As to a wise farang once said “Only invest in Thailand what you can afford to loose.” I don’t disagree with your synopsis of Thais and the dangers of opening a business but having previously worked in real estate (long retired) in Thailand I would suggest that was usually referring to the purchase of property as usually he didn’t actually have the money to buy, so had no choice but to rent and was justifying that to friends.
I have owned several properties there for a long time, the rate of return is very good at 10%+, no land taxes or hassles either. Compare that to the west. Thailand like everywhere is a mix of good and bad, a few dollars in the bank tips the scales considerably though. And there are many farang there that only just manage to survive, and often by being involved in similar scams to the Thais. Anyone been there a while has seen them.
To: Patsan
People, a very social organism, are very susceptible to swarm intelligence models that afflict herd mentality. Observing herd mentalities, group mentalities, you can not really deduce an individual assessment from their group/mass participation. Just like you would not really associate the р╕Бр╕н.р╕гр╕бр╕Щ. officers with the red shirt rallies, but they stick out like a thumb anyways at those rallies, some I guess. My point is; intelligence is very often, I believe erroneously, misinterpretated as synonymous being smart. I mean this rhetoric was used by the Khmer Rouge; “you New People, if you’re so Smart try surviving in the most hostile and undeveloped lands that Ankgor has to offer, in the mean time we will exploit you and kill anyone of you that tries to be smart”(not a sympathizer to genocide, crimes against humanity, sorry if I offended, I don’t have a wealth of knowledge for example). It is unfortunate that a lot of Thais are still stuck with the supernatural explanation/meta-narrative, that they are still cognitively at rest from the evolving world, but should they really be the one’s to blame when is it not a catch phrase like; р╣Др╕бр╣Ир╣Ар╕Кр╕╖р╣Ир╕нр╕нр╕вр╣Ир╕▓р╕ер╕Ър╕лр╕ер╕╣р╣И “non-beleivers don’t criticize,” or that the Theravada path is to save one’s self first before others: Monkhood; the higher cycle of existense is only applicable as first an individual/private path to Nirvana/Salvation. And the “formal public” education of Thailand being totalitarian and dictoral(personal and collective experience with friends who got expelled from them), should we not put some of the blame on who or whatever that had instigated, installed, instilled, ingrained, inaugurated a socio-cultural structure that is so detrimental to critical thinking and intelligence, that only empowers the few by oppressing the majority through giving conformity, obedience, and compliance the title of “smart” р╕Йр╕ер╕▓р╕Ф р╣Ар╕Кр╕╖р╣Ир╕нр╕Яр╕▒р╕З р╣Др╕бр╣Ир╕Фр╕╖р╣Йр╕н р╕гр╕╣р╣Йр╕Хр╣Ир╕│р╕гр╕╣р╣Йр╕кр╕╣р╕З, an esoteric monopoly on definitions, knowhow, worst of all; identity. And suppressed, obpressed, repressed anyone that dares to question, critcize or beg the differ, by killing when possible and now casting them as the “other” not real Thais or stupid Thais. It was never a problem when the poor did their social rituals as long as they were slaves to the hierarchy(who owns the gambling syndicates), but when they start to wake up and mobilize to demand for equity, which has no prerequisite of being smart or intelligent for that matter, the old “you stupid fools” rhetoric is invoked. The Thais as any peoples are not inherently stupid, they’ve just been asleep because the climate and abundance here allowed them so. But globalization has brought with it a rude awakening. Individually, people of many skills and professions, when awoken abruptly can be grumpy, but socially, when an entire economical sector or class is rudely awaken; it could be hostile. And the one’s to blame, are people that were privileged (is it spelled privyleged) enough to be educated by the best, but, never actually did anything for their fellow countrymen/women but perpetuate a system that makes the majority of the people of Thailand susceptive to mass exploitation.
I have informally polled may Thai friends about the seizure of th Prince’s plane by the German courts and find that Kasit’s statement about “All of the Thai people are worried about what happened” is not correct. They don’t seem to give a stuff about the Prince’s plane although a few of them did think it was a good joke. Some even suggested he stop playing around in Germany and get a job.
I have personally experienced the bias electoral system. I have personally experienced the arrogance and intimidating behavior of the police and some government officials. I have no political affiliation but only ask for a just, fair, non-discriminatory and efficient government, and a fair electoral system and election is the only time I have a VOICE. Is rallying to get our voices heard illegal? If our voices aren’t heard and that is the only course of action to get attention, why not? As for the notion of instability and treachery, it is the play of fear to get people to shut up and accept the status quo. We are tired of the game and WANT to see action so that the ordinary rakyat can have a voice in how to run the country! The ‘elites’ should give us a fair go or it’s too much to lose for them?
“My question to you is very simple: If you do not have parents who paid for your quality Education. If you had no money in your pocket. If you know your fellow urbane Bangkok citizens deemed you ignorant. Would you have had the guts, the brains, the determination to take out a loan from a loan shark (yes, loan shark, not civilized bank with collateral), travel alone to another country that do not speak your language, and made it there? Would you?”
Indeed, I got a fair education, but is it fair enough for the ones who are honestly enough to pay a full tax? (didn’t have any left for a tax aversion consultant). Is it “you get what you pay for”?
“On another note, I highly respect these paganistic rural Thais who respect their environments and their roots. I highly esteemed my former farmer friends from Isaan who with barely any quality education and no English speaking ability, managed to get to Australia, worked, learn English, save money, eventually buy their own Thai eatery and feed their family, then bring their parents across.”
Well it quite interestd on this “Hollywood/ The End of the Raingbow” fairy tale stereotype. Isn’t the Thais should proud of their culture, be self dependent and stay to help out their family/village instead of just left over to other place (since lots of Farangs think in vis versa). Actually, please don’t get me wrong, I didn’t mean to blame it all on the class/ education layer, but this are what really happen there. Thai rural people are a very polite, honest people. They just need an appropiate treatment, not a spoil one.
Leeyiankun#17
“What you need to stop is clamoring to stereotype. Look at things layer by layer. Humans are sophisticated beings, and you’d do well to remember that”
Well, should it take a good look at another perspective/ layer esp. when they are big enough (with their quantity). Again, I didn’t mean that all people who gathered there were as the last line quote, but it is the thing that was there.
More or less it is the opinion, don’t take it as the one single factual thing.
My last comment led me to check the World Bank’s Kingdom of Thailand – Public expenditure and financial accountability : public financial management assessment, dated October 2009. The 122 page PDF document (also available in text format) mentions corruption only twice, and in each instance as part of a compound noun Corruption Commission. Thus, I fear some lack of credibility in the report. Capital ‘L.’
The different between us and you is that we never pretend that Thaksin is not corrupt (ala your comment #18) and at many point in time I do criticized him for many things. Just because you said Thaksin did something wrong doesn’t mean that his rival didn’t do the same. Moreover, I never brought Thaksin into conversation, it is always you who couldn’t find a better argument and use his as scapegoat.
If you really think the point thats Nuomi or me made were invalid then at least bring something solid to the table. Just pointing out Thaksin flaw is not going to whitewash Abhisit or Chuan dirty hand.
The Thai approach to working with foreign investors is to get the work done and then look for reasons not to pay, and this also applies to their dismal record on complying with international treaties and covenants to which they are often signatories (to generate good appearances) bit are rarely compliant.
In the Loxley lottery bid 2 or 3 years back, it was reported at the time that the government officers trying to find a way out of the lottery, for which contracts had already been issued to a consortium which included Loxley, were instructed to ‘find something that we can use as a reason to cancel it’. On another phase of the BKK tollways a few years ago, payments of several billion baht were refused on the basis that 2 light poles were 1m shorter than specified.
The Thai has a moral deficit, it comes in part from decades of poor education and a propagandised belief that Thais are better than other folk. Outside of Thailand, Thai misdemeanours are often rewarded with a judicial kicking, which of course is never reported inside Thailand to preserve the self-esteem of the Thai nation, same as the CP has been described as a ‘Thai national’ in that awful rag the Nation, to avoid loss of face (http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2011/07/16/national/Kasit-seeks-a-meeting-with-German-deputy-FM-over-i-30160380.html).
It would be nice to see Thais get their come-uppance more often, and this episode, featuring the aircraft toy of perhaps the most loathed and detested person in Thailand is a good start, hopefully it won’t fall in a heap.
Little by little, Thais are being exposed over recent years as having more than their fare share of corruption, cheating and thieving among the citizenry and the government and the bureaucracy, but they seemingly aren’t bright enough to understand that sooner or later, their bottom line will suffer as a consequence of this moral deficit.
OK, I looked it up.
Boeing 737 – used price-
5-10 years is still considered almost new, so the price would be around $45 million if you only buy one. Add another $2-5 million per year for maintenance, fuel, wages etc
A wise farang once said “Only invest in Thailand what you can afford to loose.”
Thousands of people have been stung by loosing money in Thailand. The Thais are masters of avoiding responsibility, accountability and above all have no shame when it comes to ripping people off.
The attitude is just like one respected Thai politician’s view
“I don’t respect Farangs.”
Ownership?
Who bought this aircraft?
Who pays the operating costs, royal outfitting, insurance, staff, fuel, maintenance, landing fees, storage, catering, entertainment, depreciation, etc.?
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Plane audacity in Thai dispute
As to a wise farang once said “Only invest in Thailand what you can afford to loose.” I don’t disagree with your synopsis of Thais and the dangers of opening a business but having previously worked in real estate (long retired) in Thailand I would suggest that was usually referring to the purchase of property as usually he didn’t actually have the money to buy, so had no choice but to rent and was justifying that to friends.
I have owned several properties there for a long time, the rate of return is very good at 10%+, no land taxes or hassles either. Compare that to the west. Thailand like everywhere is a mix of good and bad, a few dollars in the bank tips the scales considerably though. And there are many farang there that only just manage to survive, and often by being involved in similar scams to the Thais. Anyone been there a while has seen them.
Thailand’s corruption record
To: Patsan
People, a very social organism, are very susceptible to swarm intelligence models that afflict herd mentality. Observing herd mentalities, group mentalities, you can not really deduce an individual assessment from their group/mass participation. Just like you would not really associate the р╕Бр╕н.р╕гр╕бр╕Щ. officers with the red shirt rallies, but they stick out like a thumb anyways at those rallies, some I guess. My point is; intelligence is very often, I believe erroneously, misinterpretated as synonymous being smart. I mean this rhetoric was used by the Khmer Rouge; “you New People, if you’re so Smart try surviving in the most hostile and undeveloped lands that Ankgor has to offer, in the mean time we will exploit you and kill anyone of you that tries to be smart”(not a sympathizer to genocide, crimes against humanity, sorry if I offended, I don’t have a wealth of knowledge for example). It is unfortunate that a lot of Thais are still stuck with the supernatural explanation/meta-narrative, that they are still cognitively at rest from the evolving world, but should they really be the one’s to blame when is it not a catch phrase like; р╣Др╕бр╣Ир╣Ар╕Кр╕╖р╣Ир╕нр╕нр╕вр╣Ир╕▓р╕ер╕Ър╕лр╕ер╕╣р╣И “non-beleivers don’t criticize,” or that the Theravada path is to save one’s self first before others: Monkhood; the higher cycle of existense is only applicable as first an individual/private path to Nirvana/Salvation. And the “formal public” education of Thailand being totalitarian and dictoral(personal and collective experience with friends who got expelled from them), should we not put some of the blame on who or whatever that had instigated, installed, instilled, ingrained, inaugurated a socio-cultural structure that is so detrimental to critical thinking and intelligence, that only empowers the few by oppressing the majority through giving conformity, obedience, and compliance the title of “smart” р╕Йр╕ер╕▓р╕Ф р╣Ар╕Кр╕╖р╣Ир╕нр╕Яр╕▒р╕З р╣Др╕бр╣Ир╕Фр╕╖р╣Йр╕н р╕гр╕╣р╣Йр╕Хр╣Ир╕│р╕гр╕╣р╣Йр╕кр╕╣р╕З, an esoteric monopoly on definitions, knowhow, worst of all; identity. And suppressed, obpressed, repressed anyone that dares to question, critcize or beg the differ, by killing when possible and now casting them as the “other” not real Thais or stupid Thais. It was never a problem when the poor did their social rituals as long as they were slaves to the hierarchy(who owns the gambling syndicates), but when they start to wake up and mobilize to demand for equity, which has no prerequisite of being smart or intelligent for that matter, the old “you stupid fools” rhetoric is invoked. The Thais as any peoples are not inherently stupid, they’ve just been asleep because the climate and abundance here allowed them so. But globalization has brought with it a rude awakening. Individually, people of many skills and professions, when awoken abruptly can be grumpy, but socially, when an entire economical sector or class is rudely awaken; it could be hostile. And the one’s to blame, are people that were privileged (is it spelled privyleged) enough to be educated by the best, but, never actually did anything for their fellow countrymen/women but perpetuate a system that makes the majority of the people of Thailand susceptive to mass exploitation.
Plane audacity in Thai dispute
I have informally polled may Thai friends about the seizure of th Prince’s plane by the German courts and find that Kasit’s statement about “All of the Thai people are worried about what happened” is not correct. They don’t seem to give a stuff about the Prince’s plane although a few of them did think it was a good joke. Some even suggested he stop playing around in Germany and get a job.
Plane audacity in Thai dispute
“‘All of the Thai people are worried about what happened,’ he (Kasit) said.” Bangkok Post.
Did Kasit do a referendum on this?
Plane audacity in Thai dispute
Thanks Stuart.
Pam makes an excellent point. I’d be prepared to bet that the Thai taxpayer foots the bill for all of these essentially private junkets.
BERSIH 2.0 analysis
I have personally experienced the bias electoral system. I have personally experienced the arrogance and intimidating behavior of the police and some government officials. I have no political affiliation but only ask for a just, fair, non-discriminatory and efficient government, and a fair electoral system and election is the only time I have a VOICE. Is rallying to get our voices heard illegal? If our voices aren’t heard and that is the only course of action to get attention, why not? As for the notion of instability and treachery, it is the play of fear to get people to shut up and accept the status quo. We are tired of the game and WANT to see action so that the ordinary rakyat can have a voice in how to run the country! The ‘elites’ should give us a fair go or it’s too much to lose for them?
Thailand’s corruption record
Nuomi:#16
“My question to you is very simple: If you do not have parents who paid for your quality Education. If you had no money in your pocket. If you know your fellow urbane Bangkok citizens deemed you ignorant. Would you have had the guts, the brains, the determination to take out a loan from a loan shark (yes, loan shark, not civilized bank with collateral), travel alone to another country that do not speak your language, and made it there? Would you?”
Indeed, I got a fair education, but is it fair enough for the ones who are honestly enough to pay a full tax? (didn’t have any left for a tax aversion consultant). Is it “you get what you pay for”?
“On another note, I highly respect these paganistic rural Thais who respect their environments and their roots. I highly esteemed my former farmer friends from Isaan who with barely any quality education and no English speaking ability, managed to get to Australia, worked, learn English, save money, eventually buy their own Thai eatery and feed their family, then bring their parents across.”
Well it quite interestd on this “Hollywood/ The End of the Raingbow” fairy tale stereotype. Isn’t the Thais should proud of their culture, be self dependent and stay to help out their family/village instead of just left over to other place (since lots of Farangs think in vis versa). Actually, please don’t get me wrong, I didn’t mean to blame it all on the class/ education layer, but this are what really happen there. Thai rural people are a very polite, honest people. They just need an appropiate treatment, not a spoil one.
Leeyiankun#17
“What you need to stop is clamoring to stereotype. Look at things layer by layer. Humans are sophisticated beings, and you’d do well to remember that”
Well, should it take a good look at another perspective/ layer esp. when they are big enough (with their quantity). Again, I didn’t mean that all people who gathered there were as the last line quote, but it is the thing that was there.
More or less it is the opinion, don’t take it as the one single factual thing.
Plane audacity in Thai dispute
My last comment led me to check the World Bank’s Kingdom of Thailand – Public expenditure and financial accountability : public financial management assessment, dated October 2009. The 122 page PDF document (also available in text format) mentions corruption only twice, and in each instance as part of a compound noun Corruption Commission. Thus, I fear some lack of credibility in the report. Capital ‘L.’
Plane audacity in Thai dispute
There are two Nation stories at the moment that are easy to find:
http://www.nationmultimedia.com/home/Thailands-making-all-efforts-to-end-aircraft-spat–30160340.html – as indicated by Stuart. This one refers to “Thai national.”
Another Nation story on it is http://www.nationmultimedia.com/home/Kasit-seeks-a-meeting-with-German-deputy-FM-over-i-30160380.html. This one ends with Abhisit quoted as saying Thailand has lots of assets. He did not mention that its nationals are more than adroit at hiding them, especially when it comes to accountability and liability cases.
Thailand’s corruption record
Vichai N – 23
The different between us and you is that we never pretend that Thaksin is not corrupt (ala your comment #18) and at many point in time I do criticized him for many things. Just because you said Thaksin did something wrong doesn’t mean that his rival didn’t do the same. Moreover, I never brought Thaksin into conversation, it is always you who couldn’t find a better argument and use his as scapegoat.
If you really think the point thats Nuomi or me made were invalid then at least bring something solid to the table. Just pointing out Thaksin flaw is not going to whitewash Abhisit or Chuan dirty hand.
Malaysia: a Clean sweep?
[…] New South Wales. The article above first appeared in the New Mandala website under the headline ‘Malaysia: a Clean sweep?’ on July […]
Plane audacity in Thai dispute
Ralph(#27): The quote is in the last line here: http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2011/07/15/national/Thailands-making-all-efforts-to-end-aircraft-spat–30160340.html
Plane audacity in Thai dispute
The Thai approach to working with foreign investors is to get the work done and then look for reasons not to pay, and this also applies to their dismal record on complying with international treaties and covenants to which they are often signatories (to generate good appearances) bit are rarely compliant.
In the Loxley lottery bid 2 or 3 years back, it was reported at the time that the government officers trying to find a way out of the lottery, for which contracts had already been issued to a consortium which included Loxley, were instructed to ‘find something that we can use as a reason to cancel it’. On another phase of the BKK tollways a few years ago, payments of several billion baht were refused on the basis that 2 light poles were 1m shorter than specified.
The Thai has a moral deficit, it comes in part from decades of poor education and a propagandised belief that Thais are better than other folk. Outside of Thailand, Thai misdemeanours are often rewarded with a judicial kicking, which of course is never reported inside Thailand to preserve the self-esteem of the Thai nation, same as the CP has been described as a ‘Thai national’ in that awful rag the Nation, to avoid loss of face (http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2011/07/16/national/Kasit-seeks-a-meeting-with-German-deputy-FM-over-i-30160380.html).
It would be nice to see Thais get their come-uppance more often, and this episode, featuring the aircraft toy of perhaps the most loathed and detested person in Thailand is a good start, hopefully it won’t fall in a heap.
Little by little, Thais are being exposed over recent years as having more than their fare share of corruption, cheating and thieving among the citizenry and the government and the bureaucracy, but they seemingly aren’t bright enough to understand that sooner or later, their bottom line will suffer as a consequence of this moral deficit.
Plane audacity in Thai dispute
Ralph Kramden #28
You can find it here: http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2011/07/15/national/Thailands-making-all-efforts-to-end-aircraft-spat–30160340.html
Thai research grants for Aussies
Stuart,
Send the application and you will find out. It’s easier to say, let’s act.
Plane audacity in Thai dispute
OK, I looked it up.
Boeing 737 – used price-
5-10 years is still considered almost new, so the price would be around $45 million if you only buy one. Add another $2-5 million per year for maintenance, fuel, wages etc
Plane audacity in Thai dispute
A wise farang once said “Only invest in Thailand what you can afford to loose.”
Thousands of people have been stung by loosing money in Thailand. The Thais are masters of avoiding responsibility, accountability and above all have no shame when it comes to ripping people off.
The attitude is just like one respected Thai politician’s view
“I don’t respect Farangs.”
Plane audacity in Thai dispute
Google translate offers this magnificent opening sentence for the Spiegel piece:
“Despite all the efforts of Thailand to continue sticking it to the bailiff of the cuckoo.”
Plane audacity in Thai dispute
Ownership?
Who bought this aircraft?
Who pays the operating costs, royal outfitting, insurance, staff, fuel, maintenance, landing fees, storage, catering, entertainment, depreciation, etc.?
This should be interesting.
Plane audacity in Thai dispute
Haha…. this story gets more and more funny.
Poor guy. He just did his job and now he is not allowed to come to Thailand for a private holiday… hehe…
In Germany as rightly said above the courts are independent from the government. 😉