I am so impressed by the way you respond to comments. If only the Thai academics who appear on NM could get off their perches and deign to converse with mere mortals…
Considering your latest posting about Thai military assistance to KR etc, I saw no mention of General Prem (90 years old yesterday). Was he not the Thai PM at the time and should it not be he who is in the dock answering charges of genocide?
Thanks for the excellent fricking shows. I don’t doubt these Malaysian youth could pull something this good. Raw talent! One can’t forget none of the Malays are born-again Moslems. And, their parents are nothing but a culture of authoritarinism. Well, unless they are thoroughly Westernized.
With all their formative years centred around mosque activities and Pharisee’s broadcasting of 5 prayers/day. Young minds can’t help but detest when they see hideousness in politics, hypocrisy in religion, ills and harshness in society.
I don’t know the demographic population structure of Malaysia. Maybe some political parties can cater the needs of this group of the population. Be a member of the political party of their choice. Even run for the parliament once they shown the rope.
Even taking a calf by its horn is almost impossible. If they are for some sort of a revolution, join a party and go from there.
What about the red shirt leaders in Eastern Thailand who have been murdered since the crackdown? They also need to be mentioned. I would like to hear more about their deaths.
LesAbbey 30
Excuse me butting in but. When I first arrived in Bangkok Chamlong was trying to starve himself to death in protest to Suchinda. At that time I thought he was a hero. I even went to the barber and had a Chamlong crop in his honor. Now I wonder what he had against Suchinda. Maybe Chamlong is only against coups when he is not a beneficiary. It seems to me now Chamlong and Suchinda are birds of a feather and reckon Suchinda would fit in very well on the PAD stage.
Oh, I let my hair grow long again after 2006.
So doesn’t that make them pretty much a mob, or would you care to name their real leaders? I doubt we talking about degrees of anarchy here, despite the rhetoric I’ve personally heard from a rabid red about “our mob”.
BTW said rabid red’s favorite politician isn’t Thaksin, it’s that detestable old dinosaur himself, Samak Sundaravej (now shuffled off to that great Jurassic Park in the sky – and not before time).
An interesting claim about who shot Seh Dang – which is all it is.
Of course, one may easily make an arguably more credible counter-claim that Seh Dang was ruthlessly targeted by Thaksin because he was becoming more of a loose cannon every day as his media role grew and could not be allowed to spill the beans to the international media on the black shirts and Thaksin’s double talking deceptions. After all, was Seh Dang really anything more than just another of Thaksin’s men for hire?
BTW I cracked them up in Nonthaburi market today when a vehicle backfired and everyone cringed with my comment into the void, “Seua Dang!” – which brought laughs from the vendors and an alternative explanation: “Seh Dang!”
Arisman Pongruangrong, until proven otherwise, was probably murdered at the hands of government agents at the end of the red shirt rally. Prove me wrong. But all we get are variations of ‘Elvis’ in Cambodia sightings.
The New mandala has just shown us a tip of an iceberg. The truth is much worse than what the New Mandala could provide. Many red-shirt supporters were shot dead days after the crackdown. The Apisit’s government is in a state of paranoid, they are afraid of every movement. Police were sent in to check and control all kinds of event except those of the event organised by the yellow-shirt. I agree with the GVA that more than 113,000 websites had been blocked, even the New Mandala itself had been blocked before. Look at the TV stations, the government allowed ASTV and its branches to broadcast 24 hours of lies. But not a single TV station that belongs to their opponent is allowed. More and more injustices, grievances and disputes will be seen in the near future. Reconciliation is just a joke or a drama play by a few old impostors who have played these roles times after times. No one believes these old crooks, they know these drama too well. Thailand is now a Failed State. It is a time bomb that wait to be exploded.
I’m happy to see Maratjp’s reminder (#65) to read the Reporters Without Borders report. This particular part (not necessarily representative of the rest) didn’t get much attention:
“Did you feel you were targeted?”
“I can say I was deliberately targeted. When the soldiers attacked, I was too far from the group of demonstrators for one to be able to claim it was accidental. The soldiers probably did not want me to take photos.”
“Did your newspaper publish the photos you took of the incident?”
“They were used in the daily, but without the captions that readers needed to be able to understand who fired.”
(interview with Chaiwat Pumpuang, Nation photographer)
If any of you republicans bothered to stand up for the national anthem in a BKK cinema you would see that the imagery of rain falling upon the barren earth is an integral part of the ethos. With the air-con on full blast you can almost feel it rolling down your back. I eagerly await a 3D version in the near future
However, I agree that there’s an attempt by the left wing element in the PAD side who actually try to turn the red movement to follow the gang of four ideology such as Pisarn Pechmongkol…
Sorry Tarrin, I have to display my ignorance. Could you explain this above for me?
Myself I was thinking about Giles Ungpakorn and the Thai and foreign followers of Trotskyism. Of course Weng and some of the others in both the UDD and the PAD were followers of an earlier version of Marxist-Leninism they learned in the jungle.
And yes, of course the support given to Khmer Rouge leaders by both the West and ASEAN was wrong. In a way they were playing the same game of “my enemy’s enemy must be my friend” that some left wing supporters of the red shirts are playing. Hence Thaksin changes from a pre-2006 enemy to post-2006 friend.
Thank you for raising the issue. I think the bottom line is the issue of “power.”
In developing countries, “Political power comes from the barrel of a gun,” Mao Zedong. State is an instrument that a group uses to ride on top of other groups. And for a State to be successful instrument, there must be very massive violent tools. Such as an army, police, courts, prisons, etc. State defends those groups that have more wealth and social resources.
I find the Thai State acts just like above-mentioned. I find the Thai State defends the network Monarchy and using its massive violent tools such as the army, police, courts, and prisons against the red shirts.
I think Thailand is at the critical juncture between peaceful transition to democracy or follow Nepal’s path, “In order to put down the gun, you must pick up the gun first.” Mao Zedong
Although I agree that being in the jail like Weng is useless (I never like him so don’t get me wrong on this one, same with the 3 wise-men). However, you must misunderstood something, you said “our followers” , pardon but I dont have any followers, I’m just a guy who felt like something needs to be done to change the governing system here. The mass was actually never follow ONE man, its the red leaders that do and I have criticize them many times.
LesAbbey – 33
You seem to be referring to Khmer Rouge a lot, let me reminded you that the Khmer Rouge has been supported indirectly by the Thai government and the CIA operative in the late 60s and early 70s. That’s why we restore the political relationship with them immediately when they took over the country and we even push them to be recognize in the UN.
However, I agree that there’s an attempt by the left wing element in the PAD side who actually try to turn the red movement to follow the gang of four ideology such as Pisarn Pechmongkol, that’s very dangerous indeed but it doesn’t mean that the whole movement has to be stop. People just need to be telling the truth in order to not letting that happened. Now a day telling the truth and not getting jailed is very hard indeed.
“The Thai military did use these rules of engagement as I have mentioned before: shooting blanks, shooting in the air, tear gas, falling back, music, talking on a microphone etc. An “entire infantry division”? 20k troops? There weren’t that many. Tanks? There were no tanks, just APC’s and not many of those. You must be joking when you mentioned that countries have never used such military force to quell protests. Take a gander at the 20th century.”
Dropping tear gas from the chopper is not one of the rule of engagement, that’s for sure. Moreover, there’s not a single rules of engagement that said lethal weapon is fine.
20k is about a size of an infantry division noted that about 30% of that are in supporting role so the real fighting force might be around 14k-15k. However, this government was reporting in bringing in most of the troop from the 1st Region Army and part of 2nd (according to Peter Warr in one of newmandala interview) what we know is that the 1st, 2nd, 7th Calvary (noted that this unites are equipped with armored regiment), part of police border petrol unites and local police force from other region of the country (my friends are police officers in the NE and they have to be in BKK as well) took part directly or indirectly in the operation which made the number of the troops deploy either to blockade, assault, and mop-up to hover somewhere between 40k-50k at a given time. Well, I see country like China that use military to massacre their citizen but whose care right? they are bloody communist. Has it ever be done before? yes, many times no doubt, but should it be encourage? of cause not.
Please listen to the comments of those of us WHO WERE THERE. And listen to the journalists who were shot in the RWB report.
Again, I have explained this to you before but it seems like you didn’t read or simply forgot. I’ve posted sometime ago that my office is only 5 min walk from the rally site and my condo is 10 min walks away from Ratchaprasong intersection. I WAS THERE.
I think it’s disgusting that Arthurson wants someone banned for daring to disagree with him. This is supposed to be an open forum for an exchange of ideas and opinions.
Is that what you really want? You had better be careful what you wish for or we might end up with the other Maoist movement that operated in Cambodia, the Khmer Rouge.
Let’s have some of the Marxist-Leninist on New Mandala be honest. Do you want a peasant movement along the lines laid out by Mao? Are you prepared to take on the urban dwellers and intellectuals the same as the Khmer Rouge?
Many years ago I suspected this was a possibility. The exploitation of the northeastern peasants was very bad. There were still communist holdouts in the forests. And back then the exploitation had a face and it was a Thai-Chinese face. It was the face of the local shop owner, the rice mill owner and the representatives of the new agro-industrial companies, the local godfather and many Bangkok residents.
Now I think this is far less likely because you will find probably the majority of the Bangkok residents are either born in the northeast or are first or second generation Bangkok born. Prices paid at the farm had improved, although not enough, partly through various government’s intervention schemes.
The attempt some are making to turn the pro-Thaksin red shirt movement into a peasant Marxist-Leninist movement, I suspect is bound to fail. Whether through their efforts they can bring back Thaksin I feel could be a closer call.
As a 57-year-old pseudo-intellectual male who is employed as an academic, I find Whoever’s comments above particularly hateful, and I think he should be banned from further commentary on this ghetto forum. Note my presumption that we are dealing with an angry, full-of-hate male, probably of the ex-pat Pattaya or Bangkok variety who happens to personally benefit from the gross inequalities of the current status quo. I concur with Whoopla’s comment #66 and his assessment that the Abhisit government, propped up by the Royal Thai Army, is guilty of committing nearly all of the killings in April and May. There are no “simple facts” that will obfuscate this conclusion.
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Royal rain-making in the news
Polyphemus : Isn’t it the royal anthem?
An alternative view of the Duch verdict in Cambodia
Dear Benny
I am so impressed by the way you respond to comments. If only the Thai academics who appear on NM could get off their perches and deign to converse with mere mortals…
Considering your latest posting about Thai military assistance to KR etc, I saw no mention of General Prem (90 years old yesterday). Was he not the Thai PM at the time and should it not be he who is in the dock answering charges of genocide?
That Effing Show
Thanks for the excellent fricking shows. I don’t doubt these Malaysian youth could pull something this good. Raw talent! One can’t forget none of the Malays are born-again Moslems. And, their parents are nothing but a culture of authoritarinism. Well, unless they are thoroughly Westernized.
With all their formative years centred around mosque activities and Pharisee’s broadcasting of 5 prayers/day. Young minds can’t help but detest when they see hideousness in politics, hypocrisy in religion, ills and harshness in society.
I don’t know the demographic population structure of Malaysia. Maybe some political parties can cater the needs of this group of the population. Be a member of the political party of their choice. Even run for the parliament once they shown the rope.
Even taking a calf by its horn is almost impossible. If they are for some sort of a revolution, join a party and go from there.
Thai style reconciliation a recipe for further conflict
What about the red shirt leaders in Eastern Thailand who have been murdered since the crackdown? They also need to be mentioned. I would like to hear more about their deaths.
More on the “strategy of tension”
LesAbbey 30
Excuse me butting in but. When I first arrived in Bangkok Chamlong was trying to starve himself to death in protest to Suchinda. At that time I thought he was a hero. I even went to the barber and had a Chamlong crop in his honor. Now I wonder what he had against Suchinda. Maybe Chamlong is only against coups when he is not a beneficiary. It seems to me now Chamlong and Suchinda are birds of a feather and reckon Suchinda would fit in very well on the PAD stage.
Oh, I let my hair grow long again after 2006.
More on the “strategy of tension”
Tarrin – 34
So doesn’t that make them pretty much a mob, or would you care to name their real leaders? I doubt we talking about degrees of anarchy here, despite the rhetoric I’ve personally heard from a rabid red about “our mob”.
BTW said rabid red’s favorite politician isn’t Thaksin, it’s that detestable old dinosaur himself, Samak Sundaravej (now shuffled off to that great Jurassic Park in the sky – and not before time).
More on the “strategy of tension”
Chupong Red – 31
An interesting claim about who shot Seh Dang – which is all it is.
Of course, one may easily make an arguably more credible counter-claim that Seh Dang was ruthlessly targeted by Thaksin because he was becoming more of a loose cannon every day as his media role grew and could not be allowed to spill the beans to the international media on the black shirts and Thaksin’s double talking deceptions. After all, was Seh Dang really anything more than just another of Thaksin’s men for hire?
BTW I cracked them up in Nonthaburi market today when a vehicle backfired and everyone cringed with my comment into the void, “Seua Dang!” – which brought laughs from the vendors and an alternative explanation: “Seh Dang!”
More on the “strategy of tension”
Arisman Pongruangrong, until proven otherwise, was probably murdered at the hands of government agents at the end of the red shirt rally. Prove me wrong. But all we get are variations of ‘Elvis’ in Cambodia sightings.
Thai style reconciliation a recipe for further conflict
The New mandala has just shown us a tip of an iceberg. The truth is much worse than what the New Mandala could provide. Many red-shirt supporters were shot dead days after the crackdown. The Apisit’s government is in a state of paranoid, they are afraid of every movement. Police were sent in to check and control all kinds of event except those of the event organised by the yellow-shirt. I agree with the GVA that more than 113,000 websites had been blocked, even the New Mandala itself had been blocked before. Look at the TV stations, the government allowed ASTV and its branches to broadcast 24 hours of lies. But not a single TV station that belongs to their opponent is allowed. More and more injustices, grievances and disputes will be seen in the near future. Reconciliation is just a joke or a drama play by a few old impostors who have played these roles times after times. No one believes these old crooks, they know these drama too well. Thailand is now a Failed State. It is a time bomb that wait to be exploded.
Who killed Italian photographer Fabio Polenghi?
I’m happy to see Maratjp’s reminder (#65) to read the Reporters Without Borders report. This particular part (not necessarily representative of the rest) didn’t get much attention:
“Did you feel you were targeted?”
“I can say I was deliberately targeted. When the soldiers attacked, I was too far from the group of demonstrators for one to be able to claim it was accidental. The soldiers probably did not want me to take photos.”
“Did your newspaper publish the photos you took of the incident?”
“They were used in the daily, but without the captions that readers needed to be able to understand who fired.”
(interview with Chaiwat Pumpuang, Nation photographer)
Royal rain-making in the news
If any of you republicans bothered to stand up for the national anthem in a BKK cinema you would see that the imagery of rain falling upon the barren earth is an integral part of the ethos. With the air-con on full blast you can almost feel it rolling down your back. I eagerly await a 3D version in the near future
More on the “strategy of tension”
Tarrin – 34
However, I agree that there’s an attempt by the left wing element in the PAD side who actually try to turn the red movement to follow the gang of four ideology such as Pisarn Pechmongkol…
Sorry Tarrin, I have to display my ignorance. Could you explain this above for me?
Myself I was thinking about Giles Ungpakorn and the Thai and foreign followers of Trotskyism. Of course Weng and some of the others in both the UDD and the PAD were followers of an earlier version of Marxist-Leninism they learned in the jungle.
And yes, of course the support given to Khmer Rouge leaders by both the West and ASEAN was wrong. In a way they were playing the same game of “my enemy’s enemy must be my friend” that some left wing supporters of the red shirts are playing. Hence Thaksin changes from a pre-2006 enemy to post-2006 friend.
Thai style reconciliation a recipe for further conflict
Thank you for raising the issue. I think the bottom line is the issue of “power.”
In developing countries, “Political power comes from the barrel of a gun,” Mao Zedong. State is an instrument that a group uses to ride on top of other groups. And for a State to be successful instrument, there must be very massive violent tools. Such as an army, police, courts, prisons, etc. State defends those groups that have more wealth and social resources.
I find the Thai State acts just like above-mentioned. I find the Thai State defends the network Monarchy and using its massive violent tools such as the army, police, courts, and prisons against the red shirts.
I think Thailand is at the critical juncture between peaceful transition to democracy or follow Nepal’s path, “In order to put down the gun, you must pick up the gun first.” Mao Zedong
More on the “strategy of tension”
Chupong red – 31
Although I agree that being in the jail like Weng is useless (I never like him so don’t get me wrong on this one, same with the 3 wise-men). However, you must misunderstood something, you said “our followers” , pardon but I dont have any followers, I’m just a guy who felt like something needs to be done to change the governing system here. The mass was actually never follow ONE man, its the red leaders that do and I have criticize them many times.
LesAbbey – 33
You seem to be referring to Khmer Rouge a lot, let me reminded you that the Khmer Rouge has been supported indirectly by the Thai government and the CIA operative in the late 60s and early 70s. That’s why we restore the political relationship with them immediately when they took over the country and we even push them to be recognize in the UN.
However, I agree that there’s an attempt by the left wing element in the PAD side who actually try to turn the red movement to follow the gang of four ideology such as Pisarn Pechmongkol, that’s very dangerous indeed but it doesn’t mean that the whole movement has to be stop. People just need to be telling the truth in order to not letting that happened. Now a day telling the truth and not getting jailed is very hard indeed.
Who killed Italian photographer Fabio Polenghi?
Maratjp – 65
“The Thai military did use these rules of engagement as I have mentioned before: shooting blanks, shooting in the air, tear gas, falling back, music, talking on a microphone etc. An “entire infantry division”? 20k troops? There weren’t that many. Tanks? There were no tanks, just APC’s and not many of those. You must be joking when you mentioned that countries have never used such military force to quell protests. Take a gander at the 20th century.”
Dropping tear gas from the chopper is not one of the rule of engagement, that’s for sure. Moreover, there’s not a single rules of engagement that said lethal weapon is fine.
20k is about a size of an infantry division noted that about 30% of that are in supporting role so the real fighting force might be around 14k-15k. However, this government was reporting in bringing in most of the troop from the 1st Region Army and part of 2nd (according to Peter Warr in one of newmandala interview) what we know is that the 1st, 2nd, 7th Calvary (noted that this unites are equipped with armored regiment), part of police border petrol unites and local police force from other region of the country (my friends are police officers in the NE and they have to be in BKK as well) took part directly or indirectly in the operation which made the number of the troops deploy either to blockade, assault, and mop-up to hover somewhere between 40k-50k at a given time. Well, I see country like China that use military to massacre their citizen but whose care right? they are bloody communist. Has it ever be done before? yes, many times no doubt, but should it be encourage? of cause not.
Please listen to the comments of those of us WHO WERE THERE. And listen to the journalists who were shot in the RWB report.
Again, I have explained this to you before but it seems like you didn’t read or simply forgot. I’ve posted sometime ago that my office is only 5 min walk from the rally site and my condo is 10 min walks away from Ratchaprasong intersection. I WAS THERE.
“Life in a Bangkok prison”
Once again another foreigner or foreigners entering into Thailand thinking they are above the law or the law of the land that doesn’t include them .
Who killed Italian photographer Fabio Polenghi?
I think it’s disgusting that Arthurson wants someone banned for daring to disagree with him. This is supposed to be an open forum for an exchange of ideas and opinions.
More on the “strategy of tension”
Chupong red – 31
to bring our country to be the same in Nepal.
Is that what you really want? You had better be careful what you wish for or we might end up with the other Maoist movement that operated in Cambodia, the Khmer Rouge.
Let’s have some of the Marxist-Leninist on New Mandala be honest. Do you want a peasant movement along the lines laid out by Mao? Are you prepared to take on the urban dwellers and intellectuals the same as the Khmer Rouge?
Many years ago I suspected this was a possibility. The exploitation of the northeastern peasants was very bad. There were still communist holdouts in the forests. And back then the exploitation had a face and it was a Thai-Chinese face. It was the face of the local shop owner, the rice mill owner and the representatives of the new agro-industrial companies, the local godfather and many Bangkok residents.
Now I think this is far less likely because you will find probably the majority of the Bangkok residents are either born in the northeast or are first or second generation Bangkok born. Prices paid at the farm had improved, although not enough, partly through various government’s intervention schemes.
The attempt some are making to turn the pro-Thaksin red shirt movement into a peasant Marxist-Leninist movement, I suspect is bound to fail. Whether through their efforts they can bring back Thaksin I feel could be a closer call.
Who killed Italian photographer Fabio Polenghi?
As a 57-year-old pseudo-intellectual male who is employed as an academic, I find Whoever’s comments above particularly hateful, and I think he should be banned from further commentary on this ghetto forum. Note my presumption that we are dealing with an angry, full-of-hate male, probably of the ex-pat Pattaya or Bangkok variety who happens to personally benefit from the gross inequalities of the current status quo. I concur with Whoopla’s comment #66 and his assessment that the Abhisit government, propped up by the Royal Thai Army, is guilty of committing nearly all of the killings in April and May. There are no “simple facts” that will obfuscate this conclusion.
Who killed Italian photographer Fabio Polenghi?
[…] “Who killed Italian photographer Fabio Polenghi?“, by Thilo Thielke, New Mandala, August 17, 2010 […]