Thanks! As I was commenting today in this thread, this might be a very interesting leak for Mainland SE Asia.
And according to the SPIEGEL there will be 1864 documents from Rangoon. In the context of Burma, where information is under even tighter control, this might also be very interesting. How much does the US actually know about the regime, in what way do the diplomats interact with the generals, and what active diplomatic is actually followed there?
[offtopic]
There will be Cables leaked by Wikileaks from both Burma (Rangoon) and Thailand (Bangkok, Chiang Mai), at least according to the SPIEGEL Map at http://www.spiegel.de/flash/flash-24857.html#tab=0 [in German, but easily usable]
1864 documents from Rangoon, 2941 from Bangkok 278 from Chiang Mai.
These might prove interesting for an analysis of how much information the US actually has about the Burmese Junta on an diplomatic level, and could also be interesting for an analysis of the Thai situation.
As far as I know these have not been released yet, at least I couldn’t find them on the Wikileaks page.
Any chance someone at New Mandala will take a detailed look at these?
Just came across some new evidence, though not from the red shirts. I have met my first Thai republican and from the middle class at that and it was a very interesting conversation to say the least. Having been educated both in Thailand and in the west she spoke in a way I have never heard. I asked her how many of the middle class think like her and she said many. I told her that the middle class needs to start leading this country and she simply said that they are waiting. She insisted that she simply could not wigh a certain personage.
Perhaps the middle class is split. Earlier I maintained my position that monarchy is too embedded in the vast majority of Thai people. Now I believe that this is a genie out of a bottle thing. The political situation is more up for grabs than I previously felt.
So I guess our views are intersecting from different ends of the spectrum.
Tarrin,
Wishful thinking on my part that such a poll could ever be carried out. Thus the only thing I can go on is the face to face discussions with people.
Nobody said:
[i]One of themost noticeable aspects of this long lasting little power struggle is the number of people on all sides who want reds/yellows/Thaksin/Abhisit/etc to be exactly what they are not. This is especially true in academic circles which have have reached woefully low levels in their inadequate attempts to analyse everything into what they want it to be. Time to recognize things are complicated[/i]
Spot on and not surprisingly completely ignored by the intellectuals that post here. To portray all of this as some sort of ideological battle is nothing short ludicrous and ignores how leaders and their followers have switched sides numerous times as just a small example of how complicated it actually is.
As for the LM issue, most of this to my knowledge, is being posted by young Thais living overseas that take a childish delight in posting the most inane and insulting things they can think of. It is rarely concrete criticism, but instead juvenile insults often involving human bodily functions.
This is a great story, Nick! It gives everyone a chance to see and understand more what is not covered in the news. It’s the combination of these thousand seemingly isolated events that will perhaps come to define what hapens next in Thailand.
Chris: Some modern commanders have been Sino-Thai. I don’t know all of them, but try these out: Phin Choonhavan, Suchinda Kraprayoon, Chavalit Yongchaiyuth, Chaiyasit Shinawatra.
Tarrin #65 :
Thanks for your comments and feedback – I always find what you write to be some of the most interesting on NM.
1) Re. China, Russia – that was all a long time ago : it is a very different world now.
Also – in both cases there was severe breakdown of the monarchist state, and the effects of world war.
The Thai state – though undoubtedly fractured – is currently proving remarkably resilient, and there’s no context of world war.
2) having said that, I do think there is increasing likelihood of a Pattani-style insurgency developing in Isaarn, and perhaps northern Lanna also. Certainly active separatist sentiment, though still small and marginal, is growing.
I congratulate the Thai journalists who continue excellent and brave reports from Pattani : where the violence has now descended to such depths that even janitors – in this case a 19 year old – have become murdered victims.
Nick Nostitz’s comments re. Pattani – as everything else he writes – are excellent. But I’m skeptical about any increased Red Shirt anti-monarchy sentiment going anywhere except into a political dead-end. Even the Lao PDR is couching their Pan-Lao nationalism in royalist terms – eg. the Chao Anuvang statue.
Chulalongkorn achieved what Russia’s Tsars and China’s Dowager Empress failed at – i.e. freeing of the bonded, serfs or slaves, and in return almost unbroken loyalty and reverence, not least among Red Shirts.
3) the thesis about possible Isaarn secession is not mine.
Anand Panyarachun – for whom I have nothing but the greatest respect – warned about “Thailand” breaking up along regional lines in a front-page Bangkok Post article, years before I made any mention of it. I’ve simply been highlighting this neglected aspect of a POSSIBLE scenario.
All possibilities, including their regional implications, need to be considered.
4) I don’t expect any seriously Pattani-style insurgency in Isaarn until after either the next general election, or the next coup.
Peau Thai’s Chalerm Yubamrung expects the Democrat-led coalition to survive until elections in either April/ May or September/ October 2011. It’s very interesting to read what he says here : http://www.bangkokpost.com/opinion/opinion/208757/chalerm-spot-on-prediction-by-elections-and-pad
Frank: Good luck in your ongoing problem. I’m curious as to how seriously the Thai authorities deal with a defamation complaint by a foreigner against a foreigner? Without some Thai “pride” to protect, I would think the case is somewhat of a nuisance to them. Does Khan’s fanaticism about lese majeste make him more sympathetic to the Thais?
Frank G Anderson #22 re:
“the absolute ethnic and political/social Chinese domination through all social strata.”
It’s a bit of a stretch to say that the Chinese dominate the military.
I believe that in terms of superiority, perhaps cruelty is the flagship that capped the Siam-Lao war back then. While writing and translating my book on Lady Mo, I uncovered some great reference material, some never before translated into English, some sadly in original English, of such things as eyewitness accounts of the cruelty handed out to Anuwongse after he was captured.
This idea of superiority is not a prejudice that is going to go away anytime soon, of course. Add to that the transference of the king’s virtues by the general Thai elite – throughout the country – unto themselves and the situation gets even more complicated. This inane pride of never having been colonized, as well, is out the window with the absolute ethnic and political/social Chinese domination through all social strata.
#18 “sounds too pat.” I was aiming for ‘succinct’.
“all of them in unison?” On the contrary, it was almost impossible to get them to voice an opinion (unnerving if you’re used to an English university, where it’s hard to get them to stop). I elicited comments from perhaps a third of the 20-odd present. They explained why an Enlightenment is neither possible nor necessary in Thailand:
Impossible: There’s something called Thai Culture (hereafter TC) which is categorically impossible for non-Thais to understand. The cornerstone of TC is absolute obedience to parents, teachers, monks and the King. The enlightenment model would mean holding dissenting beliefs. This would be unthinkable for any Thai.
Unnecessary: Within TC, ‘truth’ flows ultimately from the King. Fortunately, the current King is, by any practical definition, infallible. Several instances were given, but the one that sticks is the phrase ‘the greatest engineer’ (verbatim). This came from two graduate engineers of mid-career age. I gently suggested that they might mean this metaphorically (“the engineer of Thailand’s happiness”), but they were adamant that the definition is an absolutely literal one. They then explained why.
Like the great 19th C engineers, the King scoffs at narrow disciplinary boundaries. His scope includes civil engineering (most of the large-scale structures in Thailand are evidently to his design), naval architecture, hydrology, soil erosion and weather modification. He also, apparently, holds many international patents, which might suggest that he is also a player in mechanical and /or electronic engineering (I didn’t explore this).
Ever wonder why Ko Zarni never mention the quintessential Burma expert “Turnell and Vicary”?
Then he will have to admit ‘the lady’ supporter are no better than Charlatans
1) That SPDC botched the attempt @ Dabeyin.
As your little mind set on revenge only, managed to fathom that your lady is not worth martyring, also fathom the set up for a long successful detention that has just ended might have been orchestrated?
Her called for sanctions by the West resulting in unspeakable sufferings has now proven the support for her within to no more than a “House Wife”.
2) “getting her out of the equation which you have fervently advocated for”
Like all proven false witness bearer aka Charlatan
Facebook 
Twitter 
Soundcloud 
Youtube 
Rss
Leaking evidence of violence and machinations in Thailand
Thanks! As I was commenting today in this thread, this might be a very interesting leak for Mainland SE Asia.
And according to the SPIEGEL there will be 1864 documents from Rangoon. In the context of Burma, where information is under even tighter control, this might also be very interesting. How much does the US actually know about the regime, in what way do the diplomats interact with the generals, and what active diplomatic is actually followed there?
Raja Petra Kamarudin: UMNO’s public enemy number 1
Try this link Satguna:
http://www.malaysia-today.net/
A small stage, a ping pong bomb and a burning spirit house
Excellent report Nick.
Thanks for covering what gets “almost no attention whatsoever by the media.”
A small stage, a ping pong bomb and a burning spirit house
Burn down the court? Anyone with a fitting Soviet-era revolutionary quote?
Great thongs too!
Thanks Nick, hope to read more from you!
A small stage, a ping pong bomb and a burning spirit house
A well-written, informative and, indeed, heart-warming, piece of photo-journalism. Right On … Nick Nostitz
Zarni takes aim at Burma experts
[offtopic]
There will be Cables leaked by Wikileaks from both Burma (Rangoon) and Thailand (Bangkok, Chiang Mai), at least according to the SPIEGEL Map at http://www.spiegel.de/flash/flash-24857.html#tab=0 [in German, but easily usable]
1864 documents from Rangoon, 2941 from Bangkok 278 from Chiang Mai.
These might prove interesting for an analysis of how much information the US actually has about the Burmese Junta on an diplomatic level, and could also be interesting for an analysis of the Thai situation.
As far as I know these have not been released yet, at least I couldn’t find them on the Wikileaks page.
Any chance someone at New Mandala will take a detailed look at these?
How hardline have the redshirts become?
Nick,
Just came across some new evidence, though not from the red shirts. I have met my first Thai republican and from the middle class at that and it was a very interesting conversation to say the least. Having been educated both in Thailand and in the west she spoke in a way I have never heard. I asked her how many of the middle class think like her and she said many. I told her that the middle class needs to start leading this country and she simply said that they are waiting. She insisted that she simply could not wigh a certain personage.
Perhaps the middle class is split. Earlier I maintained my position that monarchy is too embedded in the vast majority of Thai people. Now I believe that this is a genie out of a bottle thing. The political situation is more up for grabs than I previously felt.
So I guess our views are intersecting from different ends of the spectrum.
Tarrin,
Wishful thinking on my part that such a poll could ever be carried out. Thus the only thing I can go on is the face to face discussions with people.
Streckfuss on reform of the institution
Nobody said:
[i]One of themost noticeable aspects of this long lasting little power struggle is the number of people on all sides who want reds/yellows/Thaksin/Abhisit/etc to be exactly what they are not. This is especially true in academic circles which have have reached woefully low levels in their inadequate attempts to analyse everything into what they want it to be. Time to recognize things are complicated[/i]
Spot on and not surprisingly completely ignored by the intellectuals that post here. To portray all of this as some sort of ideological battle is nothing short ludicrous and ignores how leaders and their followers have switched sides numerous times as just a small example of how complicated it actually is.
As for the LM issue, most of this to my knowledge, is being posted by young Thais living overseas that take a childish delight in posting the most inane and insulting things they can think of. It is rarely concrete criticism, but instead juvenile insults often involving human bodily functions.
A small stage, a ping pong bomb and a burning spirit house
This is a great story, Nick! It gives everyone a chance to see and understand more what is not covered in the news. It’s the combination of these thousand seemingly isolated events that will perhaps come to define what hapens next in Thailand.
Raja Petra Kamarudin: UMNO’s public enemy number 1
I can’t access to malaysia today. Why?
Size matters
You might want to clarify the apparently implied sameness between “social strata” and ‘military.”
Or you might not. OTY.
Size matters
Chris: Some modern commanders have been Sino-Thai. I don’t know all of them, but try these out: Phin Choonhavan, Suchinda Kraprayoon, Chavalit Yongchaiyuth, Chaiyasit Shinawatra.
How hardline have the redshirts become?
Tarrin #65 :
Thanks for your comments and feedback – I always find what you write to be some of the most interesting on NM.
1) Re. China, Russia – that was all a long time ago : it is a very different world now.
Also – in both cases there was severe breakdown of the monarchist state, and the effects of world war.
The Thai state – though undoubtedly fractured – is currently proving remarkably resilient, and there’s no context of world war.
2) having said that, I do think there is increasing likelihood of a Pattani-style insurgency developing in Isaarn, and perhaps northern Lanna also. Certainly active separatist sentiment, though still small and marginal, is growing.
I congratulate the Thai journalists who continue excellent and brave reports from Pattani : where the violence has now descended to such depths that even janitors – in this case a 19 year old – have become murdered victims.
Nick Nostitz’s comments re. Pattani – as everything else he writes – are excellent. But I’m skeptical about any increased Red Shirt anti-monarchy sentiment going anywhere except into a political dead-end. Even the Lao PDR is couching their Pan-Lao nationalism in royalist terms – eg. the Chao Anuvang statue.
Chulalongkorn achieved what Russia’s Tsars and China’s Dowager Empress failed at – i.e. freeing of the bonded, serfs or slaves, and in return almost unbroken loyalty and reverence, not least among Red Shirts.
3) the thesis about possible Isaarn secession is not mine.
Anand Panyarachun – for whom I have nothing but the greatest respect – warned about “Thailand” breaking up along regional lines in a front-page Bangkok Post article, years before I made any mention of it. I’ve simply been highlighting this neglected aspect of a POSSIBLE scenario.
All possibilities, including their regional implications, need to be considered.
4) I don’t expect any seriously Pattani-style insurgency in Isaarn until after either the next general election, or the next coup.
Peau Thai’s Chalerm Yubamrung expects the Democrat-led coalition to survive until elections in either April/ May or September/ October 2011. It’s very interesting to read what he says here :
http://www.bangkokpost.com/opinion/opinion/208757/chalerm-spot-on-prediction-by-elections-and-pad
Thailand’s climate of repression
Frank: Good luck in your ongoing problem. I’m curious as to how seriously the Thai authorities deal with a defamation complaint by a foreigner against a foreigner? Without some Thai “pride” to protect, I would think the case is somewhat of a nuisance to them. Does Khan’s fanaticism about lese majeste make him more sympathetic to the Thais?
Size matters
Frank G Anderson #22 re:
“the absolute ethnic and political/social Chinese domination through all social strata.”
It’s a bit of a stretch to say that the Chinese dominate the military.
Inflation and iconography: the new 100,000 Kip banknote in Laos
[…] CREDITED TO New Mandala […]
Size matters
I believe that in terms of superiority, perhaps cruelty is the flagship that capped the Siam-Lao war back then. While writing and translating my book on Lady Mo, I uncovered some great reference material, some never before translated into English, some sadly in original English, of such things as eyewitness accounts of the cruelty handed out to Anuwongse after he was captured.
This idea of superiority is not a prejudice that is going to go away anytime soon, of course. Add to that the transference of the king’s virtues by the general Thai elite – throughout the country – unto themselves and the situation gets even more complicated. This inane pride of never having been colonized, as well, is out the window with the absolute ethnic and political/social Chinese domination through all social strata.
Streckfuss on reform of the institution
#18 “sounds too pat.” I was aiming for ‘succinct’.
“all of them in unison?” On the contrary, it was almost impossible to get them to voice an opinion (unnerving if you’re used to an English university, where it’s hard to get them to stop). I elicited comments from perhaps a third of the 20-odd present. They explained why an Enlightenment is neither possible nor necessary in Thailand:
Impossible: There’s something called Thai Culture (hereafter TC) which is categorically impossible for non-Thais to understand. The cornerstone of TC is absolute obedience to parents, teachers, monks and the King. The enlightenment model would mean holding dissenting beliefs. This would be unthinkable for any Thai.
Unnecessary: Within TC, ‘truth’ flows ultimately from the King. Fortunately, the current King is, by any practical definition, infallible. Several instances were given, but the one that sticks is the phrase ‘the greatest engineer’ (verbatim). This came from two graduate engineers of mid-career age. I gently suggested that they might mean this metaphorically (“the engineer of Thailand’s happiness”), but they were adamant that the definition is an absolutely literal one. They then explained why.
Like the great 19th C engineers, the King scoffs at narrow disciplinary boundaries. His scope includes civil engineering (most of the large-scale structures in Thailand are evidently to his design), naval architecture, hydrology, soil erosion and weather modification. He also, apparently, holds many international patents, which might suggest that he is also a player in mechanical and /or electronic engineering (I didn’t explore this).
QED
Zarni takes aim at Burma experts
Zarni on Fraught Election in Burma and the Complicity of EU Governments and Foundations
http://www.scribd.com/doc/38299659/Zarni-on-Fraught-Election-in-Burma-and-the-Complicity-of-EU-Governments-and-Foundations
An Inside View of Reconciliation (Off Print)
http://www.scribd.com/doc/39826935/An-Inside-View-of-Reconciliation-Off-Print
Zarni takes aim at Burma experts
Ever wonder why Ko Zarni never mention the quintessential Burma expert “Turnell and Vicary”?
Then he will have to admit ‘the lady’ supporter are no better than Charlatans
1) That SPDC botched the attempt @ Dabeyin.
As your little mind set on revenge only, managed to fathom that your lady is not worth martyring, also fathom the set up for a long successful detention that has just ended might have been orchestrated?
Her called for sanctions by the West resulting in unspeakable sufferings has now proven the support for her within to no more than a “House Wife”.
2) “getting her out of the equation which you have fervently advocated for”
Like all proven false witness bearer aka Charlatan
Res Ipsa Lo quitur.