your question: Chula a “world class” university?……..has anyone from Chula ever spent any time at a real world class university like MIT?
My response: Open your eyes and use a simple instrument called GOOGLE you will find more information. An example is Dr. Atiwong Suchato, Ph.D.(M.I.T.) from the engineering faculty.
OK?
Your question: Where not one single student is there because he is from a rich family, from a family with a “royal” connection, or from a family with a “name”…….
My point: Really? Do you think those who go to MIT or other world class university? I suggest you to read a book called “The Entreprise University” by Prof. Simon Marginson and come back for a debate with me.
Really? It is about love of Thailand for me. As a Thai academic working in Australia, I really hope to promote understanding and knowledge about Thailand at different levels and aspects (not only political science and governance in Thailand). Having said that, I HAVE NOT said that we will not discuss the political science of Thailand.
Is it clear for you?
Being a convener, what push me to promote this conference is a pure love of this area of study and I am hurt to see someone (whom can’t even disclose his/her identity) attact or call for the attack of the conference.
Academic Freedom ? Robustness of scrutiny? Do you TRULY understand this issue?
Given that you stated that there is no topic that is not allowed to be presented, i really do not see any reason for a “boycott”.
And personally, i am tired of hearing the magic word “boycott” as the problem solution for everything. I believe in engaging in communication. A big problem of the present political mess here is collapse of communication and mistrust. A boycott, especially of an academic conference, will only further the polarization process, as one more avenue of communication will be lost.
For me, i have always wanted my work to be part of the solution, and not part of the problem. And therefore it was my policy since i began 5 years ago that i will speak with anybody that will speak with me – be it Red Shirts, Yellow Shirts, police, or military (there are very few people that i refuse to talk with, and the reasons are not because they have different views than i have, but their behavior and manners). I may not agree with everybody, but i will listen, discuss, debate, and argue at times.
How could i possibly write about the situation here if i refuse to engage with parties and players that are of elementary importance in this conflict, even and especially if their views are different than mine?
“Jim Taylor”:
I really do not get you. Are you an academic or an activist? You have a chance here to present your views, engage directly with people you view as your opponents, be judged by your peers, and let the better argument win, and in the process learn something from others.
What would i give to be able to attend such conferences, to have a employer, or fund, that would sponsor me to go on such trips, to be able to directly discuss (battle of wits, let the better thought process win, etc…) with people that view things differently than me – yet i am just a photographer with extremely limited means and no academic qualifications or background that would enable me to to write a presentation competent enough for such a conference.
Who cares that the Thai embassy co-sponsors the event, and that the state tries to pull academics to its side as long as papers of every subject matter can be presented, and the event is open to critics of the state?
I cannot say off the top of my head whether the Army arrested some alleged MiB, but DSI/police certainly did, afterwards, and in several cases made quite a display of it
There were 2 notable arrests (which I personally think were more of a stage show) one is a military guy who “claimed” to be Sae Dang right hand man but then after some digging it turned out the guy never serve under Sae Dang and Nong Deer (Sae Dang’s daughter) stated that she never met him before. Then another guy was a red shirt guard. He was the one who was carrying couple of assault rifle the the stage, in one of the famous picture. His occupation was garbage collector and if the military thinks that a 40 years old garbage collector with barely any formal military training could give the mighty Thai Army so much trouble then they should seriously reconsidered themselves.
[…] are those who believe that the HRW report is now the definitive account of what happened during the Bangkok Massacre of April/May 2010 and anyone who dares to offer any critique of it is either a Thaksin stooge or a […]
I have studied and worked at about 5 or 6 universities in total, in USA, UK, Spain and now Thailand. I am not a great scholar myself but certainly know a few good ones. I do see issues at Chula, but I can tell you this much, there are good students there. There are good professors there.
In all unis some students finish just for the sake of passing through Uni with no “Uni culture” passing through them.
That is how it is, yes. However, that happens all over. No just in Chula or Thailand. When people ask if anybody fails in Thai universities, I invite them to check how many get low grades or even fail in British institutions. How hard a degree is, or the university ranking, is subject specific, particularly at graduate level. Actually, the only one where I failed courses or got low grades, so far, was in Spain.
Chula however could push a bit more. Students could take it. No idea why professors do not push harder.
In Thailand people, in general, do not confront others who they think have greater power than them. Furthermore, often, not always, priority is to avoid any complication, even if that means sacrificing “progress”, which nevertheless is highly subjective.
In my case, since I have no power, I do not stand a chance; moreover, when there is a huge language and culture barrier. If one speaks good Thai, it might be different, I guess.
Have you heard about Tilburg Uni? Me neither, ranking 50o or so in a random website I just found. However, no necessarily a bad Uni. Best specialist university in The Netherlands, in Elseviers’s Higher Education Review 2007, 2008, 2009 and 2010 and top 10 in Europe in Shanghai ranking.
My point is that there are many universities out there and we just happen to know very few, basically those we heard about in the movies.
I smiled when I heard the “world-class” comment, but I just think it was an unfortunate comment. Remember, education means business, business is image and Thailand is a lot about that. Isn’t Harvard about that too.
If I am a student or someone else who has a vague or developing academic interest in Thailand, how us it beneficial or fair-minded for those if you who already know a lot about Thailand to interrupt my learning in order to further short-term political agendas? In the longer term, surely as Natt Pimpa says, is it nit important for newcomers to rhe field to engage with, rather than turn backs on Thailand? It would be important for those who could learn at this conference to be exposed to political, human rights etc issues of course. . However surely we all know that Thai politics are dynamic and currently fraught. Is Thailand and Thai literacy not more than it’s contemporary politics? I know little compared with most commentators here , but i do think that is the case.
Just a hypothetical question, if Ji or let say Jakrapob submitted their papers and showed up at the conference and the cocktail party, would the Thai ambassador be bound to send them or report back to MFA so that the arrest can be proceeded?
And Thaksin?
And not completing the rest of my sentence, as follows
“…we first determine whether it deserves to be boycotted or not”…
tells me even more about yours.
By the way, this string is not about the love or hate of Thailand, as you claim. It’s about the integrity and robustness of academic scrutiny. Love and hate has nothing to do with it. I sense you’re letting your own emotions get the better of your claim to academic integrity.
The HRW May 3, 2011 report laid out all the testimonies of foreign and Thai witnesses, mostly foreign journalists who were at the scene during the April-May2010 mayhem. And those testimonies pointed at the trail of deaths/casualties committed by the military but Englishman Andrew could NOT accept the veracity of the testimonies that pointed at the deadly mayhem/arson carried out by the Reds. My my . . . aren’t we selective Mr. Englishman Andrew.
But certain people will insist that Red Shirts were non-violent, the deadly armed and lethal Black Shirts were just tagging along with the Red Shirts but did not belong, Central World arson was not the handiwork of the Reds (but the 35 other buildings arson were Red arson yes?).
But what do Farrelly/Andrew Walker think of the HRW report? Or Nick Nostitz for that matter.
Thank you for your views and some comments that show your deep understanding. Being an academic myself, I support freedom of thinking and belive that this norm will be reflected at the conference.
I hope that people who are interested in Thailand and Thai studies in Melbourne will be able to establish our group and will be the alternative views of socio-political, cultural and technological views of Thailand in Australia….for the LOVE of Thailand…..not HATE.
It will be a tough road for Thais in the coming months. To me, what we should watch is after-match of the election. Who will form the coalition party and how will they establish the government?
“The loyalty or disloyalty problem will continue to haunt the Pheu Thai Party and Thaksin himself during the electioneering period and also after the election. Unless this question is resolved to the satisfaction of the establishment, the military in particular…”
I think the ‘loyalty or disloyalty problem’ is a red herring, that the ‘establishment and military in particular’ are constitutionally incapable of satisfaction with a popularly elected government independent of themselves and, not wanting to say so outright, have instead drug the monarchy into the center ring of their political circus one more time.
The ‘problem’ sits squarely in the laps of the ‘establishment and military in particular’… it’s not their country, although they think it is; the country belongs to the people of Thailand, who will eventually gain control of it.
All the ‘establishment and military in particular’ can do between now and then is to continue their murderous and disruptive tactics. Or give it up. They need to give it up.
I have no problem and support academic collegiality fully it is only the conditions under which this happens. The Thai emabssy financially supporting this event (if that is indeed the case) under the present social, economic and political fiasco in thailand needs questioning. BTW/Imposing an Academic Boycott against apartheid in Sout Africa (signed by 496 university professors and lecturers from 34 British Universities) in the early 1960s had a considerable contribution to forcing regime change. Dont think for one moment that the “elections” are going to solve anything. They will not. Realistically though, an academic boycott is not going to happen for Thailand because (a) the state propaganda machine has been so effective in convincing people over the past few years that it is an equal contest, and that Thaksin is essentially evil (means end justification) and that (b) most middle-roaders think it not that important who actually wins in the end, as long as their life is not dramatically affected (they are not even sure who are the “amaat”, or even about the social and historical implications of this regime). The brief incarceration of Dr Suthachai Yimprasert last year saw immediate mobilization of collegial support as indeed the recent threats against Dr Somsak Jeamtheerasakul (both history lecturers). Commendable as it was, it was at best a position of reaction.
What do they mean by PT works just for Thailand? where do you draw the line for “work for Thailand” ? maybe someone has to really talk about what “Thailand” is.
As for election, I still very much pessimistic about what will happen, most of the fundamental problem still remain unsolved and the weak executive branch will not be able to do anything.
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University rankings from Chula’s perspective
To Alex,
To answer to your question
your question: Chula a “world class” university?……..has anyone from Chula ever spent any time at a real world class university like MIT?
My response: Open your eyes and use a simple instrument called GOOGLE you will find more information. An example is Dr. Atiwong Suchato, Ph.D.(M.I.T.) from the engineering faculty.
OK?
Your question: Where not one single student is there because he is from a rich family, from a family with a “royal” connection, or from a family with a “name”…….
My point: Really? Do you think those who go to MIT or other world class university? I suggest you to read a book called “The Entreprise University” by Prof. Simon Marginson and come back for a debate with me.
Thai Studies conference in Melbourne
Stuart,
Really? It is about love of Thailand for me. As a Thai academic working in Australia, I really hope to promote understanding and knowledge about Thailand at different levels and aspects (not only political science and governance in Thailand). Having said that, I HAVE NOT said that we will not discuss the political science of Thailand.
Is it clear for you?
Being a convener, what push me to promote this conference is a pure love of this area of study and I am hurt to see someone (whom can’t even disclose his/her identity) attact or call for the attack of the conference.
Academic Freedom ? Robustness of scrutiny? Do you TRULY understand this issue?
I look forward to see you at the conference.
Thai Studies conference in Melbourne
“Nattavud Pimpa”:
Given that you stated that there is no topic that is not allowed to be presented, i really do not see any reason for a “boycott”.
And personally, i am tired of hearing the magic word “boycott” as the problem solution for everything. I believe in engaging in communication. A big problem of the present political mess here is collapse of communication and mistrust. A boycott, especially of an academic conference, will only further the polarization process, as one more avenue of communication will be lost.
For me, i have always wanted my work to be part of the solution, and not part of the problem. And therefore it was my policy since i began 5 years ago that i will speak with anybody that will speak with me – be it Red Shirts, Yellow Shirts, police, or military (there are very few people that i refuse to talk with, and the reasons are not because they have different views than i have, but their behavior and manners). I may not agree with everybody, but i will listen, discuss, debate, and argue at times.
How could i possibly write about the situation here if i refuse to engage with parties and players that are of elementary importance in this conflict, even and especially if their views are different than mine?
“Jim Taylor”:
I really do not get you. Are you an academic or an activist? You have a chance here to present your views, engage directly with people you view as your opponents, be judged by your peers, and let the better argument win, and in the process learn something from others.
What would i give to be able to attend such conferences, to have a employer, or fund, that would sponsor me to go on such trips, to be able to directly discuss (battle of wits, let the better thought process win, etc…) with people that view things differently than me – yet i am just a photographer with extremely limited means and no academic qualifications or background that would enable me to to write a presentation competent enough for such a conference.
Who cares that the Thai embassy co-sponsors the event, and that the state tries to pull academics to its side as long as papers of every subject matter can be presented, and the event is open to critics of the state?
I just don’t get it. Sorry.
Amnesty International and Robert Amsterdam
superanonymous – 76
I cannot say off the top of my head whether the Army arrested some alleged MiB, but DSI/police certainly did, afterwards, and in several cases made quite a display of it
There were 2 notable arrests (which I personally think were more of a stage show) one is a military guy who “claimed” to be Sae Dang right hand man but then after some digging it turned out the guy never serve under Sae Dang and Nong Deer (Sae Dang’s daughter) stated that she never met him before. Then another guy was a red shirt guard. He was the one who was carrying couple of assault rifle the the stage, in one of the famous picture. His occupation was garbage collector and if the military thinks that a 40 years old garbage collector with barely any formal military training could give the mighty Thai Army so much trouble then they should seriously reconsidered themselves.
Bangkok: This is a massacre
[…] are those who believe that the HRW report is now the definitive account of what happened during the Bangkok Massacre of April/May 2010 and anyone who dares to offer any critique of it is either a Thaksin stooge or a […]
University rankings from Chula’s perspective
I have studied and worked at about 5 or 6 universities in total, in USA, UK, Spain and now Thailand. I am not a great scholar myself but certainly know a few good ones. I do see issues at Chula, but I can tell you this much, there are good students there. There are good professors there.
In all unis some students finish just for the sake of passing through Uni with no “Uni culture” passing through them.
That is how it is, yes. However, that happens all over. No just in Chula or Thailand. When people ask if anybody fails in Thai universities, I invite them to check how many get low grades or even fail in British institutions. How hard a degree is, or the university ranking, is subject specific, particularly at graduate level. Actually, the only one where I failed courses or got low grades, so far, was in Spain.
Chula however could push a bit more. Students could take it. No idea why professors do not push harder.
In Thailand people, in general, do not confront others who they think have greater power than them. Furthermore, often, not always, priority is to avoid any complication, even if that means sacrificing “progress”, which nevertheless is highly subjective.
In my case, since I have no power, I do not stand a chance; moreover, when there is a huge language and culture barrier. If one speaks good Thai, it might be different, I guess.
Have you heard about Tilburg Uni? Me neither, ranking 50o or so in a random website I just found. However, no necessarily a bad Uni. Best specialist university in The Netherlands, in Elseviers’s Higher Education Review 2007, 2008, 2009 and 2010 and top 10 in Europe in Shanghai ranking.
My point is that there are many universities out there and we just happen to know very few, basically those we heard about in the movies.
I smiled when I heard the “world-class” comment, but I just think it was an unfortunate comment. Remember, education means business, business is image and Thailand is a lot about that. Isn’t Harvard about that too.
Regards
Javier
Thai Studies conference in Melbourne
Apologies, many typos on iPhone!
Thai Studies conference in Melbourne
If I am a student or someone else who has a vague or developing academic interest in Thailand, how us it beneficial or fair-minded for those if you who already know a lot about Thailand to interrupt my learning in order to further short-term political agendas? In the longer term, surely as Natt Pimpa says, is it nit important for newcomers to rhe field to engage with, rather than turn backs on Thailand? It would be important for those who could learn at this conference to be exposed to political, human rights etc issues of course. . However surely we all know that Thai politics are dynamic and currently fraught. Is Thailand and Thai literacy not more than it’s contemporary politics? I know little compared with most commentators here , but i do think that is the case.
Thai Studies conference in Melbourne
Just a hypothetical question, if Ji or let say Jakrapob submitted their papers and showed up at the conference and the cocktail party, would the Thai ambassador be bound to send them or report back to MFA so that the arrest can be proceeded?
And Thaksin?
Thailand at the Limit
Just checking whether Podcast of the conference will be coming on line soon… any guess as to when available?
Thai Studies conference in Melbourne
Nattavud Pimpa
And not completing the rest of my sentence, as follows
“…we first determine whether it deserves to be boycotted or not”…
tells me even more about yours.
By the way, this string is not about the love or hate of Thailand, as you claim. It’s about the integrity and robustness of academic scrutiny. Love and hate has nothing to do with it. I sense you’re letting your own emotions get the better of your claim to academic integrity.
Amnesty International and Robert Amsterdam
I give up.
The HRW May 3, 2011 report laid out all the testimonies of foreign and Thai witnesses, mostly foreign journalists who were at the scene during the April-May2010 mayhem. And those testimonies pointed at the trail of deaths/casualties committed by the military but Englishman Andrew could NOT accept the veracity of the testimonies that pointed at the deadly mayhem/arson carried out by the Reds. My my . . . aren’t we selective Mr. Englishman Andrew.
But certain people will insist that Red Shirts were non-violent, the deadly armed and lethal Black Shirts were just tagging along with the Red Shirts but did not belong, Central World arson was not the handiwork of the Reds (but the 35 other buildings arson were Red arson yes?).
But what do Farrelly/Andrew Walker think of the HRW report? Or Nick Nostitz for that matter.
NM silence about the HRW report sickens me.
Thai Studies conference in Melbourne
To Nick,
Thank you for your views and some comments that show your deep understanding. Being an academic myself, I support freedom of thinking and belive that this norm will be reflected at the conference.
I hope that people who are interested in Thailand and Thai studies in Melbourne will be able to establish our group and will be the alternative views of socio-political, cultural and technological views of Thailand in Australia….for the LOVE of Thailand…..not HATE.
Speculation on Thai election outcomes
It will be a tough road for Thais in the coming months. To me, what we should watch is after-match of the election. Who will form the coalition party and how will they establish the government?
Also, the role of ASEAN freinds can be expected.
Thai Studies conference in Melbourne
and to Stuart….. your statement
“May I suggest that before we go down extreme route of calling for a boycot..”
really tell me a lot about your academic integrity.
Speculation on Thai election outcomes
“The loyalty or disloyalty problem will continue to haunt the Pheu Thai Party and Thaksin himself during the electioneering period and also after the election. Unless this question is resolved to the satisfaction of the establishment, the military in particular…”
I think the ‘loyalty or disloyalty problem’ is a red herring, that the ‘establishment and military in particular’ are constitutionally incapable of satisfaction with a popularly elected government independent of themselves and, not wanting to say so outright, have instead drug the monarchy into the center ring of their political circus one more time.
The ‘problem’ sits squarely in the laps of the ‘establishment and military in particular’… it’s not their country, although they think it is; the country belongs to the people of Thailand, who will eventually gain control of it.
All the ‘establishment and military in particular’ can do between now and then is to continue their murderous and disruptive tactics. Or give it up. They need to give it up.
Thai Studies conference in Melbourne
Here is the list of Thai studies topics that are not open for discussion at the conference:
1.
Yes…that’s it!
I really hope to see you at the conference for fruitful and open discussion on Thai studies.
Amnesty International and Robert Amsterdam
It’s not a civil war.
Only one side was obliged to use catapults.
http://bit.ly/iZtm9B
David. Not Goliath
Thai Studies conference in Melbourne
I have no problem and support academic collegiality fully it is only the conditions under which this happens. The Thai emabssy financially supporting this event (if that is indeed the case) under the present social, economic and political fiasco in thailand needs questioning. BTW/Imposing an Academic Boycott against apartheid in Sout Africa (signed by 496 university professors and lecturers from 34 British Universities) in the early 1960s had a considerable contribution to forcing regime change. Dont think for one moment that the “elections” are going to solve anything. They will not. Realistically though, an academic boycott is not going to happen for Thailand because (a) the state propaganda machine has been so effective in convincing people over the past few years that it is an equal contest, and that Thaksin is essentially evil (means end justification) and that (b) most middle-roaders think it not that important who actually wins in the end, as long as their life is not dramatically affected (they are not even sure who are the “amaat”, or even about the social and historical implications of this regime). The brief incarceration of Dr Suthachai Yimprasert last year saw immediate mobilization of collegial support as indeed the recent threats against Dr Somsak Jeamtheerasakul (both history lecturers). Commendable as it was, it was at best a position of reaction.
Speculation on Thai election outcomes
What do they mean by PT works just for Thailand? where do you draw the line for “work for Thailand” ? maybe someone has to really talk about what “Thailand” is.
As for election, I still very much pessimistic about what will happen, most of the fundamental problem still remain unsolved and the weak executive branch will not be able to do anything.