3BB in Chiang Mai the link you posted is blocked.
Same as BKKlawyer , a blank page
Thai political prisoners has also been blocked (could access last week).
Message on some pages, total blank on others for that site.
@ Andrew Walker. I can’t see any statistical evidence in the latest UNDP Human Development Report that supports the main thesis of your WSJ article that red shirts are justified in being angry, despite now being fairly well off middle income peasants, due to deteriorating income equality relative to other countries in the region.
Your ignorance is a tad embarrassing . Perhaps you should do some research on Andrew before posting comments above. In particular:
‘But their vote was bought by money. Do you know how this works in Thailand? Of course you wouldn’t because you’re not a local.’
Perhaps you would care to know that Andrew has spent years working as an anthropologist in rural Thailand, amongst other things, researching precisely the issue you have raised above. If you have the time and intellectual honesty, why not try reading his article on ‘Thailand’s rural constitution’. It is available online, and is referenced positively in virtually all subsequent Thai academic literature on the issue.
The assuption that foreigners cannot understand Thailand is just epistemologically bankrupt. Why cant they? How can you demonstrate this? As other posters are beginning to suggest, it may well be the fact that indeed foreigners have a distance from Thai culture that allows for greater objectivity and curiosity that for those ‘insiders’. This is worth teasing out in more detail…
Jit has made several good points in his comments that others seem to have missed or simply ignored. I would like to expand on these, adding my own thoughts in two areas:
First, the explanation that a “loss of faith in the electoral process” was behind the Red’s refusal to accept Abhisit’s road map and 14 November elections is unconvincing to me. To accept this begs the question of what exactly the UDD leadership were expecting to accomplish when they launched their protests, given their publicly stated demands (initially) for immediate dissolution of parliament and new elections. These demands were patently not actionable: no government would simply accept them without some compromise, so everyone expected a negotiated settlement. But even if these demands had been met, surely a Red-led government resulting from elections earlier than 14 November could also be overturned by politicized courts or a military coup, so how would this outcome have restored the Red’s lost faith in the electoral process in a way that elections in November could not?
It seems more likely that only two outcomes were ever envisioned as possible by the UDD leadership (and as we have seen, the leaders were not actually united in their goals): (1) a negotiated compromise solution leading to new elections later this year plus unconditional immunity for Thaksin – the latter being the widely rumored sticking point at every stage of negotiations – or (2) violence, bloodshed, and promise of future anarchy as punishment to opponents of UDD and Thaksin, including various commercial interests generally aligned with the Democrats (among these, Bangkok Bank, Central Group, and others whose facilities were shuttered or put to the torch).
The fact that inflammatory rhetoric and actions, such as the blood tossing episode and vows of fighting to the death, actually preceded the tragic events of 10 April (with deadly violence initiated by men in black behind the red lines) seems, in retrospect, not just to have presaged the latest bloodshed and arson, but to have been carefully planned as both warning to the government and preparation of the rank and file protesters in the event negotiations failed to produce a settlement meeting with Thaksin’s approval. General Khattiya (Seh Daeng) publicly stated that Thaksin refused Abhisit’s road map and denounced Veera and others who were inclined to accept the offer.
Time will tell the real extent to which faith in the electoral process has been lost, assuming Abhisit sticks to his pledge of following the road map, but I don’t believe the theory has really been put to the test yet. Thaksin’s agents saw to that.
Da Torpedo is neither a Bhumibolist or a Royalist. But most reds on the ground are Bhumbolists. I saw a moustached man with an old army jacket and long hair and a beret waving a red flag with a portrait of Che on it. We chatted and I subtly probed his views on the monarchy, thinking that this man was most obviously a republican revolutionary. Instead, he pointed to his beret: on it was the royal seal. “Thailand is nothing without our royal father,” he said with what seemed Luke sincerity. In Thailand even the revolutionaries can love Bhumibol.
“They are doing this because they now see the real, ever-closer danger that their “Thailand’ is going to break up. I.e. Lanna and Isaarn are going to break free.”
I wish that were really on the cards, I really do, but I doubt it, the difficulties would just be too onerous.
I do think however that the rice farmers in Issaan and the north, ought to show their displeasure at the government by simply refusing to sell their rice to the government, nor to any company that supports, has contributed to or has influence with the government.
Nor indeed to any of the bandit middle-men that have been fleecing them for decades. A partial return to barter perhaps, with closer links to Lao and Cambodia.
Nothing will hurt the amart more than hitting them in the wallet. Take their rice-bowl away and don’t give it back until they learn to behave properly.
I suspect the government would be in serious trouble.
“They are doing this because they now see the real, ever-closer danger that their “Thailand’ is going to break up. I.e. Lanna and Isaarn are going to break free.”
I wish that were really on the cards, I really do, but I doubt it, the consequences would just be too onerous.
I do think however that the rice farmers in Issaan and the north, ought to show their displeasure at the government by simply refusing to sell their rice to the government, nor to any company that supports, has contributed or has influence with the government.
Nor indeed to any of the bandit middle-men that have been fleecing them for decades. A partial return to barter perhaps, with closer links to Lao and Cambodia.
Nothing will hurt the amart more than hitting them in the wallet. Take their rice-bowl away and don’t give it back until they learn to behave properly.
Re: Thongchai’s view that “Thaksin is smart enough to see the benefits of ending the protest and too high a risk to continue.”
The latest article from The Economist has following views on Thaksin’s role in the peacetalks:
1. “As the bullets flew and the bodies fell, crocodile tears came from afar, as Mr Thaksin tweeted his sorrow to his followers. From his luxurious exile he denied, once again, that he was giving orders to the red-shirt leaders and urged everyone to embrace peace. There is little doubt, however, that Mr Thaksin holds sway over the splintered, squabbling red-shirt leadership. The two-month protest would not have been possible without his deep pockets, vengeful will and political network, even though the red-shirt cause has become much larger than him. And his stubbornness seems to have undone the peace talks, despite his protestations.”
2. “Many are asking why peace talks failed, when the red shirts had little hope of resisting the troops. Insiders say that Mr Thaksin was a serious spoiler, as were General Khattiya and other radicals.”
3. “That the leaders of the United Front for Democracy against Dictatorship (UDD), the red shirts’ formal title, failed to grasp this olive branch [Abhisit’s roadmap] is tragic. They, as much as trigger-happy soldiers, must bear some responsibility for the lives lost.”
4. “When the UDD called for the United Nations to step into the crisis, Mr Kasit retorted that Thailand was “not a failed state”. That is true. But if it does become ungovernable, the fault will not be Mr Thaksin’s alone. Equally culpable is the royalist PAD that Mr Kasit belongs to.”
Just to clarify something to my previous post – the green fern was the picture of choice used by the government before the current crisis. The red message is obviously more recent and cites as follows:
Thanks for all of these rapid and helpful comments:
There now seems little doubt that, for the first time as far as I know, a page of New Mandala is consistently unavailable via (at least some) Thailand-based ISPs. Thanks to everyone who has provided their information and feedback. If anybody out there discerns other relevant details then please feel free to add them to this thread.
In particular, information about other sites/pages that are being blocked (particularly for the first time) is very welcome.
Chakrism is a fundamentalist religion replete with its sacred claims, unquestionable truths, rigid adherence, apostates, heretics, and violent enforcement by true believers.
I don’t think I’m the first to compare the Thai attacks on the foreign press with Muslim attacks on those who draw cartoons of the prophet. If you doubt the analogy, think of the verbal attacks on the Thai restaurant in the US that used a cartoon of the King several years ago, the various embassyies assailing any slight (apparently using the Iran model), or just imagine standing in downtown Bangkok with a critical cartoon of the old guy.
Bhumibolism seems like an accidental sect, or cult that has gained so much power it has cannibalized Chakrism and linked a long-term plan with a short-term guy. Turning this cult back into a country (and hopefully a democratic one) is the single biggest challenge facing Thailand.
I usually post under a different name, but this issue scares me so much I need to use an alias for my alias, even though I’m not in Thailand. Sounds like the cartoons of the prophet all over again.
I got the same message in red yesterday when I tried to access a jazz blog site yesterday, although it has since cleared.
Some used to condider jazz subversive, devil’s music etc. etc.
Now NM! Whatever next?
I can access all of the site here in Bkk.
An alternative ‘message’ I have seen is a small picture of a green fern frond, yes the plant, situated in the top left of the screen. I got this when I tried to find some phots. and other links posted here and elsewhere.
Nicholas,
Political Prisoners in Thailand has been blocked by the ICT Ministry which means there is no court order, just the minister deciding in her infinite wisdom (even though she can’t understand English) that Thais are not educated enough to make up their own mind.
Roger
That link in #4 is blocked by TOT here in Nara. It redirects to http://118.175.8.61/ and gives a notification from one ICT. I have screencaps with time/date if anyone needs.
That was a thought-provoking article. Funny they’d block it…
Oh yes I was around then too. Now I thought the DP was in trouble back then for two reasons. First it was getting the blame for the Asian economic crisis and bringing in the IMF. Second there was a terrible smell of the corruption involving their Phuket members that was even staining the Mr. Clean image of Chuan. It sounds funny now, but it did allow Thaksin to run on an anti-corruption campaign.
BTW Nuomi I was one of those that was half prepared to see a Thai version of Lee Kuan Yew. I must have been mad to think Thaksin could keep his hands out of the pot.
So to keep the analogy going what did the Volvo engine run on? Lots and lots of expensive high octane leaded benzine I’m afraid. They hadn’t changed over to B5 to save the planet.
Nicholas,
I am with True, so far none of the articles have been blocked, however when I click on “this” I get an internal server error. The only problem I have is with New Mandala being very slow to load at times.
To call the provision of cheap healthcare and education by elected government communism is a grave misunderstanding. In Thailand’s instance, the majority of the voters have expressed their wish to have those policies carried out under the Thaksin and Samak administration. What else could the government do but to implement those schemes now that the mandate was firmly with them?
Such actions can only be deemed communism only when they are carried out without consulting the populace first. e.g. former Soviet Union, Cuba, and North Korea. For some other countries, socialist governments currently dominate following electoral victories. The majority of Latin American countries (sans Colombia) and Moldova, would qualify under this label.
My point is, if socialist-leaning (or communist, as you prefer to call them) policies are carried out by democratically-elected goverment who were grant proper mandate, then so be it. For those who dislike the way they are being treated by the government, there will always be the next election!
P.S. I am a middle-class red shirt supporter, hence my opinion may sound biased to most of the Thais here!
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New Mandala “temporarily curtailed”?
3BB in Chiang Mai the link you posted is blocked.
Same as BKKlawyer , a blank page
Thai political prisoners has also been blocked (could access last week).
Message on some pages, total blank on others for that site.
Commentary on roots of the Thai crisis
@ Andrew Walker. I can’t see any statistical evidence in the latest UNDP Human Development Report that supports the main thesis of your WSJ article that red shirts are justified in being angry, despite now being fairly well off middle income peasants, due to deteriorating income equality relative to other countries in the region.
Commentary on roots of the Thai crisis
Dear Meeng (#26)
Your ignorance is a tad embarrassing . Perhaps you should do some research on Andrew before posting comments above. In particular:
‘But their vote was bought by money. Do you know how this works in Thailand? Of course you wouldn’t because you’re not a local.’
Perhaps you would care to know that Andrew has spent years working as an anthropologist in rural Thailand, amongst other things, researching precisely the issue you have raised above. If you have the time and intellectual honesty, why not try reading his article on ‘Thailand’s rural constitution’. It is available online, and is referenced positively in virtually all subsequent Thai academic literature on the issue.
The assuption that foreigners cannot understand Thailand is just epistemologically bankrupt. Why cant they? How can you demonstrate this? As other posters are beginning to suggest, it may well be the fact that indeed foreigners have a distance from Thai culture that allows for greater objectivity and curiosity that for those ‘insiders’. This is worth teasing out in more detail…
Commentary on roots of the Thai crisis
Jit has made several good points in his comments that others seem to have missed or simply ignored. I would like to expand on these, adding my own thoughts in two areas:
First, the explanation that a “loss of faith in the electoral process” was behind the Red’s refusal to accept Abhisit’s road map and 14 November elections is unconvincing to me. To accept this begs the question of what exactly the UDD leadership were expecting to accomplish when they launched their protests, given their publicly stated demands (initially) for immediate dissolution of parliament and new elections. These demands were patently not actionable: no government would simply accept them without some compromise, so everyone expected a negotiated settlement. But even if these demands had been met, surely a Red-led government resulting from elections earlier than 14 November could also be overturned by politicized courts or a military coup, so how would this outcome have restored the Red’s lost faith in the electoral process in a way that elections in November could not?
It seems more likely that only two outcomes were ever envisioned as possible by the UDD leadership (and as we have seen, the leaders were not actually united in their goals): (1) a negotiated compromise solution leading to new elections later this year plus unconditional immunity for Thaksin – the latter being the widely rumored sticking point at every stage of negotiations – or (2) violence, bloodshed, and promise of future anarchy as punishment to opponents of UDD and Thaksin, including various commercial interests generally aligned with the Democrats (among these, Bangkok Bank, Central Group, and others whose facilities were shuttered or put to the torch).
The fact that inflammatory rhetoric and actions, such as the blood tossing episode and vows of fighting to the death, actually preceded the tragic events of 10 April (with deadly violence initiated by men in black behind the red lines) seems, in retrospect, not just to have presaged the latest bloodshed and arson, but to have been carefully planned as both warning to the government and preparation of the rank and file protesters in the event negotiations failed to produce a settlement meeting with Thaksin’s approval. General Khattiya (Seh Daeng) publicly stated that Thaksin refused Abhisit’s road map and denounced Veera and others who were inclined to accept the offer.
Time will tell the real extent to which faith in the electoral process has been lost, assuming Abhisit sticks to his pledge of following the road map, but I don’t believe the theory has really been put to the test yet. Thaksin’s agents saw to that.
New Mandala “temporarily curtailed”?
[…] the Abhisit government. Prachatai keeps getting blocked, and it is hardly radical. New Mandala is also blocked by […]
On Bhumibolists and Royalists
Da Torpedo is neither a Bhumibolist or a Royalist. But most reds on the ground are Bhumbolists. I saw a moustached man with an old army jacket and long hair and a beret waving a red flag with a portrait of Che on it. We chatted and I subtly probed his views on the monarchy, thinking that this man was most obviously a republican revolutionary. Instead, he pointed to his beret: on it was the royal seal. “Thailand is nothing without our royal father,” he said with what seemed Luke sincerity. In Thailand even the revolutionaries can love Bhumibol.
New Mandala “temporarily curtailed”?
@Chris Beale ┬г26:
“They are doing this because they now see the real, ever-closer danger that their “Thailand’ is going to break up. I.e. Lanna and Isaarn are going to break free.”
I wish that were really on the cards, I really do, but I doubt it, the difficulties would just be too onerous.
I do think however that the rice farmers in Issaan and the north, ought to show their displeasure at the government by simply refusing to sell their rice to the government, nor to any company that supports, has contributed to or has influence with the government.
Nor indeed to any of the bandit middle-men that have been fleecing them for decades. A partial return to barter perhaps, with closer links to Lao and Cambodia.
Nothing will hurt the amart more than hitting them in the wallet. Take their rice-bowl away and don’t give it back until they learn to behave properly.
I suspect the government would be in serious trouble.
New Mandala “temporarily curtailed”?
@Chris Beale ┬г26:
“They are doing this because they now see the real, ever-closer danger that their “Thailand’ is going to break up. I.e. Lanna and Isaarn are going to break free.”
I wish that were really on the cards, I really do, but I doubt it, the consequences would just be too onerous.
I do think however that the rice farmers in Issaan and the north, ought to show their displeasure at the government by simply refusing to sell their rice to the government, nor to any company that supports, has contributed or has influence with the government.
Nor indeed to any of the bandit middle-men that have been fleecing them for decades. A partial return to barter perhaps, with closer links to Lao and Cambodia.
Nothing will hurt the amart more than hitting them in the wallet. Take their rice-bowl away and don’t give it back until they learn to behave properly.
The government would be in real trouble.
On Bhumibolists and Royalists
Oh my Buddha – not another invitation to bash the Crown Prince.
Give the man break !!
Commentary on roots of the Thai crisis
Re: Thongchai’s view that “Thaksin is smart enough to see the benefits of ending the protest and too high a risk to continue.”
The latest article from The Economist has following views on Thaksin’s role in the peacetalks:
1. “As the bullets flew and the bodies fell, crocodile tears came from afar, as Mr Thaksin tweeted his sorrow to his followers. From his luxurious exile he denied, once again, that he was giving orders to the red-shirt leaders and urged everyone to embrace peace. There is little doubt, however, that Mr Thaksin holds sway over the splintered, squabbling red-shirt leadership. The two-month protest would not have been possible without his deep pockets, vengeful will and political network, even though the red-shirt cause has become much larger than him. And his stubbornness seems to have undone the peace talks, despite his protestations.”
2. “Many are asking why peace talks failed, when the red shirts had little hope of resisting the troops. Insiders say that Mr Thaksin was a serious spoiler, as were General Khattiya and other radicals.”
3. “That the leaders of the United Front for Democracy against Dictatorship (UDD), the red shirts’ formal title, failed to grasp this olive branch [Abhisit’s roadmap] is tragic. They, as much as trigger-happy soldiers, must bear some responsibility for the lives lost.”
4. “When the UDD called for the United Nations to step into the crisis, Mr Kasit retorted that Thailand was “not a failed state”. That is true. But if it does become ungovernable, the fault will not be Mr Thaksin’s alone. Equally culpable is the royalist PAD that Mr Kasit belongs to.”
http://www.economist.com/displaystory.cfm?story_id=16168127
New Mandala “temporarily curtailed”?
Just to clarify something to my previous post – the green fern was the picture of choice used by the government before the current crisis. The red message is obviously more recent and cites as follows:
Access to this information. Suspended temporarily
By virtue.
Emergency Decree on Public Administration.
In emergency situations, BE 2548.
The command center of the emergency situation.
New Mandala “temporarily curtailed”?
Thanks for all of these rapid and helpful comments:
There now seems little doubt that, for the first time as far as I know, a page of New Mandala is consistently unavailable via (at least some) Thailand-based ISPs. Thanks to everyone who has provided their information and feedback. If anybody out there discerns other relevant details then please feel free to add them to this thread.
In particular, information about other sites/pages that are being blocked (particularly for the first time) is very welcome.
Best wishes to all,
Nich
On Bhumibolists and Royalists
Chakrism is a fundamentalist religion replete with its sacred claims, unquestionable truths, rigid adherence, apostates, heretics, and violent enforcement by true believers.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamentalism
I don’t think I’m the first to compare the Thai attacks on the foreign press with Muslim attacks on those who draw cartoons of the prophet. If you doubt the analogy, think of the verbal attacks on the Thai restaurant in the US that used a cartoon of the King several years ago, the various embassyies assailing any slight (apparently using the Iran model), or just imagine standing in downtown Bangkok with a critical cartoon of the old guy.
Bhumibolism seems like an accidental sect, or cult that has gained so much power it has cannibalized Chakrism and linked a long-term plan with a short-term guy. Turning this cult back into a country (and hopefully a democratic one) is the single biggest challenge facing Thailand.
I usually post under a different name, but this issue scares me so much I need to use an alias for my alias, even though I’m not in Thailand. Sounds like the cartoons of the prophet all over again.
New Mandala “temporarily curtailed”?
I got the same message in red yesterday when I tried to access a jazz blog site yesterday, although it has since cleared.
Some used to condider jazz subversive, devil’s music etc. etc.
Now NM! Whatever next?
I can access all of the site here in Bkk.
An alternative ‘message’ I have seen is a small picture of a green fern frond, yes the plant, situated in the top left of the screen. I got this when I tried to find some phots. and other links posted here and elsewhere.
New Mandala “temporarily curtailed”?
Nicholas,
Political Prisoners in Thailand has been blocked by the ICT Ministry which means there is no court order, just the minister deciding in her infinite wisdom (even though she can’t understand English) that Thais are not educated enough to make up their own mind.
Roger
New Mandala “temporarily curtailed”?
That link in #4 is blocked by TOT here in Nara. It redirects to http://118.175.8.61/ and gives a notification from one ICT. I have screencaps with time/date if anyone needs.
That was a thought-provoking article. Funny they’d block it…
Too many eggs in the royal basket
Nuomi – 21
Oh yes I was around then too. Now I thought the DP was in trouble back then for two reasons. First it was getting the blame for the Asian economic crisis and bringing in the IMF. Second there was a terrible smell of the corruption involving their Phuket members that was even staining the Mr. Clean image of Chuan. It sounds funny now, but it did allow Thaksin to run on an anti-corruption campaign.
BTW Nuomi I was one of those that was half prepared to see a Thai version of Lee Kuan Yew. I must have been mad to think Thaksin could keep his hands out of the pot.
So to keep the analogy going what did the Volvo engine run on? Lots and lots of expensive high octane leaded benzine I’m afraid. They hadn’t changed over to B5 to save the planet.
New Mandala “temporarily curtailed”?
Nicholas,
I am with True, so far none of the articles have been blocked, however when I click on “this” I get an internal server error. The only problem I have is with New Mandala being very slow to load at times.
New Mandala “temporarily curtailed”?
Location Central Bangkok.
ISP: TOT
Partial block for New Mandala (http://118.175.8.61/ block, This website has been blocked by ICT)
Thai Political Prisoners took forever to be blocked anyway. 🙂
(http://118.175.8.61/ block, This website has been blocked by ICT)
20 May 1992
K. Benja,
To call the provision of cheap healthcare and education by elected government communism is a grave misunderstanding. In Thailand’s instance, the majority of the voters have expressed their wish to have those policies carried out under the Thaksin and Samak administration. What else could the government do but to implement those schemes now that the mandate was firmly with them?
Such actions can only be deemed communism only when they are carried out without consulting the populace first. e.g. former Soviet Union, Cuba, and North Korea. For some other countries, socialist governments currently dominate following electoral victories. The majority of Latin American countries (sans Colombia) and Moldova, would qualify under this label.
My point is, if socialist-leaning (or communist, as you prefer to call them) policies are carried out by democratically-elected goverment who were grant proper mandate, then so be it. For those who dislike the way they are being treated by the government, there will always be the next election!
P.S. I am a middle-class red shirt supporter, hence my opinion may sound biased to most of the Thais here!