I think Mike’s story about what happened at a primary school is shameful. While it is true that the red shirts burned down the city, the best way for Thailand to become a force in the modern economy is for schools to encourage and foster independent thought. I think democracy in Thailand should be a gradual process because the current generation of adults is not ready. Other than with respect to their rice crop, the rural poor have no concept of investing for the future. They want their cell phones, sunglasses and sneakers now, and they want them for free, with no thought as to how they can be productive participants in the economy. I read a story about one rural family that got a substantial windfall. Within a month, the family had been spent the entire amount on consumer goods to impress the neighbors. If the red shirts get power, then it will be much the same on a national scale.
This is “the winner takes it all” game. As you have mentioned:
“The current Thai monarchy doesn’t want to be a constitutional monarchy, rather they are driven to be an absolute monarchy with the total control of military, government, and judiciary”.
I’d like to add that is not enough for him, the term “Thai style democracy “is being used so as to hide behind it and takes no accountability at all, then, say he is above politics. How convenient!!
Thais must wake up now before it is too late!!
Mike #10 Your post is deeply disturbing. If you can and feel it safe to do so , please keep us informed about what action has been taken and what has been the response. If the report can be confirmed by other parents, especially with children in other classes and other schools, then the Thailand has truly entered the realms of the Third Reich.
The Thai government has now joined other despicable regimes in labelling their political opponents as “terrorists”. Two such regimes that come to mind are Russia (the Chechens) and China (the Uighars)
SimonSays, you won’t go down well here you know. You’ll be accused of being a Nazi or something. Just looking at the approvals and disapprovals of the comments here, its apparent that this blog is clearly not the place to air considered views critical of the Reds’ cause; even to suggest that Thaksin just might be pivotal in this situation could get you slammed. Still, you demonstrate the hypocrisy of those that charge the current government with censorship and corruption. I don’t deny that this government has made mistakes – delaying the break up of the siege was one – but the entire charge against this government does in fact rest upon a denial of Thaksin’s role in the current predicament. If Thaksin is innocent – which he is not (of corruption and human rights abuses, not to mention bank rolling the recent spate of terrorism in Bangkok, however incomparable it is with events in Pakistan, say) – then the case against the legitimacy of this government is surely strengthened. For if Thaksin was illegally or unfairly ousted then the coup and following government can of course be viewed as illegitimate and unjustified. The argument about the righteousness of the Reds’ cause is thus inextricable with Thaksin as you say.
What’s all this howling and whining at New Mandala about ‘hunting’ and ‘witches’.
Thailand government does not hunt witches. But foreigners like Jeff Savage who incite mobs to burn Bangkok down will be hunted. Any Jeff Savages at New Mandala? If none, then gentlemen you don’t have to worry about a thing.
I take no issue with the merits of your argument. I am sure you always make perfect arguments. What I find offensive about your comment is it tone. And tone is very important because it incites emotions for better or worse. In your case, it seems you intend to be mean.
You could have chosen more neutral language to make your points but you chose not to. Rather than say Thailand has a flawed education system because its teachers are bad, you choose to say: “It will take removal or retraining of 80% of teachers in Thailand because they are largely incompetent to teach.” Where do you come up with this stuff? And rather than say Thais have difficulty seeing pass recent events, you choose to say, “the short attention-span of Thais and their inherent lack of respect for the rule of law.” Who are you to say any particular trait is inherit to a certain people? That’s like saying Africans are inherently barbaric and ungovernable. You’re a small-minded individual if you expect me to have an “objective discussion” with you after you spew such garbage.
Your tone betrays your attitude, which judging from other gems you’ve posted on this blog is one that condescends and belittles Thais and Thailand. It is offensive but maybe you mean to offend.
Here’s another one of your gems:
“What would happen if western influence were to disappear overnight, western countries and the western people you hate stopped buying Thai rice and stopped coming to visit the Thai brothels you populate with the daughters of your uncared-for poor. Thailand would return to the stone age Rose, so keep a civil tongue in your uneducated and foul-mouthed head. Oh, and try to get a clue somewhere would you – if you aren;t sure where to get one, ask a farang.”
Wow, I can’t argue with you how ‘fair and correct’ your statements are here.
“This is not about Thaksin and the puppet master” – could you kindly enlighten us as to what ‘this’ really is about then?
How can a movement that supports Thaksin be ‘democratic’ and ‘populist’?
“It’s so easy to put some trained military snipers in black or red shirts and let them play the role of the bad guys.” – Are you suggesting they were government ‘agents’ planted into the red shirt movement to discredit it? Almost as absurd as the conspiracy theory that says the 9/11 attacks were created by the Bush regime.
“a much larger Thai population group whose lunch are no Sushi at Fuji, Secret Recipe cakes, Starbucks coffee and that they are discriminated to a degree that it’s simply shocking” – are you suggesting economic growth in Thailand is a negative thing? Are you even suggesting that there are no Mcdonald’s, Fuji restaurants, Starbucks cafes in the north and north east of Thailand. Absolute pap!!
And what is your sneering disdain for the Thai middle class anyway? Furthermore, your attitude reeks of post-colinail disdain – one that says, ‘Thais in fact don’t deserve Fuji resaurants, or Starbucks, or secret recipe cakes – they should all be the ‘happy harmonious Buddhsits’ with no need of a material reality. How na├пve!!
“To actually be able to see that there is extreme injustice, double standards and hypocrisy you first should realize that the hierarchical social structure, educational system and cultural background grants the leaders the right to abuse and fill their own pockets, since democracy was introduced to Thailand.” – As you are evidently pro-red, you are also pro-Thaksin, whether you like this fact or not.
And the Thaksin model fits in with ‘extreme injustice, double standards and hypocrisy’ you describe.
From ‘A New Mandala’ itself (the blog we are on):
“Election is not rightful when the law must be manipulated first to get the winning party out of the way.” From this very site itself: There is much talk of vote buying in relation to Thailand’s political crisis. Hard evidence is hard to come by but dark rumours persist of electoral handouts in return for votes. Well, New Mandala has some firm evidence due to the eagle eye of Nich Farrelly. Have a look at these snaps from the February 2005 election campaign. Political corruption at its worst – promises of free health care, 1200 baht per month bribes for senior citizens, slush funds for farmers, cash for local volunteers. And more! Yet another electoral outrage!”
[Hi Simonsays – I think you may have missed the point of these images and the post. Look which parties the images are referring to. AW]
“It’s so easy to brainwash people just indoctrinate them with the concept of an enemy and make them feel better (we the peaceful, educated and good deserve to be privileged ), they actually dance then to any tune. This concept has worked then, still works today – all over this globe. Dividing countries, cities and even neighborhoods.” – Indeed Rebecca! Indeed! And thus we have the ‘Red Shirt movement’ and its armed & terrorist wing ‘the black shirts’!!
Are you denying the red shirts had an armed militia?
You say: “The fact is we just don’t know.”
The fact is, yes we do know!
If there’s one ‘farang’ who would know, that would be Nick Nostitz. In his own words:
“This was a most terrifying experience. Presently i am far more scared
of the soldiers than of the “Guys in Black” (yes – they are existing)
who i had a brief encounter with the night before. One of them asked me
politely not to take any images of him, and then walked off into no
man’s land, a grenade launcher hidden under his jacket, not too long
after followed by automatic rifle fire and several grenade blasts into
the direction of the military.”
Mr. V.
If you want verification then I suggest you read page two of the Bangkok Post. “Education authorities revise school curricula” by Sirikul Bunnag.
I’m not going to quote the whole article, just the first paragraph: “The Basic Education Commission is planning to place an added emphasis on unity, loyalty to the royal institution and democracy in school curriculums in the wake of the political turmoil.”
They go on to state these will be “improvements”, so they admit brainwashing at schools has already taken place. And who controls the content of these new “improvements”, none other than the fox in charge of the chicken coup.
The Thai education system is desolate.
Roger
TE/re-Apichatpong: QUOTE “Thailand is a violent country; it’s (now) controlled by a group of mafia” UNQUOTE
р╣Др╕Чр╕вр╣Ар╕Ыр╣Зр╕Щр╕Ыр╕гр╕░р╣Ар╕Чр╕ир╕Чр╕╡р╣Ир╣Ар╕Хр╣Зр╕бр╣Др╕Ыр╕Фр╣Йр╕зр╕вр╕Др╕зр╕▓р╕бр╕гр╕╕р╕Щр╣Бр╕гр╕З р╣Бр╕ер╕░р╕Цр╕╣р╕Бр╕Ыр╕Бр╕Др╕гр╕нр╕Зр╣Вр╕Фр╕вр╕Бр╕ер╕╕р╣Ир╕бр╕бр╕▓р╣Ар╕Яр╕╡р╕в’-р╕нр╕ар╕┤р╕Кр╕▓р╕Хр╕┤р╕Юр╕Зр╕ир╣М р╕зр╕╡р╕гр╕░р╣Ар╕ир╕гр╕йр╕Рр╕Бр╕╕р╕е р╕Ьр╕╣р╣Йр╕Кр╕Щр╕░р╕гр╕▓р╕Зр╕зр╕▒р╕ер╕ар╕▓р╕Юр╕вр╕Щр╕Хр╕гр╣Мр╣Ар╕бр╕╖р╕нр╕Зр╕Др╕▓р╕Щр╕кр╣М
I enclose an excellent paper published on May 12/2010 by the weekly Newspaper “Weltwoche” and which a clear analysis how the monarchy evolutes. Maybe somebody is willing to translate
THE KING’S MOST DANGEROUS FRIEND
[If you send a link we will post the link, not the full article. AW]
Well there’s always been that touch of nationalism in Thai politics . Having a Brit and Australian under arrest will help it a bit more. Mind you, the real expert on using this is Thaksin. Do you remember the anti-IMF part of his first TRT election campaign? Of course Chuan had already made most of the changes the IMF asked for and Thaksin didn’t really need to do anything different. Still it became a pretty intense anti-foreigner feeling for a while, most noticeable when having to deal with civil servants.
About political brainwashing in primary school, my aunt and her friends are yellowism teacher. Last 4 years she showed me Thai language examination paper which issued by her friend. Everything in the paper were all about red and yellow ideological but applied as Thai grammar questions, for grade 5 students.
#7
I do not have a definitive source, but I have read several forum posts regarding Pramote’s interview given to either the Nation or ASTV after the quote became famous. He personally said that the quote was definitely not recent.
http://teenoireturns.freeforums.org/topic-t203.html
This is another piece of evidence which pretty much confirmed my understanding. According to a post there, Pramote did mention there was a misunderstanding, that the statement was more or less an extrapolation of the King’s birthday speech on 4th December, 2005.
If I recall correctly, the King stated pretty clearly (which is actually uncharacteristic of him who normally excels at making vague comments) that he would tolerate criticisms.
Facebook 
Twitter 
Soundcloud 
Youtube 
Rss
Enemies, foreign and domestic
I think Mike’s story about what happened at a primary school is shameful. While it is true that the red shirts burned down the city, the best way for Thailand to become a force in the modern economy is for schools to encourage and foster independent thought. I think democracy in Thailand should be a gradual process because the current generation of adults is not ready. Other than with respect to their rice crop, the rural poor have no concept of investing for the future. They want their cell phones, sunglasses and sneakers now, and they want them for free, with no thought as to how they can be productive participants in the economy. I read a story about one rural family that got a substantial windfall. Within a month, the family had been spent the entire amount on consumer goods to impress the neighbors. If the red shirts get power, then it will be much the same on a national scale.
Enemies, foreign and domestic
Suzie Wong#13
This is “the winner takes it all” game. As you have mentioned:
“The current Thai monarchy doesn’t want to be a constitutional monarchy, rather they are driven to be an absolute monarchy with the total control of military, government, and judiciary”.
I’d like to add that is not enough for him, the term “Thai style democracy “is being used so as to hide behind it and takes no accountability at all, then, say he is above politics. How convenient!!
Thais must wake up now before it is too late!!
Enemies, foreign and domestic
Mike #10 Your post is deeply disturbing. If you can and feel it safe to do so , please keep us informed about what action has been taken and what has been the response. If the report can be confirmed by other parents, especially with children in other classes and other schools, then the Thailand has truly entered the realms of the Third Reich.
The king and facebook
10# Some would say that he did say so back then. It’s not definite though.
Enemies, foreign and domestic
The Thai government has now joined other despicable regimes in labelling their political opponents as “terrorists”. Two such regimes that come to mind are Russia (the Chechens) and China (the Uighars)
Nick Nostitz in the killing zone
SimonSays, you won’t go down well here you know. You’ll be accused of being a Nazi or something. Just looking at the approvals and disapprovals of the comments here, its apparent that this blog is clearly not the place to air considered views critical of the Reds’ cause; even to suggest that Thaksin just might be pivotal in this situation could get you slammed. Still, you demonstrate the hypocrisy of those that charge the current government with censorship and corruption. I don’t deny that this government has made mistakes – delaying the break up of the siege was one – but the entire charge against this government does in fact rest upon a denial of Thaksin’s role in the current predicament. If Thaksin is innocent – which he is not (of corruption and human rights abuses, not to mention bank rolling the recent spate of terrorism in Bangkok, however incomparable it is with events in Pakistan, say) – then the case against the legitimacy of this government is surely strengthened. For if Thaksin was illegally or unfairly ousted then the coup and following government can of course be viewed as illegitimate and unjustified. The argument about the righteousness of the Reds’ cause is thus inextricable with Thaksin as you say.
Enemies, foreign and domestic
What’s all this howling and whining at New Mandala about ‘hunting’ and ‘witches’.
Thailand government does not hunt witches. But foreigners like Jeff Savage who incite mobs to burn Bangkok down will be hunted. Any Jeff Savages at New Mandala? If none, then gentlemen you don’t have to worry about a thing.
What next for Thailand?
Stuart:
I take no issue with the merits of your argument. I am sure you always make perfect arguments. What I find offensive about your comment is it tone. And tone is very important because it incites emotions for better or worse. In your case, it seems you intend to be mean.
You could have chosen more neutral language to make your points but you chose not to. Rather than say Thailand has a flawed education system because its teachers are bad, you choose to say: “It will take removal or retraining of 80% of teachers in Thailand because they are largely incompetent to teach.” Where do you come up with this stuff? And rather than say Thais have difficulty seeing pass recent events, you choose to say, “the short attention-span of Thais and their inherent lack of respect for the rule of law.” Who are you to say any particular trait is inherit to a certain people? That’s like saying Africans are inherently barbaric and ungovernable. You’re a small-minded individual if you expect me to have an “objective discussion” with you after you spew such garbage.
Your tone betrays your attitude, which judging from other gems you’ve posted on this blog is one that condescends and belittles Thais and Thailand. It is offensive but maybe you mean to offend.
Here’s another one of your gems:
“What would happen if western influence were to disappear overnight, western countries and the western people you hate stopped buying Thai rice and stopped coming to visit the Thai brothels you populate with the daughters of your uncared-for poor. Thailand would return to the stone age Rose, so keep a civil tongue in your uneducated and foul-mouthed head. Oh, and try to get a clue somewhere would you – if you aren;t sure where to get one, ask a farang.”
Wow, I can’t argue with you how ‘fair and correct’ your statements are here.
Send your suggestions to Abhisit
Non of my business but I agreed with most suggestions to Apisit.
Enemies, foreign and domestic
@ Stuart Goddard @ Mike
“The education of all children, from the moment that they can get along without a mother’s care, shall be in state institutions.”
– Karl Marx
Nick Nostitz in the killing zone
Rebecca # 178.
“This is not about Thaksin and the puppet master” – could you kindly enlighten us as to what ‘this’ really is about then?
How can a movement that supports Thaksin be ‘democratic’ and ‘populist’?
“It’s so easy to put some trained military snipers in black or red shirts and let them play the role of the bad guys.” – Are you suggesting they were government ‘agents’ planted into the red shirt movement to discredit it? Almost as absurd as the conspiracy theory that says the 9/11 attacks were created by the Bush regime.
“a much larger Thai population group whose lunch are no Sushi at Fuji, Secret Recipe cakes, Starbucks coffee and that they are discriminated to a degree that it’s simply shocking” – are you suggesting economic growth in Thailand is a negative thing? Are you even suggesting that there are no Mcdonald’s, Fuji restaurants, Starbucks cafes in the north and north east of Thailand. Absolute pap!!
And what is your sneering disdain for the Thai middle class anyway? Furthermore, your attitude reeks of post-colinail disdain – one that says, ‘Thais in fact don’t deserve Fuji resaurants, or Starbucks, or secret recipe cakes – they should all be the ‘happy harmonious Buddhsits’ with no need of a material reality. How na├пve!!
“To actually be able to see that there is extreme injustice, double standards and hypocrisy you first should realize that the hierarchical social structure, educational system and cultural background grants the leaders the right to abuse and fill their own pockets, since democracy was introduced to Thailand.” – As you are evidently pro-red, you are also pro-Thaksin, whether you like this fact or not.
And the Thaksin model fits in with ‘extreme injustice, double standards and hypocrisy’ you describe.
From ‘A New Mandala’ itself (the blog we are on):
“Election is not rightful when the law must be manipulated first to get the winning party out of the way.” From this very site itself: There is much talk of vote buying in relation to Thailand’s political crisis. Hard evidence is hard to come by but dark rumours persist of electoral handouts in return for votes. Well, New Mandala has some firm evidence due to the eagle eye of Nich Farrelly. Have a look at these snaps from the February 2005 election campaign. Political corruption at its worst – promises of free health care, 1200 baht per month bribes for senior citizens, slush funds for farmers, cash for local volunteers. And more! Yet another electoral outrage!”
Here: http://www.newmandala.org/wp-content/uploads/2006/09/votebuying1.jpg
And here: http://www.newmandala.org/wp-content/uploads/2006/09/votebuying2.jpg
[Hi Simonsays – I think you may have missed the point of these images and the post. Look which parties the images are referring to. AW]
“It’s so easy to brainwash people just indoctrinate them with the concept of an enemy and make them feel better (we the peaceful, educated and good deserve to be privileged ), they actually dance then to any tune. This concept has worked then, still works today – all over this globe. Dividing countries, cities and even neighborhoods.” – Indeed Rebecca! Indeed! And thus we have the ‘Red Shirt movement’ and its armed & terrorist wing ‘the black shirts’!!
The king and facebook
Cazique, so the “Tell me how I should change” quote was an paraphrase of the 2005 speech.
Did the King also say it (or something like it) back in 70’s as well?
Send your suggestions to Abhisit
I have a sugestion to Ahbisit – Figure out why you can’t sleep at night, then work on a solution with some honest psychiatrist.
Apply that solution to your govt. Presto – a new Thailand
Nick Nostitz in the killing zone
Michael #186.
Are you denying the red shirts had an armed militia?
You say: “The fact is we just don’t know.”
The fact is, yes we do know!
If there’s one ‘farang’ who would know, that would be Nick Nostitz. In his own words:
“This was a most terrifying experience. Presently i am far more scared
of the soldiers than of the “Guys in Black” (yes – they are existing)
who i had a brief encounter with the night before. One of them asked me
politely not to take any images of him, and then walked off into no
man’s land, a grenade launcher hidden under his jacket, not too long
after followed by automatic rifle fire and several grenade blasts into
the direction of the military.”
Enemies, foreign and domestic
Mr. V.
If you want verification then I suggest you read page two of the Bangkok Post. “Education authorities revise school curricula” by Sirikul Bunnag.
I’m not going to quote the whole article, just the first paragraph: “The Basic Education Commission is planning to place an added emphasis on unity, loyalty to the royal institution and democracy in school curriculums in the wake of the political turmoil.”
They go on to state these will be “improvements”, so they admit brainwashing at schools has already taken place. And who controls the content of these new “improvements”, none other than the fox in charge of the chicken coup.
The Thai education system is desolate.
Roger
Chula academics call for “return of justice and academic freedom”
TE/re-Apichatpong: QUOTE “Thailand is a violent country; it’s (now) controlled by a group of mafia” UNQUOTE
р╣Др╕Чр╕вр╣Ар╕Ыр╣Зр╕Щр╕Ыр╕гр╕░р╣Ар╕Чр╕ир╕Чр╕╡р╣Ир╣Ар╕Хр╣Зр╕бр╣Др╕Ыр╕Фр╣Йр╕зр╕вр╕Др╕зр╕▓р╕бр╕гр╕╕р╕Щр╣Бр╕гр╕З р╣Бр╕ер╕░р╕Цр╕╣р╕Бр╕Ыр╕Бр╕Др╕гр╕нр╕Зр╣Вр╕Фр╕вр╕Бр╕ер╕╕р╣Ир╕бр╕бр╕▓р╣Ар╕Яр╕╡р╕в’-р╕нр╕ар╕┤р╕Кр╕▓р╕Хр╕┤р╕Юр╕Зр╕ир╣М р╕зр╕╡р╕гр╕░р╣Ар╕ир╕гр╕йр╕Рр╕Бр╕╕р╕е р╕Ьр╕╣р╣Йр╕Кр╕Щр╕░р╕гр╕▓р╕Зр╕зр╕▒р╕ер╕ар╕▓р╕Юр╕вр╕Щр╕Хр╕гр╣Мр╣Ар╕бр╕╖р╕нр╕Зр╕Др╕▓р╕Щр╕кр╣М
Enemies, foreign and domestic
I enclose an excellent paper published on May 12/2010 by the weekly Newspaper “Weltwoche” and which a clear analysis how the monarchy evolutes. Maybe somebody is willing to translate
THE KING’S MOST DANGEROUS FRIEND
[If you send a link we will post the link, not the full article. AW]
Enemies, foreign and domestic
Foreign Enemies?
Well there’s always been that touch of nationalism in Thai politics . Having a Brit and Australian under arrest will help it a bit more. Mind you, the real expert on using this is Thaksin. Do you remember the anti-IMF part of his first TRT election campaign? Of course Chuan had already made most of the changes the IMF asked for and Thaksin didn’t really need to do anything different. Still it became a pretty intense anti-foreigner feeling for a while, most noticeable when having to deal with civil servants.
Enemies, foreign and domestic
About political brainwashing in primary school, my aunt and her friends are yellowism teacher. Last 4 years she showed me Thai language examination paper which issued by her friend. Everything in the paper were all about red and yellow ideological but applied as Thai grammar questions, for grade 5 students.
The king and facebook
#7
I do not have a definitive source, but I have read several forum posts regarding Pramote’s interview given to either the Nation or ASTV after the quote became famous. He personally said that the quote was definitely not recent.
http://teenoireturns.freeforums.org/topic-t203.html
This is another piece of evidence which pretty much confirmed my understanding. According to a post there, Pramote did mention there was a misunderstanding, that the statement was more or less an extrapolation of the King’s birthday speech on 4th December, 2005.
If I recall correctly, the King stated pretty clearly (which is actually uncharacteristic of him who normally excels at making vague comments) that he would tolerate criticisms.