“..It does help when mass murders goes unpunished repeatedly with no culprits to pin it on. But judgement day is coming, lest we be prepare to speak the unspeakable, the country will surely end up in flames…”
One never knows what will come out of an interview. The AFP article attributes two comments to me: that political ties between Laos and Vietnam will be strengthened; and that the greater the Chinese presence, the more nervous the Vietnamese become. Nowhere do I say that the new Politburo line up represents the outcome of a struggle between pro-Vietnamese and pro-Chinese factions.
My views on the new Politburo are given in the following extracts from emails sent in reply to recent questions.
1. A brief comment: there is much hype over competition for influence in Laos between China and Vietnam, and divisions in the Lao Politburo between those favouring one or the other. Every time I am asked to comment on this I try to hose it down. Balance extends to China and Vietnam.
2. For what it is worth, my take on the new Politburo is as follows:
Military still influential, but a net gain for Party apparatchiks (all three new members have a Party background);
Minority representation remains relatively strong. (Bounphone Bouttanavong is Phu Noy; Madame Pany has risen in the rankings; Asang is still there)
Southern dominance since Khamtai no longer applies (all three new members are northerners, from in order Oudomxai, Phongsali and Huaphan)
The Vietnamese will be pleased, but the Chinese don’t care: they will get what they want through their economic muscle. I do not believe there is any division in the Lao Party between pro-Vietnamese and pro-Chinese. They are all well aware of the benefits from balancing the two.
3. The politburo line-up is interesting – military still influential, but gain for the party apparatchiks; northerners balance previous southern dominance; fair minority representation (4 out of 11); and I guess the Vietnamese would be happy with the outcome. I doubt if the Chinese care much! They will get what they want with economic muscle.
The Lao ruling elite well understand that they need to cultivate good relations with both China and Vietnam, and are adept at balancing the two.
This discussion here is sliding slowly towards denigrating a major Buddhism.
Every New Mandala subscriber must realize that the same or anything as described here can be construed from any other existing texts on any existing religion.
Even if no existing texts are found, there are numerous, Reverends, mullahs, abbots, Rabbis, Gurus or plain old academics as in this article and out there willing to revise anything to make hay for themselves for or against other religions.
The truth is:
All major religions enshrine a set of principles to better all its followers.
Buddhism, Christianity and Islam being the major 3.
Those who interpret or translate to otherwise are not followers nor expert.
We have seen more Christians justifying the crusade
A few Islamic fanatics justifying terrorism.
But NEVER any Buddhist justifying any interpretation above.
It makes me laugh,when people think that the Thai military aren’t and haven’t always been the one’s with the guns controlling policy guns and killings.
Thats… Bangkok “Massacre” …Simon and your right (Abhisit) is responsible,not for the “riots” as you mistakenly describe events, but for the bloody slaughter of protesters,journalists and medics last year,as are the Army generals,Prem,the King,Queen or whoever will own up to giving the orders .. and the War on drugs death toll (2500)that was described by the King as “trifle”…yes Thaksin is responsible for that along with the above named.Come on Amnesty’s Ben Zawacki says he prefers the low key approach to tackle the Kings Bhumibols role and support for the WOD,Lese Majeste,Death Penalty,Sanctioning of “MASSACRES” .Why ? Is it working ? ..
“Just one in every 455 people in Burma were internet users in 2009, according to statistics from the United Nations International Telecommunication Union, AFP says.”
That translate to ~ a little more than 10,000 internet user within Myanmar!
Even if it is true does the article put forth reasons other than the restrictive government policy of Myanmar?
Does Amnesty International have the resources to personally visit every single detained dissident on the planet? If you aren’t satisfied maybe it’s time to send them a donation. They do a lot more to pursue human rights than any of your precious “democracy-loving” governments do.
Amnesty have pursued Thai governments of all persuasions over every major abuse. Their recent track record includes (but is not limited to) coverage of:
* Tak Bai massacre (Thaksin administration).
* War on drugs (Thaksin administration).
* Rohinga abandoned at sea (Abhisit administration)
* 2010 Bangkok riots (Abhisit administration)
*
You think it would help their cause to don a red or yellow t-shirt?
I am sorry, but right now i just haven’t got the time to get embroiled in this very complicated discussion, and some of the issues involved touch points that i rather do not discuss in the open, presently.
I report on LM cases and photograph people charged when i have the chance, but it would be too time consuming for me right now to do justice to the complexities (and dangers) involved in this issue in such a discussion here in the internet. Additionally – this is a discussion which is just too uncomfortable for me now. Sorry about that.
I just came back from two of the community radio stations, will not get much sleep because i have to continue working tomorrow. This is for me priority, not campaigning on LM and any other issue.
What’s most amusing to me is that if Zawacki had been on vacation, or somehow AI IS had somehow not even taken notice of it, there is no way the event would have garnered this much attention. Talk about censorship fail…
But Benji really screwed up by admitting that he hasn’t even bothered to read the application. What does that say about his office and its priorities?
[…] There is a comment piece posted over on Political Prisoners in Thailand, as well as an article on New Mandala. The comments section below the New Mandala piece contain some open debate on the issue at hand. […]
Billyd #2, there are things we’d rather not talk about. Things that lurked at the edge of your perception, scary things that best ignored than acknowledge. And Ignorance is a skill we practiced to perfection here in the land of lies.
It does help when mass murders goes unpunished repeatedly with no culprits to pin it on. But judgement day is coming, lest we be prepare to speak the unspeakable, the country will surely end up in flames.
Dear Larren
I think the Buddhist philosophy never advocate for the termination of reproduction. Although there might be individual who decide to stay in the monkhood for the whole life. The fact is that Buddha himself, at least, produced one child in his life. The idea of ending suffering in Buddhism is to end craving and attachment. The only cause to this desire is a kinship and network system. That is why Buddhist morality never advocate for kinship system, but care, equality and reciprocity. Even after his enlightenment, we hardly hear that Buddha treat his family and freind above other beings. The problem today is how to get away from the kinship and network system. In Western country, to some extent due to its betterment of social security system, the kinship and network system was weakened, but actually never disappear. There are so many example if we look carefully on how the system work in Western countries. It is a bit complicated and hidden compared to most of the developing countries where kinship and network system can be seen in its quite primitive way.
According to Princess Sirindhorn’s official diary, she is attending William and Kate’s wedding. In fact the entry has been written using the past tense, as follows:
“By the Royal Command of His Majesty the King and Her Majesty the Queen, Her Royal Highness Princess Maha Chakri Sirindhorn represented Their Majesties the King and Queen to attend the Royal Wedding of Prince William of Wales and Miss Catherine Middleton at the City of London, United Kingdom at the invitation of Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom on 29 April 2011.”
I think Somsak is wise to speak out, to voice his fears. Assassination by the Thai military is a very real possibility. There was a string of assassinations leading up to 6 October 1976, and Somsak is certainly aware of all of them. People here may realize just how lawless and murderous is the regime in control of Thailand, but most of the world does not. Most of the world has no inkling of the number or calibre of the people assassinated by the military leading up to October 6, and the lunatic aggression in Cambodia is a measure of just how deranged, hence capable of anything, are the Thai Army at this point.
I am no expert on the run-up to 6 October, as Somsak is, but I am aware of what happened to Boonsanong Punyodyana (pdf), for instance.
I think it is now Somsak’s judgment that Thailand is again as lunatic and lawless as it was in the days leading up to 6 October. Certainly Abhisit and his civilian front have been swept out of consideration by the forces now ruling the country.
Somsak certainly has my admiration for standing up to these thugs the way he is doing.
I do indeed draw my own conclusions. My point is more that it is a question that more should be asking/discussing and yet it seems to be something largely unaddressed
Quick question – so what do you think about Ben Zawacki asking the MFA for advice? Be interested to read what you think about that.
As for all everyone else’s comments….
Just so you know there is a lot lot more relating to Ben Zawacki that I can’t reveal at the moment.
From all the documents, emails and stuff I’ve seen what has happened is this.
HRW and AI will not take on lese majeste – ever. What I would say in HRW’s defence is they have remained almost completely silent. AI and Zawacki chose, instead, to make the infamous “we can see why” comment.
My view is this. I believe they’ve been told by the government if they do campaign on lese majeste they have to leave Thailand. That’s just a theory but I have some evidence for that (which yes, tiresomely, I can’t reveal – but look at all the cases of LM were clearly there was no call for “revolution” – AI & HRW are completely silent). If that’s the case they really need to tell everyone.
Now, Da T’s case was tricky for AI. Closed trial, evidence can’t be challenged etc, really tough prison sentence for her. Looked like a very clear cut case of human rights abuse to many outsiders.
Ben Zawacki, then relied on the MFA for a translation of the speech that got Da T into trouble to make his decision on Prisoner of Conscience status. He didn’t, by all accounts, get a second opinion (I’ve heard differing views on whether Da T did call for violence – but without proper testing of evidence in an open court it’s a breach of HR anyway as she had no chance to properly defend herself). He also sought further advice from them regarding Da T though the limits of that are harder to define. My assumption is that he then refused to look at independently produced translations which offered a different perspective to the MFA.
So, realising that AI’s position on lese majeste and Da T might be questioned he then went with the MFA’s line which he then used when he visited all the diplomatic missions in Bangkok to explain AI’s position on Da T. He told them that Da T was “violent” and so couldn’t be supported.
This made everyone happy cos it then meant nobody had to grasp the troublesome issue of lese majeste. AI and Ben’s position in Thailand was assured, a diplomatic problem was avoided and everyone breathed a sigh of relief. All thanks to the MFA.
So, while everyone is bickering about Robert Amsterdam, AI Malaysia, Ben Zawacki, the ICC and what have you let’s remember this –
Da Torpedo is imprisoned in deplorable conditions. She did not have an open trial, couldn’t test the evidence laid against her and has been subjected to degrading treatment. She was then, in turn, abandoned by the HR NGOs. Remember that no-one from AI has even been to visit her to check on conditions.
There are real human consequences to AI’s pathetic and partial position in Thailand. And they took this position just so they could continue to work in Thailand, colluded with the Thai government while doing so and then lied to Bangkok’s diplomatic community to cover their own asses.
Impunity is one of the biggest blocks to human rights in Thailand.
The ICC holding a fully independent investigation might go some way to ending that.
Regardless of the source of getting the ICC process started (or will people soon be claiming the ICC is also under Thaksin control?) surely that’s a good thing?
Has anyone else got a better idea?
I mean it’s not like Amsterdam or Thaksin or Abhisit can control the ICC, is it?
Surely AI, who must clearly see that the Thai system of investigation is completely broken, should be pushing for the ICC not just on AV but on Thaksin as well?
I was shocked when I heard that Amnesty was going to entertain the paid PR hack of a known human rights abuser. War on drugs aside, Amnesty also protested the massacre of muslims at Tak Bai under the Thaksin regime where, if I may refresh your memory, 85 people ‘suffocated’ in the back of trucks .
Cancelling the dialogue was the only decent thing to do.
Jim: Do you *seriously* expect people to believe that Amnesty International is part of some anti-red plot? Do you really believe this stuff?
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Doctor in the House – a review by Tom Plate
For a more critical review of this book, read Barry Wain or Ooi Kee Beng’s reviews.
For a critical review of Tom Plate’s book on Mahathir, read Kee Thuan Chye’s take on it.
Thailand at the Limit
“..It does help when mass murders goes unpunished repeatedly with no culprits to pin it on. But judgement day is coming, lest we be prepare to speak the unspeakable, the country will surely end up in flames…”
Sounds just like Malaysia.
Party Congress and National Assembly elections in Laos
One never knows what will come out of an interview. The AFP article attributes two comments to me: that political ties between Laos and Vietnam will be strengthened; and that the greater the Chinese presence, the more nervous the Vietnamese become. Nowhere do I say that the new Politburo line up represents the outcome of a struggle between pro-Vietnamese and pro-Chinese factions.
My views on the new Politburo are given in the following extracts from emails sent in reply to recent questions.
1. A brief comment: there is much hype over competition for influence in Laos between China and Vietnam, and divisions in the Lao Politburo between those favouring one or the other. Every time I am asked to comment on this I try to hose it down. Balance extends to China and Vietnam.
2. For what it is worth, my take on the new Politburo is as follows:
Military still influential, but a net gain for Party apparatchiks (all three new members have a Party background);
Minority representation remains relatively strong. (Bounphone Bouttanavong is Phu Noy; Madame Pany has risen in the rankings; Asang is still there)
Southern dominance since Khamtai no longer applies (all three new members are northerners, from in order Oudomxai, Phongsali and Huaphan)
The Vietnamese will be pleased, but the Chinese don’t care: they will get what they want through their economic muscle. I do not believe there is any division in the Lao Party between pro-Vietnamese and pro-Chinese. They are all well aware of the benefits from balancing the two.
3. The politburo line-up is interesting – military still influential, but gain for the party apparatchiks; northerners balance previous southern dominance; fair minority representation (4 out of 11); and I guess the Vietnamese would be happy with the outcome. I doubt if the Chinese care much! They will get what they want with economic muscle.
The Lao ruling elite well understand that they need to cultivate good relations with both China and Vietnam, and are adept at balancing the two.
Martin Stuart-Fox
Unpopular facts about one of Buddhist philosophy’s most popular doctrines
This discussion here is sliding slowly towards denigrating a major Buddhism.
Every New Mandala subscriber must realize that the same or anything as described here can be construed from any other existing texts on any existing religion.
Even if no existing texts are found, there are numerous, Reverends, mullahs, abbots, Rabbis, Gurus or plain old academics as in this article and out there willing to revise anything to make hay for themselves for or against other religions.
The truth is:
All major religions enshrine a set of principles to better all its followers.
Buddhism, Christianity and Islam being the major 3.
Those who interpret or translate to otherwise are not followers nor expert.
We have seen more Christians justifying the crusade
A few Islamic fanatics justifying terrorism.
But NEVER any Buddhist justifying any interpretation above.
Amnesty International and Robert Amsterdam
It makes me laugh,when people think that the Thai military aren’t and haven’t always been the one’s with the guns controlling policy guns and killings.
Amnesty International and Robert Amsterdam
Thats… Bangkok “Massacre” …Simon and your right (Abhisit) is responsible,not for the “riots” as you mistakenly describe events, but for the bloody slaughter of protesters,journalists and medics last year,as are the Army generals,Prem,the King,Queen or whoever will own up to giving the orders .. and the War on drugs death toll (2500)that was described by the King as “trifle”…yes Thaksin is responsible for that along with the above named.Come on Amnesty’s Ben Zawacki says he prefers the low key approach to tackle the Kings Bhumibols role and support for the WOD,Lese Majeste,Death Penalty,Sanctioning of “MASSACRES” .Why ? Is it working ? ..
New war in Kachin State?
Nich
It is so easy to condemn a well known lousy government that such kind of ridiculous info. is put out there.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-12252158
“Just one in every 455 people in Burma were internet users in 2009, according to statistics from the United Nations International Telecommunication Union, AFP says.”
That translate to ~ a little more than 10,000 internet user within Myanmar!
Even if it is true does the article put forth reasons other than the restrictive government policy of Myanmar?
Amnesty International and Robert Amsterdam
Does Amnesty International have the resources to personally visit every single detained dissident on the planet? If you aren’t satisfied maybe it’s time to send them a donation. They do a lot more to pursue human rights than any of your precious “democracy-loving” governments do.
Amnesty have pursued Thai governments of all persuasions over every major abuse. Their recent track record includes (but is not limited to) coverage of:
* Tak Bai massacre (Thaksin administration).
* War on drugs (Thaksin administration).
* Rohinga abandoned at sea (Abhisit administration)
* 2010 Bangkok riots (Abhisit administration)
*
You think it would help their cause to don a red or yellow t-shirt?
Amnesty International and Robert Amsterdam
“Andrew Spooner”:
I am sorry, but right now i just haven’t got the time to get embroiled in this very complicated discussion, and some of the issues involved touch points that i rather do not discuss in the open, presently.
I report on LM cases and photograph people charged when i have the chance, but it would be too time consuming for me right now to do justice to the complexities (and dangers) involved in this issue in such a discussion here in the internet. Additionally – this is a discussion which is just too uncomfortable for me now. Sorry about that.
I just came back from two of the community radio stations, will not get much sleep because i have to continue working tomorrow. This is for me priority, not campaigning on LM and any other issue.
Amnesty International and Robert Amsterdam
What’s most amusing to me is that if Zawacki had been on vacation, or somehow AI IS had somehow not even taken notice of it, there is no way the event would have garnered this much attention. Talk about censorship fail…
But Benji really screwed up by admitting that he hasn’t even bothered to read the application. What does that say about his office and its priorities?
Amnesty International and Robert Amsterdam
[…] There is a comment piece posted over on Political Prisoners in Thailand, as well as an article on New Mandala. The comments section below the New Mandala piece contain some open debate on the issue at hand. […]
Thailand at the Limit
Billyd #2, there are things we’d rather not talk about. Things that lurked at the edge of your perception, scary things that best ignored than acknowledge. And Ignorance is a skill we practiced to perfection here in the land of lies.
It does help when mass murders goes unpunished repeatedly with no culprits to pin it on. But judgement day is coming, lest we be prepare to speak the unspeakable, the country will surely end up in flames.
New war in Kachin State?
plan B,
Myanmar Citizenry deserve better than the present existing quagmire of military rule.
Please carry on overlooking the elephant in the room or trumpeting on its behalf. Military rule and citizens’ welfare simply do not gel in Burma.
Unpopular facts about one of Buddhist philosophy’s most popular doctrines
Dear Larren
I think the Buddhist philosophy never advocate for the termination of reproduction. Although there might be individual who decide to stay in the monkhood for the whole life. The fact is that Buddha himself, at least, produced one child in his life. The idea of ending suffering in Buddhism is to end craving and attachment. The only cause to this desire is a kinship and network system. That is why Buddhist morality never advocate for kinship system, but care, equality and reciprocity. Even after his enlightenment, we hardly hear that Buddha treat his family and freind above other beings. The problem today is how to get away from the kinship and network system. In Western country, to some extent due to its betterment of social security system, the kinship and network system was weakened, but actually never disappear. There are so many example if we look carefully on how the system work in Western countries. It is a bit complicated and hidden compared to most of the developing countries where kinship and network system can be seen in its quite primitive way.
Right royal histories
According to Princess Sirindhorn’s official diary, she is attending William and Kate’s wedding. In fact the entry has been written using the past tense, as follows:
“By the Royal Command of His Majesty the King and Her Majesty the Queen, Her Royal Highness Princess Maha Chakri Sirindhorn represented Their Majesties the King and Queen to attend the Royal Wedding of Prince William of Wales and Miss Catherine Middleton at the City of London, United Kingdom at the invitation of Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom on 29 April 2011.”
Looks to me like it’s confirmed.
Somsak: “what I’m facing is scary”
I think Somsak is wise to speak out, to voice his fears. Assassination by the Thai military is a very real possibility. There was a string of assassinations leading up to 6 October 1976, and Somsak is certainly aware of all of them. People here may realize just how lawless and murderous is the regime in control of Thailand, but most of the world does not. Most of the world has no inkling of the number or calibre of the people assassinated by the military leading up to October 6, and the lunatic aggression in Cambodia is a measure of just how deranged, hence capable of anything, are the Thai Army at this point.
I am no expert on the run-up to 6 October, as Somsak is, but I am aware of what happened to Boonsanong Punyodyana (pdf), for instance.
I think it is now Somsak’s judgment that Thailand is again as lunatic and lawless as it was in the days leading up to 6 October. Certainly Abhisit and his civilian front have been swept out of consideration by the forces now ruling the country.
Somsak certainly has my admiration for standing up to these thugs the way he is doing.
Crackdown on red media
Tarrin 6
I do indeed draw my own conclusions. My point is more that it is a question that more should be asking/discussing and yet it seems to be something largely unaddressed
Amnesty International and Robert Amsterdam
Nick
Quick question – so what do you think about Ben Zawacki asking the MFA for advice? Be interested to read what you think about that.
As for all everyone else’s comments….
Just so you know there is a lot lot more relating to Ben Zawacki that I can’t reveal at the moment.
From all the documents, emails and stuff I’ve seen what has happened is this.
HRW and AI will not take on lese majeste – ever. What I would say in HRW’s defence is they have remained almost completely silent. AI and Zawacki chose, instead, to make the infamous “we can see why” comment.
My view is this. I believe they’ve been told by the government if they do campaign on lese majeste they have to leave Thailand. That’s just a theory but I have some evidence for that (which yes, tiresomely, I can’t reveal – but look at all the cases of LM were clearly there was no call for “revolution” – AI & HRW are completely silent). If that’s the case they really need to tell everyone.
Now, Da T’s case was tricky for AI. Closed trial, evidence can’t be challenged etc, really tough prison sentence for her. Looked like a very clear cut case of human rights abuse to many outsiders.
Ben Zawacki, then relied on the MFA for a translation of the speech that got Da T into trouble to make his decision on Prisoner of Conscience status. He didn’t, by all accounts, get a second opinion (I’ve heard differing views on whether Da T did call for violence – but without proper testing of evidence in an open court it’s a breach of HR anyway as she had no chance to properly defend herself). He also sought further advice from them regarding Da T though the limits of that are harder to define. My assumption is that he then refused to look at independently produced translations which offered a different perspective to the MFA.
So, realising that AI’s position on lese majeste and Da T might be questioned he then went with the MFA’s line which he then used when he visited all the diplomatic missions in Bangkok to explain AI’s position on Da T. He told them that Da T was “violent” and so couldn’t be supported.
This made everyone happy cos it then meant nobody had to grasp the troublesome issue of lese majeste. AI and Ben’s position in Thailand was assured, a diplomatic problem was avoided and everyone breathed a sigh of relief. All thanks to the MFA.
So, while everyone is bickering about Robert Amsterdam, AI Malaysia, Ben Zawacki, the ICC and what have you let’s remember this –
Da Torpedo is imprisoned in deplorable conditions. She did not have an open trial, couldn’t test the evidence laid against her and has been subjected to degrading treatment. She was then, in turn, abandoned by the HR NGOs. Remember that no-one from AI has even been to visit her to check on conditions.
There are real human consequences to AI’s pathetic and partial position in Thailand. And they took this position just so they could continue to work in Thailand, colluded with the Thai government while doing so and then lied to Bangkok’s diplomatic community to cover their own asses.
Andrew
Amnesty International and Robert Amsterdam
What I don’t get is this….
Impunity is one of the biggest blocks to human rights in Thailand.
The ICC holding a fully independent investigation might go some way to ending that.
Regardless of the source of getting the ICC process started (or will people soon be claiming the ICC is also under Thaksin control?) surely that’s a good thing?
Has anyone else got a better idea?
I mean it’s not like Amsterdam or Thaksin or Abhisit can control the ICC, is it?
Surely AI, who must clearly see that the Thai system of investigation is completely broken, should be pushing for the ICC not just on AV but on Thaksin as well?
Amnesty International and Robert Amsterdam
I was shocked when I heard that Amnesty was going to entertain the paid PR hack of a known human rights abuser. War on drugs aside, Amnesty also protested the massacre of muslims at Tak Bai under the Thaksin regime where, if I may refresh your memory, 85 people ‘suffocated’ in the back of trucks .
Cancelling the dialogue was the only decent thing to do.
Jim: Do you *seriously* expect people to believe that Amnesty International is part of some anti-red plot? Do you really believe this stuff?