How do you really turn this supply off without some sort of banning orders based on electoral laws?
Couple of points why I think political ban is just right out wrong and unconstitutional. First, last time I check our beloved Newin Chidchob was banned from politic for 5 years, does his influence disappear? no, he still around and kicking. Furthermore, can you give me an example of any country in the world that ban politician like Thailand do?
Furthermore, like I said earlier, we got to fix the political structure here, not looking for a hero. Election wouldn’t solve the problem so don’t worry if only the unwanted are there because even if we are to have super man there he wouldn’t be able to do anything.
The Myitsone Dam is a national disgrace. It will soon ignite a nation-wide civil war, if this problem is not addressed in a civilized and legal manner.
The Bureau of Special Investigation (BSI) should investigate which individuals received bribes to approve this stinking project.
International Crisis Group, Asia Society, Chatham House and other think tanks should undertake a case study of lack of “good governance” at the Myitsone Dam project instead of writing useless academic reports.
Chinese investment was once welcomed in Africa. Now they are hated in many African countries. The catalyst that may restore freedom and democracy in Burma is anti-Chinese riots which also ended Suharto’s rule in Indonesia.
Les Abbey 6
Just to go to town on your Pariah analogy.
Pariah dogs are territorial. They roam, scavenge and attack in packs if angered. They have sharp teeth with an infectious bite.
In the western world they are generally swept of the streets and neutered or euthanased.
In Thailand they are rampant, feared and fed out of ignorance and superstition.
Time to call in a vet in my opinion and educate people on how to care for dogs.
Remember. . .A dog is not just for Christmas, it’s for life.
Before you even ask about “uncorrupted politicians and political parties” you have to have a proper democracy with transparency and accountability first.
The problem is Tarrin in this coming election we will see the same old faces, the Chalerms, the Khunpluems, the Chidchobs and such, returned. How do you really turn this supply off without some sort of banning orders based on electoral laws?
Seems to be confirmed, but no major issue in the news. Twitter in “The Nation” mentioned Princess Sirindhorn been send off to the Airport and boarding a plane to London yesterday night.
How do you get clean, uncorrupted politicians and political parties? Could changes in the last two constitutions be pointing the way?
Before you even ask about “uncorrupted politicians and political parties” you have to have a proper democracy with transparency and accountability first. Why do you think the military got so much power that the civilian government can’t do anything about them. Where do you think the military got their power from? In case of Thailand, what are the institutions that never got to account for anything? The constitution is nothing but a pile of paper if the political culture doesn’t yield to it, ain’t you surprised that the Thais are guaranteed a freedom of speech and expression (I think its in article 4 of the 2007 constitution) but we have at least a dozen laws that obviously break the article but then, the constitution court didn’t care to even review the law. That’s why I said even if we are to elect a superman to run the government he would be turn into Lex Luther in no time.
Once we solve that problem the people will be the one who screen out the bad apples (like any other democratic society do), it takes time yes but it has to start from the fundamental.
Elizabeth, I’m not sure what this is all about. So very idealistic. Regimes and morals are not that important really. Look, foreign policy has no room for feminism. It’s all about the pinstripe shirts and Madame Nhus. Why else would anyone bother getting involved?
You see, the problem with Thailand now is not to find the “right guy” but rather to fix the “system”. No matter how much the person is full of ideology or principle, he would not survive long under political environment.
So how to do it Tarrin? Whoever gets elected isn’t going to fix the problem. How do you get clean, uncorrupted politicians and political parties? Could changes in the last two constitutions be pointing the way? If you want to get the military out of politics, or at least make them pariahs if they do interfere, you do need to start with politicians that don’t smell quite as much as ours in Thailand do.
We have seen more Christians justifying the crusade
A few Islamic fanatics justifying terrorism.
But NEVER any Buddhist justifying any interpretation above.
I’m not sure if by “above”, what is meant here is “above” in the comment regarding religious justifications for violent aggression, or “above” in Eisel Mazard’s article, which has nothing to do with violent aggression. However (recognising that this is moving away from the topic of Eisel Mazard’s post), there are numerous examples of Buddhist Kings attempting to justify aggressive violence by appealing to the defence and propagation of the Dhamma. See, here for an example, taken from the life of Sri Lanka’s King Dottagamani, as celebrated in a well know Burmese publication.
How strange. I point out the post was on AI not sharing a platform with Robert Amsterdam. I point out that this would be sensible if they didn’t want to be accused of being a part of a propaganda machine. I say that I don’t agree with AI’s stand on LM. And yet it’s stirred up a few people.
If there was a mistake made, it was that someone in AI Malaysia didn’t spot the Robert Amsterdam connection. For AI sharing a platform with him would be as bad as sharing it with Abhisit or the Thai Army.
It seems the accusation being made is that AI have held back on criticizing the LM law in order to continue having a base in Bangkok. If this is true it’s bad, but there should be some sort of proof of the accusation surely. Perhaps AI or Ben Zawacki would like to answer the insinuation here on NM if they don’t want to talk directly with Andrew Spooner.
Just a quick thought on Da Torpedo which in no way excuses the draconian sentence. She did come across as a Joan of Arc sort of personality looking for martyrdom. So Andrew Spooner, maybe the mystery of those for and against her is following Joan’s path, where wasn’t it was some of the French who sold her to the English and the Catholic Church which sentenced her to death. (Yes you are welcome to correct my rather corrupt take on Joan’s history.)
The “Red Shirt” community radio stations are the major source of news for people living in Isan. They long ago stopped watching the national TV networks. I don’t believe the radio station closures will be accepted without considerable rage and resentment. It was one thing to censor the Red Shirt websites, which really didn’t affect the majority of Red Shirt supporters and after all can be got around with access to the right proxy server, but this is a direct challenge to the Red Shirts and PT party because it is their only remaining mass media way to stay in touch. I don’t believe this crackdown will go unchallenged. At the minimum, I expect there will be mobile, pirate radio stations set up. What with this, the stupid border war with Cambodia, and the harassment of Somsak with LM charges, things have gone pear-shaped very quickly here in Thailand.
No, my questioning of AI has nothing whatsoever to do with the Red Shirts, Thaksin or Robert Amsterdam.
I have been publicly critiquing AI’s stance on Da Torpedo for over 2year. I even went to visit her in prison in February of this year (apparently she has been almost completely ignored by Bangkok’s foreign journalists so I believe I was the first to do so in quite some time – spent an intresting 45mins arguing with the prison guards). I also don’t think I have mentioned the Red Shirts once, anywhere, in any of these critiques of Zawacki and AI.
Who was in government when she was arrested? Thaksin’s PPP.
Who was donating large amounts of money to her every month at the beginning? A key ally of PM Abhisit’s govt.
Complicated, huh, Les? Hard to reduce this into your usual argument,
My point is that if AI can’t do its job properly because of restrictions placed on it by the govt it needs to tell everyone what they are. Not go to that govt for advice and help on deciding whose human rights are being infringed.
Yes, AI do a lot of good work. That shouldn’t be forgotten.
But in Thailand something has gone wrong. And they have refused completely to answer any questions or criticisms. Hence the need to hold them to account (I think accountability, where ever and whoever, is important – just my view).
There is also more about Ben Zawacki’s response to AI Malaysia that I can’t reveal right now. Plenty of this has to do with internal AI politics and Zawacki throwing his weight around and bullying someone lower down the AI food chain than Robert Amsterdam. Once again Zawacki has tried to avoid that in his reply and has produced a response that reads more like a Nation editorial than a considered and balanced response that holds to the values of AI.
I’ve said to AI I will publish any response they want and offered to interview them.
Interestingly enough, I have found it easier to get an interview with a present Thai govt minister that someone from AI.
I’m Thai and I never said a word about Thailand being great or wonderful so that’s certainly not everyone. As for the majority of tourist that you are talking about, maybe you should check this out
yes that’s what some of the foreigners think about Thailand.
Y. Lee Kyoti – 1
I really dont want to get into argument about Mr. T anymore because I think its very redundant but you made some of the point that I think worth talking about.
The issues are the issues of finding quality processes, ideas, and principles that can produce decent men in power positions, political or social.
You see, the problem with Thailand now is not to find the “right guy” but rather to fix the “system”. No matter how much the person is full of ideology or principle, he would not survive long under political environment. I hope you read a bit about Dr. Somsak and what actually happen when someone offer something that the elite doesn’t like. No matter how much you like to bash Mr. T and his family, however, the same also can be said to his opponent ( the Tuagsuban, Chitchob families and others) so really, does your suggestion going to solve any of the problem?
As for corruption part, as I already said before, the CPI of Thailand is actually higher when Mr. T was in the office, so really, what are you trying to say?
I really have no fate in AI (although there might be some hope with HRW). However, one point I want to make about AI stance about “neutrality” is that if one said (the state in this case) has taken side in disregarding freedom of speech and human right all together, how would AI do its job with taking side?
Furthermore, about Da Torpedo, I couldn’t be more disappointed with AI stance. The reason AI not giving Da the POC status was because she deserved it? from the things that she said? This is just right out ridiculous. First of all, no matter how bad her speech was there’s not a single reason for her to be deny of a proper due process, the close trail and recent result of the case is evidence enough that the state has no concept of due process. How did AI manage to keep its lips shut it beyond me. Second, AI has no right to judge the person guilt, that’s the court’s duty and the last time I check she’s still innocent. How did AI dare to even disregard that fact? do they even know what is their purpose anymore??
Understandable, but in Thailand if you ask too many questions you will end up like Dr. Somsak, being threaten from phone call and unknown man in black….
If that’s really your summation of what I’ve said, then I feel your prejudice about Thai politics has filtered into what you’ve written as reason. There’s no broader ‘if, then, or, else’ argument. My loaded commentary is more to do with AI’s ‘clouding’ of pertinent human rights issues – an internal problem.
AI is certainly not the enemy and it does otherwise fantastic work raising awareness about human rights issues from many parts of the world. The current predicament over Thailand, however, brings shame to that reputation of raising awareness and provokes one to wonder what other particularly significant issues AI’s not reporting on. It’s something that I hope they rectify.
Re Anonymousth: It’s HRH Princess Rasmi, not Mom Rasmi. If she goes, she should take Pr4ince Tipangkorn with her as a good example for the British couple to emulate.
It starts with an attack on AI not sharing a platform with Robert Amsterdam. Therefore AI doesn’t love Thaksin and UDD. So AI must be the enemy.
Sounds like George Bush. Didn’t he say ‘If you not for us, you must be against us.’ or was that one of his neo-con advisers?
OK, let’s cloud the issue a little. We can talk about AI’s, wrong in my opinion, attitude to the use of the LM law over the last dozen or so years. That proves it then, they against us, they are part of the enemy.
Martino, want to give us a glimpse of the enemies list. Be interesting to see who else is on it.
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Thailand at the Limit
LesAbbey – 8
How do you really turn this supply off without some sort of banning orders based on electoral laws?
Couple of points why I think political ban is just right out wrong and unconstitutional. First, last time I check our beloved Newin Chidchob was banned from politic for 5 years, does his influence disappear? no, he still around and kicking. Furthermore, can you give me an example of any country in the world that ban politician like Thailand do?
Furthermore, like I said earlier, we got to fix the political structure here, not looking for a hero. Election wouldn’t solve the problem so don’t worry if only the unwanted are there because even if we are to have super man there he wouldn’t be able to do anything.
New war in Kachin State?
The Myitsone Dam is a national disgrace. It will soon ignite a nation-wide civil war, if this problem is not addressed in a civilized and legal manner.
The Bureau of Special Investigation (BSI) should investigate which individuals received bribes to approve this stinking project.
International Crisis Group, Asia Society, Chatham House and other think tanks should undertake a case study of lack of “good governance” at the Myitsone Dam project instead of writing useless academic reports.
Chinese investment was once welcomed in Africa. Now they are hated in many African countries. The catalyst that may restore freedom and democracy in Burma is anti-Chinese riots which also ended Suharto’s rule in Indonesia.
Right royal histories
It would be more suitable having Mom Srirasmi for William’s birthday.
Thailand at the Limit
Les Abbey 6
Just to go to town on your Pariah analogy.
Pariah dogs are territorial. They roam, scavenge and attack in packs if angered. They have sharp teeth with an infectious bite.
In the western world they are generally swept of the streets and neutered or euthanased.
In Thailand they are rampant, feared and fed out of ignorance and superstition.
Time to call in a vet in my opinion and educate people on how to care for dogs.
Remember. . .A dog is not just for Christmas, it’s for life.
Thailand at the Limit
Tarrin – 7
Before you even ask about “uncorrupted politicians and political parties” you have to have a proper democracy with transparency and accountability first.
The problem is Tarrin in this coming election we will see the same old faces, the Chalerms, the Khunpluems, the Chidchobs and such, returned. How do you really turn this supply off without some sort of banning orders based on electoral laws?
Right royal histories
Seems to be confirmed, but no major issue in the news. Twitter in “The Nation” mentioned Princess Sirindhorn been send off to the Airport and boarding a plane to London yesterday night.
Thailand at the Limit
LesAbbey – 6
How do you get clean, uncorrupted politicians and political parties? Could changes in the last two constitutions be pointing the way?
Before you even ask about “uncorrupted politicians and political parties” you have to have a proper democracy with transparency and accountability first. Why do you think the military got so much power that the civilian government can’t do anything about them. Where do you think the military got their power from? In case of Thailand, what are the institutions that never got to account for anything? The constitution is nothing but a pile of paper if the political culture doesn’t yield to it, ain’t you surprised that the Thais are guaranteed a freedom of speech and expression (I think its in article 4 of the 2007 constitution) but we have at least a dozen laws that obviously break the article but then, the constitution court didn’t care to even review the law. That’s why I said even if we are to elect a superman to run the government he would be turn into Lex Luther in no time.
Once we solve that problem the people will be the one who screen out the bad apples (like any other democratic society do), it takes time yes but it has to start from the fundamental.
Madam Nhu: a feminist with extrajudicial leanings
Elizabeth, I’m not sure what this is all about. So very idealistic. Regimes and morals are not that important really. Look, foreign policy has no room for feminism. It’s all about the pinstripe shirts and Madame Nhus. Why else would anyone bother getting involved?
Thailand at the Limit
Tarrin – 5
You see, the problem with Thailand now is not to find the “right guy” but rather to fix the “system”. No matter how much the person is full of ideology or principle, he would not survive long under political environment.
So how to do it Tarrin? Whoever gets elected isn’t going to fix the problem. How do you get clean, uncorrupted politicians and political parties? Could changes in the last two constitutions be pointing the way? If you want to get the military out of politics, or at least make them pariahs if they do interfere, you do need to start with politicians that don’t smell quite as much as ours in Thailand do.
Unpopular facts about one of Buddhist philosophy’s most popular doctrines
I’m not sure if by “above”, what is meant here is “above” in the comment regarding religious justifications for violent aggression, or “above” in Eisel Mazard’s article, which has nothing to do with violent aggression. However (recognising that this is moving away from the topic of Eisel Mazard’s post), there are numerous examples of Buddhist Kings attempting to justify aggressive violence by appealing to the defence and propagation of the Dhamma. See, here for an example, taken from the life of Sri Lanka’s King Dottagamani, as celebrated in a well know Burmese publication.
Amnesty International and Robert Amsterdam
How strange. I point out the post was on AI not sharing a platform with Robert Amsterdam. I point out that this would be sensible if they didn’t want to be accused of being a part of a propaganda machine. I say that I don’t agree with AI’s stand on LM. And yet it’s stirred up a few people.
If there was a mistake made, it was that someone in AI Malaysia didn’t spot the Robert Amsterdam connection. For AI sharing a platform with him would be as bad as sharing it with Abhisit or the Thai Army.
It seems the accusation being made is that AI have held back on criticizing the LM law in order to continue having a base in Bangkok. If this is true it’s bad, but there should be some sort of proof of the accusation surely. Perhaps AI or Ben Zawacki would like to answer the insinuation here on NM if they don’t want to talk directly with Andrew Spooner.
Just a quick thought on Da Torpedo which in no way excuses the draconian sentence. She did come across as a Joan of Arc sort of personality looking for martyrdom. So Andrew Spooner, maybe the mystery of those for and against her is following Joan’s path, where wasn’t it was some of the French who sold her to the English and the Catholic Church which sentenced her to death. (Yes you are welcome to correct my rather corrupt take on Joan’s history.)
Crackdown on red media
The “Red Shirt” community radio stations are the major source of news for people living in Isan. They long ago stopped watching the national TV networks. I don’t believe the radio station closures will be accepted without considerable rage and resentment. It was one thing to censor the Red Shirt websites, which really didn’t affect the majority of Red Shirt supporters and after all can be got around with access to the right proxy server, but this is a direct challenge to the Red Shirts and PT party because it is their only remaining mass media way to stay in touch. I don’t believe this crackdown will go unchallenged. At the minimum, I expect there will be mobile, pirate radio stations set up. What with this, the stupid border war with Cambodia, and the harassment of Somsak with LM charges, things have gone pear-shaped very quickly here in Thailand.
Amnesty International and Robert Amsterdam
Les Abbey
No, my questioning of AI has nothing whatsoever to do with the Red Shirts, Thaksin or Robert Amsterdam.
I have been publicly critiquing AI’s stance on Da Torpedo for over 2year. I even went to visit her in prison in February of this year (apparently she has been almost completely ignored by Bangkok’s foreign journalists so I believe I was the first to do so in quite some time – spent an intresting 45mins arguing with the prison guards). I also don’t think I have mentioned the Red Shirts once, anywhere, in any of these critiques of Zawacki and AI.
Who was in government when she was arrested? Thaksin’s PPP.
Who was donating large amounts of money to her every month at the beginning? A key ally of PM Abhisit’s govt.
Complicated, huh, Les? Hard to reduce this into your usual argument,
My point is that if AI can’t do its job properly because of restrictions placed on it by the govt it needs to tell everyone what they are. Not go to that govt for advice and help on deciding whose human rights are being infringed.
Yes, AI do a lot of good work. That shouldn’t be forgotten.
But in Thailand something has gone wrong. And they have refused completely to answer any questions or criticisms. Hence the need to hold them to account (I think accountability, where ever and whoever, is important – just my view).
There is also more about Ben Zawacki’s response to AI Malaysia that I can’t reveal right now. Plenty of this has to do with internal AI politics and Zawacki throwing his weight around and bullying someone lower down the AI food chain than Robert Amsterdam. Once again Zawacki has tried to avoid that in his reply and has produced a response that reads more like a Nation editorial than a considered and balanced response that holds to the values of AI.
I’ve said to AI I will publish any response they want and offered to interview them.
Interestingly enough, I have found it easier to get an interview with a present Thai govt minister that someone from AI.
Make of that what you will.
Andrew
Amnesty International and Robert Amsterdam
Nick,
Thanks for your lengthy reply about why you won’t reply.
Andrew
Thailand at the Limit
billyd – 2
I’m Thai and I never said a word about Thailand being great or wonderful so that’s certainly not everyone. As for the majority of tourist that you are talking about, maybe you should check this out
http://www.thailandtraveltragedies.com/
yes that’s what some of the foreigners think about Thailand.
Y. Lee Kyoti – 1
I really dont want to get into argument about Mr. T anymore because I think its very redundant but you made some of the point that I think worth talking about.
The issues are the issues of finding quality processes, ideas, and principles that can produce decent men in power positions, political or social.
You see, the problem with Thailand now is not to find the “right guy” but rather to fix the “system”. No matter how much the person is full of ideology or principle, he would not survive long under political environment. I hope you read a bit about Dr. Somsak and what actually happen when someone offer something that the elite doesn’t like. No matter how much you like to bash Mr. T and his family, however, the same also can be said to his opponent ( the Tuagsuban, Chitchob families and others) so really, does your suggestion going to solve any of the problem?
As for corruption part, as I already said before, the CPI of Thailand is actually higher when Mr. T was in the office, so really, what are you trying to say?
Amnesty International and Robert Amsterdam
I really have no fate in AI (although there might be some hope with HRW). However, one point I want to make about AI stance about “neutrality” is that if one said (the state in this case) has taken side in disregarding freedom of speech and human right all together, how would AI do its job with taking side?
Furthermore, about Da Torpedo, I couldn’t be more disappointed with AI stance. The reason AI not giving Da the POC status was because she deserved it? from the things that she said? This is just right out ridiculous. First of all, no matter how bad her speech was there’s not a single reason for her to be deny of a proper due process, the close trail and recent result of the case is evidence enough that the state has no concept of due process. How did AI manage to keep its lips shut it beyond me. Second, AI has no right to judge the person guilt, that’s the court’s duty and the last time I check she’s still innocent. How did AI dare to even disregard that fact? do they even know what is their purpose anymore??
Crackdown on red media
Nobody – 9
Understandable, but in Thailand if you ask too many questions you will end up like Dr. Somsak, being threaten from phone call and unknown man in black….
Amnesty International and Robert Amsterdam
LesAbbey,
If that’s really your summation of what I’ve said, then I feel your prejudice about Thai politics has filtered into what you’ve written as reason. There’s no broader ‘if, then, or, else’ argument. My loaded commentary is more to do with AI’s ‘clouding’ of pertinent human rights issues – an internal problem.
AI is certainly not the enemy and it does otherwise fantastic work raising awareness about human rights issues from many parts of the world. The current predicament over Thailand, however, brings shame to that reputation of raising awareness and provokes one to wonder what other particularly significant issues AI’s not reporting on. It’s something that I hope they rectify.
Right royal histories
Re Anonymousth: It’s HRH Princess Rasmi, not Mom Rasmi. If she goes, she should take Pr4ince Tipangkorn with her as a good example for the British couple to emulate.
Amnesty International and Robert Amsterdam
It starts with an attack on AI not sharing a platform with Robert Amsterdam. Therefore AI doesn’t love Thaksin and UDD. So AI must be the enemy.
Sounds like George Bush. Didn’t he say ‘If you not for us, you must be against us.’ or was that one of his neo-con advisers?
OK, let’s cloud the issue a little. We can talk about AI’s, wrong in my opinion, attitude to the use of the LM law over the last dozen or so years. That proves it then, they against us, they are part of the enemy.
Martino, want to give us a glimpse of the enemies list. Be interesting to see who else is on it.