“Does the Kingdom of Thailand oppress its people ((similar to Libya, Syria or Egypt) with an elitist political system/culture that the recent Y2010 Red Shirts call for radical change BY VIOLENT MEANS (again similar to the recent violent upheavals at Libya, Syria and Egypt) justified?”
(Vichai N – May 21, 2011)
“After 18 days of unrelenting expanding massive Egyptian peaceful protests demanding transformational change, Mubarak (in power for 30 years) resigns, transfers his powers to the military (is that counted as a ‘coup’ gentlemen), and bloodshed on the streets of Cairo was thankfully avoided. But Egypt is a police state and the world was ecstatic at the success of Egypt’s People Power. Conclusion: A successful popular peaceful street protest at Egypt to remove Mubarak.“ *
(Vichai N – Feb 12, 2011)
Ah well, maybe there’s more than one Vichai N out there….. That would explain a lot.
I posted the Reuters report. Your beef is with that author, not me.
Ralph I thought I was highlighting the bits of the Amsterdam report used by the Reuters reporter. I didn’t think I gave you the authorship of it. If I suggested that I apologise.
And Goebbels was also involved in the Reichstag fire perhaps?
I was always under the impression that the Nazis did do it. Is there some revisionism in Wikipedia?
You see Ralph when you write like this:
On this thread, my position has been to simply assert that the HRW report, like the Amsterdam one…
You are comparing apples and oranges. Amsterdam’s report is paid for by one of the contestants. HRW’s is not, unless you want to make the criticism that it’s biased because they hate Thaksin too much.
Amsterdam’s report is no more independent than the one the one the government will produce, whichever party wins the election. People like HRW and AI are all we have to go on if we are looking for the unbiased viewpoint.
It is in a footnote. The implications of putting this in a footnote can be drawn by others.
So let’s have a bit of honesty Ralph. Spit it out. Do you think the HRW report is dishonest?
Is the HRW report the definitive report we have all been waiting for?
I think not. It seems to me the HRW is most concerned with the human rights abuses perpetrated by the government. So they had to try to perform a balancing act so as not to have the report completely rejected by the government.
The fact that the Military/ Abhisit government are reluctant to initiate a full independent inquiry says a lot to me. Well they are not going to investigate themselves are they?
Les Abbey says Taksin was willing to sacrifice his supporters. Sacrifice to who, the mad dog Military? seems the military was more than willing to oblige.
Perhaps what you lot derisively dismiss as groveling is a show of respect freely given?
But I forget myself, the bulk here are foreign academics, so of course you must know far more about the subject than mere Thais.
What do you want to abolish next? Respect for Monks? Paying respect to the Buddha image?
Just because an action is not performed in your perfect, utopian (in your eyes) societies does not mean it is wrong in others.
Perhaps a little respect for people who are not ashamed to show respect would be in order here?
In response to No. 3 above. Yes, HRW does mention some of the deaths and the wounds they suffered. It is in a footnote. The implications of putting this in a footnote can be drawn by others.
Les at No. 10: I posted the Reuters report. Your beef is with that author, not me. And Goebbels was also involved in the Reichstag fire perhaps? Wikipedia has a disputed entry on that, nearly 80 years later. I am more than willing to accept that some red shirts burned some buildings in anger and as vengeance. Why would that be difficult to fathom? But, at the same time, given the impressive impunity enjoyed by the armed forces of the Thai state and their long involvement in acts as provocateurs (as Tarrin says at No. 12), few should be surprised to see it working to send clear messages to its own “side.” A bit of fear is a big part of generating support for the established regime.
Is HRW impartial and independent? I posted on this at another thread – the Amsterdam one – my point was made there. On this thread, my position has been to simply assert that the HRW report, like the Amsterdam one, and like those that are promised in the future, need to be read with a critical eye in building a picture of events that will forever remain a partial view of the reality. Hopefully one that is not “bible,” yet more complete.
Chris Baker is right. Yes, as someone said way up in this thread, for PMs, it is Prem who set the new standard. But was there a “reintroduction”, officially, of grovelling prostration? I think there was continued prostration after 1932, most especially for palace officials. If you can get through the home movies of the current king getting out and about early in his reign you see prostration. I think the point is that it has become required in recent decades. Just like standing for the king’s anthem in movies (some might remember when it was changed from the end of the movies because no one took any notice and streamed out; that might have been after 1976 as well). Why has it become a requirement? The answer seems pretty clear.
“’Oh my friends,’ he sometimes cried in a moment of inspiration, ‘you can’t imagine the sadness and resentment that fill your soul to overflowing every time a great idea you have long revered as sacred is taken up by some bunglers who drag it out into the street to fools like themselves, and you suddenly come across it in the flea-market, unrecognizable, bespattered with mud, set up in a ridiculous fashion, at an absurd angle, without proportion, without harmony, the plaything of stupid children!’” – Dostoevsky, “the Devils”
I think as soon as ‘UDD apologists brigade’ cease their charade about (hah!) peaceful Red+Black Shirts movement, then we can move forward to the real political issue; e.g.:
Does the Kingdom of Thailand oppress its people ((similar to Libya, Syria or Egypt) with an elitist political system/culture that the recent Y2010 Red Shirts call for radical change BY VIOLENT MEANS (again similar to the recent violent upheavals at Libya, Syria and Egypt) justified?
LesAbbey, how has the blackshirts benefited the reds?
The difference the armed ‘men in black’ made was the difference between the 2009 and 2010 protest. In 2009 the army had managed to roll up the UDD protest within 24 hours of taking action. So what was the benefit to the red shirts? It was they were still there on April 11th.
So that leaves us with one big question. Do we believe that Thaksin Shinawatra would be willing to sacrifice so many lives to get a political outcome he wanted? You will have to make up your own mind on that I’m afraid.
Comment from Chris Baker: There are bits and pieces on Khrong in Thai sources, but not much in English. One short but interesting piece is in Louis E. Lomax, Thailand: The War That Is, the War That Will Be. Lomax was an American journalist who came to Thailand in 1966. The book predicts that communism will spread from Indochina to Thailand because the conditions are ripe. Lomax sets the scene very dramatically with an image of “Rassamee,” the nom de guerre of the “beautiful daughter” of Khrong and a “brilliant student”, leading the communist rebels in the Phuphan range after her father’s execution. Lomax has a short biographic sketch of Khrong. Here is a scan from the book.
“Les, as you predicated when the HRW report first came out, there will be little willingness from the UDD apologist brigade to engage any rational discussion.”
Not this again….. So – just who are the “UDD apologist brigade” here? Are these individuals just seen as the equivalent of a soccer-team supporters’ “firm”? It’s really tedious not to say glibly insulting to NM posters to fling these terms around anytime that there’s either a volume of posts tackling someone on the issues point-by-point or now a lack of posts – rather ignoring the fact that most of the points have long been discussed into the ground here. Ralph Kramden posted two very lengthy comments. Should others now re-state the same points from those and from previous posts but re-word them a bit – and maybe add a couple of other minutiae so that the extra posts just look a bit different?
LesAbbey’s views (and slick style) are very well-known through being represented here so often. There’s a limit to how many times people can be bothered to go on repeating the same responses to them.
Lack of renewed/repeated response = “Gotcha”? In Hollywood trial movies, maybe…..
Yes if I recall correctly, Prem was the first general that got on this knee. Before that the military was seen as major shareholder (therefore, no explicit act of respect so on) but during and after Prem, they retract to be the minor shareholder.
Tarrin, according to Don Sambandaraksa (experienced IT writer & ex Bangkok Post “Database” columnist), there may be a more basic exercise going on – given that the sticky-fingered BJT are involved in the purchasing. As so often – follow the money…..
He wrote a piece about this situation at http://www.amitiae.com/?p=2843 – and I then asked him if he could expand on the “why” of what was going on. His reply was posted as a comment under the article and here’s the most relevant part:
“I think it would be safe to guess that the only reason that replacement computers have not been procured is that the, ahem, minor issues of payment have not yet been resolved rather than any ulterior, wider ranging motive. The best thing about backing a critical project into a crisis is that when in crisis mode, emergency budgets can be made without proper scrutiny.”
As he says, he can’t/doesn’t claim to be sure – but that’s his bet. FWIW, he did have the reputation of being quite yellow/anti-Thaksin while at the Bangkok Post.
It’s refreshing to see a report that does not seek to exonerate one side or another, with most other recounts of events being something of a liar’s contest.
I watched SET burn and the Sirikit subway entry smashed, among other things. Later on the electricity building. As far as those are concerned it was a fairly normal mob reaction IMHO. They weren’t going to go home for a quiet cup of tea and a lie down.
Does the ‘Jompol(Grand general)’ title of any significant? That title automatically makes you undisputed supreme commander of all forces. After Sarit’s death, it seemed that the only one who can hold that title is the king himself. Even Prem hasn’t got his hands on that rank.
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HRW fires a few grenades
c17
“Does the Kingdom of Thailand oppress its people ((similar to Libya, Syria or Egypt) with an elitist political system/culture that the recent Y2010 Red Shirts call for radical change BY VIOLENT MEANS (again similar to the recent violent upheavals at Libya, Syria and Egypt) justified?”
(Vichai N – May 21, 2011)
“After 18 days of unrelenting expanding massive Egyptian peaceful protests demanding transformational change, Mubarak (in power for 30 years) resigns, transfers his powers to the military (is that counted as a ‘coup’ gentlemen), and bloodshed on the streets of Cairo was thankfully avoided. But Egypt is a police state and the world was ecstatic at the success of Egypt’s People Power. Conclusion: A successful popular peaceful street protest at Egypt to remove Mubarak.“ *
(Vichai N – Feb 12, 2011)
Ah well, maybe there’s more than one Vichai N out there….. That would explain a lot.
* http://www.newmandala.org/2011/02/09/coup-talk-in-thailand/#comment-748787
HRW fires a few grenades
Ralph Kramden – 18
I posted the Reuters report. Your beef is with that author, not me.
Ralph I thought I was highlighting the bits of the Amsterdam report used by the Reuters reporter. I didn’t think I gave you the authorship of it. If I suggested that I apologise.
And Goebbels was also involved in the Reichstag fire perhaps?
I was always under the impression that the Nazis did do it. Is there some revisionism in Wikipedia?
You see Ralph when you write like this:
On this thread, my position has been to simply assert that the HRW report, like the Amsterdam one…
You are comparing apples and oranges. Amsterdam’s report is paid for by one of the contestants. HRW’s is not, unless you want to make the criticism that it’s biased because they hate Thaksin too much.
Amsterdam’s report is no more independent than the one the one the government will produce, whichever party wins the election. People like HRW and AI are all we have to go on if we are looking for the unbiased viewpoint.
It is in a footnote. The implications of putting this in a footnote can be drawn by others.
So let’s have a bit of honesty Ralph. Spit it out. Do you think the HRW report is dishonest?
Chulalongkorn abolished prostration
Soonuk Dum ,
Just think for a second , and ask your self just one question : do these people have a choice or not .
“Vote No” logic flawed
Maybe someone should explain to those yellow morons that you can vote No only at a referendum, not at a general election .
HRW fires a few grenades
Is the HRW report the definitive report we have all been waiting for?
I think not. It seems to me the HRW is most concerned with the human rights abuses perpetrated by the government. So they had to try to perform a balancing act so as not to have the report completely rejected by the government.
The fact that the Military/ Abhisit government are reluctant to initiate a full independent inquiry says a lot to me. Well they are not going to investigate themselves are they?
Les Abbey says Taksin was willing to sacrifice his supporters. Sacrifice to who, the mad dog Military? seems the military was more than willing to oblige.
Chulalongkorn abolished prostration
Perhaps what you lot derisively dismiss as groveling is a show of respect freely given?
But I forget myself, the bulk here are foreign academics, so of course you must know far more about the subject than mere Thais.
What do you want to abolish next? Respect for Monks? Paying respect to the Buddha image?
Just because an action is not performed in your perfect, utopian (in your eyes) societies does not mean it is wrong in others.
Perhaps a little respect for people who are not ashamed to show respect would be in order here?
HRW fires a few grenades
In response to No. 3 above. Yes, HRW does mention some of the deaths and the wounds they suffered. It is in a footnote. The implications of putting this in a footnote can be drawn by others.
Les at No. 10: I posted the Reuters report. Your beef is with that author, not me. And Goebbels was also involved in the Reichstag fire perhaps? Wikipedia has a disputed entry on that, nearly 80 years later. I am more than willing to accept that some red shirts burned some buildings in anger and as vengeance. Why would that be difficult to fathom? But, at the same time, given the impressive impunity enjoyed by the armed forces of the Thai state and their long involvement in acts as provocateurs (as Tarrin says at No. 12), few should be surprised to see it working to send clear messages to its own “side.” A bit of fear is a big part of generating support for the established regime.
Is HRW impartial and independent? I posted on this at another thread – the Amsterdam one – my point was made there. On this thread, my position has been to simply assert that the HRW report, like the Amsterdam one, and like those that are promised in the future, need to be read with a critical eye in building a picture of events that will forever remain a partial view of the reality. Hopefully one that is not “bible,” yet more complete.
Chulalongkorn abolished prostration
Chris Baker is right. Yes, as someone said way up in this thread, for PMs, it is Prem who set the new standard. But was there a “reintroduction”, officially, of grovelling prostration? I think there was continued prostration after 1932, most especially for palace officials. If you can get through the home movies of the current king getting out and about early in his reign you see prostration. I think the point is that it has become required in recent decades. Just like standing for the king’s anthem in movies (some might remember when it was changed from the end of the movies because no one took any notice and streamed out; that might have been after 1976 as well). Why has it become a requirement? The answer seems pretty clear.
Selth on Burma’s weapons
“’Oh my friends,’ he sometimes cried in a moment of inspiration, ‘you can’t imagine the sadness and resentment that fill your soul to overflowing every time a great idea you have long revered as sacred is taken up by some bunglers who drag it out into the street to fools like themselves, and you suddenly come across it in the flea-market, unrecognizable, bespattered with mud, set up in a ridiculous fashion, at an absurd angle, without proportion, without harmony, the plaything of stupid children!’” – Dostoevsky, “the Devils”
HRW fires a few grenades
I think as soon as ‘UDD apologists brigade’ cease their charade about (hah!) peaceful Red+Black Shirts movement, then we can move forward to the real political issue; e.g.:
Does the Kingdom of Thailand oppress its people ((similar to Libya, Syria or Egypt) with an elitist political system/culture that the recent Y2010 Red Shirts call for radical change BY VIOLENT MEANS (again similar to the recent violent upheavals at Libya, Syria and Egypt) justified?
HRW fires a few grenades
leeyiankun – 13
LesAbbey, how has the blackshirts benefited the reds?
The difference the armed ‘men in black’ made was the difference between the 2009 and 2010 protest. In 2009 the army had managed to roll up the UDD protest within 24 hours of taking action. So what was the benefit to the red shirts? It was they were still there on April 11th.
So that leaves us with one big question. Do we believe that Thaksin Shinawatra would be willing to sacrifice so many lives to get a political outcome he wanted? You will have to make up your own mind on that I’m afraid.
Khrong Chandawong remembered
Comment from Chris Baker: There are bits and pieces on Khrong in Thai sources, but not much in English. One short but interesting piece is in Louis E. Lomax, Thailand: The War That Is, the War That Will Be. Lomax was an American journalist who came to Thailand in 1966. The book predicts that communism will spread from Indochina to Thailand because the conditions are ripe. Lomax sets the scene very dramatically with an image of “Rassamee,” the nom de guerre of the “beautiful daughter” of Khrong and a “brilliant student”, leading the communist rebels in the Phuphan range after her father’s execution. Lomax has a short biographic sketch of Khrong. Here is a scan from the book.
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SteveCM: Whilst plausible, that answer from Don seems a standard PAD response http://www.facebook.com/smartbrain?ref=ts
Sounds to me that Tarrin is right to at least be concerned about what is going on.
HRW fires a few grenades
c11
“Les, as you predicated when the HRW report first came out, there will be little willingness from the UDD apologist brigade to engage any rational discussion.”
Not this again….. So – just who are the “UDD apologist brigade” here? Are these individuals just seen as the equivalent of a soccer-team supporters’ “firm”? It’s really tedious not to say glibly insulting to NM posters to fling these terms around anytime that there’s either a volume of posts tackling someone on the issues point-by-point or now a lack of posts – rather ignoring the fact that most of the points have long been discussed into the ground here. Ralph Kramden posted two very lengthy comments. Should others now re-state the same points from those and from previous posts but re-word them a bit – and maybe add a couple of other minutiae so that the extra posts just look a bit different?
LesAbbey’s views (and slick style) are very well-known through being represented here so often. There’s a limit to how many times people can be bothered to go on repeating the same responses to them.
Lack of renewed/repeated response = “Gotcha”? In Hollywood trial movies, maybe…..
Chulalongkorn abolished prostration
Thank you Ajarn Chris, for this piece of information.
Chulalongkorn abolished prostration
chris baker – 40
Yes if I recall correctly, Prem was the first general that got on this knee. Before that the military was seen as major shareholder (therefore, no explicit act of respect so on) but during and after Prem, they retract to be the minor shareholder.
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c27
Tarrin, according to Don Sambandaraksa (experienced IT writer & ex Bangkok Post “Database” columnist), there may be a more basic exercise going on – given that the sticky-fingered BJT are involved in the purchasing. As so often – follow the money…..
He wrote a piece about this situation at http://www.amitiae.com/?p=2843 – and I then asked him if he could expand on the “why” of what was going on. His reply was posted as a comment under the article and here’s the most relevant part:
“I think it would be safe to guess that the only reason that replacement computers have not been procured is that the, ahem, minor issues of payment have not yet been resolved rather than any ulterior, wider ranging motive. The best thing about backing a critical project into a crisis is that when in crisis mode, emergency budgets can be made without proper scrutiny.”
As he says, he can’t/doesn’t claim to be sure – but that’s his bet. FWIW, he did have the reputation of being quite yellow/anti-Thaksin while at the Bangkok Post.
Agen DominoQQ Online Paling Populer
Tarrin, #27
Of course the main purpose is not to allow Pheu Thai to win and military-backed abhisit will return to power.
Besides, look at Bangkok Post’s report that Yingluck may be disqualified. Why the ammat are so scared of losing ?
HRW fires a few grenades
It’s refreshing to see a report that does not seek to exonerate one side or another, with most other recounts of events being something of a liar’s contest.
I watched SET burn and the Sirikit subway entry smashed, among other things. Later on the electricity building. As far as those are concerned it was a fairly normal mob reaction IMHO. They weren’t going to go home for a quiet cup of tea and a lie down.
Chulalongkorn abolished prostration
Does the ‘Jompol(Grand general)’ title of any significant? That title automatically makes you undisputed supreme commander of all forces. After Sarit’s death, it seemed that the only one who can hold that title is the king himself. Even Prem hasn’t got his hands on that rank.