with another – one more conducive to foreign corporate interests.
Bersih’s leader, Ambiga Sreenevassan, admitted to receiving funds from the US government’s National Endowment for Democracy’s NDI (National Democratic Institute) as well as from billionaire bankster George Soros’ Open Society. In turn Bersih is serving as a street front for Malaysia’s opposition coalition led by Anwar Ibrahhim – and is NOT a grassroots movement.
http://www.themalaysianinsider.com/mobile/malaysia/article/Bersih-repudiates-foreign-Christian-funding-claim/
http://landdestroyer.blogspot.com/2011/07/malaysias-bersih-facade-of-clean.html
Anwar for his part is a regular guest at the National Endowment for Democracy’s Washington DC headquarters where he participates in frequent events held there. It is no surprise that they are pulling to get him reinstalled into power – also like it is no surprise they are doing something similar in Thailand regarding Thaksin – and NED is also fully funding organizations working toward that end.
If New Mandala wants to take sides, report only half the story, and promote a global corporatocracy – that is fine – their right to do so – but they should fully inform their readership that is what they are doing and stop posing as “academics.”
Thanong on King Bhumibol
Arthurson – c46
As seems to be so often the case, the blocking is not universal in Thailand. Clicking on the link took me straight to the site (3BB connection in Chiang Mai).
Dare I say, you’re not missing much. Opposed as I am to the LM laws and certainly to how they’re used, this site isn’t one that would be anywhere near the top of a list of exhibits for campaigning against the laws.