Frank do not worry about definitions you can live fascism Thai style and purge yourself of any guilt wishing the French colonized and civilized Siamese oriental despotism
Interesting that Nattawut came to mass public attention as the spokesman for Samak – a man of great integrity, commitment to democracy and the right to peaceful protest.
It’s a struggle to find a politician in this current mess with any integrity at all.
I still find it hard to believe that a political movement that brings together the likes of Thaksin, Samak (RIP), Chavalit, Chalerm, Plodprasop etc etc is really a movement for radical social change. Not that there’s much hope elsewhere….
There is much in Giles’ article that I cannot disagree with but I think his estimates of the numbers of red shirt supporters who know hate the king and the royal family are more his wishful thinking than based on any type of empirical survey. While the military has a great deal to answer for over the decades, Thaksin , himself, was also responsible for a very impressive body count and numerous human rights abuses during his short stint in power, especially in the South. Thus the question is what does Giles wish to see installed in place of the current system? He railed against Thaksin when he was in power but later attempted to hang on to the coat tails of Thaksin’s red shirt movement which is dedicated solely to restoring Thaksin and his brutal and corrupt right wing clique to power, not to the Marxist style revolution Giles has been dreaming of since the 70s. It would be easier to take Giles seriously, if he could remain true to his ideals rather than be seen cavorting with such unsavoury bedfellows. Presumably he believes that such capitalist dross can easily be rounded up and liquidited as revionists after the revolution in true Stalinist style.
Of course Amsterdam’s publicity stunt is just that and he knows full well that the court will not accept the case, although it is obliged to accept it for consideration. However, the stunt may well rebound on Thaksin, if another foreign lawyer files a case against him in the court for his legion human rights abuses whilst in office.
Interesting that there is no discussion of what the Thaksinite political parties stand for or any political or social programmes put forward by the UDD. Just about sums up the red shirt movement. Let’s grab power by whatever means possible and then get our snouts into the trough. Not to say that the current regime is particularly edifying but what improvements could we expect from people like this?
Of course we can believe that Thaksin was just one of many financial sponsors of the red shirt street movement and its armed faction of black shirts and urban bombers. However, it is extremely likely that Thaksin has dwarfed all other generous doners on a dollar weighted basis. The red shirts probably expect us to believe that Thaksin only shovelled in cash under his own name and those of the Khunying and his offspring, rather than creating thousands of nominee donors.
can you give me a solid evidence that shows that a representative of TRT went to a villager, pay him, and then the guy went to ballot box and vote for TRT?
Tarrin it’s a two part question you are asking Vichai. I suspect the second part is impossible to answer unless the guy wants to admit it.
(In a way taking the money and not voting for that candidate is wrong, isn’t it? The guy is almost morally obliged to vote that way. To use the oft used excuse on New Mandala, or to encourage the taking of money without giving the vote is a put down of the standards of those very same villagers you are meant to be showing support for. It’s like saying they having a lower sense of morality than you.)
So to the first part of the question. Why would it be wrong to punish politicians or political parties that do carry out this practice? Really why not? I think we will see less of it anyway because now the major politicians are taking the pork barrel route to buying votes just like they do in the West, but at least that way it’s all out in the open.
I see you spent a month in Chiang Mai and Srisaket. Was that your first lengthy visit to the North and Northeast? I remember the first time I spent a long period in the Northeast many years ago I suddenly understood how the Khmer Rouge succeeded in Cambodia. I thought it wouldn’t have taken much of a push for the peasants to have taken the towns and gone the same route. Believe me it has improved an awful lot since those days.
All substantial comments aside: When I visited Laos back in 1997, the Lao phrasebook had a chapter on the railroad (“Where is the train station?”). Lonely Planet are the true visionaries.
Let’s hope that whatever development this railroad brings, be it through tourism, trade or other economic investment, the Lao people will have an increased say in matters. This type of projects is bound to put more weight on already damaged ecosystems, natural resources and local communities.
A new law (signed in 2009) allowing for independent NGOs to operate in the country may come at the right time. I do not know whether it has already been implemented but no doubt heavy restrictions will continue to limit the range of activities allowed for NGOs.
Tarrin surely you must already know that when Thaksin fully committed himself to win Thailand’s highest elected office by whatever means necessary,
I do believe that not only Thaksin but all of the people who is running for the office to want to win it.
Believe me Vichai if you’ve talked to me 10 years ago I would have agree with you. However, after spending my time in Chieng Mai and Srisaket for a month. I’ve change a lot the way I think after having talk to some of the farmers, the policeman, the politicians, and the shop owners there.
Now the one answer that I got from a villager after asking about vote buying is that “How would they know whether I voted for them or not?” .The guy then explained to me that before its easy to buy vote from the rural area because when people go for voting, unlike in BKK we go to vote at the district office, the villagers had to cast their vote at the village leader’s (Poo Yai Bhan) house. The village leader actually can see and pin point which villagers that accept the money and didn’t vote for his “favored” politician because he can check who is voting for who simply by look at the voting ticket trough the light. They will then start to harass those that didn’t walk in line. After 1997 constitution it changed all that (read here http://aceproject.org/ace-en/topics/es/esy/esy_th if you really want to know a brief detail or http://library.fes.de/pdf-files/iez/01361009.pdf) if you want to read a long one) , now villagers had to caste their vote at the district office as well so the problem with vote buying greatly diminished.
Now I have tell you the reason why I believe vote buying is a weak excuse for the old establishment to discredit democracy, how about you? can you give me a solid evidence that shows that a representative of TRT went to a villager, pay him, and then the guy went to ballot box and vote for TRT?
On a side note: Physical infrastructure is seen as a key component to connect India with South-east Asia and South-east Asia with China and ultimately connecting South Asia with East Asia. This “Asia” is seen to be the most dynamic part of the globe in the coming decades or so.
Improved physical infrastructure (roads, rails, airports, ports, etc) are critical for reducing trade costs. There are of-course political, social and environmental issues which needs to be addressed. But looks like plans have already been laid out. Refer links below. What is important now is for citizens of ASEAN to make sure they are active participants of these decisions and should they be against it or if they want to improve it – make it clear now because the train is about to leave the station.
Thanks very much Hla Oo for sharing this information,
Well, the US (and Australia) then has their targets wrong (or not entirely correct) if Singapore is being used for money laundering as Islamic militants could easily use this also. It better start focusing on Singapore more, and not just on Malaysia and Indonesia.
The main thing is money flow. There are US-imposed sanctions against financial transactions with Burma. So legally there are no money transfers between Singapore banks and Burmese banks. But still many, many millions of dollars are transferred between Singapore and Rangoon every bloody day.
The thousands and thousands of Burmese working and residing in Singapore regularly send Sin$ back to Burma while importers in Burma badly need that money to pay for their goods from Singapore. That transaction alone is at least 10 million dollars a day.
Of course when druggies exchange their mountain of US$ that could hit up to 100 millions. That hard cash goes nowhere but stay in Singapore. Only physical exchange is goods and services from Singapore.
The trade between Burma and Singapore is extremely good. But, maybe, half of the trade is not reported or counted in official statistics as most are not strictly legal, even palm oil and diesel fuel, forget about guns and drugs.
You can imagine the huge amount of money going into the local economy regularly like clockwork. In hard times like last few years in Singapore no one with real authority want to kill that cash cow. It goes right up to the top, as you know, you can’t even fart in Singapore without the Special Branch knowing it, if they are really watching you.
Even from Australia I could send Burma any amount I want through Singapore. I just transfer A$ to Singapore Bank account and within a couple of hours my family in Rangoon gets the bundle of Kyats delivered right at home.
Only problem is receiving the cash from Burma. Australia has very strict laws against money laundering unlike Singapore. Any transfer above A$ 10,000 is reported to some watchdog and if one does too many transfers they investigate.
As far as I know no such problems exist in Singapore. You can walk into a branch of any foreign bank on Orchard Road and deposited a million US dollar cash and took it out next day in a cashier cheque and your money is as white as a laundered shirt acceptable in any bank anywhere in the world. It is almost unbelievable!
There is very good chance that sort of cosy cash-relationship may exist between Afghanistan and Singapore? Maybe I am wrong, I hope.
This project is a really costly and difficult one, if you see the geographical problems on the way. The main reason for that are in my eyes the chinese needs for natural ressources, that they can find in the mountain ranges of Laos. And the project ends not in Laos. The Chinese would like to go further to southeastern Thailand, to be connected with the Gulf of Thailand.
Tarrin (#33) I believe that the Phalang Dharma Party (PDP) in 1992 was still being strongly influenced and led by Chamlong Srimuang who certainly intensely opposed corruption and vote-buying as PDP creed, and, Bangkok was strongly PDP because of the ‘Chamlong fever’. PDP of course lost the NE at that time because PDP was not popular at the NE, and, because Chamlong strongly disallowed vote-buying by any form from its candidates.
Tarrin surely you must already know that when Thaksin fully committed himself to win Thailand’s highest elected office by whatever means necessary, he founded the Thai Rak Thai Party (TRT) by enticing former PDP MPs to join him, and, Thaksin continued on with his enticements by buying other MPs and buying small parties to merge with TRT.
I know you were talking about election, but I give the recent protest as an example to show that people do actually have strong commitment in their political ideology and some were willing to die for it so I don’t think your vote buying hold any ground.
why Yes! Nattawut, a hardcore Red leader, was bought for Baht 10 million wasn’t he?
Its quite perplexing that you insisted that a tabloid by BangkokDan hold any credibility.
Thaksin buys, suborns and corrupts past, present and future.
I really have no subjection to your statement there, but what I find troubling is that you still insisted that Thaksin is the “only” one that buy but you totally disregard other politicians who have engaging in the activity that you claimed to have done “vote buying”.
If are really talking about “ELECTION, past and present” then you really have to look at the 1992 election, Thaksin was in the “Dhama Power Party”. then During that election the Dhama won 32 out of 35 seats in Bangkok area and won none in the NE. If what you said is true then DPP should have won a landslide then right?
I think there probably is a distinction to be made between movements that emerge “bottom up” from a groundswell of shared aspirations and beliefs, and movements where powerful individuals cynically manipulate those with genuine greivances in order to achieve their own objectives. In my humble opinion, the Reds and Yellows are fighting a proxy war between rival factions of the extremely wealthy and corrupt.
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Priority number one
Frank do not worry about definitions you can live fascism Thai style and purge yourself of any guilt wishing the French colonized and civilized Siamese oriental despotism
Breast is best
I’ve seen this for a long time not only in Bangkok,but also the main hospital in each provinces.I think it’s a nationwide campaign.
Review of Nattawut Saikua biography
Interesting that Nattawut came to mass public attention as the spokesman for Samak – a man of great integrity, commitment to democracy and the right to peaceful protest.
It’s a struggle to find a politician in this current mess with any integrity at all.
I still find it hard to believe that a political movement that brings together the likes of Thaksin, Samak (RIP), Chavalit, Chalerm, Plodprasop etc etc is really a movement for radical social change. Not that there’s much hope elsewhere….
Ji Ungpakorn on the military and the monarchy
There is much in Giles’ article that I cannot disagree with but I think his estimates of the numbers of red shirt supporters who know hate the king and the royal family are more his wishful thinking than based on any type of empirical survey. While the military has a great deal to answer for over the decades, Thaksin , himself, was also responsible for a very impressive body count and numerous human rights abuses during his short stint in power, especially in the South. Thus the question is what does Giles wish to see installed in place of the current system? He railed against Thaksin when he was in power but later attempted to hang on to the coat tails of Thaksin’s red shirt movement which is dedicated solely to restoring Thaksin and his brutal and corrupt right wing clique to power, not to the Marxist style revolution Giles has been dreaming of since the 70s. It would be easier to take Giles seriously, if he could remain true to his ideals rather than be seen cavorting with such unsavoury bedfellows. Presumably he believes that such capitalist dross can easily be rounded up and liquidited as revionists after the revolution in true Stalinist style.
Robert Amsterdam’s preliminary submission to the International Criminal Court
Of course Amsterdam’s publicity stunt is just that and he knows full well that the court will not accept the case, although it is obliged to accept it for consideration. However, the stunt may well rebound on Thaksin, if another foreign lawyer files a case against him in the court for his legion human rights abuses whilst in office.
Review of Nattawut Saikua biography
Interesting that there is no discussion of what the Thaksinite political parties stand for or any political or social programmes put forward by the UDD. Just about sums up the red shirt movement. Let’s grab power by whatever means possible and then get our snouts into the trough. Not to say that the current regime is particularly edifying but what improvements could we expect from people like this?
Of course we can believe that Thaksin was just one of many financial sponsors of the red shirt street movement and its armed faction of black shirts and urban bombers. However, it is extremely likely that Thaksin has dwarfed all other generous doners on a dollar weighted basis. The red shirts probably expect us to believe that Thaksin only shovelled in cash under his own name and those of the Khunying and his offspring, rather than creating thousands of nominee donors.
Come the revolution?
Tarrin – 36
can you give me a solid evidence that shows that a representative of TRT went to a villager, pay him, and then the guy went to ballot box and vote for TRT?
Tarrin it’s a two part question you are asking Vichai. I suspect the second part is impossible to answer unless the guy wants to admit it.
(In a way taking the money and not voting for that candidate is wrong, isn’t it? The guy is almost morally obliged to vote that way. To use the oft used excuse on New Mandala, or to encourage the taking of money without giving the vote is a put down of the standards of those very same villagers you are meant to be showing support for. It’s like saying they having a lower sense of morality than you.)
So to the first part of the question. Why would it be wrong to punish politicians or political parties that do carry out this practice? Really why not? I think we will see less of it anyway because now the major politicians are taking the pork barrel route to buying votes just like they do in the West, but at least that way it’s all out in the open.
I see you spent a month in Chiang Mai and Srisaket. Was that your first lengthy visit to the North and Northeast? I remember the first time I spent a long period in the Northeast many years ago I suddenly understood how the Khmer Rouge succeeded in Cambodia. I thought it wouldn’t have taken much of a push for the peasants to have taken the towns and gone the same route. Believe me it has improved an awful lot since those days.
Railroad ready to roll in Laos
All substantial comments aside: When I visited Laos back in 1997, the Lao phrasebook had a chapter on the railroad (“Where is the train station?”). Lonely Planet are the true visionaries.
Let’s hope that whatever development this railroad brings, be it through tourism, trade or other economic investment, the Lao people will have an increased say in matters. This type of projects is bound to put more weight on already damaged ecosystems, natural resources and local communities.
A new law (signed in 2009) allowing for independent NGOs to operate in the country may come at the right time. I do not know whether it has already been implemented but no doubt heavy restrictions will continue to limit the range of activities allowed for NGOs.
Come the revolution?
Vichai N – 35
Tarrin surely you must already know that when Thaksin fully committed himself to win Thailand’s highest elected office by whatever means necessary,
I do believe that not only Thaksin but all of the people who is running for the office to want to win it.
Believe me Vichai if you’ve talked to me 10 years ago I would have agree with you. However, after spending my time in Chieng Mai and Srisaket for a month. I’ve change a lot the way I think after having talk to some of the farmers, the policeman, the politicians, and the shop owners there.
Now the one answer that I got from a villager after asking about vote buying is that “How would they know whether I voted for them or not?” .The guy then explained to me that before its easy to buy vote from the rural area because when people go for voting, unlike in BKK we go to vote at the district office, the villagers had to cast their vote at the village leader’s (Poo Yai Bhan) house. The village leader actually can see and pin point which villagers that accept the money and didn’t vote for his “favored” politician because he can check who is voting for who simply by look at the voting ticket trough the light. They will then start to harass those that didn’t walk in line. After 1997 constitution it changed all that (read here http://aceproject.org/ace-en/topics/es/esy/esy_th if you really want to know a brief detail or http://library.fes.de/pdf-files/iez/01361009.pdf) if you want to read a long one) , now villagers had to caste their vote at the district office as well so the problem with vote buying greatly diminished.
Now I have tell you the reason why I believe vote buying is a weak excuse for the old establishment to discredit democracy, how about you? can you give me a solid evidence that shows that a representative of TRT went to a villager, pay him, and then the guy went to ballot box and vote for TRT?
Railroad ready to roll in Laos
Just curious if the exact route has even been planned yet? Sure the map isn’t accurate with the tracks going through Burma, is it?
Railroad ready to roll in Laos
On a side note: Physical infrastructure is seen as a key component to connect India with South-east Asia and South-east Asia with China and ultimately connecting South Asia with East Asia. This “Asia” is seen to be the most dynamic part of the globe in the coming decades or so.
Improved physical infrastructure (roads, rails, airports, ports, etc) are critical for reducing trade costs. There are of-course political, social and environmental issues which needs to be addressed. But looks like plans have already been laid out. Refer links below. What is important now is for citizens of ASEAN to make sure they are active participants of these decisions and should they be against it or if they want to improve it – make it clear now because the train is about to leave the station.
1. $170b in infrastructure in East Asia.
2. Connecting East Asia
3. Growth initiative towards doubling size of Asia’s economy.
4. ASEAN Connectivity Masterplan
Once a Jolly Hangman: Singapore Justice in the Dock
Thanks very much Hla Oo for sharing this information,
Well, the US (and Australia) then has their targets wrong (or not entirely correct) if Singapore is being used for money laundering as Islamic militants could easily use this also. It better start focusing on Singapore more, and not just on Malaysia and Indonesia.
Once a Jolly Hangman: Singapore Justice in the Dock
The main thing is money flow. There are US-imposed sanctions against financial transactions with Burma. So legally there are no money transfers between Singapore banks and Burmese banks. But still many, many millions of dollars are transferred between Singapore and Rangoon every bloody day.
The thousands and thousands of Burmese working and residing in Singapore regularly send Sin$ back to Burma while importers in Burma badly need that money to pay for their goods from Singapore. That transaction alone is at least 10 million dollars a day.
Of course when druggies exchange their mountain of US$ that could hit up to 100 millions. That hard cash goes nowhere but stay in Singapore. Only physical exchange is goods and services from Singapore.
The trade between Burma and Singapore is extremely good. But, maybe, half of the trade is not reported or counted in official statistics as most are not strictly legal, even palm oil and diesel fuel, forget about guns and drugs.
You can imagine the huge amount of money going into the local economy regularly like clockwork. In hard times like last few years in Singapore no one with real authority want to kill that cash cow. It goes right up to the top, as you know, you can’t even fart in Singapore without the Special Branch knowing it, if they are really watching you.
Even from Australia I could send Burma any amount I want through Singapore. I just transfer A$ to Singapore Bank account and within a couple of hours my family in Rangoon gets the bundle of Kyats delivered right at home.
Only problem is receiving the cash from Burma. Australia has very strict laws against money laundering unlike Singapore. Any transfer above A$ 10,000 is reported to some watchdog and if one does too many transfers they investigate.
As far as I know no such problems exist in Singapore. You can walk into a branch of any foreign bank on Orchard Road and deposited a million US dollar cash and took it out next day in a cashier cheque and your money is as white as a laundered shirt acceptable in any bank anywhere in the world. It is almost unbelievable!
There is very good chance that sort of cosy cash-relationship may exist between Afghanistan and Singapore? Maybe I am wrong, I hope.
Railroad ready to roll in Laos
This project is a really costly and difficult one, if you see the geographical problems on the way. The main reason for that are in my eyes the chinese needs for natural ressources, that they can find in the mountain ranges of Laos. And the project ends not in Laos. The Chinese would like to go further to southeastern Thailand, to be connected with the Gulf of Thailand.
The evidence of intention
[…] […]
Come the revolution?
Tarrin (#33) I believe that the Phalang Dharma Party (PDP) in 1992 was still being strongly influenced and led by Chamlong Srimuang who certainly intensely opposed corruption and vote-buying as PDP creed, and, Bangkok was strongly PDP because of the ‘Chamlong fever’. PDP of course lost the NE at that time because PDP was not popular at the NE, and, because Chamlong strongly disallowed vote-buying by any form from its candidates.
Tarrin surely you must already know that when Thaksin fully committed himself to win Thailand’s highest elected office by whatever means necessary, he founded the Thai Rak Thai Party (TRT) by enticing former PDP MPs to join him, and, Thaksin continued on with his enticements by buying other MPs and buying small parties to merge with TRT.
Enticement!
Come the revolution?
Thailand’s stock market is up 38% this year to a 14 year high.
Come the revolution?
Vichai N – 31
I know you were talking about election, but I give the recent protest as an example to show that people do actually have strong commitment in their political ideology and some were willing to die for it so I don’t think your vote buying hold any ground.
why Yes! Nattawut, a hardcore Red leader, was bought for Baht 10 million wasn’t he?
Its quite perplexing that you insisted that a tabloid by BangkokDan hold any credibility.
Thaksin buys, suborns and corrupts past, present and future.
I really have no subjection to your statement there, but what I find troubling is that you still insisted that Thaksin is the “only” one that buy but you totally disregard other politicians who have engaging in the activity that you claimed to have done “vote buying”.
If are really talking about “ELECTION, past and present” then you really have to look at the 1992 election, Thaksin was in the “Dhama Power Party”. then During that election the Dhama won 32 out of 35 seats in Bangkok area and won none in the NE. If what you said is true then DPP should have won a landslide then right?
Come the revolution?
Nganadeeleg:
I think there probably is a distinction to be made between movements that emerge “bottom up” from a groundswell of shared aspirations and beliefs, and movements where powerful individuals cynically manipulate those with genuine greivances in order to achieve their own objectives. In my humble opinion, the Reds and Yellows are fighting a proxy war between rival factions of the extremely wealthy and corrupt.
Priority number one
Fascism has been mentioned recently and not a few have asked for definitions. While Wiki isn’t the perfect reference source it is a good start and for fascism see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism. The Thai version on wiki is http://th.wikipedia.org/wiki/р╕Яр╕▓р╕кр╕Лр╕┤р╕кр╕Хр╣М
From looking over these versions, Thailand does not seem too far away.